Topic: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series - MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS

[owens_2k]

Interesting series of questions and answers in that thread. I must have missed that she thinks the killer planted the blood in the RAV4, not the police.

Hence my previous post!

[nozza]

Both 100 percent innocent for me. Avery's as much accepted he wont be getting out by the way he talks, Dassey still clinging to hope. I fear whatever evidence Zellner finds at this point its getting futile. After the 7th district court turned over its own decision it looks nearly impossible to get them free.
 
Astounding that the system allows this to happen. It just seems utterly vindictive that the state appealed and can just keep these men locked up.

Tragic for all involved.

[Phil M]

Both 100 percent innocent for me.

Start here: http://stevenaverycase.com/

Then report back and let us know if you're still so sure about it.

[Kashinoda]

Start here: http://stevenaverycase.com/

Then report back and let us know if you're still so sure about it.

And this is what I was talking about earlier in the thread when I said the documentary loses all credibility by having an agenda.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Start here: http://stevenaverycase.com/

Then report back and let us know if you're still so sure about it.

So Phil M. 

Grateful for the link, but it is not clear who established the website or who is in charge of updating it.

One of the very important parts of synthesizing information (disparate) is knowing where the information is coming from and who is in charge of correcting it or adding to it.   Not clear here. 

Any help?

[Trendisnotdestiny]

And this is what I was talking about earlier in the thread when I said the documentary loses all credibility by having an agenda.

Actually, I do not agree. 

Having an agenda just means you have to take the agenda into account.   

The worst kind of credibility is one that postures as neutral but secretly acts in their own interest.  Power that is bestowed onto a group based upon their position and duty in the society with an expectation of neutrality --- and then come to find out that they really are not neutral at all.







This is not contained to rural Wisconsin - this has been a consistent thread throughout time.

Look at Brendan Dassey's first lawyer who kind of laughs about this now --- like its no big deal

[Phil M]

So Phil M. 

Grateful for the link, but it is not clear who established the website or who is in charge of updating it.

Unsure, here's another:  http://www.stevenaverycase.org/

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/about/

[Kashinoda]

Actually, I do not agree. 

Having an agenda just means you have to take the agenda into account.   

The worst kind of credibility is one that postures as neutral but secretly acts in their own interest.  Power that is bestowed onto a group based upon their position and duty in the society with an expectation of neutrality --- and then come to find out that they really are not neutral at all.

This is not contained to rural Wisconsin - this has been a consistent thread throughout time.

Look at Brendan Dassey's first lawyer who kind of laughs about this now --- like its no big deal

To criticise the credibility of the film maker doesn't in turn exonerate the credibility of the police force and those connected, I'm not saying that.

But them being incompetent, negligent and arguably unlawful in their approach does not grant the film maker more creative liberties with the truth. If you're emphasising his innocence due to tampered blood vials, when there's actually nothing out of the ordinary, then you're incompetent and lack any credibility in what you're trying to achieve.

[Alan_X]

Start here: http://stevenaverycase.com/

Then report back and let us know if you're still so sure about it.

All dealt with in the latest series. Watch the latest programmes and get back to me.

[Phil M]

All dealt with in the latest series. Watch the latest programmes and get back to me.

I have Alan. It was fascinating in parts but the latest series didn't/hasn't proven anything other than produce some speculation regarding a possible conspiracy by the police planting evidence etc.

Kathleen Zellner has not proved anything yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm all for the truth either way. I'm not here beating a drum that SA is guilty or BD should be released etc.

The site link I posted above is an excellent resource with all the case files and various docs/links etc. Worth a read.

It gave me a more balanced perspective on the events anyway.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Unsure, here's another:  http://www.stevenaverycase.org/

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/about/

Yep appreciate it... will take a look.

I will say that anonymous sources of information and donation like these two sites, do make it appear to be legitimate without offering much to who controls them.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

To criticise the credibility of the film maker doesn't in turn exonerate the credibility of the police force and those connected, I'm not saying that.

But them being incompetent, negligent and arguably unlawful in their approach does not grant the film maker more creative liberties with the truth. If you're emphasising his innocence due to tampered blood vials, when there's actually nothing out of the ordinary, then you're incompetent and lack any credibility in what you're trying to achieve.

Credibility of the filmmaker was never the issue Kashinoda until you mentioned their bias.  My comment has to do with the fact when someone outs their biases for all to see --- it does not diminish their credibility, but it does mean that they have a standard that must be met beyond the bias.

My point is that it is much more problematic to influence a person/the public when there are claims of a lack of bias.  We are all biased by information we receive, and some of us are better at saying we do not know or holding a conclusion until we have a clearer picture. 

I am not convinced the filmmakers are making creative liberties with this.  In fact, I think this whole is being guided by Zellner --- its pretty apparent if you watch season two that she steering this ship and filmmakers are mostly watching. 

