Author Topic: This team needs a kick up the arse  (Read 18439 times)

Offline lachesis

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This team needs a kick up the arse
« on: January 22, 2008, 10:09:32 am »
You know, Bill Shankly made himself in the image of Vince Lombardi. Indeed, Shankly's most widely quoted quip owes it's airing to the inspiration of the American football coach:

Quote from: Bill Shankly/Vince Lombardi
"Football is not a matter of life and. death, it’s far more important than that!”

Indeed it was probably from the 1964 tour of America that Shankly learned of the Green Bay Packers due to their recent winning media coverage. Both of these, men who took control of clubs and made them more that could be imagined under their leadership. Built in their image and founded on their passion, both Liverpool and the Green Bay packers were catapulted from relative obscurity firmly into the limelight. Both men did not stoutly believe in the need for over complication of how to win a game:

Quote from: Bill Shankly
“A lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are.”

Quote from: Vince Lombardi
“Coaches who can outline plays on a black board are a dime a dozen. The ones who win get inside their player and motivate.”

The similarities between the two are amazing, in terms of leaderships, their socialist approach to games:

Quote from: Bill Shankly
“The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That's how I see football, that's how I see life.”

Quote from: Vince Lombardi
“People who work together will win, whether it be against complex football defenses, or the problems of modern society.”

right down to their influence on their teams colours and kit. Shankly with the famous red kit which is now synonmous around Europe, and Lombardi with the green and gold monopoly.

Both sports have changed immeasurably since these mens time, both sports with global appeal, both areas where the sport is secondary to investment and marketing. Is there any room in todays game for those honest players who are comitted, passionate and fight for every game? There's a political argument that socialistic thinking and men make the best football managers, with todays society consisting of selfishness and moral values abandoned, with the revolving manager door swinging every 10 minutes - one has to wonder if this approach is still prevalent in all but a few managers.

Football Managers like Jock Stein, Bill Shankly, Brian Clough, Peter Taylor even Alex Ferguson are all old school socialists. A modern day equivalent would be someone like Paul Jewell, who still has a lot to prove but in my opinion has a great chance to go onto bigger and better things.

If anything, these managers have instilled their identity and ideas within their teams, coupled with passion and a fighting mentality that saw them exponentially in most cases become larger than the sum of their parts.

It's no secret that Rafael Benitez has come under criticism from some quarters of the Anfield faithful for being over complicated, analytic and preoccupied with his opponents threats rather than concentrating on his own teams strengths.

This is all fine, and even the small games need a tactical approach on how best to break down a 5 man midfield or the best way to move a team about by square passing before delivering the killer touch, but do we, as a team lack the motivating and mental assurance/arrogance that the likes of Wenger, Ferguson and Mourinho instilled in their teams. Humble champions is a phrase never uttered in football and it's for a reason. Champions and winners don't have to answer to anyone, they go out with a declaration and stamp their authority on their opponents.

This is not beyond our team as we have seen on countless occassions, but all too much we peter out after about 15 minutes with no direction or guidance, and half the players look as though they need a rocket up their arses. Rafa is always talking about the 'team' and it's cohesion, options and fitness. The fact is for all the talking and speaking about instilling the belief that the team is a unit, there is far too much individualism running through our team.

Dirk Kuyt's scoring rate has dropped alarmingly this season, most cynics point this to him being crap or they've been proved right that he isn't Premier League material despite being our highest league scorer in a number of years last season. They don't see he's playing with a selfish strike partner, who although has been a revelation, is not on the cutting edge of clinical and does make bad choices as when it is feasible to shoot and when he should pass.

Torres will learn in time, he has come from Atletico, worshipped as the jewel in their crown and their saviour, their chosen one. Much like Fowler was acclaimed in the mid 90's. He is used to doing things on his own for himself to the benefit of the team. However, this was playing for an Atletico side that was at best mediocre and so his choices often didn't affect the outcomes of games or were not as important when looking back. Of course there are times like Middlesborough away when that will get us points, but there are times when it is detrimental to the team as well.

