Topic: Liverpool set to earn more from boxes than seats

[liddellpool]

Soccer-Liverpool set to earn more from boxes than seats
    JOHANNESBURG, Nov 25 (Reuters) - Liverpool will make more
money from corporate boxes than new supporters when they
finally move to their new 60,000-seater stadium in Stanley
Park, the club said on Tuesday.
    Ian Ayre, Liverpool's commercial director, said it was
estimated more than 50 percent of income on match days will
come from the sale of seats in corporate boxes rather than the
increased numbers in mainstream seating.
    The new stadium will increase corporate seating from 3,000
currently at Anfield to 10,000. Liverpool has 40,000 season
ticket holders with a waiting list of a further 65,000.
    "The new stadium is clearly a business opportunity. But it
will be important to maintain the integrity of the Liverpool
brand and fan experience at Anfield," Ayre said during a
seminar on stadium commercial opportunities in Johannesburg.
    Central to the new stadium is the preservation of the
famous Kop, packed each week by home fans.
    It will increase from 12,000 seats to 20,000, around the
same number the Kop attracted when it was standing room only."
    Ayre stood by the club's decision to delay the construction
of the stadium until the global credit crunch eases.
    "It's been a strange period but our decision to delay
construction was certainly the right one," he added. "We have
since seen the costs come down."
 (Reporting by Mark Gleeson; Editing by Martin Petty)

[west_london_red]

So we get a meassley 5,000 extra seats? I bet most of those go to Thomas Cook and the like,

He can shove his 'Liverpool brand and fan experience' where the sun dont shine.

[reddwarf12003]

Whats the point off his comments. till its built they ought to keep quite on the stadium.
The stadium was ment to be built by 2010/11 way things r they wo'nt have even started construction by then.

[oojason]

Is he still peddling the 'credit crunch' as the reason to why G&H haven't built the stadium - shame the fact there was no credit crunch at the time of the stadium being delayed...

Plus, is he that sure that the corporate side of exec boxes and tickets are going to sell out / do very well - there is a credit crunch on after all...

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

If they can't even get the number of season ticket holders right it hardly gives you confidence with the rest of their figures.

However, one thing that is interesting is the note on the price.  Commodity and metal prices are indeed declining quickly around the world as industrial demand drops.  Assuming we get owners with money, or the current financial constraints ease sufficiently for the current owners to raise the money, then it may be that we actually end up building the stadium at a very good time with much reduced costs.

[ttnbd]

Is he still peddling the 'credit crunch' as the reason to why G&H haven't built the stadium - shame the fact there was no credit crunch at the time of the stadium being delayed...

If you fucking believe that then you are seriously deluded.

[oojason]

If you fucking believe that then you are seriously deluded.

There was a credit crunch going on when G&H first announced they were delaying the building of the stadium?

[west_london_red]

If they can't even get the number of season ticket holders right it hardly gives you confidence with the rest of their figures.

However, one thing that is interesting is the note on the price.  Commodity and metal prices are indeed declining quickly around the world as industrial demand drops.  Assuming we get owners with money, or the current financial constraints ease sufficiently for the current owners to raise the money, then it may be that we actually end up building the stadium at a very good time with much reduced costs.

Yeah, the 20,000 kop in a 60,000 seater stadium doesnt make much sense either. That would make the ther 3 stands, especially the replacements for the main and centenry stands no bigger then they are now, if not smaller.

[SheikhMo]

If you fucking believe that then you are seriously deluded.

So there was a credit crunch in 2007 when they took over was there?!?! Why are u always quick to defend them

[Stussy]

I have trouble attaching any credibility to any of their statements. On the basis of this projection, with it being a 60,000 seater and 10,000 corporates, only 6,500 more seats will be available to the public.

Corporates will be the priority, they're going to chase them like nobody else has done before. No mention of any need to balance that with the needs of non-corporates in 'the Anfield match going experience'.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

There was a credit crunch going on when G&H first announced they were delaying the building of the stadium?

Yes. Of course there was.

