Author Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *  (Read 91968 times)

Offline oldfordie

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #120 on: November 8, 2023, 11:53:43 am »
Correct. One of the greatest dangers to democracy is the trite lie that “they’re all the same” which leads to people not bothering to vote. It’s deliberately pushed by the right wing media to persuade the working class not to vote. But you can be damn sure that the Tory core will all vote. It’s depressing but not surprising to see intelligent, progressive folk repeating this crap.

People have very good reasons for disliking Blair (Iraq, PFI, being smug etc) but it’s unanswerable that their sound management of the economy meant that billions of pounds more than was thought were spent on health and education with low unemployment, low interest rates and low inflation benefitting everyone. Not to mention a minimum wage, devolution and peace in Northern Ireland.  But sure he’s just a Tory (eye-roll). Of course that’s anathema to the far left who continue to drive their special brand of intellectual purity which coincidentally tends to lead to perpetual opposition and huge Tory majorities (see 1983 and 2019).

I won’t pretend to be wowed by Starmer but frankly it’s time we had some dull competency in place of the circus we’ve had over the past 13 years.
Yeah. The difference Competency will make shouldn't be underestimated, you don't have to spend spend spend to improve things, as you say, it's been a Circus government for years. even Tory MPs think they are talentless yet some are determined to try and make arguments to make people believe Labour won't improve things much.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #121 on: November 8, 2023, 03:46:05 pm »
Immigration is a whole different kettle of fish, but one that many people are concerned about for a host of reasons (And this is people on the 'left', the 'centre' and the 'right' - but probably for different reasons)

It's not an easy subject to deal with and the Right-wing media and the Tories have made it toxic.

The first step is to put into place a system where legitimate immigrants and refugees can be processed and handled. That's not happening at the moment.

The second step is to look at what can be done if people fail the conditions to enter the country.

The third step is to look at what can be done in the case someone is here illegally, under false pretences or whatever.


There aren't just 'immigrants', there are, like many things, many different types - illegal, legal, economic, asylum seekers from war and persecution and personal danger, those that have aided the UK and are now in danger, those that have married into familes, those that were born here and probably another hundred 'tags'

For me, personally, the main thing is for us to have fair and just laws around this and a fair and just immigration service that handles and reviews cases speedily, fairly, constantly and then have clear steps of what can be done to help the people, regardless of their status. Everyone deserves to be treated fairly and with respect in my opinion.


It's not an easy thing and the dismantling of the system by those tossers makes it much harder.
All of your suggestions would be a massive improvement on the present situation, especially if applications for asylum were processed without the need to get into a small dinghy. But we (and I include the likes of the EU, US etc) always seem to be focussed on the wrong end of the problem. If large numbers of people feel they have to move from A to B to get a better life, why do we put all of our energies into building barriers around B instead of helping make A a decent place to live and work? Obviously wars and human rights abusing regimes are very difficult to handle but we could choose to intervene elsewhere with aid and investment to help stem the flow of economic migration. We also have the ticking timebomb of global warming. Famine and floods could make the current migration flows look small-scale  :(

Offline oldfordie

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #122 on: November 8, 2023, 04:20:06 pm »
My point was that the world has moved on from 13 years ago, and Labour and the Conservatives are to some extent different parties, so claiming that: "Saying not much would change if Labour took charge now is like saying not much changed when the Tories took over" is nonsensical. You may as well be citing Bevan's government or Thatcher's (which you actually did, looking down).

Would a Labour government be an improvement? Obviously. Will they actually bring in policies that can counteract all the harm caused since then? Starmer and Reeves themselves have said they don't want to spend to do so, have ruled out taxing the wealthy and most of the policies they've announced have either been surface changes or given up after a few months. Let's see how long the GB Energy plan lasts - I suspect it'll be either heavily watered down or backtracked completely before the election.

None of this is a reason not to vote Labour, simply a reaction to reality - not fantasies about how Starmer might be secretly left wing and will start being radical once Labour gets into power, but the reality of what he says and how he acts.
You want radical change, the left have always wanted radical change but they've actually hindered the fight for radical change letting ideology dictate their arguments for radical change.
Leaving the EU for one. a Isolationist policy the left of Europe disagree with. the world moved on many years ago on this, the left are the ones still living in the past believing a socialist state can prosper in isolation, it can't. we have to trade under world conditions to prosper.
Thankfully the argument for Nationalisation arguing clause 4 has also died a death over the last few yrs, another argument based in the past when the argument should have always been about decency.
 The last people to preach about the world moving on is the far left.

The Torys never changed from 2010 to 2017, Cameron won the country over with his argument for Austerity and May continued it,. all the change this country has gone through is down to Tory ideology, incompetence and corruption. it had nothing to do with the world changing.
 Labour will do what they always do, improve lives in everyway possible.
I don't expect Labour to shout they will spend spend spend, I watched one man on tv last night saying he has problems with Starmer he spends too much  ???
How Labour always spend too much, he seemed a very intelligent man who looked well off, this is what Labour are up against, how could Starmer possibly spend too much, he has no power over the economy, one of the myths of politics in Labour always borrow more than the Torys, it's not true, it wasn't correct before the Torys took over in 2010 and it's ballooned since then, official figures show the Torys record on debt is far worse than Labours, problem is Tory supporters will just shake their head in disbelief, everybody knows Labour borrow more than the Torys is their attitude when they have never bothered checking the official figures, they just accept what the Torys tell them, this is why Labour have to be so wary, the Tory will pounce if they announce policys that can't be paid for, it's sickening, voters turned on Labour over the debt in 2015 yet the same people aren't bothered when the Torys borrow far more.
Labour can't make too many promises right now for this reason, they will bring in change to help people in many ways without bumping up wages dramatically.
People are looking for something to attack Labour over, it happened with the NHS, arguments made to attack  Wes Streeting as a Tory who want's to privatise the NHS. that is sick. Labour have said they will change the tax system.
I think some are more concerned in punishing the elite, reform the HOL etc. I agree with it but it won't make us better off, only policys do that.
« Last Edit: November 8, 2023, 05:17:13 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #123 on: November 8, 2023, 06:23:11 pm »
All of your suggestions would be a massive improvement on the present situation, especially if applications for asylum were processed without the need to get into a small dinghy. But we (and I include the likes of the EU, US etc) always seem to be focussed on the wrong end of the problem. If large numbers of people feel they have to move from A to B to get a better life, why do we put all of our energies into building barriers around B instead of helping make A a decent place to live and work? Obviously wars and human rights abusing regimes are very difficult to handle but we could choose to intervene elsewhere with aid and investment to help stem the flow of economic migration. We also have the ticking timebomb of global warming. Famine and floods could make the current migration flows look small-scale  :(

