Topic: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?

[Kenny's Jacket]

They don't want to vote him out because of his skin colour though it's because he's a c*nt 

As someone who doesn't come from a white family who's walked down the streets of many European countries I can confirm from personal experience that places like Spain, Italy, Portugal, Poland and Ukraine are by far worse.

As someone who has been on holiday to Spain and Italy with a Black lad, ironically called Henry, Id say that correct

[thaddeus]

They don't want to vote him out because of his skin colour though it's because he's a c*nt 

As someone who doesn't come from a white family who's walked down the streets of many European countries I can confirm from personal experience that places like Spain, Italy, Portugal, Poland and Ukraine are by far worse.

My wife is black and French.  She's had more abuse here for speaking to the kids in French than she has for her skin colour, particularly since Cameron kicked off all the Brexit nonsense.

I'm not convinced the UK is less racist that those other countries though, more that there's a simmering lid kept on it.  That simmering lid holds no sway though when it comes to voting (or posting comments on Daily Mail articles...).

London voting in Sadiq Khan is likely reflective of the diversity within London and the elastic effect of their previous mayor being the Tory twat Johnson.

I've not really followed the Begum story that closely recently.  Is she remorseful for her actions when with ISIS?  As I understand it she had a horrible time, particularly towards the end.  Her ill-judged journey started with child grooming so if she's remorseful then I'd like to think she would be given a second chance.

[thejbs]

I genuinely don’t care if she’s remorseful or not (apparently she is). Stripping UK born nationals of their citizenship is absolutely egregious. Especially so when it’s the case of a minor who has been groomed, brainwashed and trafficked. At 14/15 she was a child in the eyes of the law.

All this ruling does is states that what Javid did was not unlawful. However, it doesn’t address that Javid’s decision was abhorrent.

[thejbs]

Seems a tad over the top  Considering the prime minister and the mayor of it's capital aren't white 

Sunak wasn’t voted in by the nation. Khan basically had a 50-50 chance on being elected by virtue of his party - the most popular in London. In 2016 he had a boost post Johnson and strong support among ethnic minorities. Last time, he was running against a black man.

Worth noting the dog whistle racism of Goldsmith’s campaign in 2016 too.

[Nobby Reserve]

My wife is black and French.  She's had more abuse here for speaking to the kids in French than she has for her skin colour, particularly since Cameron kicked off all the Brexit nonsense.

As a total irrelevance, I don't see how anyone couldn't like the sound of a French woman speaking French. They could be reading aloud reports of the day's trading on global stock exchanges and I'd still go all gooey!

[Millie]

Why are you discussing Khan in this thread?

To the matter in hand.  It's currently being discussed on James O"Brien - he believes she was groomed as she was underage.  However, he does add the caveat that we do not know the evidence regarding national security.

I believe that she should not have been stripped of her citizenship by the very vitue of her being groomed.  It's just wrong.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I believe that she should not have been stripped of her citizenship by the very vitue of her being groomed.  It's just wrong.

Im more concerned with the fact her alternative state option is Babladesh, she's never been there and they would likely executed her.

She's British.

[Red Beret]

As a total irrelevance, I don't see how anyone couldn't like the sound of a French woman speaking French. They could be reading aloud reports of the day's trading on global stock exchanges and I'd still go all gooey!

Because Brits are lazy fuckers when it comes to language and it triggers their inferiority complex knowing someone's kids are going to grow up bilingual.

That said, a gal I know had a huge part of her childhood growing up in France. When she was applying for Uni in the UK, they told her she would need to sit an English exam. She said down the phone, "Do I sound like I need to take a bloody English exam!?"

*for the record, she's very clever

[Farman]

If it was exactly the same circumstances, but this was a white girl with the possibility of being able to get, say, an Irish passport, I do wonder if the clamour and outcome would have been the same.

[classycarra]

If it was exactly the same circumstances, but this was a white girl with the possibility of being able to get, say, an Irish passport, I do wonder if the clamour and outcome would have been the same.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/jack-letts-stripped-british-citizenship-isis-canada

[WhereAngelsPlay]

If it was exactly the same circumstances, but this was a white girl with the possibility of being able to get, say, an Irish passport, I do wonder if the clamour and outcome would have been the same.

