Topic: A European Super League: The future of football?

[Flaccido Dongingo]

Don't let them hoodwink you into thinking this will be for sporting reasons, will it fuck, all the money in the world still isn't enough it would seem.

[jillcwhomever]

There could be another story to this and its the clubs keeping the pressure on UEFA over doing something about the elephant in the room, ie PSG/City. I don't mind them using the Super League as a threat which keeps the pressure on the authorities to actually do something about clipping the wings on spending. I don't think a Super League is going to happen any time soon, but its the most obvious pressure that the clubs have over the likes of UEFA.

[rushyman]

Be good if this happens in a way

I’ll be done with the sport amd will free up my time, take up something else that doesn’t wind me the fuck up for 9 months a year

[drmick]

I doubt the likes of Real, Barca, United, LFC etc will want to share an independent competition with City or PSG.

[idontknow]

Be good if this happens in a way

I’ll be done with the sport amd will free up my time, take up something else that doesn’t wind me the fuck up for 9 months a year

Take up drumming and wind the fuck up out your neighbours instead 

[idontknow]

There could be another story to this and its the clubs keeping the pressure on UEFA over doing something about the elephant in the room, ie PSG/City. I don't mind them using the Super League as a threat which keeps the pressure on the authorities to actually do something about clipping the wings on spending. I don't think a Super League is going to happen any time soon, but its the most obvious pressure that the clubs have over the likes of UEFA.

To me, this is the most likely explanation.  After getting 97 points to finish 2nd I didn't expect FSG to simply shrug and sigh, 'Oh, well!' They've been in football long enough now to know how to operate behind the scenes.

I don't want a Super League, horrible idea. If I wanted that I'd dig my Subbuteo out and make my own league.

[cress]

There could be another story to this and its the clubs keeping the pressure on UEFA over doing something about the elephant in the room, ie PSG/City. I don't mind them using the Super League as a threat which keeps the pressure on the authorities to actually do something about clipping the wings on spending. I don't think a Super League is going to happen any time soon, but its the most obvious pressure that the clubs have over the likes of UEFA.

It's been in the making for a few years now and City and PSG will be founders of it if it goes ahead. This isn't anything to do with putting pressure on UEFA/FIFA over FFP and it is all to do with money. The super league idea lead to the changes in the champions league. More money for wins, more money for those with a better co-efficient, more money the further you go.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.spiegel.de/international/world/football-documents-show-secret-plans-for-elite-league-of-top-clubs-a-1236447-amp.html

[Jm55]

Couldn’t think of anything worse.

The format as we have it now works, leave it be

[Ray K]

Martyn Ziegler in the Times is usually pretty well connected on these things.
A new proposal as an alternative to the Agnelli super league plan, for a CL expansion to 40 teams in 8x5 team groups (meaning 8 group games rather than 6) or alternatively 48 teams (8x6 team groups).

[my usenme changed?]

More teams could dilute the competition, but I do agree with van der sar, surely Ajax winning the Dutch league should get them into the competition proper, as opposed to the 4th placed Spanish team for example.

[thaddeus]

Martyn Ziegler in the Times is usually pretty well connected on these things.
A new proposal as an alternative to the Agnelli super league plan, for a CL expansion to 40 teams in 8x5 team groups (meaning 8 group games rather than 6) or alternatively 48 teams (8x6 team groups).

I'm guessing with both it would still just be the top two from each group qualifying (to keep the round of 16 as... 16 teams).  Having said that, I wouldn't put it past UEFA to go for the latter option (8x6) and have the top four of each group qualifying to create a new round of 32.

It sounds a bit naff to me and would make the early rounds of the Europa League like the Checkatrade Trophy with the top 40/48 teams in Europe all in the Champions League.

Still... it's a much better idea that Agnelli's!

(Side note: a 13-0 in a World Cup finals match sadly does the women's game no favours)

[Chris~]

2-4 extra game would surely mean English top 4 sides staying out of the league cup. Not sure how they'd really manage to fit it in to the calender.

[jillcwhomever]

2-4 extra game would surely mean English top 4 sides staying out of the league cup. Not sure how they'd really manage to fit it in to the calender.

Which isn't a bad idea, I've never understood why there are two domestic cups in England only one is really needed.

[soxfan]

I'm guessing with both it would still just be the top two from each group qualifying (to keep the round of 16 as... 16 teams).  Having said that, I wouldn't put it past UEFA to go for the latter option (8x6) and have the top four of each group qualifying to create a new round of 32.

Don't be surprised if they do this to wring out even more money:

48 teams (8 groups of 6)
then
8 group winners get byes into next round while the 8 #2 and 8 #3 teams from each group meet in knockouts
then
round of 16, etc.