Indeed.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #124 on: November 8, 2023, 07:55:30 pm »
All of your suggestions would be a massive improvement on the present situation, especially if applications for asylum were processed without the need to get into a small dinghy. But we (and I include the likes of the EU, US etc) always seem to be focussed on the wrong end of the problem. If large numbers of people feel they have to move from A to B to get a better life, why do we put all of our energies into building barriers around B instead of helping make A a decent place to live and work? Obviously wars and human rights abusing regimes are very difficult to handle but we could choose to intervene elsewhere with aid and investment to help stem the flow of economic migration. We also have the ticking timebomb of global warming. Famine and floods could make the current migration flows look small-scale  :(

Yeah we did. But the Tories have pretty much zeroed foreign aid and their targeted shithouse campaign has made it political.

Even people that are moderate or left are saying "WE SHOULD LOOK AFTER OUR OWN!!"

Even though the money 'saved' doesn't even go on our own.

I totally agree and always have. But that's just another piece of the jigsaw puzzle that the Tories have shaken up, stuck in the toilet and had a shite on.

It's Labours job to pick those pieces out of the shitter, carefully clean them and start assembling them to make this country and the world a better place.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #125 on: November 8, 2023, 08:08:38 pm »
My point was that the world has moved on from 13 years ago, and Labour and the Conservatives are to some extent different parties, so claiming that: "Saying not much would change if Labour took charge now is like saying not much changed when the Tories took over" is nonsensical. You may as well be citing Bevan's government or Thatcher's (which you actually did, looking down).

Would a Labour government be an improvement? Obviously. Will they actually bring in policies that can counteract all the harm caused since then? Starmer and Reeves themselves have said they don't want to spend to do so, have ruled out taxing the wealthy and most of the policies they've announced have either been surface changes or given up after a few months. Let's see how long the GB Energy plan lasts - I suspect it'll be either heavily watered down or backtracked completely before the election.

None of this is a reason not to vote Labour, simply a reaction to reality - not fantasies about how Starmer might be secretly left wing and will start being radical once Labour gets into power, but the reality of what he says and how he acts.


Good points.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #126 on: November 8, 2023, 08:16:45 pm »
Some interesting points and I think to further the conversation in the interesting way it's already started. This is the question.

1. Do you want the Tories out? Yes or no.
2. Do you want Labour in? Yes or no.


Will probably help people to get their head round your views going forward.

I'm happy to answer

1. Yes
2. Yes

Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #127 on: November 8, 2023, 09:03:40 pm »
1. Yes
2. Yes

I don't, though, see why you and others get so worked up when people try to debate what policies they want to see Labour adopt
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #128 on: November 8, 2023, 10:12:13 pm »
1. Yes
2. Yes

I don't, though, see why you and others get so worked up when people try to debate what policies they want to see Labour adopt

I'm worked up about what the Conservatives have done to this country. I'm only old enough really to remember Thatcher and her war on the UK and the new lot and their same war on fucking the UK up the hoop.

It's amazing that they think they are 'for the country' and 'nationalists' when it's clear they hate the fucking place and are trying to fucking wreck it.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline -HH-

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #129 on: November 8, 2023, 11:17:46 pm »
Helping out the poorest in society? Helping out the weak, sick, infirm, old, disabled, mentally ill, homeless, threatened, fearful and immigrants that have a legitimate right to be here.

Also helping the NHS and schools and hospitals and ambulance service and police force and nurses and doctors and teachers and public sector works and families and people in general and all the services that have been fucked by the Tories?

Do I win £5?

They have a mammoth task. You can bet that if they get more than one term, they'll have a crack at fixing stuff, just like the last Labour government demonstrably did. If you 'didn't notice' then you were either too young or were from a household where money and services weren't a concern.

Made a massive difference to my family and where I lived and the NHS and all the rest.

You would win a prize if they actually do any of that.

Problem is Andy that you are relentlessly tribal. You were all over Corbyn on Facebook time and time again for not being strong enough on Brexit. Starmer says he's going to make Brexit work and you're still all over him like he's the second coming.

It's embarrassing.

85% of his members want Proportional Representation. He is actively against implementing it. He is colluding with the lies austerity was built on. He is going to "make Brexit work".

What is there to be optimistic about when you take your tribal support away?
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

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In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #130 on: November 8, 2023, 11:19:04 pm »
I'm worked up about what the Conservatives have done to this country.