Yeah, the 20,000 kop in a 60,000 seater stadium doesnt make much sense either. That would make the ther 3 stands, especially the replacements for the main and centenry stands no bigger then they are now, if not smaller.

I thought the plans were initially for 60,000 with a tiny single tier stand opposite the Kop but rising to 70000 with the extension of that stand once planning permission and transport infrastructure were in place.

[west_london_red]

I thought the plans were initially for 60,000 with a tiny single tier stand opposite the Kop but rising to 70000 with the extension of that stand once planning permission and transport infrastructure were in place.

I know there is caveats about the transportation, but surely it would be cheaper to build the whole stadium in one go rather then piece meal?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I have trouble attaching any credibility to any of their statements. On the basis of this projection, with it being a 60,000 seater and 10,000 corporates, only 6,500 more seats will be available to the public.

Corporates will be the priority, they're going to chase them like nobody else has done before. No mention of any need to balance that with the needs of non-corporates in 'the Anfield match going experience'.

I think he did mention the need for balance, not that we should trust him to provide it mind.

You've ignored the 3000 existing corporates, so that makes 9,500 extra "normal" seats, rising to 21,500 extra if the stadium goes to 72,000.

[HarryLabrador]

I know there is caveats about the transportation, but surely it would be cheaper to build the whole stadium in one go rather then piece meal?

WLR, it doesn't matter how they proposed to build it when they never intended to in the first place.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I know there is caveats about the transportation, but surely it would be cheaper to build the whole stadium in one go rather then piece meal?

I think that was the plan - but they could start work based on the lower capacity, then apply for the extension while work was in progress and if successful complete the build to the larger design.

All these plans were from a long time ago so it's unclear if they are still the ones they intend to use.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

WLR, it doesn't matter how they proposed to build it when they never intended to in the first place.

You have no evidence of that. In fact all the evidence points in the other direction.  The new stadium was crucial to their business plans. If they wanted to make a quick buck then the only way to "add value" in the form of the new stadium.  If they were in for the longer haul then the only way to produce the revenue streams they need was to build a new stadium.  They may well not have the clubs best interests at heart, but the new stadium was not only in their best interest it was fundamental to their plans. 

[west_london_red]

WLR, it doesn't matter how they proposed to build it when they never intended to in the first place.

Yes, this is hypothetical to say the least!

[HarryLabrador]

You have no evidence of that, In fact all the evidence points in the other direction.  The new stadium was crucial to their business plans. If they wanted to make a quick buck then the only way to "add value" in the form of the new stadium.  If they were in for the longer haul then the only way to produce the revenue streams they need was to build a new stadium.  They may well not have the clubs best interests at heart, but the new stadium was not only in their best interest it was fundamental to their plans. 

We have to agree to disagree here. Likewise, you have no evidence they 'really' were going to build the stadium. Spade in the ground in 60 days.....no lease signed with LCC to secure Stanley Park for 999 years. Classic con men. Use millions of the club's/RBS money to redesign stadium...all this before the credit crunch. Then the perfect excuse arrived, yes, the dreaded credit crunch! If Hicks didn't have form, such as Corinthians, who never got their promised stadium, then maybe I can perhaps afford them some slack.

[Stussy]

You've ignored the 3000 existing corporates, so that makes 9,500 extra "normal" seats

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out.

It would be nice if Ian Ayre coould actually sit down and answer questions from, say journalists from Liverpool, rather than talking to South African correspondents from Reuters at some conference in Johannesburg, in order for these details to trickle down to us. I can't help feeling that underlying everything, this suspicion of them, comes from a sense that they are being shifty and not talking straight. This kind of detail should have been revealed through the Echo or Daily Post.

[ttnbd]

So there was a credit crunch in 2007 when they took over was there?!?! Why are u always quick to defend them

He never mentioned when they took over.  And would you have been happy just building that original AFL design that couldn't be expanded?

There was a credit crunch going on when G&H first announced they were delaying the building of the stadium?

The credit crunch started hitting the economies in july 2007 at the latest.  That's when the spread between 3 month libor and the bank base rate started widening.  July is when Bear Stearns first made public problems with hedge fund investments.  In April 2007 New Century Financial (a sub-prime lender) filed for Chapter 11.