It would further ensure that the big name clubs fill out the round of 16. It would be brutally hard for a minnow to get through those first two rounds.

EDIT: I'm not saying this is a good idea. It sucks. But don't be shocked.

[Onward Liverpudlian]

An increase to a 40 team 8 match group stage is fair - extra places should go to clubs like the dutch champions not just extra slots for the big leagues and it is proportional - an extra 2 games group stage is not too excessive.

[BrandoLFC]

Which isn't a bad idea, I've never understood why there are two domestic cups in England only one is really needed.

I've been banging this drum for a while.  As heretical as it may sound for a club that has more League Cup wins than any other club, no premier league club takes it seriously (at least until the semi-final) and therefore no premier league team should be in it.

As I was saying earlier in this thread, the way to grow the game is to make more clubs have a chance to win something.  Agnelli's off his f'ing rocker as his plans are to try to turn the CL into the NFL which just isn't going to happen.  The Europa League II or whatever it will be called is a good idea though and it sounds like it's already approved.  Any way to include more teams in the pot and to improve the chances of Ajax, Olympiakos, Red Star and the like to win something is in the long run good for the sport.

You'd figure this will include teams 7-9 in the PL which is a bit unfair in that their payrolls will dwarf most others but you have to start somewhere.  And while I want nothing good for Everton or West Ham, Wolves, Watford or Leicester having consistent European nights sounds great and also will potentially help them bridge the gap to the other top sides.  Which then gets back to the LC as there will just be another competition that will take precedence over something that just no longer has the value it once did.

I also think if you had just one domestic cup competition then the PL clubs may value it more as they'll know they only have one chance to win something though I doubt most will still care.

[BrandoLFC]

Saw a twitter thread today that I'll try to find again after it's now been confirmed the closed loop system with 24 teams is now dead as far as the CL.  It sounds like the EL 2 is still possibly going to happen though?  What was most interesting was the suggestion of instead of doing the EL 2 doing an FA cup but for every team in the top 5 leagues and extensive minor European leagues with it just being 1 game knockouts.  You can seed in us, Barca, RM, Bayern way later just like the FA cup does now as well.  Sounds like a bit of a win/win to me and could make for some pretty amazing matchups.  For the top 4 it may be too much if you're going to take the LC seriously but again none of them do so /shrug.....

[newterp]

https://www.espn.com/soccer/uefa-champions-league/story/3938002/revamped-champions-league-proposal-thwarted

[harleydanger]

Saw a twitter thread today that I'll try to find again after it's now been confirmed the closed loop system with 24 teams is now dead as far as the CL.  It sounds like the EL 2 is still possibly going to happen though?  What was most interesting was the suggestion of instead of doing the EL 2 doing an FA cup but for every team in the top 5 leagues and extensive minor European leagues with it just being 1 game knockouts.  You can seed in us, Barca, RM, Bayern way later just like the FA cup does now as well.  Sounds like a bit of a win/win to me and could make for some pretty amazing matchups.  For the top 4 it may be too much if you're going to take the LC seriously but again none of them do so /shrug.....

Fuck seeding. Top 4 from every euro league. One game ties.

[wheresnemeth]

Fuck seeding. Top 4 from every euro league. One game ties.

I prefer the home and away option, but every game should be like the knockout stages of the champions league. Rather than this league format.

[Sheer Magnetism]

I prefer the home and away option, but every game should be like the knockout stages of the champions league. Rather than this league format.

I've said for a while I think the Europa should be expanded to 256 teams and consist of a straight one-tie knockout format (maybe two legs from the quarters) with random draws. It would give it a distinct feel from the Champions League too, instead of just being a lesser version.

[RedSince86]

Agnelli will try again no doubt, he's the one driving this change and wanting CL games on the weekends to damage the PL revenues and product.

He really hates how much money is in the PL, and his latest idea is for Juventus to have early kickoffs on the weekend to try and attract the Asian market which is a dumb idea as no one in Asia will watch Juve over any PL game.

[Nessy76]

Saw a twitter thread today that I'll try to find again after it's now been confirmed the closed loop system with 24 teams is now dead as far as the CL.  It sounds like the EL 2 is still possibly going to happen though?  What was most interesting was the suggestion of instead of doing the EL 2 doing an FA cup but for every team in the top 5 leagues and extensive minor European leagues with it just being 1 game knockouts.  You can seed in us, Barca, RM, Bayern way later just like the FA cup does now as well.  Sounds like a bit of a win/win to me and could make for some pretty amazing matchups.  For the top 4 it may be too much if you're going to take the LC seriously but again none of them do so /shrug.....

