Author Topic: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?  (Read 11300 times)

Offline xerxes1

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #40 on: July 2, 2010, 11:00:37 am »
  They thought that they could just hang around for a few years, without risking any of their own money, and then sell at a profit.
LFC was performing very well on and off the pitch relative to stadium size.The club was bought on the open market with only one other bidder prepared to go to their sort of offer. Hardly a bargain with many disappounted failed would be buyers, was it?


In an era of low inflation, and with Football Clubs traditionally  making modest profits, but regularly requiring cash injections, how were they going to do that in a few years?
« Last Edit: July 2, 2010, 11:17:37 am by xerxes1 »
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Offline dwesty

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #41 on: July 4, 2010, 04:47:22 pm »
Hicks syphoned all the Texas Rangers-owned land off to a seperate company and isn't including that in the sale so it wouldn't be a surprise if he somehow did similar with LFC's ground, merchandise etc.

He's defaulted on his loans there, filed for bankruptcy to prolong the sale, has been unable to pay players, he's had to borrow from the league itself and is 'the most hated man in baseball'- yet still wants to keep 5% ownership so he can carry on 'being a fan' !!!

The guy is scum and his twatty mate vouched for him.

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Offline Bonaqua

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #42 on: July 4, 2010, 05:43:34 pm »
Sorry. I`m new here. Not english. 
There`s a lot of talk about Hicks who scupper bids, administration and asset stripping. And maybe this would have happened if he owned the club alone. But he doesn`t. He ownes half of it. Read about Gillett wanting to sell but Hicks vetoing him earlier. Then I guess this could be vice versa too, also regarding the sales process? Get the feeling that there are things going on behind the scene between the owners. Please correct me if I`m wrong.

Offline Zeb

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #43 on: July 4, 2010, 07:46:16 pm »
Broughton’s comments prompt many questions.

"Willing buyer, willing seller" is the legal definition of 'fair market value', no?

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Offline Diomedieocre

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #44 on: July 4, 2010, 08:02:57 pm »
Sorry. I`m new here. Not english. 
There`s a lot of talk about Hicks who scupper bids, administration and asset stripping. And maybe this would have happened if he owned the club alone. But he doesn`t. He ownes half of it. Read about Gillett wanting to sell but Hicks vetoing him earlier. Then I guess this could be vice versa too, also regarding the sales process? Get the feeling that there are things going on behind the scene between the owners. Please correct me if I`m wrong.

By all accounts they fucking hate each other. they have had more spats than a pair of teenage lovers...over Rafa,over Parry, over selling....and probly many others.

Offline xerxes1

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #45 on: July 4, 2010, 08:56:51 pm »
"Willing buyer, willing seller" is the legal definition of 'fair market value', no?

And?
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Offline Zeb

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #46 on: July 4, 2010, 10:00:05 pm »
Forgive brevity.

Broughton’s comments prompt many questions. Let’s look at what he said.

What is the “first round” of bidding ? And what is the significance of July? If someone was interested in buying the club they have had ample opportunity to do so before.

They're holding an auction. Prior to Broughton being brought in, it may well be that interested parties weren't inclined to deal with H&G nor were the circumstances quite the same - cf Rhone bid which was for a controlling interest not full ownership.

Quote
If the Club goes into Administration RBS’s prime responsibility is to get its £237m back, equally G&H’s prime concern is to at least cover what they have put in. It is a nonsense to suggest that either would plump for a “better bidder” in terms of their long term plans for the club at the expense of covering their respective outlays.

Broughton and Barcap seem to believe that this is not a likely eventuality. The owners are only "committed to accepting any reasonable offer'" (source: Broughton's interview after Mr.Hodgson was appointed on Lfctv).

Quote
IF, the desire is to go for the best, rather than highest, bidder, that suggests that there is no pressure/requirement to sell. That does not appear to be true. So it’s a contradiction.