Not that Torres is the only culprit, but in his case it is easier to highlight. Riise is another one who loves to go it alone, quick glance, no-one within 20 yards, spanked at goal. Gerrard is another, although he has got much better with time and trusting certain team mates. The worrying thing is that for roughly 30 goals scored, we have one player in the assists chart with 7 and that is Gerrard (data taken from http://www.4thegame.com and highlights the top 21 assisting players in the premier league. The list ends at but does not continue past 4)

Then we have the fringe players with intelligence, those like Finnan, Pennant, Kuyt, Alonso who have been so dominated in this team, they are prone to just pass the ball on, be a middle man and give it to the players they feel should be changing the game and then feel their contribution within the team is over, instead of pushing themselves to be included in our matchwinners. Players like Kuyt, Finnan and Alonso especially, who have it within themselves to punch out of the comfort zone they are in at the moment.

Rafa's attack philosophy and mentality is built around 'direct passing', which is quick, accurate and incisive. This doesn't mean 5/6 yard 5-a-sde passes either. A direct pass can be hit 40 yards into the channel for Torres to run onto. It's about scoring goals with the least amount of passing. Which is another problem coursing it's way through our team.

I'm continuing this after last nights result, so this is not a knee jerk reaction but an amalgamation of certain things which look to have reached a plateua in terms of going forward. One statistic everyone points to is the shots for column, with Liverpool always seeming to have a plethora of shots on goal within the game, leaving most people scatching their heads on how we lost. Make no mistake, for me a goal scoring opportunity is about creating a chance so clear, the odds of scoring are firmly weighted in the strikers corner.

Let me take you back to the Man City game, a game which we absolutely put City to the sword and dominated a team that played for a draw. There were not too many clear cut chances created even that night, which leads us onto the praising of Hart. There were perhaps 2 'real' chances in the game which Hart saved well, the rest was meat and drink for a goal keeper in reality, especially from a team that is expecting to push the top two for the title.

Yossi was a summarisation of the problem yesterday, after scoring he couldn't complete a 5 yard pass for the majority of the game, which left him to usually scamper infield along the 18 yard line and lose possession from a tackle. The assist by Kuyt was sweet, and that was because we had some slight movement. Just as the fringe players expect the talents in the team to go solo, as soon as we get a goal, the team seem content to rest on their laurels. We can keep possession, pass square and backwards and have little passages of outstanding one touch passing, but when we hit 20 yards from goal, we hit a brick wall. We are a threat, make no mistake but in real terms, our bark is far worse than our bite.

You see, in teams like Arsenal or United, if their big game players don't step up, then others will attempt to. For example, if Evra was to find Giggs had wandered infield and was not available for a pass, and their was a bit of space in front of him, he would move into it himself. Contrast that to our own team, when there's at least 20 yards for either Finnan or a central defender to move into, and they choose to try and play a 40 yard long pass. This is fine if you have the players to make that sort of pass, but when it is just being hoofed back to the opponents then you have to question this approach.

Where does this leave us then? Does the blame lie with Benitez? It's difficult to call, on the one hand when teams have a go at us, we can really destroy teams, but those who are organised and difficult to break down seem to baffle us, like trying to multiply 45 by 8 will baffle a 10 year old. There seems to be a lot of work done with regards to team covering, and defensive positioning, which in most games completely nullifies our opponents. I wouldn't worry too much about Martin O'Neill, ever since the days of Leceister, he has set his teams out that have been difficult for Liverpool to overcome. I think we need to focus on the finla third now, the intelligence of movement and running, and more importanly work with those players that need it on their decision making because at the moment it is shocking, and therein lies our problem.

What we deem our most influential attacking players, Gerrard, Yossi, Torres, Babel and Pennant to name a few make really bad choices. Part of the mancs success is that they have listened to Ferguson, who is now playing our own brand of football, and has been doing for some time.

"Receive the ball and pass it to someone in a better position", was at the core of our football. Well, that quote there highlights exactly what needs to be done, how often is someone in a better position than ambling past the halfway line, or lining up on the edge of the box, and on those rare occassions we get in behind teams, how many people are in better position in the box that are making themselves available for a pass? Which forces our more influential players to go it alone.

Another area of play where Liverpool are too individual is the pressing of opponents. Villa yesterday, to their credit and to a man, showed how team pressing can work. They never let us settle, and kept pressure on for long periods without making too many real challenges. Again it's in stark contrast to our own team, for example, Mascherano will harry in midfield and forces the ball to go back, Kuyt will close down the defender who plays it wide, and then that's the end of the pressing. Where you would expect Kewell or the left back to be all over the opponent at this point, there is only space and that is why we rarely have concerted pressure but lots of comfortable possession.