Credibility wars conversations are not very interesting either --- who has more etc...

I think Kratz does more each day to destabilize any credibility. 

[Trendisnotdestiny]

I have Alan. It was fascinating in parts but the latest series didn't/hasn't proven anything other than produce some speculation regarding a possible conspiracy by the police planting evidence etc.

Kathleen Zellner has not proved anything yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm all for the truth either way. I'm not here beating a drum that SA is guilty or BD should be released etc.

The site link I posted above is an excellent resource with all the case files and various docs/links etc. Worth a read.

It gave me a more balanced perspective on the events anyway.

This reminds me --- does anyone have the public filing link to the book she made that started all of this move for an evidentiary hearing?

In small towns, the truth is always a little twisted.  Might take some time mate!

The appeals court decision on Dassey, though, is a complete political cock-up --- listening to the court make their comments in the series was excruciating with a few judges.   

[Alan_X]

Unsure, here's another:  http://www.stevenaverycase.org/

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/about/

You should look through the latest evidence submitted by Zellner.

For example: the evidence from Bobby Dassey's internet searches and his interests is absolutely disgusting. He searched for images of underage girls, dismembered bodies, drowned girls, bestiality, torture and rape. There are records of chats he had with 15 year old girls. There are a number of deletions on the Dassey computer that are linked to periods when Theresa Halbach had previously visited the property. Nothing was found on Stephen Avery's computer - no searches for that kind of stuff and no deletions. 

[Phil M]

You should look through the latest evidence submitted by Zellner.

For example: the evidence from Bobby Dassey's internet searches and his interests is absolutely disgusting. He searched for images of underage girls, dismembered bodies, drowned girls, bestiality, torture and rape. There are records of chats he had with 15 year old girls. There are a number of deletions on the Dassey computer that are linked to periods when Theresa Halbach had previously visited the property. Nothing was found on Stephen Avery's computer - no searches for that kind of stuff and no deletions. 

That doesn't prove anything though Alan, as you're well aware other than he is/was a disturbed young man.  There's no concrete proof or physical evidence I'm aware of linking Bobby to the crime.
Suspicious as fuck undoubtedly mind you.

[Alan_X]

I have Alan. It was fascinating in parts but the latest series didn't/hasn't proven anything other than produce some speculation regarding a possible conspiracy by the police planting evidence etc.

Kathleen Zellner has not proved anything yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm all for the truth either way. I'm not here beating a drum that SA is guilty or BD should be released etc.

The site link I posted above is an excellent resource with all the case files and various docs/links etc. Worth a read.

It gave me a more balanced perspective on the events anyway.

She's shown that the bullet was never in contact with bone, human or otherwise. She's shown that the blood spatter in the back of the RAV4 is consistent with someone being hit with a blunt instrument. She's shown that the hood latch could not be the source of the 'hood latch' swab. She's produced witnesses that saw the RAV4 parked on the road including one that reported it to the policeman that called in the plate, model and colour shortly after and the day before the RAV4 appeared on the Avery property. She's shown that the 'burn pit' couldn;t have burned the body as the police claimed.

She's shown that Bobby Dassey was a far more likely suspect based on his obsessions and the inconsistencies in his testimony. He had the opportunity and his perverted obsessions gave him the motive to carry out a sexually motivated murder. The evidence of Bobby Dassey's disturbed mind, including the deletions of files relating to TH's earlier visits to the property, imaged of dead girls, paedophilia, rape etc were all known to the police and were concealed from the defence.

That's not even going near the shambles of Brendan Dassey's 'confession', the complete absence of DNA and blood in the bedroom where Theresa Halbach was raped by two men, was stabbed, had her throat slit, hair cut and was shackled to the bed with handcuffs that had no DNA and left no marks on the bed.

Can you point me to a single piece of evidence that points to the guilt of Stephen Avery beyond doubt? The best there is are the traces of Avery's blood in an otherwise spotless RAV4 and those are more consistent with evidence being planted than deposits from someone in the course of committing the crime. 

[Phil M]

Sorry Alan, I'm not the prosecution. I said above I'm not here to bang a drum either way.

I was following the reddit discussions which someone linked me to and from there saw a link for the SA case sites both of which have a wealth of information.

And the MaM documentaries are unquestionably one-sided. I found them fascinating too, compelling stuff but you need to invest some time (I mean 'you' generally) looking at the case files
and getting a broader overall picture of the case.