Not necessarily. The devil will be in the detail of what the 'best' bidder means. Broughton links it to a commitment to build a stadium. The terms and conditions of that commitment may be the key to understanding this. For example, an agreement to finance a new stadium via RBS and Barcap would offer the 'added value' which might be part of the sale or it may well be to commit to building what H&G have planned and so not be able to discount the cost of that against the price being paid. What Broughton is saying is that the club is not being valued as a distressed asset.

Quote
A year after Purslow arrived to sell the club/ raise finanace and getting on for three months after  Broughton arrived  to sell the club we are apparently “Where we expected to be”, but have not had a single offer!  A process which he is overseeing and Barcap are running. Well so far I am not impressed.

Purslow found Rhone. Shite effort but it would seem no-one was biting at sharing ownership with H&G. For an auction, which will presumably have a deadline for bids, potential owners would have until that deadline. The question is why Broughton and why Barcap were brought in to oversee and run the process. I doubt they're limiting their search for potential bidders, but I'd lay good money they have been using every contact in the Middle East they've got.

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So the owners can’t block the sale of the club. Well if they own it surely they can? If they don’t why have RBS not already sold at a realistic price (£237m+) ?

See quote earlier. They can block if offer is not reasonable (ie a fair market value). Realistic price is not going to be the same as bank debt, which is only £18 million more than price paid in spite of increased revenues.

Quote
So there is no base line? What about RBS’s exposure? Is that not a base line? Surely all that does is to encourage any interested part to sit back .......................and offer £1?

There is no reserve. That is not the same as a base line. There is no minimum figure for a bid, or a price at which the club is automatically sold. But the owners are apparantly committed to selling at a fair market value.

Quote
On the one hand it is an auction, on the other it is NOT necessarily to the highest bidder???????And there is no minimum.............................??????  Second Hand Sam the car dealer in Crocky could do a better job than that.

Note again the link Broughton makes between 'best bid' and the stadium. That's the really odd part of the process.

Quote
My take on this? I understand that G&H are in the termination of contract phase of their loan agreement with RBS.RBS’s current funding is purely to support a sale. G&H are exploiting the clauses in that phase for all they are worth and at some point, when an offer comes in which covers RBS’s exposure they will say to G&H (If they haven’t taken a better bid before should one have been made) “if you don’t take this, we will take you into Administration and take it ourselves plus fees”.

Seems like it. Looks like the last chance for them to realise maximum profit on the club given current circumstances. If this fails, then they stand to lose their £110 million guarantees plus their £100 million+ inter-company loan as RBS could put us into admin and only have to realise £127 million. But it could also be the last chance for anyone interested in owning Liverpool to buy the club before the club is totally ripped apart by every asset an administrator can lay his hands on being sold off. Big question is what is in the stadium guarantees which are being made part and parcel of the deal. It could well be that in total, Hicks valuation of the deal could be near the mark - price paid for the club + commitment to take out financing for stadium as previously arranged with current lender.
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Offline NeonPeon

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #47 on: July 5, 2010, 06:45:28 am »
They aren't motivated in any way to damage the club.

They made a leveraged buy out at a time when a lot of investors did, because loans were easy to come by.  We then entered an unprecedented recession, and their loans on multiple different investments exposed them entirely.

I don't like the fact that they gambled and lost, and that to me isn't what annoys me about them the most - it was the responsibility of those selling the club to make sure that an owner would have funding at appropriate levels of risk.  What annoys me the most is that subsequent to owning the club, and independent of them plodding to the realization that the recession wasn't going to be a short lived thing, and they'd need to sell up, they just behaved completely unprofessionally.  The bickering with each other, the horrible PR, the naive interviews.  I expect owners to lie, given the circumstances, I expect everyone at the club to the but the best spin on things.  What we got was just immature incompetence which introduced unnecessary instability to the parlous structural difficulties due to market forces and their own failed gamble.

At any rate, anyone who thinks that H&G, Purslow, or Hicks, has an agenda to destroy the club, or thinks it's some sort of valid condemnation that all they are in it for is money, is unbelievably naive.  It's all just business, it's just's too bad it was a lot of bad business.