Could have done with some of that passion when Corbyn was in charge to be honest, Andy. Might have got some actual positive policies rather than more of the same with a red rosette on.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #131 on: November 9, 2023, 02:29:08 am »
You want radical change, the left have always wanted radical change but they've actually hindered the fight for radical change letting ideology dictate their arguments for radical change.
Leaving the EU for one. a Isolationist policy the left of Europe disagree with. the world moved on many years ago on this, the left are the ones still living in the past believing a socialist state can prosper in isolation, it can't. we have to trade under world conditions to prosper.
Thankfully the argument for Nationalisation arguing clause 4 has also died a death over the last few yrs, another argument based in the past when the argument should have always been about decency.
 The last people to preach about the world moving on is the far left.
I'm not sure where you've got the idea I'm far left, pro-Brexit or desperate for 'radical change'. As I said, I'm a realist while you seem to be more of a political dreamer. Perhaps you're right and Starmer and Reeves will pull a bait and switch to left-wing policies when they get in power, but I have grave doubts.

This is what I think is more likely:

Labour get in and Starmer says that while some may want him to spend money, the election result is a mandate for low spending and fiscal conservatism, and that he would be betraying the electorate (including you and Andy) if he did that. Instead, he'll frame the decision to do almost nothing as 'a tough decision', and in five years time "Wait until they get in power" will be "Wait until the second term" and "Don't you want to kick the Tories out?" will be "Don't you want to keep the Tories out?" In the second term, faced with either an authoritarian, bureaucratic party that always sides with the wealthy, or a virtually fascist party that explicitly sides with the wealthy, working class voters will begin leaving in droves for more populist choices, at which point Labour will panic and shift right to try and chase Tory votes, pushing them and the Overton window as a whole even further rightward.

Do you know what I'd like to see?

It doesn't have to be radical socialism. I'd like to see Starmer attack Conservatism - not the failure of our housing policy, our polluted rivers, Brexit and its effect on small businesses, child poverty rates or the deterioration of the transport system and the NHS - but the failure of Conservatism as the idea that ties it all together. Stop just going along with idiotic notions of trickle down economics and call it what it is: economic illiteracy. Point out every negative growth point for this country against the rest of the developed world. Salt the earth for Conservatism politically.

Policies? I would like to see a public transport system that brings in minimum standards for operators and nationalises routes if they aren't met, because it's not about ideology but efficiency. A public inquiry not just on Covid but the process where sweetheart deals were doled out to donors and MP's mates. I'd like to see the party say that they will do whatever is fair on upper tax rates according to the economy and the country's needs, instead of automatically ruling out any rise for the wealthiest so any change looks like a U-turn, and a beefed up tax department that will go after offenders regardless of size. An NHS that has been built up internally instead of being advertised out as fresh meat to private companies. A housing policy focused on decent, affordable housing on brown field sites, and strict punishments for the people who unlawfully pollute our air and rivers. Because the British people are tired of getting the worst, the British people deserve the best. All of these were normal within living memory, it's ridiculous to pretend otherwise.

But what is really needed is a cultural shift, a different view on Britain, patriotism and what constitutes British Values. I'd like to see Starmer say that while this country will always be Churchill, Shakespeare and the Elizabeths, it's also Pankhurst, Berners-Lee and the Beatles - that the lesson of this is not to look back but forward, not inward but outward. That we're Britain and we can't continue to cower and hide while others run, or grumble around the edges while other countries get things done. That we should be able to meet the standards of any international market including the EU because we're capable of anything when we put our collective minds and will to it. Same with net-zero targets. That we can be a country where success is rewarded and where people can feed their family on a full-time job. That we should be proud of what our ancestors achieved while being unafraid to look at their mistakes. That children in this country should not have to grow up looking up to statues of men who would have enslaved them.

Maybe most of all, I'd like to hear Labour say this country isn't just the flag and the anthem but the institutions we built, from the BBC to the music industry to the NHS to yes, the Premier League, and the people who work in them. That we as a country are sick of those who would divide us from each other and put barriers up between us and the rest of the world. That if we join together - rich and poor, people of all genders and ethnicities - we can make this the best country possible, where everyone can benefit. And that it isn't about political ideology but this being the best way for things to work.

I don't expect Labour to actually achieve all this but I want to see it try. I want to see it at least act like a better world is possible, instead of spinelessly following the lead of the Conservatives and the Daily Mail, acting like hope is pointless and a slightly better version of this dystopia is the best we can ever hope for.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #132 on: November 9, 2023, 04:55:43 am »
You would win a prize if they actually do any of that.

Problem is Andy that you are relentlessly tribal. You were all over Corbyn on Facebook time and time again for not being strong enough on Brexit. Starmer says he's going to make Brexit work and you're still all over him like he's the second coming.

It's embarrassing.

85% of his members want Proportional Representation. He is actively against implementing it. He is colluding with the lies austerity was built on. He is going to "make Brexit work".

What is there to be optimistic about when you take your tribal support away?

As people on here and, indeed, Facebook will tell you, I'm a massive fan of Brexit.

I'm easily the biggest fan of Brexit there is on this forum. I can't tell you the number of arguments I've had when I've said how fantastic Nigel Frottage is, how intelligent the Brexit voters are, how amazing the Lexit Deeper-Thinkers are and what an entirely marvellous idea the whole thing was.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #133 on: November 9, 2023, 05:08:39 am »
Could have done with some of that passion when Corbyn was in charge to be honest, Andy. Might have got some actual positive policies rather than more of the same with a red rosette on.

I had plenty of passion earlier on for Mr. Corbyn. I was very, very positive about him and his ideas initially. In fact, I'd say that I was pretty excited. I haven't deleted my posts around the time, so you can have a look.

That passion eventually went a bit lukewarm and then I really wanted him gone when I could see that, sadly, he wasn't the man for the job. He did some great things - like getting the youth involved and he deserves credit for plenty of things. Brexit isn't one of them and he eventually turned out to be a bit of a damp squib.