Interesting idea. The FA Cup has over 700 clubs taking part at various stages, so it could be done. I wouldn't put the Champions League clubs in, at least not those who make the last 16. The rest could get a bye until then, rather than dropping teams into the Europa, which nobody likes.

Good to hear the "closed shop" thing is dead in the water. Shit idea. It should always be based on sporting merit.

The problem with expanding the competition is that it just results in weaker teams getting in, or it increases the monopoly of the bigger leagues.

I have nothing against the idea of a two-tier competition in principle, with promotion and relegation between the two. It could work on a pyramid system. So you have a Div.2A made up of national champions and a Div.2B of teams from leagues already represented in the top division, highest finishers not already in the competition. The four semi-finalists of each get promoted, while the Group Stage losers are relegated.

Of course, that is likely to end up dominated by the big four leagues. Maybe if a team finishes 3rd in the group stage and another club from that country is to be promoted, you could have a play-off. That would put an effective limit on the number of teams from one country in the top competition.

[Gutzon Borglum]

Expanding the CL group games would just be even more unnecessary games, the same teams will still always end up in the last 16, which is when the real competition starts with the proper massive fixtures anyway. The epicness of the two-legged ties is what makes the Champions League so brilliant to watch, it's the greatest football competition in human history, it makes no sense to change it.

However, I can see why the big Euro clubs are concerned about the Premier League's rise. The reality is that we can sustain more big clubs and fund the smaller clubs to be more competitive in order to make it a better overall product.

The only way I'd ever accept a Super League would be if it had proper relegation and promotion to the National Leagues themselves. But as a Liverpool supporter and Premier League fan I'd obviously prefer shit to stay like it is.

The solution for the Europeans teams long term if trends continue and they fall behind elite Prem sides would be to group the French, Dutch and German leagues together, and the Italian, Spanish and Portugese leagues together. Then you'd have some seriously boss leagues.. Ajax fighting PSG, Bayern and Dortmund for one title, and Juve and the Milan clubs fighting Benfica, Real and Barca for the other. I'd be happy for us to take the Scottish clubs into the PL, Rangers and Celtic would be boss additions to the league.

This solution wouldn't be perfect, but I'd rather see something like that than an American-style Super League with permanent soulless "franchises" disconnected from the lower tiers of football.

[Gutzon Borglum]

Massive clubs stuck in smaller leagues just cant compete in Europe anymore and it's sad, the likes of Benfica, Celtic, Ajax, Olympiakos and Galatasaray are fucking massive clubs. If they were established in better leagues they'd be able to attract top talent and compete. They'd win less trophies overall obviously, but they'd at least have a chance to truly be elite clubs if they have a period where they get their management and recruitment right.

Liverpool, United, Real, Barca and Bayern will all literally never be further than a good manager and/or a few smart transfers away from competing at the highest level.

[rob1966]

Massive clubs stuck in smaller leagues just cant compete in Europe anymore and it's sad, the likes of Benfica, Celtic, Ajax, Olympiakos and Galatasaray are fucking massive clubs. If they were established in better leagues they'd be able to attract top talent and compete. They'd win less trophies overall obviously, but they'd at least have a chance to truly be elite clubs if they have a period where they get their management and recruitment right.

Liverpool, United, Real, Barca and Bayern will all literally never be further than a good manager and/or a few smart transfers away from competing at the highest level.

We are a good example of that. The turmoil we have had since 2001 and yet we have been in 6 European Finals winning a UEFA and 2 CL's

[BrandoLFC]

Ajax made quite a bit of money last year in the CL.  Even though the odds are against them those traditional powerhouses in smaller leagues only need the breaks to go their way in 90 minute increments if it's a 1 game knockout.  I think a Pan-European style FA cup whether it be 128 or 256 teams would allow a lot more teams to bask in CL type funds to help close the gap.  Agnelli and Juve can fuck off as well.

[Suareznumber7]

There will eventually be a super league with clubs "b" teams playing in their domestic leagues. 

[BrandoLFC]

There will eventually be a super league with clubs "b" teams playing in their domestic leagues.

Thankfully that is a long way off after the most recent proposals failed.

[Nessy76]

Expanding the CL group games would just be even more unnecessary games, the same teams will still always end up in the last 16, which is when the real competition starts with the proper massive fixtures anyway. The epicness of the two-legged ties is what makes the Champions League so brilliant to watch, it's the greatest football competition in human history, it makes no sense to change it.

However, I can see why the big Euro clubs are concerned about the Premier League's rise. The reality is that we can sustain more big clubs and fund the smaller clubs to be more competitive in order to make it a better overall product.