Offline JJ Red

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #48 on: July 5, 2010, 08:13:24 am »
Perhaps Jack or Xeres1 could answer this for me.

My take on it is that there is potential that MB and TH are not on the same page and possibly MB is getting a little pissed offf with TH always coming out in the media with these ridiculous valuations.

If it comes to a point (and MB is correct) where "the Liverpool board" accept a deal that is less than another bid but will be better for the club in the long run, is there potential for the club to be mired in litigation brought about by one of the owners, unhappy that we have not taken the offer that would give them the best return???

Offline Zeb

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #49 on: July 5, 2010, 08:38:47 am »
Interesting comment.  I dont pretend to fully understand all that, but I'll take your word for it that it is a plausible explanation of what Broughton has said.

For me, there is a much simpler explanation.  I aint contradicting you, coz what you've said may well be right  (although, I dont think that the banks would agree to measuring the bids by taking into account what room there is for G&H's future involvement, if that is part of what you're saying).  But, in addition, or in the alternative:

MB's comments are a bit of PR.  (a) RBS dont want to be seen as the bad guys.  They want the fans to think that the bank values what they, the fans, want (even though RBS dont really care).  (b) Any new buyer will claim that they were the 'best' and not simply the highest bidder.  So MB is simply going along with that.

So MB isnt lying, but just gilding the lily.  In reality, the only thing that would stop the highest bid succeeding would be if the bidder didnt really have the cash, or else was likely to fail the fit and proper test.

Currently stadium costs are coming from a loan facility to the club provided by RBS which could reach a maximum of £97 million. Interestingly, this same facility can also be used for working capital. Currently stadium costs are listed as part of the club's assets. If the stadium costs are written off then the club has to write down its asset value which will have an impact on the price paid. Is this why it seems to be linked? We also know that financing has been agreed in principle with RBS for the stadium to be constructed - is this something which has to be passed on to the next owner? Speculation on my part, but it's an interesting link Broughton's making re. what constitutes 'best bidder'.

Caveats for Broughton's comments go without saying.

Just pointing out there is little inherently confusing about what Broughton has been saying on the record.
« Last Edit: July 5, 2010, 08:44:58 am by Zeb »
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Offline Zeb

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #50 on: July 5, 2010, 09:51:08 am »
The theory that G&H have gone to all this trouble and expense just so that they can do an Ashley (and announce the sale is off once - they hope - protests have subsided) is very far-fetched imho.  Whereas, the idea that the banks are insisting on being paid soon-ish, and have forced G&H to let MB have overall control of the sale process is perfectly plausible, and fits in with all the (admittedly limited) information on the public record.

It doesn't fit with what is currently happening, but does not mean that it may not be an option in the future should bidders not meet whatever is being considered as a reasonable offer (and Broughton's smugness says to me he's optimistic that the bids will materialise) and it doesn't mean it wasn't a valid worry in the past. What seems to have been changed is that this sales process locks in H&G til after the current transfer window closes and so prevents any action on their part which would destabilise the club's value as an asset during an auction process. It certainly doesn't seem to be a sham process and you'd have thought that any commitment would have some actionable clause to prevent anyone getting cold feet. From a business point of view, H&G stand to lose a lot of money on a very, very high risk gamble if they don't cash in now. It's one thing gambling with a bank's money, it's another when it's their own personal wealth which could be at risk.

----

Here's a question - how much would some of you financial whizzes value Liverpool FC at currently? Appreciate most recent accounts publicly available are a year out of date but most of the major changes to finances have been publicly known for the past season (eg Standard Chartered deal, no trade creditors). I'm thinking c.£320 million - £350 million without stadium costs being included as assets, would that be about right?
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Offline dwesty

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #51 on: July 5, 2010, 12:03:17 pm »
As part of any sale H & G will want their high-interest loan either maintained, or paid off. The sale will also require either repaying (or taking over) the RBS debt. H & G would no doubt also want a healthy min £100m surplus profit between them. Therefore if someone offered them £100 million to walk away, theoretically we could be in exactly the same boat debt-wise? So I can't see the twats selling for less than £540m. To break even it's about £440m and rising, yes?