[WaltonRed]

The Credit Crunch started circa June 2007.  They took over long before then.

The Credit Crunch has effected them massively, as they always tended to build the stadium through debt just as they always intended to buy the club through debt.

The contraction of credit meant that both were no longer possible simultaneously.  And still arent.  IF they had bought the club through cash as they promised then they would have been able to fund the stadium through leveraged finance.  But the sheer amount of borrowing required to fund their debt meant that post June 2007 no bank was ever likely to lend them stadium money on top.

And that will the be the case for some time going forward. 

So long as G&H are at the club the stadium wont happen. 

They know that which is why they are keen to sell.

Unfortunately there are no buyers.

[HarryLabrador]

The Credit Crunch started circa June 2007.  They took over long before then.

The Credit Crunch has effected them massively, as they always tended to build the stadium through debt just as they always intended to buy the club through debt.

The contraction of credit meant that both were no longer possible simultaneously.  And still arent.  IF they had bought the club through cash as they promised then they would have been able to fund the stadium through leveraged finance.  But the sheer amount of borrowing required to fund their debt meant that post June 2007 no bank was ever likely to lend them stadium money on top.

And that will the be the case for some time going forward. 

So long as G&H are at the club the stadium wont happen. 

They know that which is why they are keen to sell.

Unfortunately there are no buyers.

Surely, if they were good business men they should have realised banks would not continue to lend them the kind of money necessary to build a stadium, having bought the club on leveraged loans. The very fact the interest on the loan was rolled over even during the heady days of leverages would have sound out alarm bells to the banks. Building a stadium in England is a great deal more expensive than in the States.

[banksybanks]

it probably doesn't help that they fly people halfway across the world for a bloody conference. Wonder if he went economy?

[reddwarf12003]

Surely if they intent to build it now is the time.

Material costs low, Construction industry desparate for work perfect time to start work,get it built for next to nothing.

Not our lot their going to wait till the credit crunch eases and prices start rising again.
Bright lot r'nt they

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Surely if they intent to build it now is the time.

Material costs low, Construction industry desparate for work perfect time to start work,get it built for next to nothing.

Not our lot their going to wait till the credit crunch eases and prices start rising again.
Bright lot r'nt they

And here we see, beautifully demonstrated, the attitude that got us into this financial mess in the first place.

It doesn't matter how much you want something. If you cannot afford it then you can't have it.

I agree that the next few years would be a good time to be building, I mentioned it in my first post above.  It makes no odds though if we have not got the money. 

The best thing that could happen to us is a takeover by someone with their own capital streams.  Unfortunately, as WaltonRed pointed out, there aren't many of those around at the moment.

[west_london_red]

It doesn't matter how much you want something. If you cannot afford it then you can't have it.

Can you call my girlfriend and tell her that please!

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Can you call my girlfriend and tell her that please!

   No problem.       For a fee. 
 
Just fill out this simple credit agreement.   

[Something Else]

WLR, it doesn't matter how they proposed to build it when they never intended to in the first place.

Harry you seem to have developed a bit of a cult following on here with some of what you say anyone agreeing on but this is bollocks

[Coady]

I guess this shows no sale was or is likely, gods know where the Times get their stories from.

[belfast-connection]

this is bollocks from ayres

just the same old business-as-usual line that the owners will peddle constantly through third parties from now until the end of january so as to make it look like they're not desperate to sell

[oojason]

The credit crunch started hitting the economies in july 2007 at the latest.  That's when the spread between 3 month libor and the bank base rate started widening.  July is when Bear Stearns first made public problems with hedge fund investments.  In April 2007 New Century Financial (a sub-prime lender) filed for Chapter 11.

Strange - G&H announced the delay in building the new stadium in March/April 2007 - and then came up with new more expensive plans later on, then scaled the plans back, and then promised a spade in the ground within 60 days, and then birds nesting in the park was used as an excuse for not building, before then settling on using the credit crunch as an excuse.

Yeah - I must be fucking seriously deluded.