The only way I'd ever accept a Super League would be if it had proper relegation and promotion to the National Leagues themselves. But as a Liverpool supporter and Premier League fan I'd obviously prefer shit to stay like it is.

The solution for the Europeans teams long term if trends continue and they fall behind elite Prem sides would be to group the French, Dutch and German leagues together, and the Italian, Spanish and Portugese leagues together. Then you'd have some seriously boss leagues.. Ajax fighting PSG, Bayern and Dortmund for one title, and Juve and the Milan clubs fighting Benfica, Real and Barca for the other. I'd be happy for us to take the Scottish clubs into the PL, Rangers and Celtic would be boss additions to the league.

This solution wouldn't be perfect, but I'd rather see something like that than an American-style Super League with permanent soulless "franchises" disconnected from the lower tiers of football.

Cross border leagues are an interesting option. Can't see the Italian and Spanish leagues merging, though. There was talk about a Benelux league a few years ago, and the possibility of a Nordic/Scandi league has been raised a few times too.

[CraigDS]

There will eventually be a super league with clubs "b" teams playing in their domestic leagues.

I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime, and I’ve hopefully got a good 50+ years left in me.

[Nessy76]

I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime, and I’ve hopefully got a good 50+ years left in me.

Yeah, they've been saying the same thing since the early 90s at least. That was why the European Cup became the Champions League in the first place, to prevent a breakaway super league.
The fans don't want it.

[CraigDS]

Yeah, they've been saying the same thing since the early 90s at least. That was why the European Cup became the Champions League in the first place, to prevent a breakaway super league.
The fans don't want it.

Fans don’t want it, and not sure the PL clubs want it given how strong (financially) that is, and then they also benefit from a lucrative CL on top.

I’ve said it before but I really don’t think a Euro League brings in more revenue for clubs than PL + CL does.

[Suareznumber7]

More talk of a breakaway league

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/sports/real-madrid-fifa-european-super-league.html

[dimwit]

It will be every year from now on that if Real, or the italian mafia don't get what they expect, they'll cry murder and a breakaway league.

Would atually be nice if ADFC, PSG, Agnellis and Franco heritage could form their own inbred merry go around, Salfords finest would fit in that lot quite nicely.

But as it stands, and we can not accuse Juventus execs anymore for giving tickets to mafia for them to sell on for obnoxious prices, after all they were convicted for that allready.

[Alan_X]

There will eventually be a super league with clubs "b" teams playing in their domestic leagues. 

No there won't. How would you finance two complete squads for the Super League and the domestic league? Would we be able to put together a second string squad that would complete with Leicester City or the other teams left in the domestic competition?

Would you be able to get decent players for the second string competition?

[newterp]

It will be every year from now on that if Real, or the italian mafia don't get what they expect, they'll cry murder and a breakaway league.

Would atually be nice if ADFC, PSG, Agnellis and Franco heritage could form their own inbred merry go around, Salfords finest would fit in that lot quite nicely.

But as it stands, and we can not accuse Juventus execs anymore for giving tickets to mafia for them to sell on for obnoxious prices, after all they were convicted for that allready. Real Madrid doesn't have a leg to stand on in the current market. Not with Agnelli about.

Almost everyone knows a super league would be horrific all around...but they will still try everthing in their power to do it.

[Alan_X]

More talk of a breakaway league

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/sports/real-madrid-fifa-european-super-league.html

By that utter c*nt Perez. As the UEFA President puts it:

The proposal most likely would meet fierce resistance. At a stroke any such competition would decimate the value of domestic league matches, but by taking the best teams they also could destroy the value of the Champions League, the world’s richest club championship and the financial engine of European soccer’s governing body, UEFA.

“I have read about this insane plan. If reports are to be believed, it comes from a single club president, not the owner, and a lone football administrator. It would be hard to think of a more selfish and egotistical scheme,” said Aleksander Ceferin, the president of UEFA. “It would clearly ruin football around the world; for the players, for the fans and for everyone connected with the game — all for the benefit of a tiny number of people.”

Perez is a greedy prick who is obsessed with this.

[dimwit]

They will, and it will be up for the fans to stop it.

The kop at Anfield. yellow wall at dortmund, these are the things that the marketing people are salivating about.
take that bit of magic off, and suddenly you have a product like the everton to market about.

And this is the Breakpoint for anyone interested in the club more than his/hers selfies.

Any fucking proposed "superleague" match should be binned. No other person sitting in the stadium bar subs.

But as I said, It will be the Real's and Agnellis that will try to drive this forward, would be interesting to see what Juventus as a club would think, if not endulged with mobsters per Agnellis?

[Something Worse]

Ceferin's back from his trip to Abu Dhabi I see.