My initial reply to this was also pretty passionate, now deleted. It's not often that I've been accused of NOT being passionate about stuff.

I'm not passionate about Starmer in the same way I was initially passionate about Corbyn, but he's his own man and the party is still there. I want a safe pair of hands. I am sick of 'personality politics' that has been hovering on the left and the right - Corbyn was a populist ideal leader in the same way that people like Johnson is (Though Corbyn clearly is a much better person).

I want a 'safe pair of hands', some 'adults in the room' and 'policies that are thought-out and able to be morphed and changed as required'

Labour have a tough task and even if they achieve miracles then the 'left' and the 'right' and the media will stick the boot in. They literally cannot win.

But as long as they start to lay the path to try and recover this country to be something even worth recovering then that is a good start.

Other people want more 'miracle-y' miracles. Good luck with that. I doubt Corbyn could have delivered those, not that he got into power and actually changed anything. I'd have liked to have seen how he'd got on, but he wasn't up to the job. That's a fact that I guess his supporters will never see or admit.

I'm not a 'supporter' in the traditional sense - I'm not that arsed about the leader generally. I just want a stable party that's going to do some good. Obviously some people believe me to be in the wrong somehow wanting that and I suppose that there's not much I can say in response.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #134 on: November 9, 2023, 07:06:04 am »
I had plenty of passion earlier on for Mr. Corbyn. I was very, very positive about him and his ideas initially. In fact, I'd say that I was pretty excited. I haven't deleted my posts around the time, so you can have a look.

That passion eventually went a bit lukewarm and then I really wanted him gone when I could see that, sadly, he wasn't the man for the job. He did some great things - like getting the youth involved and he deserves credit for plenty of things. Brexit isn't one of them and he eventually turned out to be a bit of a damp squib.

My initial reply to this was also pretty passionate, now deleted. It's not often that I've been accused of NOT being passionate about stuff.

I'm not passionate about Starmer in the same way I was initially passionate about Corbyn, but he's his own man and the party is still there. I want a safe pair of hands. I am sick of 'personality politics' that has been hovering on the left and the right - Corbyn was a populist ideal leader in the same way that people like Johnson is (Though Corbyn clearly is a much better person).

I want a 'safe pair of hands', some 'adults in the room' and 'policies that are thought-out and able to be morphed and changed as required'

Labour have a tough task and even if they achieve miracles then the 'left' and the 'right' and the media will stick the boot in. They literally cannot win.

But as long as they start to lay the path to try and recover this country to be something even worth recovering then that is a good start.

Other people want more 'miracle-y' miracles. Good luck with that. I doubt Corbyn could have delivered those, not that he got into power and actually changed anything. I'd have liked to have seen how he'd got on, but he wasn't up to the job. That's a fact that I guess his supporters will never see or admit.

I'm not a 'supporter' in the traditional sense - I'm not that arsed about the leader generally. I just want a stable party that's going to do some good. Obviously some people believe me to be in the wrong somehow wanting that and I suppose that there's not much I can say in response.

This response is also dripping with the lies that austerity was built on. They've done an excellent number on you.

They don't have a "difficult job". They have loads of easy wins (which they won't use) that would improve people's lives quickly. And no, it's not an issue that "the money isn't there" because public money doesn't work like that, and talking to people like it does is, as I keep saying, one of the lies that austerity was built on.

It is not 'safe pair of hands' or 'grown ups in the room' stuff to lie about how public finances work. It is more of the same. It is Rishi's "maxed out the credit card" analogy.

You talk about the Labour government of 97 and how that changed loves for the better, and while overall I have lots of issues with Tony Blair it's clear that he did do that.

But he took over an economy in bad shape and improved lives quickly, he didn't argue it was difficult to do that because of the mess the previous government left him.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #135 on: November 9, 2023, 08:33:59 am »
This response is also dripping with the lies that austerity was built on. They've done an excellent number on you.





You talk about the Labour government of 97 and how that changed loves for the better, and while overall I have lots of issues with Tony Blair it's clear that he did do that.

But he took over an economy in bad shape and improved lives quickly, he didn't argue it was difficult to do that because of the mess the previous government left him.

Think Blair’s administration inherited a relatively healthy economy (primarily it was years of sleaze that seen the end of the Tories in 1997), although to be fair labour built on that.

https://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/economic-record-of-gordon-brown.html?m=1

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #136 on: November 9, 2023, 09:04:05 am »
This response is also dripping with the lies that austerity was built on. They've done an excellent number on you.

They don't have a "difficult job". They have loads of easy wins (which they won't use) that would improve people's lives quickly. And no, it's not an issue that "the money isn't there" because public money doesn't work like that, and talking to people like it does is, as I keep saying, one of the lies that austerity was built on.

It is not 'safe pair of hands' or 'grown ups in the room' stuff to lie about how public finances work. It is more of the same. It is Rishi's "maxed out the credit card" analogy.

You talk about the Labour government of 97 and how that changed loves for the better, and while overall I have lots of issues with Tony Blair it's clear that he did do that.

But he took over an economy in bad shape and improved lives quickly, he didn't argue it was difficult to do that because of the mess the previous government left him.

Blair actually committed to keeping to the Tories’ position on spending and income tax. At the time leftists were saying it was more of the same and that he was a red Tory. In the end Blair and Brown showed that if you’re competent and your priorities are in the right place you can achieve great things without borrowing huge amounts. They spent a lot on public services because they kept inflation and interest rates under control while the economy still grew. The kind of “boring” offer that Starmer is making now.

Starmer intends to do the same. Whether he succeeds we’ll see. Calling them the same as the Tories is trite and wrong. The Tories thank you for repeating that lie.