At the moment, we are playing in small pockets of players. The defence defends, but the full backs rarely advance to support the attack. The central defenders look to get rid of it by lumping it forward, instead of advancing to meet the midfield, and thus oppress the opponents.

At the moment I see us as a team of components, that don't quite fit together. We are not fluent, and the transition between defence and attack is nowhere near as effective or breathtaking as that of attack to defence. We are not far off, but my greatest fear at the moment is we need a motivator, because when things aren't going right, you need that ability to fight, and bumble a goal in off someones arse, or have the ball ricochet around the box for 3 minutes and eventually go in a la Blueshite - something which we lack at the moment, but Chelsea had.

With the acquisition of one or two key replacements this team can go on to greater things, they have to believe in themselves. More importantly they have to want to believe in themselves, and lastly Benitez needs to believe in his team.

Jorge Valdano said:

Quote from: Jorge Valdano
Chelsea and Liverpool are the clearest, most exaggerated example of the way football is going: very intense, very collective, very tactical, very physical, and very direct,"

"But, a short pass? No. A feint? No. A change of pace? No. A one-two? A nutmeg? A backheel? Don't be ridiculous. None of that.

"If Didier Drogba was the best player in the first match it was purely because he was the one who ran the fastest, jumped the highest and crashed into people the hardest. Such extreme intensity wipes away talent, even leaving a player of Joe Cole's class disoriented. If football is going the way Chelsea and Liverpool are taking it, we had better be ready to wave goodbye to any expression of the cleverness and talent we have enjoyed for a century.

Those who did not have the talent to make it as players do not believe in the talent of players, they do not believe in the ability to improvise in order to win football matches.[/i]

These are strong words, and a warning that may need to be heeded from The Philosopher of football. There was a systematic approach to games from Chelsea and ourselves, and right down to the set piece against Chelsea that Agger scored from, it was as if both Mourinho and Rafa have a book of 'attacks' or 'plays' they instruct the team to use, at which point we can return to one of the above quotes which is:

Quote from: Vince Lombardi
“Coaches who can outline plays on a black board are a dime a dozen. The ones who win get inside their player and motivate.”

And you could never fault Mourinho on that aspect. There are a few things to put right within the team, but we can do worse than start with installing the belief, passion and carmarderie that is missing.







(c) 2008, Lachesis
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 03:03:22 pm by Armin »

Offline lionel_messias

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2008, 10:13:16 am »
Two words:

Confidence.

Coherence.
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Offline Valore

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2008, 10:14:13 am »
While I agree, I'm saving all my best kicks for two yankee arses in particular. Once we've succeeded in that, I'll be more than happy to turn my attention to the arses of our team.
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Offline merseypride

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2008, 10:16:54 am »
While I agree, I'm saving all my best kicks for two yankee arses in particular. Once we've succeeded in that, I'll be more than happy to turn my attention to the arses of our team.

Same here
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Offline smicer07

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2008, 10:20:18 am »
While I agree, I'm saving all my best kicks for two yankee arses in particular. Once we've succeeded in that, I'll be more than happy to turn my attention to the arses of our team.

I just hope the players aren't feeling the same.

Offline WizaRedOfAus

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2008, 10:22:14 am »
Good read, and mostly on the mark.

I think we lack motivation, definitely. But the style of football we play doesn't seem top demand urgency unless we go behind. THe players seem to be looking for motivation that they don;t get elsewhere.
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Offline lfcgeez

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2008, 10:26:12 am »
A good overall summary IMO.

Are you putting the sole blame on Benitez, as if he's restricting certain players from playing their natural game ?
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Offline AussieG

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 10:29:32 am »
best thing ive read in ages.... We were much better last year than this year which makes me ask teh questions, wtf has happened to our general team play. Personally i think rafa plays the wrong game of football for the PL and we will never win it with either him or this group of players. (do stand up for him against these yanks though there just c*nts)

A proper clean out is needed....

Finnan
Riise
Aurellio
Hyppia
Pennant
Momo
Kewell
Kuyt
Voronin

Gone!!

Harsh but its reality!

Offline lachesis

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2008, 10:29:38 am »
A good overall summary IMO.

Are you putting the sole blame on Benitez, as if he's restricting certain players from playing their natural game ?