Zellner is very impressive but it remains to be seen if the points you brought up above can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt at a re-trial if they ever reach that stage.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

She's shown that the bullet was never in contact with bone, human or otherwise. She's shown that the blood spatter in the back of the RAV4 is consistent with someone being hit with a blunt instrument. She's shown that the hood latch could not be the source of the 'hood latch' swab. She's produced witnesses that saw the RAV4 parked on the road including one that reported it to the policeman that called in the plate, model and colour shortly after and the day before the RAV4 appeared on the Avery property. She's shown that the 'burn pit' couldn;t have burned the body as the police claimed.

She's shown that Bobby Dassey was a far more likely suspect based on his obsessions and the inconsistencies in his testimony. He had the opportunity and his perverted obsessions gave him the motive to carry out a sexually motivated murder. The evidence of Bobby Dassey's disturbed mind, including the deletions of files relating to TH's earlier visits to the property, imaged of dead girls, paedophilia, rape etc were all known to the police and were concealed from the defence.

That's not even going near the shambles of Brendan Dassey's 'confession', the complete absence of DNA and blood in the bedroom where Theresa Halbach was raped by two men, was stabbed, had her throat slit, hair cut and was shackled to the bed with handcuffs that had no DNA and left no marks on the bed.

Can you point me to a single piece of evidence that points to the guilt of Stephen Avery beyond doubt? The best there is are the traces of Avery's blood in an otherwise spotless RAV4 and those are more consistent with evidence being planted than deposits from someone in the course of committing the crime.

This is a crucial point --- as someone disposing of a body with a cut on his finger, you would expect to find:

1.  Mixture of blood/sweat DNA with Halbach-Avery which was non-existent (there wasn't any mixture) - just smears in weirdly located areas that were designed to look relevant (but with the key nook and crany his finger would not have reached the area to smear when turning on the car).  This indicates little compartments of smears which do not explain their theory, but still exist in record.

2. Fingerprints -- none found on the outside or inside of the car, but small blood smatterings at different parts of the car

3.  Blood spattering patterns of Halbach's which are more rounded in the backseat sideboard (which indicates little horizontal velocity) an inconsistent with prosecution's theory for moving a body.

And then when you consider the first place the crime sniffing dogs went to was the area near the quarry where the scent was strongest for them --- and that they found a pelvic bone- cut or mutilated in the same quarry along with a lot of other animal bones would indicate there is much more to this story.

[Qston]

She's shown that the bullet was never in contact with bone, human or otherwise. She's shown that the blood spatter in the back of the RAV4 is consistent with someone being hit with a blunt instrument. She's shown that the hood latch could not be the source of the 'hood latch' swab. She's produced witnesses that saw the RAV4 parked on the road including one that reported it to the policeman that called in the plate, model and colour shortly after and the day before the RAV4 appeared on the Avery property. She's shown that the 'burn pit' couldn;t have burned the body as the police claimed.

She's shown that Bobby Dassey was a far more likely suspect based on his obsessions and the inconsistencies in his testimony. He had the opportunity and his perverted obsessions gave him the motive to carry out a sexually motivated murder. The evidence of Bobby Dassey's disturbed mind, including the deletions of files relating to TH's earlier visits to the property, imaged of dead girls, paedophilia, rape etc were all known to the police and were concealed from the defence.

That's not even going near the shambles of Brendan Dassey's 'confession', the complete absence of DNA and blood in the bedroom where Theresa Halbach was raped by two men, was stabbed, had her throat slit, hair cut and was shackled to the bed with handcuffs that had no DNA and left no marks on the bed.

Can you point me to a single piece of evidence that points to the guilt of Stephen Avery beyond doubt? The best there is are the traces of Avery's blood in an otherwise spotless RAV4 and those are more consistent with evidence being planted than deposits from someone in the course of committing the crime.

There won`t, in this case, be a single piece of evidence that puts it beyond doubt. It is whether the doubt is reasonable. Innocent or guilty, what the documentary has highlighted for me is that there was enough available evidence, or there should have been, to create reasonable doubt.

[west_london_red]

There won`t, in this case, be a single piece of evidence that puts it beyond doubt. It is whether the doubt is reasonable. Innocent or guilty, what the documentary has highlighted for me is that there was enough available evidence, or there should have been, to create reasonable doubt.

There was for me enough reasonable doubt after the first series and trial, the magic key was a big part of the trial and although covered in some detail was never fully explained by the prosecution, the radio message from Fassbender asking about the Rav 4’s license plate, the pelvic bone at the quarry (which I always thought deserves more attention in the first series) and if I remember correctly the delay in finding the bullet in the garage and you already have enough doubt in my mind, then from the second series the face the bullet shows no skull fragments which I would assume is a pretty standard thing for forensic tests to check (unless your trying to hide something) along with the other questions Zellner raises and I think there has to be enough for another trial.

[Phil M]

Thought it was worth posting if anyone finds this interesting:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9vmorg/were_forensic_scientists_ask_us_about/

[red_Mark1980]

I've listened to a couple of episodes of "rebutting a murderer" a podcast that attempts to show how the documentary is flawed.