There's no wonder about it, we'd have taken them back the same way that we've already taken back hundreds.

Scumbags are just using this lass to try and look tough on crime.

About 400 individuals 'of national security concern', including ISIS fighters, have already returned to the UK from Syria and Iraq, although only 40 have been successfully prosecuted, according to UK Home Office figures. There is also the issue of proportionality.

[Sangria]

There's no wonder about it, we'd have taken them back the same way that we've already taken back hundreds.

See above.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

See above.

How about you see above, we've taken hundreds back, hundreds of male isis FIGHTERS, not a young lass who was groomed online though, that would be far too dangerous.

[Jiminy Cricket]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/jack-letts-stripped-british-citizenship-isis-canada

Letts was suffering from mental health issues. So, the mentally ill and groomed school girls are candidates for the having their citizenship stripped of them instead of being tried for suspicion of committing crimes. What a bizarre, little country.

[Farman]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/18/jack-letts-stripped-british-citizenship-isis-canada

15 year old female non-combatant with no second nationality is not the same as this. It actually emphasises the point when you compare the absolute vitriol she’s had come her way with what this fella has had.

[Sangria]

15 year old female non-combatant with no second nationality is not the same as this. It actually emphasises the point when you compare the absolute vitriol she’s had come her way with what this fella has had.

How much publicity has Jack Letts had?

[Farman]

How much publicity has Jack Letts had?

Again, that supports the point I’m trying to make, this time from the perspective of the media.

[Sangria]

Again, that supports the point I’m trying to make, this time from the perspective of the media.

Isn't it at least somewhat to do with people trying to argue for Begum, thus highlighting her in the public consciousness? If no one spoke up for her, wouldn't she have gone the same way as Letts?

[Farman]

Isn't it at least somewhat to do with people trying to argue for Begum, thus highlighting her in the public consciousness? If no one spoke up for her, wouldn't she have gone the same way as Letts?

You might have better evidence than I do, but it feels to me that the right wing media have latched on to her as a cause celebre for their agenda, as it ticked all the boxes that they want ticked. Reminded me of Abu Hamza…what a gift for them, the world’s least photogenic man, with one eye and a hook for a hand, who was a next-to-nobody but looked exactly like the charicature of the right’s image of Islam. Anyway I digress. I’ve no love for Begum whatsoever, but I remember looking through the Daily Mail’s comments section when news broke that her third baby had died, and never have I been so appalled at the lack of humanity shown on a UK website (and it’s a high bar). There are a lot - a LOT - of feral nobheads that froth at the mouth about this woman, and there’s absolutely no way they would if she was white. To put it bluntly.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Isn't it at least somewhat to do with people trying to argue for Begum, thus highlighting her in the public consciousness? If no one spoke up for her, wouldn't she have gone the same way as Letts?

(Not really directed at you)

I keep on saying this & people keep on ignoring it, why they do that I can only guess but, SHE WAS A FUCKING CHILD, she's also never lived in the country that we're trying to fob her off to, A COUNTRY THAT HAS THE DEATH PENALTY.

She is our problem, end of story.

[west_london_red]

They don't want to vote him out because of his skin colour though it's because he's a c*nt 

As someone who doesn't come from a white family who's walked down the streets of many European countries I can confirm from personal experience that places like Spain, Italy, Portugal, Poland and Ukraine are by far worse.

100% this, as much as this country pisses me off at times I can’t emphasise enough how much easier it is being non-white in this country compared to any other I have been to in Europe, it’s not perfect here don’t get me wrong but it’s miles ahead of the rest of Europe.

[killer-heels]

Yeah even I would have to admit this shit hole is less racist than many a European nation. I refuse to holiday in Spain due to the racist abuse some friends of mine have received during a couple of holidays there.