The other criticism I don’t get is Starmer acknowledging that Brexit has happened and trying to do the best with that reality. Corbyn failed miserably to make the case for Remain as Labour leader before the referendum and he was the first person to call for us to invoke article 50 the day after, so let’s not pretend that the far left have anything to offer here.  The referendum went the wrong way and the Tories won another election where Brexit was a live issue. We might not like what the British public did but they did it. Starmer committing to making Brexit work doesn’t mean he supports Brexit, it is simply an acknowledgment of reality.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #137 on: November 9, 2023, 10:03:38 am »
Labour have always had a much rougher and harder time being seen as economically competent by the UK media. It's plans and ideas for the future and how those are being paid for are much for forensically examined by the media, The City, businesses and the press than the tories are.

'It's the economy, stupid' is not a soundbite it is reality and the cornerstone of electability for Labour. Therefore Starmer and in particular Rachel Reeves have excellently showcased their economic credibility. Their plan for economic growth and working with businesses tell us this. But to get in power you need to be seen an economically credible. It is the only way.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #138 on: November 9, 2023, 11:36:18 am »
Labour have always had a much rougher and harder time being seen as economically competent by the UK media. It's plans and ideas for the future and how those are being paid for are much for forensically examined by the media, The City, businesses and the press than the tories are.

'It's the economy, stupid' is not a soundbite it is reality and the cornerstone of electability for Labour. Therefore Starmer and in particular Rachel Reeves have excellently showcased their economic credibility. Their plan for economic growth and working with businesses tell us this. But to get in power you need to be seen an economically credible. It is the only way.


It was never economic credibility the right-wing media wanted. It was Labour's adoption of right-of-centre 'corporate capitalism'. They equated the two, but it's a total misnomer.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #139 on: November 9, 2023, 12:34:36 pm »
This response is also dripping with the lies that austerity was built on. They've done an excellent number on you.

They don't have a "difficult job". They have loads of easy wins (which they won't use) that would improve people's lives quickly. And no, it's not an issue that "the money isn't there" because public money doesn't work like that, and talking to people like it does is, as I keep saying, one of the lies that austerity was built on.

It is not 'safe pair of hands' or 'grown ups in the room' stuff to lie about how public finances work. It is more of the same. It is Rishi's "maxed out the credit card" analogy.

You talk about the Labour government of 97 and how that changed loves for the better, and while overall I have lots of issues with Tony Blair it's clear that he did do that.

But he took over an economy in bad shape and improved lives quickly, he didn't argue it was difficult to do that because of the mess the previous government left him.

If you honestly think that Politics in this country hasn't gone completely down the shitter and you think that the economy hasn't absolute tanked and you think that Brexit hasn't fucked us for the forseeable future and you can't see that we need some actual politicians and political parties to do their actual fucking job, then there isn't much I can say.
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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #140 on: November 9, 2023, 12:39:29 pm »
I'm not sure where you've got the idea I'm far left, pro-Brexit or desperate for 'radical change'. As I said, I'm a realist while you seem to be more of a political dreamer. Perhaps you're right and Starmer and Reeves will pull a bait and switch to left-wing policies when they get in power, but I have grave doubts.

This is what I think is more likely:

Labour get in and Starmer says that while some may want him to spend money, the election result is a mandate for low spending and fiscal conservatism, and that he would be betraying the electorate (including you and Andy) if he did that. Instead, he'll frame the decision to do almost nothing as 'a tough decision', and in five years time "Wait until they get in power" will be "Wait until the second term" and "Don't you want to kick the Tories out?" will be "Don't you want to keep the Tories out?" In the second term, faced with either an authoritarian, bureaucratic party that always sides with the wealthy, or a virtually fascist party that explicitly sides with the wealthy, working class voters will begin leaving in droves for more populist choices, at which point Labour will panic and shift right to try and chase Tory votes, pushing them and the Overton window as a whole even further rightward.

Do you know what I'd like to see?

It doesn't have to be radical socialism. I'd like to see Starmer attack Conservatism - not the failure of our housing policy, our polluted rivers, Brexit and its effect on small businesses, child poverty rates or the deterioration of the transport system and the NHS - but the failure of Conservatism as the idea that ties it all together. Stop just going along with idiotic notions of trickle down economics and call it what it is: economic illiteracy. Point out every negative growth point for this country against the rest of the developed world. Salt the earth for Conservatism politically.

Policies? I would like to see a public transport system that brings in minimum standards for operators and nationalises routes if they aren't met, because it's not about ideology but efficiency. A public inquiry not just on Covid but the process where sweetheart deals were doled out to donors and MP's mates. I'd like to see the party say that they will do whatever is fair on upper tax rates according to the economy and the country's needs, instead of automatically ruling out any rise for the wealthiest so any change looks like a U-turn, and a beefed up tax department that will go after offenders regardless of size. An NHS that has been built up internally instead of being advertised out as fresh meat to private companies. A housing policy focused on decent, affordable housing on brown field sites, and strict punishments for the people who unlawfully pollute our air and rivers. Because the British people are tired of getting the worst, the British people deserve the best. All of these were normal within living memory, it's ridiculous to pretend otherwise.

But what is really needed is a cultural shift, a different view on Britain, patriotism and what constitutes British Values. I'd like to see Starmer say that while this country will always be Churchill, Shakespeare and the Elizabeths, it's also Pankhurst, Berners-Lee and the Beatles - that the lesson of this is not to look back but forward, not inward but outward. That we're Britain and we can't continue to cower and hide while others run, or grumble around the edges while other countries get things done. That we should be able to meet the standards of any international market including the EU because we're capable of anything when we put our collective minds and will to it. Same with net-zero targets. That we can be a country where success is rewarded and where people can feed their family on a full-time job. That we should be proud of what our ancestors achieved while being unafraid to look at their mistakes. That children in this country should not have to grow up looking up to statues of men who would have enslaved them.