I'll say this before anything else - I believe on the balance of probability Avery did kill Halbach. Probably. Also I think the police did a number on him.

The podcast is ridiculous. It makes a big thing of the people who initially defend Avery and calling into question his brothers (based on crimes and convictions AFTER avery is charged)  but then takes the word of prisoners who are in jail with Avery on his first conviction as gospel.

I get the feeling the fella is attempting to make some money off the back of it.

If it's already been discussed in here. Apologies

[Barneylfc∗]

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/making-a-murderer-steven-avery-appeal-case-wisconsin-win-lawyer-kathleen-zellner-a8798286.html

Steven Avery, the subject of the Netflixdocumentary Making a Murderer, has won a motion to appeal –  a development hailed by a lawyer as a “big win” in his case.

The motion means that a Wisconsin circuit court will now re-examine the case, as Avery’s attorney Kathleen Zellner claims some evidence has been mishandled by authorities.

Avery, a native of Manitowoc County, Wisconsin, is currently serving a life sentence for the murder of Teresa Halbach, which he says he did not commit.

The motion to appeal, filed by Zellner on Avery’s behalf, makes mention of bones found in a gravel pit, which Zellner wants to be tested to check whether the bones are Halbach’s.

If so, Zellner alleges this would challenge the version of events presented by authorities, according to which Halbach’s remains were buried on Avery’s property.

According to the motion filed by the attorney, the bones were returned to Halbach’s family without being tested for DNA.

Now that the motion has been granted, Avery’s team can submit evidence related to the bones.

The circuit court can grant a new trial, or the case can continue in appellate court, which can also grant a new trial or even reverse the conviction, Zellner told Newsweek.

“Either way, the State opposed this motion and lost,” Zellner added.

“This evidence has the potential to undo the whole case, so it is a big win.”

The attorney tweeted on Monday: "We are going to have an extraordinary number of constitutional violations when we are done. The [court of appeals] is letting us create an avalanche of evidence in this record. Higher courts rule."

The story of Avery's conviction was brought to worldwide attention when Netflix released its documentary series Making a Murderer in December 2015.

A second season followed in October 2018.

[HardworkDedication]

Just finished season 2 and I found it riveting viewing. It has left no doubt in my mind that both Brendan and Steven are innocent. Zellner absolutely picks apart the evidence of the prosecutors. I really hope we see justice not only for the Avery family but for Teresa's family too.

[Pheeny]

If anyone wants to keep up to date with the defence - https://twitter.com/ZellnerLaw

She will also answer question sometimes...

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

https://www.newsweek.com/making-murderer-confession-convicted-wisconsin-murderer-allegedly-confesses-killing-teresa-1460835

Hmmm.

[red_Mark1980]

https://www.newsweek.com/making-murderer-confession-convicted-wisconsin-murderer-allegedly-confesses-killing-teresa-1460835

Hmmm.

As I understand the American justice system, its not that straight forward.

Even if it's credible and even if they convict said person, it's not as easy as a straight forward exoneration.

Happy to stand corrected. Also, is "convicting a murderer" just a season three?

[dudleyred]

As I understand the American justice system, its not that straight forward.

Even if it's credible and even if they convict said person, it's not as easy as a straight forward exoneration.

Happy to stand corrected. Also, is "convicting a murderer" just a season three?

Yes looks like it’s the sequel

“Convicting a Murderer is a 10-part documentary series currently in post-production, according to the Internet Movie Database. The series aims to be a sequel to Making a Murderer, but will include parts the Netflix series left out”

[RSoares21]

Yes looks like it’s the sequel

“Convicting a Murderer is a 10-part documentary series currently in post-production, according to the Internet Movie Database. The series aims to be a sequel to Making a Murderer, but will include parts the Netflix series left out”

It will be interesting to see considering there was a big uproar from the police department saying that quite alot of evidence was left off making a murderer.

[Tonyh8su]

Yes looks like it’s the sequel

“Convicting a Murderer is a 10-part documentary series currently in post-production, according to the Internet Movie Database. The series aims to be a sequel to Making a Murderer, but will include parts the Netflix series left out”

Yeah apparently it's going to be from the side of the prosecution I'm hearing?

[Brian Blessed]

What a great way to get publicity.

[Schmidt]

The guy who just confessed is the same guy who said that Avery confessed to him in prison a couple of years ago. He also sent a copy of his confession to Zellner along with a demand for money, presumably a reward for information. It's bullshit basically.

[markedasred]

What incredible luck to have a confession just before a new series airs. Perfect publicity. They should do the lottery this week.

[owens_2k]

Re-watched this recently.

Upon second watch Zellners scientific tests come across a bit like Mythbusters in a warehouse somewhere.