[west_london_red]

Yeah even I would have to admit this shit hole is less racist than many a European nation. I refuse to holiday in Spain due to the racist abuse some friends of mine have received during a couple of holidays there.

It is, but at the same time this case is particularly worrying. People keep going on about her age and that she was groomed but I really don’t give a shit about that, what bothers me is if a white British 15 year does what Begum did she doesn’t lose her passport, it’s basically telling all of us whose parents were born abroad that we’re not the same as the rest of you, that ultimately we’re still guests here to be sent back to where our parents came from if we step out of line, that we’re still second class citizens without permanence even if we were born here.

[Sangria]

(Not really directed at you)

I keep on saying this & people keep on ignoring it, why they do that I can only guess but, SHE WAS A FUCKING CHILD, she's also never lived in the country that we're trying to fob her off to, A COUNTRY THAT HAS THE DEATH PENALTY.

She is our problem, end of story.

And to clarify my point, I don't agree or disagree that this is our problem and not Bangladesh's. I'm disputing the argument that this is a white/brown issue. I think that Begum gets so much shite not because she's brown, but because she's publicised, and part of that publicity is people arguing for her. If she were forgotten about like Letts, she'd be forgotten about like Letts, regardless of her colour.

[RedDeadRejection]

And to clarify my point, I don't agree or disagree that this is our problem and not Bangladesh's. I'm disputing the argument that this is a white/brown issue. I think that Begum gets so much shite not because she's brown, but because she's publicised, and part of that publicity is people arguing for her. If she were forgotten about like Letts, she'd be forgotten about like Letts, regardless of her colour.

I think its because she's brown and that colour and her story is being used by the bigots for culture war cultivation. It works too, depressingly. She's absolutely perfect for their needs.

[bigbonedrawky]

It is, but at the same time this case is particularly worrying. People keep going on about her age and that she was groomed but I really don’t give a shit about that, what bothers me is if a white British 15 year does what Begum did she doesn’t lose her passport, it’s basically telling all of us whose parents were born abroad that we’re not the same as the rest of you, that ultimately we’re still guests here to be sent back to where our parents came from if we step out of line, that we’re still second class citizens without permanence even if we were born here.

I remember a similar discussion with a poster on here who thought born in britain but to foreign parents made you 50% British. I always thought I was British but my father wasn't british and what makes it more confusing is my mother who like me was born here, was only half English...
Not sure what that makes me  25% British citizen I think 
It reminded me of the old "If an African Elephant is born in London Zoo"...You know the rest .

[WhereAngelsPlay]

And to clarify my point, I don't agree or disagree that this is our problem and not Bangladesh's. I'm disputing the argument that this is a white/brown issue. I think that Begum gets so much shite not because she's brown, but because she's publicised, and part of that publicity is people arguing for her. If she were forgotten about like Letts, she'd be forgotten about like Letts, regardless of her colour.

It's a 100% because of the tone of her skin and the reason why it is and was such a big story is that 3 young school girls ran away to join them.

Letts on the other hand was 19yrs old. I also think it's bullshit that we removed his citizenship, at least we weren't sending him to a country that has the death penalty, something that isn't supposed to happen.

I don't even care what she has done or said, that's a totally different discussion.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It is, but at the same time this case is particularly worrying. People keep going on about her age and that she was groomed but I really don’t give a shit about that, what bothers me is if a white British 15 year does what Begum did she doesn’t lose her passport, it’s basically telling all of us whose parents were born abroad that we’re not the same as the rest of you, that ultimately we’re still guests here to be sent back to where our parents came from if we step out of line, that we’re still second class citizens without permanence even if we were born here.

Exactly, they've don't give a flying fuck how it makes people like yourself feel though mate, especially in an election year.

[GreatEx]

I was born in Liverpool and emigrated to Australia at 6 weeks. I've never been asked where I "really" come from, or "ok but what about your ancestors?" or anything like that. I guess Australia is just a more open and accepting country, yeah, that's it.