Not necessarily. I think Rafa knows he needs to slightly adjust his blueprint to be successful in the league, hence the acquisitions of Torres and Babel. The casting aside of Momo and the bringing in of Lucas to fill his place.

However, I think he is loath to abandon what he knows to eb successful but wants to, which results in slightly disjointed performances, but this is where the players have to be big enough to go out and show him what they can do.

He wants to trust them but can't until they show him that they can be let off the leash a bit.

It's like trying to punch yourself in the balls, you're committed until that last final 2cm where you just can't complete.

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2008, 10:30:44 am »
Very nicely put, can't argue with too much of it.
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Offline liverbirduponmychest

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2008, 10:31:40 am »
Im so frustrated by whats happening on and off the pitch. The club as a whole needs a kick up the arse  :butt

Offline Valore

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2008, 10:35:03 am »
best thing ive read in ages.... We were much better last year than this year which makes me ask teh questions, wtf has happened to our general team play. Personally i think rafa plays the wrong game of football for the PL and we will never win it with either him or this group of players. (do stand up for him against these yanks though there just c*nts)

A proper clean out is needed....

Finnan
Riise
Aurellio
Hyppia
Pennant
Momo
Kewell
Kuyt
Voronin

Gone!!

Harsh but its reality!

Your knee must be pretty shit, with all the jerking it must be doing on a daily basis.

Let's disregard off field problems this season.

Let's disregard Rafa's second placed finish in the PL.

Let's disregard the fact Rafa's big buys have been far more successful than most of the other top managers in the PL.

Let's disregard Rafa has only finished below teams that have outspent him exponentially.

In fact, let's just throw fucking sense out of the window, sell all our players, and buy Kaka, Ronaldinho, Messi, CRonaldo, and whoever the fuck else is on your fantasy football team.

I don't know what lunacy goes through some people's minds...
Quote
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- Martin Samuel, after we beat Arsenal 4-2 in the second leg of the CL QF 2007-200

Offline lfcgeez

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2008, 10:35:53 am »
I totally agree with your point on 'letting them off the leash'

It just seems that the players are tending to run out of ideas early on & get rushed / frustrated.

Thats where we need a manager who can step in and give the ideas / motivation or be brave enough to change the system. Far too many times we're waiting for that substitution that would shake things up a bit but as we saw yesterday, they come far too late..

At 1-0 up in the 2nd half, Kewell seemed to disappear yet we waited until 70-odd mins to see Babel !

I think a little bravery and flexibility is needed from Rafa
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Offline DERRYLEGEND

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2008, 10:37:56 am »
yippe my first post, hello everyone

Offline Rushian

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2008, 10:40:56 am »
Undermine the manager and you undermine everything he's trying to accomplish on the pitch. No amount of arse-kicking will make a jot of difference. Tactical analysis becomes meaningless.

That is why you either back him or sack him. There are no shades of grey inbetween.

Hicks and Gillett with their actions ruined our season in November.
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Offline AussieG

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2008, 10:42:19 am »
Your knee must be pretty shit, with all the jerking it must be doing on a daily basis.

Let's disregard off field problems this season.

Let's disregard Rafa's second placed finish in the PL.

Let's disregard the fact Rafa's big buys have been far more successful than most of the other top managers in the PL.

Let's disregard Rafa has only finished below teams that have outspent him exponentially.

In fact, let's just throw fucking sense out of the window, sell all our players, and buy Kaka, Ronaldinho, Messi, CRonaldo, and whoever the fuck else is on your fantasy football team.

I don't know what lunacy goes through some people's minds...

I am not suggesting we go out and buy all those players you mentioned for 1 sec because its just unrealistic. But mate seriously, You cant think that the above mentioned players are able to cut if for LFC. And no one can convince me that the way rafa is coaching this squad a present is going to bring about a premier league title. we are just an average side atm and it burns me up inside!

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2008, 10:42:47 am »
Undermine the manager and you undermine everything he's trying to accomplish on the pitch. No amount of arse-kicking will make a jot of difference. Tactical analysis becomes meaningless.

That is why you either back him or sack him. There are no shades of grey inbetween.

Hicks and Gillett with their actions ruined our season in November.

Quite correct.