Question is will a cash-rich buyer come along with a billion pounds of 'fun money' to clear the debts, buy world class players and build a stadium, or are we going to end up still in debt but with a new owner and years of underachievement?

Seems to me our only path to on-field success now is finding an Abramovich/ManCity-style sugar daddy.

RBS:

"...we hope to have the opportunity to continue our financial support for the Club under its new ownership, once determined."

Ominous?
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Offline xerxes1

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #52 on: July 6, 2010, 08:35:19 am »
Whereas, the idea that the banks are insisting on being paid soon-ish, and have forced G&H to let MB have overall control of the sale process is perfectly plausible, and fits in with all the (admittedly limited) information on the public record.
There can be little doubt that this is the end game. I have a minor issue wit the phrase"overall control" of the sale process, he is fronting it up. G&H and RBS are the ones with executive authority.
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Offline Dave_the_Red

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #53 on: July 6, 2010, 01:52:51 pm »
Money is the key. Will they make more money selling our prized assets first. Leaving a shell of a team, plus these 45million pound deficits the last two years which kop Cayman have paid?. Which ever makes them the most money it will be

Offline Zeb

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #54 on: July 6, 2010, 04:33:13 pm »
Hmmmmm, been mulling over saying this for a number of weeks now after a long chat with a few friends who do this for a living and I was hoping someone with professional competence in accounting might have mentioned it, but I can't find more than vague hints...

The club is probably insolvent isn't it? Cashflow insolvent for a near almost certainty, and only avoiding appearing balance sheet insolvent by counting stadium debt as an asset? We're seeing directors following legal obligations to creditors right now aren't we? And with our trade creditors now for a near certainty paid off (Rafa balancing the player account and still having a squad which sends so many to the World Cup - fuck me, that man just keeps rising in my estimation), we're really just left with the two major creditors - RBS and Kop (Cayman) who need to be satisfied.

Simple 'yay' or 'nay' from them's that understand would be nice ;)
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Offline Witherkay

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #55 on: July 6, 2010, 06:41:25 pm »
Hmmmmm, been mulling over saying this for a number of weeks now after a long chat with a few friends who do this for a living and I was hoping someone with professional competence in accounting might have mentioned it, but I can't find more than vague hints...

The club is probably insolvent isn't it? Cashflow insolvent for a near almost certainty, and only avoiding appearing balance sheet insolvent by counting stadium debt as an asset? We're seeing directors following legal obligations to creditors right now aren't we? And with our trade creditors now for a near certainty paid off (Rafa balancing the player account and still having a squad which sends so many to the World Cup - fuck me, that man just keeps rising in my estimation), we're really just left with the two major creditors - RBS and Kop (Cayman) who need to be satisfied.

Simple 'yay' or 'nay' from them's that understand would be nice ;)

Without up to date figures, no one can possibly say.

Didn't Broughton have to go before the Premier League to 'prove' we were not insolvent and were capable of fullfilling the 2010/11 fixtures? Did he bullshit them? Time will tell.

I think the phrase along the lines of 'providing operational support' or something like that has been mentioned by RBS, which does suggest cashflow is very bad, but its all guesswork without facts.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: H&G - What possible motivation do they have for crippling the club?
« Reply #56 on: July 6, 2010, 07:44:30 pm »
Without up to date figures, no one can possibly say.

Didn't Broughton have to go before the Premier League to 'prove' we were not insolvent and were capable of fullfilling the 2010/11 fixtures? Did he bullshit them? Time will tell.

I think the phrase along the lines of 'providing operational support' or something like that has been mentioned by RBS, which does suggest cashflow is very bad, but its all guesswork without facts.

Understood. Tried to caveat sufficiently because it is speculating based on trends within the known figures and by tracking factual events which would indicate that the directors have acknowledge the direction the company is taking.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."