[todda]

Whats the point off his comments. till its built they ought to keep quite on the stadium.
The stadium was ment to be built by 2010/11 way things r they wo'nt have even started construction by then.

Originally the stadium was to be built by 2008 (now) for the year of culture.  I'd be surprised if we get a new ground by the middle of the next decade.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Strange - G&H announced the delay in building the new stadium in March/April 2007 - and then came up with new more expensive plans later on, then scaled the plans back, and then promised a spade in the ground within 60 days, and then birds nesting in the park was used as an excuse for not building, before then settling on using the credit crunch as an excuse.

Yeah - I must be fucking seriously deluded.

You said it.  They announced the initial delay because they wanted a new design. This was probably the right decision as the original design was rubbish and was hamstrung by our lack of funds.  They came up with a new design which was sunsequently, scaled down and then scrapped because of escalating raw material prices and the lasck of available credit.

The time line fits perfectly.  They have lied to us about many things but there is no evidence to suggest that they did not intend to build a new stadium.  Their business plans simply do not stack up without it in place.  Which is why they are looking to sell.

[Liverbird 2010]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz................................

[west_london_red]

Whats bothering me (again all hypothetical) is whose going to sit in this extended Kop? Would it be possible to have 10,000 corporate seats and keep them all off the Kop? Even if they put them elsewhere, if 1 in 6 "fans" is a corporate, and once you take into account the away fans, I dread to think what the atmosphere will be like..... maybe we should stay at Anfield....

[Rossie]

Originally the stadium was to be built by 2008 (now) for the year of culture.  I'd be surprised if we get a new ground by the middle of the next decade.

I remember that.  Parry putting pressure on the council to get the planning permission saying it was vital to get it built in time for the CoC year.

[HarryLabrador]

Harry you seem to have developed a bit of a cult following on here with some of what you say anyone agreeing on but this is bollocks

Don't be ludicrous. I am not interested in any cult following I am only focused on the best interests of Liverpool Football Club, like any fan. I have worked with business men like G&H before and the only thing you can guarantee is that they talk well, deliver nothing and are only interested in making money for themselves. You don't need me to reiterate all the unfulfilled promises in the time that they have had tenure of our club.

[oojason]

You said it.  They announced the initial delay because they wanted a new design. This was probably the right decision as the original design was rubbish and was hamstrung by our lack of funds.  They came up with a new design which was sunsequently, scaled down and then scrapped because of escalating raw material prices and the lasck of available credit.

The time line fits perfectly.  They have lied to us about many things but there is no evidence to suggest that they did not intend to build a new stadium.  Their business plans simply do not stack up without it in place.  Which is why they are looking to sell.

They cancelled the stadium plans that they could afford when there was no credit crunch, and then, when the credit crunch kicked in (according to ttnbd the credit crunch occurred by July 2007 at the latest)  G&H announced a grander, more expensive and new stadium plan during this time - when building materials costs were already high.

I may be deluded on many things - this is not one of them. We have been consistently lied to about the stadium.

They are seemingly going to walk away with a substantial profit if/when the club is sold for doing feck all but piss off the manager and fans and burdening the club with debt all in a very short space of time. And we're still no closer to getting a new ground.


I'm surprised more people aren't questioning whether G&H were ever going to actually build a new stadium at all.

[fowlerisgod96]

By the time building starts the credit crunch wont matter because money will be extinct. We'll have to send Skrtel to loads of building sites to get all the material.

[ttnbd]

Right, so they bought a club that, in general, was a break even business with £240m of debt and expect to be able to pay it back without a new stadium to increase revenues/profits?

For their business model to work, and for them to make money, the stadium has to be built.

They announced new plans in July 07, which everyone at the time said was the right thing to do because the old plans were poor.  2 months later the 5th largest bank in england goes to the wall, the cost of finance shoots up and capital markets completely freeze up.

The wrong thing to do over the last 12 months will have been to start the stadium.  It's not the time to start such ambitious construction projects at a time when there is limited capital availability and falling construction prices.  If waiting a year saves the club £50m in construction costs then it'll be worth it.