Offline PaulMcG

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2008, 10:43:21 am »
I'm a Celtic fan from Glasgow and have not missed a game in 3 years . We would never boo the team off but the football has been so poor this season we drew 1-1 with St Mirren at Celtic Park and 60,000 let the players know we weren't pleased

I think there comes a sage when fans HAVE to boo . The players MUST know the quality of performance is not acceptable . Having watched Liverpool drop daft points against Birmingham , Wigan and now Villa at home that is unacceptable . The players HAVE been affected by off the field stuff but there is no excuse for not killing that game off last night 
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Offline Mal

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2008, 10:44:45 am »
Undermine the manager and you undermine everything he's trying to accomplish on the pitch. No amount of arse-kicking will make a jot of difference. Tactical analysis becomes meaningless.

That is why you either back him or sack him. There are no shades of grey inbetween.

Hicks and Gillett with their actions ruined our season in November.

Quite correct.

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Offline lachesis

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2008, 10:45:05 am »
Undermine the manager and you undermine everything he's trying to accomplish on the pitch. No amount of arse-kicking will make a jot of difference. Tactical analysis becomes meaningless.

Quite correct, but these problems didn't suddenly appear when G&H took over. They are the same problems that have been apparent last season as well. Our home and away form has swapped, that is all.

Of course, people are more willing to accept these views now, just as those are willing to accept now, that Riise is in fact a liability and not a very good left back or winger.

Offline main-stand-molby

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2008, 10:45:42 am »
Quote
Rafa's attack philosophy and mentality is built around 'direct passing', which is quick, accurate and incisive. This doesn't mean 5/6 yard 5-a-sde passes either. A direct pass can be hit 40 yards into the channel for Torres to run onto. It's about scoring goals with the least amount of passing. Which is another problem coursing it's way through our team.

Disagree sorry.  It comes down to players strengths.  If you have Torres you play it in to the channel for him to use his pace.  You have Crouch, you can play through the middle and get players running off him.

The oppossition let our centre backs have the ball as they know their qualities are not bringing the ball out of defence - Agger is the exception, so the longer ball is hit more often.

Player strengths rather than a philosophy.

Offline kyle_07

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2008, 10:49:10 am »
they need a fucking dynamite up thier arse

But watching the match i can't help thinnk that it has alot to do with Rafa's tactics, e.g like when we have the ball on the flanks we rarely ever get more than to heads into the box, a striker will run wide then we are left with one striker and one other player in the box, hitting teams on the break we rarely play through balls to strikers to try and beat the defender we end up direct passing it and then they loose possesion trying to go past the defender.  Look at any of the other top 3 sides and you will rarely ever see this happen, with us ithappens every game and more than once.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 10:53:46 am by kyle_07 »
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Offline Regi

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2008, 10:49:33 am »
Undermine the manager and you undermine everything he's trying to accomplish on the pitch. No amount of arse-kicking will make a jot of difference. Tactical analysis becomes meaningless.

That is why you either back him or sack him. There are no shades of grey inbetween.

Hicks and Gillett with their actions ruined our season in November.

I agree we need to back Rafa, especially now.
However, when this shitstorm dies down, he is going to have to sort out a distinctive style of playing that we can stick with and develop as our own.
The current rigidity in our play is not the road to league success. We are far more easily countered than the other top teams. We need unpredictability, flair and a serious lesson in off-the-ball movement if we are to really challenge.

But the first priority is to smoke out the vermin at the top
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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2008, 10:53:47 am »
I am not suggesting we go out and buy all those players you mentioned for 1 sec because its just unrealistic. But mate seriously, You cant think that the above mentioned players are able to cut if for LFC. And no one can convince me that the way rafa is coaching this squad a present is going to bring about a premier league title. we are just an average side atm and it burns me up inside!

What burns you up inside? The crack going through your veins? FFS man, what gives you the divine insight to conclude that the poor performances of the moment are down to Rafa's coaching? And of the list of players you've made, there are several points I would like to point out.

1. Half of them aren't even Rafa's buys.
2. Players like Hyppia and Finnan are not shite. You're one of the few people who think that way, and chances are, you're dead wrong.
3. Players like Momo still have a value of about 10million, in the event they are sold. Good work on Rafa's part I'd say.

And lastly, so you want to get rid of all those players, and you don't want to buy those 'unrealistic' players I mentioned, then who are we going to play? Who's the genius you're going to trust to sniff out the next Messi or Ronaldo?