Maybe most of all, I'd like to hear Labour say this country isn't just the flag and the anthem but the institutions we built, from the BBC to the music industry to the NHS to yes, the Premier League, and the people who work in them. That we as a country are sick of those who would divide us from each other and put barriers up between us and the rest of the world. That if we join together - rich and poor, people of all genders and ethnicities - we can make this the best country possible, where everyone can benefit. And that it isn't about political ideology but this being the best way for things to work.

I don't expect Labour to actually achieve all this but I want to see it try. I want to see it at least act like a better world is possible, instead of spinelessly following the lead of the Conservatives and the Daily Mail, acting like hope is pointless and a slightly better version of this dystopia is the best we can ever hope for.
I think the Starmer Labour party critics who attack Labour are being influenced by the far left, they are given arguments to attack Labour by the far left and repeat those arguments without question, Trickle down economics? where did you get that argument to attack Starmer, Starmers attacked trickle down economics as a piss take. following the Torys and the Daily Mail has also been used to attack Labour.
Do you think Labour have to disagree with the Torys on everything. that's absurd, it's not Labour agreeing with the Torys, Labour have their views, if the Torys believe the same then fine I would say that's a good thing most of the time. the insinuation your making is the Torys have forced Labour to hold these views which isn't true.
 
  I think a lot of decent people have been influenced by people on the web, people they would look at as cranks if it wasn't for the web giving them credibility, it's the reason why so many older people are so opposed to them, they know them from old and what their aims are, take away the web and most people influenced by them today would be doing what the majority of people did in the past, ignore then as nutters. I never said you are far left or supported Brexit but you are being influenced by the far left, you called me a dreamer for defending the Labour party. the attitude is I have to prove what the Labour party stands for otherwise am a dreamer, that shows how bad things have got and the effect of the left on others.
Is that how it works now, Labour party members and supporters reserve judgement on whether the current Labour leadership is no better than the Torys until they've argued for policys they want. it's about the intentions of the Labour party, policies matter but the difference between the Torys and Labour has always been the same since the Labour party was formed. the Torys intention is to screw you in every way possible, Labours intention is to help you in every way possible, the policys that bring this about will come as they always do, am not a dreamer for holding these views, every true Labour supporter believes the same.

A realist would be more realistic and therefore more fair, you've come up with a big wish list there for radical change, placing it all on Starmers shoulders as a standard he must achieve other wise he's not true Labour, am sure Labour will address a lot of these things as well but what about all the other previous Labour leaders who never introduced these things were they not true Labour either. don't get me wrong I would support some of these changes and argue for them but I wouldn't attack the current Labour party leadership unfairly using them as ammo.

 Starmer cant be personally held responsible for a cultural change in attitudes. again this where the left do more harm than good making there all as bad as each other argument by calling me a dreamer for believing in the Labour party without absolute proof of their policys before each election. Labour will argue in support of these values when they are brought up, the Torys won't that's for sure but I think all the Shakespere, Beatles stuff are just a fillers that has nothing to do with Labour or politics. nice but not something that would make me clap at a rally.
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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #141 on: November 9, 2023, 12:55:32 pm »
where did you get that argument to attack Starmer, Starmers attacked trickle down economics as a piss take. following the Torys and the Daily Mail has also been used to attack Labour.


Ive not read all your post OF as Ive a Gas man in the house,

but for the above it was when Starmer said to help the most vulnerable we need to grow the economy.
The most vulnerable are often not part of the economy, so its trickle down economics.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #142 on: November 9, 2023, 12:59:44 pm »
Ive not read all your post OF as Ive a Gas man in the house,

but for the above it was when Starmer said to help the most vulnerable we need to grow the economy.
The most vulnerable are often not part of the economy, so its trickle down economics.

I'm not sure I follow how growing an economy that is clearly on its knees and clearly is going to get much worse, which clearly will have the effect of dragging more people into poverty equates to 'trickle down economics'

Are you saying that the UK is better off with a failed economy? How is that a positive thing?

I'm not an expert on Economics (Is anyone? :) ) so if you can explain what you mean, then I'd appreciate it mate.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #143 on: November 9, 2023, 01:15:21 pm »
I'm not sure I follow how growing an economy that is clearly on its knees and clearly is going to get much worse, which clearly will have the effect of dragging more people into poverty equates to 'trickle down economics'



I'm not an expert on Economics (Is anyone? :) ) so if you can explain what you mean, then I'd appreciate it mate.

Ill end up repeating myself, but, the most vulnerable in society are not economically active, how does a waitikng for growth help them?

mate can you stop asking stupid questions like this
Quote
Are you saying that the UK is better off with a failed economy? How is that a positive thing?

Its annoying  :-*
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #144 on: November 9, 2023, 01:26:28 pm »
Ill end up repeating myself, but, the most vulnerable in society are not economically active, how does a waitikng for growth help them?

mate can you stop asking stupid questions like this
Its annoying  :-*


I'm honestly not being funny mate. The economy is fucked. The UK is fucked. You are saying that Starmer saying he wants to grow the economy and make it less fucked is a bad thing?

Assuming that Labour turn the economy around and make the UK a not-failed-state (Which it clearly is at present) then how does that then turn into trickle down economics?

I watched him on Wednesday having a go at the Tories for even the idea of it. This is what he said in the conference in Liverpool:

“An economy that works for the whole country is what the British people want,” Starmer told his party’s annual conference in Liverpool, England. But, he added, the governing Conservative Party was instead focusing on “trickle-down nonsense, that sees wealth trickle up and jobs trickle out.”