[capt k]

I was born in Liverpool and emigrated to Australia at 6 weeks. I've never been asked where I "really" come from, or "ok but what about your ancestors?" or anything like that. I guess Australia is just a more open and accepting country, yeah, that's it.

similar to you, born in Liverpool came here at 10, used to get plenty of stick over my accent but vary rarely if ever was it malicious, as you say Aust is more open and accepting .

[GreatEx]

Maybe I only drizzled the sarcasm on my post when an oozing mess was called for . I think Australia is overall a strong multicultural society that gets undue stick from the Brits, but non-white Australians absolutely do cop the "where are you REALLY from" treatment all the time. At the governmental level we're pretty awful, with deportation to countries of ancestral (not personal) origin a disturbingly common response to criminal conviction, and of course the indefinite offshore detention thing.

[Fortneef]

I think its against the international laws against statelessness to strip someone of citizenship if they dont official have another citizenship. Qualifying for another but not having isnt good enough - the other state could refuse.

We made Begum, shes our problem.

[Fortneef]

Am I correct in my understanding that the security reasons for the withdrawl of her citizenship were given in a behind closed doors hearing and have never been made public? If that's the case then none of us are in a position to judge the decision.

If shes really an dire ongoing threat why is she alive?

[west_london_red]

similar to you, born in Liverpool came here at 10, used to get plenty of stick over my accent but vary rarely if ever was it malicious, as you say Aust is more open and accepting .

I’m guessing that’s because you’re white? I worked with loads of Australians a few years ago, and while they were all sound, they were pretty clear on how racist the country is, one of them specifically siting it as a reason for them migrating to the UK, and another one of Christian Lebanese descent having to change his name to an Anglo Saxon name because his Arabic name was a barrier to getting a job in Australia.

[Brissyred]

Maybe I only drizzled the sarcasm on my post when an oozing mess was called for . I think Australia is overall a strong multicultural society that gets undue stick from the Brits, but non-white Australians absolutely do cop the "where are you REALLY from" treatment all the time. At the governmental level we're pretty awful, with deportation to countries of ancestral (not personal) origin a disturbingly common response to criminal conviction, and of course the indefinite offshore detention thing.

I emigrated here when I was 32, I'm white, I get asked where I'm from at least once a day...

[thejbs]

I’ve met quite a few liberal and otherwise lovely Spaniards who’ve shocked me with their casual racism. In particular, towards people of Asian descent.

[GreatEx]

I emigrated here when I was 32, I'm white, I get asked where I'm from at least once a day...

It's a bit different if you have an accent. How many people ask you before you open your mouth?

[west_london_red]

It's a bit different if you have an accent. How many people ask you before you open your mouth?

This is always an odd one because it depends on how people ask the question, it’s can be asked in a genuinely inquisitive and friendly way or it can be asked in an aggressive way. I was born in the UK but if someone asks me where I’m from my default answer is usually “my parents are from India” because you can usually tell that’s what they really want to know so why not just give them the answer, it’s not something to be ashamed of.

[Jiminy Cricket]

This is always an odd one because it depends on how people ask the question, it’s can be asked in a genuinely inquisitive and friendly way or it can be asked in an aggressive way. I was born in the UK but if someone asks me where I’m from my default answer is usually “my parents are from India” because you can usually tell that’s what they really want to know so why not just give them the answer, it’s not something to be ashamed of.

Funnily enough, many, many years ago, on a night out with the lads, I was approached by an attractive woman. I initially thought she was chatting me up. Nope. She asked if was I Irish? 'Well, my parents are from Ireland', I responded. With that, she was off back to her mates. 'Yep. Irish'. It seems that there had been some kind of debate/bet about her being able to recognise Irish people. So, milky white people get it occasionally too.

But I am with you. Surely, even if a bit presumptive, awkward, and indicative of some unworldliness, most people asking you this question are probably just trying to be nice. But in the case of accents, the question is more understandable. I got it rather a lot when I lived in the US. And I was once complimented by a Mexican US immigrant on the standard of my English, presumably, not realising that we speak English in the United Kingdom (perhaps I should have said that 'I am from England'). I was somewhat lost for words.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Your green top hat and tails would've given it away jiminy.