“Those ideas are finished, blown away by a world where tyrants like (Russian President Vladimir) Putin pay little regard to the niceties of market dogma. But also because in the end, they always make working people pay,” Starmer said. (Reporting by Alistair Smout and Andrew MacAskill, writing by Sachin Ravikumar; editing by William James)

What part of that makes you think that he's in favour of it? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds to me like he thinks it's shite?


He said this as well. Him calling it a literal 'piss take' doesn't sound like he's in favour of it? How am I reading someone saying something is a piss-take is then saying it's great? That's mental isn't it?

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/keir-starmer-trickle-down-economics-b2174790.html


He also said this in the HoC to our alleged 'Prime Minister' who looked very uncomfortable.



Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #145 on: November 9, 2023, 01:27:50 pm »
Ill end up repeating myself, but, the most vulnerable in society are not economically active, how does a waitikng for growth help them?
The government needs a larger economy to increase its tax income and therefore its spending power on policies for the most vulnerable.

Inevitably though after 13 years of Tory rule we've ended up in the situation that things are so bad that the help needs to come before, and potentially without, economic growth.  That means a change of priorities from the government in how they spend what they do have.  We're not (yet) a complete basket case where our economy and tax income can't cover the necessities, it's more that we've become accustomed to governments that punch down.

It might well be a drop in the ocean but I'd like to see a Labour government withdraw all the schemes that help people to buy properties and invest that into the most vulnerable as an immediate way to help out.  The housing market needs to correct instead of being constantly propped up and schemes that only help a small percentage of young people - disproportionately those with already healthy incomes and/or deposits - don't tackle the underlying issue.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #146 on: November 9, 2023, 01:32:21 pm »
I'm not sure I follow how growing an economy that is clearly on its knees and clearly is going to get much worse, which clearly will have the effect of dragging more people into poverty equates to 'trickle down economics'

Are you saying that the UK is better off with a failed economy? How is that a positive thing?

I'm not an expert on Economics (Is anyone? :) ) so if you can explain what you mean, then I'd appreciate it mate.

Depends on the reading of it - if it means grow economy = more profits = better salaries then trickle down

If growing the economy creates a greater tax take and can be used to improve services, benefits etc then it isn't

Different people will interpret what Starmer intended differently I'd presume

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #147 on: November 9, 2023, 01:35:13 pm »
The government needs a larger economy to increase its tax income and therefore its spending power on policies for the most vulnerable.


I guess the opposing view would be that rather than keeping the same tax rates with the distant promise of 'growing the economy' the government could and should do the same thing by raising taxes on the present economy.

I'm not an economist and so cannot comment on the comparative merits of the two approaches. My understanding is that it is not a settled question whether by raising taxes inhibits growth/economic activity to the extent that it does more harm than good. Most people I have contact who have a strong opinion either way seem to see it in ideological terms rather than in economic science terms.

The fallout from the Truss/Kwarteng budget shows the risks of trying to do too much too quickly based on ideology.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #148 on: November 9, 2023, 01:45:20 pm »
Depends on the reading of it - if it means grow economy = more profits = better salaries then trickle down

If growing the economy creates a greater tax take and can be used to improve services, benefits etc then it isn't

Different people will interpret what Starmer intended differently I'd presume

Well Starmer literally called Trickle-down-economics 'a piss-take'

So I honestly must be missing something if people think that he's all for it?
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #149 on: November 9, 2023, 01:50:20 pm »
Ive not read all your post OF as Ive a Gas man in the house,

but for the above it was when Starmer said to help the most vulnerable we need to grow the economy.
The most vulnerable are often not part of the economy, so its trickle down economics.
:shocked
The Trickle down economy theory/bullshit is about allowing the rich to get Richer as they will have more money available to give to the workers below them. it will drip down the ladder as they say. believe it or not the only Labour MP/Leader ive heard making this argument is Corbyn a few years ago but I doubt if he realised it at the time, I mentioned it at the time as well as it shocked me, he made the argument to attack the EU, how EU tariffs to poorer countrys should be lowered, the bosses of these big companies would have more money to pay their workers if this happened. he was arguing all those Billionaire Asian bosses who run those sweat shops paying their workers peanuts would pay their workers more if they made bigger profits.
Growing the economy has nothing to do with drip down economics, no idea where you got that from. Growing the economy means helping Companies to sell more, it's about the government receiving more revenue to spend, this what Labour means when they say they will grow the Economy, they will have more money to spend as the Economy grows.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2023, 01:56:34 pm by oldfordie »
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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #150 on: November 9, 2023, 01:56:36 pm »
I'm honestly not being funny mate. The economy is fucked. The UK is fucked. You are saying that Starmer saying he wants to grow the economy and make it less fucked is a bad thing?

Assuming that Labour turn the economy around and make the UK a not-failed-state (Which it clearly is at present) then how does that then turn into trickle down economics?

I watched him on Wednesday having a go at the Tories for even the idea of it. This is what he said in the conference in Liverpool:

“An economy that works for the whole country is what the British people want,” Starmer told his party’s annual conference in Liverpool, England. But, he added, the governing Conservative Party was instead focusing on “trickle-down nonsense, that sees wealth trickle up and jobs trickle out.”

“Those ideas are finished, blown away by a world where tyrants like (Russian President Vladimir) Putin pay little regard to the niceties of market dogma. But also because in the end, they always make working people pay,” Starmer said. (Reporting by Alistair Smout and Andrew MacAskill, writing by Sachin Ravikumar; editing by William James)

What part of that makes you think that he's in favour of it? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds to me like he thinks it's shite?


He said this as well. Him calling it a literal 'piss take' doesn't sound like he's in favour of it? How am I reading someone saying something is a piss-take is then saying it's great? That's mental isn't it?

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/keir-starmer-trickle-down-economics-b2174790.html


He also said this in the HoC to our alleged 'Prime Minister' who looked very uncomfortable.

Your building a strawman Andy, Ive not said that a good economy isnt good or that it isnt helpful to most in the country.

He was asked - If you get in power how will you start to help the most vulnerable in society

The most vulnerable in society are generally not economically active, thats who we are discussing, not Joe Bloggs who work in Cammell Lairds or Littlewoods.



As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #151 on: November 9, 2023, 02:00:23 pm »
Well Starmer literally called Trickle-down-economics 'a piss-take'

So I honestly must be missing something if people think that he's all for it?

That comes down to people's level of trust in what he says I think. For what it's worth, I am inclined toward your reading of it but just going off what I have seen people say in their assessment of his leadership so far there is a clear issue in terms of how people perceive him and his integrity.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #152 on: November 9, 2023, 02:07:02 pm »
I guess the opposing view would be that rather than keeping the same tax rates with the distant promise of 'growing the economy' the government could and should do the same thing by raising taxes on the present economy.

I'm not an economist and so cannot comment on the comparative merits of the two approaches. My understanding is that it is not a settled question whether by raising taxes inhibits growth/economic activity to the extent that it does more harm than good. Most people I have contact who have a strong opinion either way seem to see it in ideological terms rather than in economic science terms.

The fallout from the Truss/Kwarteng budget shows the risks of trying to do too much too quickly based on ideology.
I've thought for some time that taxes should be higher.  The attack line - whilst funny because it's aimed at the Tories - that we have the highest taxes since WWII ignores the realities of where we are as a country right now:
- Excluded from our previously largest trading bloc.  That it was self-imposed is a moot point, if we had been kicked out I am very confident that taxes would have been increased as the government could have easily laid the blame elsewhere.
- Coming off the back of a pandemic that cost the country hundreds of £billions.
- Involved in a (proxy) war with Russia on European territory.

Like you I'm not an economist so I don't know at what point simply raising taxes becomes self-defeating.  Taxing the lower-to-middle classes more to then pay it back to them in government support is a bit pointless.  Tax the higher earners too much and we're told they'd all disappear into thin air.  Raise VAT too much and people buy less.  Raise corporation tax too far and businesses invest elsewhere.  My view though is that we're far from that saturation point.

Any tax rises would need to be accompanied by some quite cast iron promises of how that extra income would be ringfenced and spent.  That would undoubtedly be a challenge for any Labour government as they would immediately open themselves up to attacks from the right wing media and it's likely that even those beneficiaries of the schemes would end up being alienated against the idea.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #153 on: November 9, 2023, 02:13:10 pm »
Your building a strawman Andy, Ive not said that a good economy isnt good or that it isnt helpful to most in the country.

He was asked - If you get in power how will you start to help the most vulnerable in society

The most vulnerable in society are generally not economically active, thats who we are discussing, not Joe Bloggs who work in Cammell Lairds or Littlewoods.





This is a video of him discrediting the Tories over trickle-down-economics - just TWO days ago

In the HoC he said (About trickle-down-economics) TO the Tories opposite him.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/vEfCz62MUXY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/vEfCz62MUXY</a>



“What he have before us is a plan for more of the same. More sticking plasters, more division, more party first, country second gimmicks, and no repudiation of the utterly discredited idea that economic growth is something the few hand down to the many. “


I've provided three sources where he's recently had a go at trickle-down-economics and yet you say that he's for it? Where's your proof? I've provided mine and even a video from two days ago - not to mention the other one from conference where he said it was a literal piss-take.

I must honestly be missing something. There are three occasions where he's spoken against it. I'm sure there are more.
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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #154 on: November 9, 2023, 02:35:41 pm »
This is a video of him  “



Were going round in circles
Q If you get into government how can you help the most vulnerable in society
A By growing the economy

If someone can explain how that directly benefits that demographic, then great

As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #155 on: November 9, 2023, 02:39:52 pm »
Were going round in circles
Q If you get into government how can you help the most vulnerable in society
A By growing the economy

If someone can explain how that directly benefits that demographic, then great



One argument at a time mate :)

You said this

"but for the above it was when Starmer said to help the most vulnerable we need to grow the economy.
The most vulnerable are often not part of the economy, so its trickle down economics."


Starmer is the leader of the Labour Party and I've shown three occasions where he's spoken strongly against it. The latest example of which was two days ago.

So, how is it trickle down economics?
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #156 on: November 9, 2023, 02:44:16 pm »
Were going round in circles
Q If you get into government how can you help the most vulnerable in society
A By growing the economy

If someone can explain how that directly benefits that demographic, then great


More tax revenue = more money for social disbursements.
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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #157 on: November 9, 2023, 02:49:40 pm »
More tax revenue = more money for social disbursements.




People are starving now, so increases taxes now

« Last Edit: November 9, 2023, 02:53:10 pm by Kenny's Jacket »
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #158 on: November 9, 2023, 02:51:39 pm »
Were going round in circles
Q If you get into government how can you help the most vulnerable in society
A By growing the economy

If someone can explain how that directly benefits that demographic, then great

If you grow the economy you get higher tax returns. That gives you the money to increase benefits/funding to public services/fund infrastructure projects and the various other forms of government expenditure that benefits everyone, not just those who are in work.

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Re: NEW Labour Thread* Full of Unicorns and Sunshine and Rainbows :)
« Reply #159 on: November 9, 2023, 02:55:52 pm »
If you grow the economy you get higher tax returns. That gives you the money to increase benefits/funding to public services/fund infrastructure projects and the various other forms of government expenditure that benefits everyone, not just those who are in work.
This is the same convo I had with Dr Beaker.

As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.