People like you irritate me, because you're the type who looks at something, comes to the easiest conclusion, usually kneejerk, that 'Everything is shite', propose we throw everything out, then look dumbstruck when asked what you suggest we bring in to improve on that we've thrown out.
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They beat better teams on the way, won in circumstances when other teams would have surrendered, were given the last rites and pronounced dead at the scene, before grabbing the attendant by the throat on the slab in the morgue, making everyone jump.

- Martin Samuel, after we beat Arsenal 4-2 in the second leg of the CL QF 2007-200

Offline lachesis

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2008, 10:56:58 am »
Disagree sorry.  It comes down to players strengths.  If you have Torres you play it in to the channel for him to use his pace.  You have Crouch, you can play through the middle and get players running off him.

Torres has an attribute which is pace, if you limit him to playing in the channels you detract from his game, how would he have got the goal against 'boro? He has the space to spin into the channels behind the fullbacks, but he also has space to get in behind the centrebacks.

That's the limitation that is being placed on players. Finnan is there to defend, Pennant is there to cross etc. sometimes players can improvise on their own. Torres may not be getting much joy bending runs in behind the centrebacks so may choose to spin into the channels, then again he may come deep and receive the ball and drive towards goal.

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2008, 11:04:05 am »
An excellent and thought provoking piece. It can go in the Opinion section once others have had a chance to read it.
Well, I don't know what it is, but there's definitely something going on upstairs

Offline marvellous10

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2008, 11:05:47 am »
Undermine the manager and you undermine everything he's trying to accomplish on the pitch. No amount of arse-kicking will make a jot of difference. Tactical analysis becomes meaningless.

That is why you either back him or sack him. There are no shades of grey inbetween.

Hicks and Gillett with their actions ruined our season in November.
Exactly, I just think we need to be a little more ruthless when we take the lead, kill teams off as that's the main thing hindering us. Another quality attacker (striker or winger, or even both IF available) and we're sorted, chuck in a LB too.  Wholesale changes AREN'T needed imo
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Offline fangkeqin

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2008, 11:11:04 am »
"At the moment, we are playing in small pockets of players. The defence defends, but the full backs rarely advance to support the attack. The central defenders look to get rid of it by lumping it forward, instead of advancing to meet the midfield, and thus oppress the opponents."

You accurately sum up the team's attacking approach.  There seems to be an obsessive urge to maintain defensive posture even when attacking.  That's probably why full-backs hardly ever support the attacks.  It's unlikely to be down to the players deciding to do that but part of Rafa's tactical approach in neutralising the opponents.

It is weird to see the players know where their position is and where to move when defending.  When going to the attacking half, the team lacks a systemic approach to break down opponent's defence.  They seems to rely on individual flair to do that.

If this is Rafa's plan, probably it's time to change since the plan is not getting the result we need to win the Premier League.  If it is not and it's the players that are not following instructions, then Rafa needs to stamp his authority.

Offline Zimagic

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2008, 11:21:32 am »

A proper clean out is needed....

Finnan
Riise
Aurellio
Hyppia
Pennant
Momo
Kewell
Kuyt
Voronin

Gone!!

Harsh but its reality!

Interesting. Let's say, for arguament's sake, that you're not a total nut job and have a look at the players you mention:
Finnan - While not as spectacular as last season given his injuries, he's still the most consistant RFB in the league. I'd have to go through the last month or so but up until mid-december he wasn't directly responsible for a single league goal conceeded by us. You can't say the same of any of our other defenders. If he's fit, he's on the team. you don't sell an asset like this until after you have settled his replacement. He'll be here for years.

Riise - He has his detractors true and he's had some terrible games this season. But let's go back to the point about Finnan. You're not going to sell him until you have a superior replacement. At the moment he's onlu just second choice for LM and LFB but not by much seeing how Fabio & Kewell have been playing recently. Sell him and you have no LFB cover and Leto as LMF cover. I'd pick keeping JAR over both possibilities.

Aurellio - It's strange how new FBs have a difficult time settling in when the CBs are having a nightmare season. We've had 5 different CB parings so far this season in all competitions what with injuries and Hyppia not playing more than once a week. He'll be an auto first choice by the start of next season.

Hyppia - Once Agger is back and Skrtl is settled Sami will be bench fodder. I'd still be surprised if he's not still at the club next season though.

Pennant - Currently you have the choice for RW - Pennant or Gerrard. With the left wing looking ever more fragile and with the potential of youth coming back to support the right side, you won't see a RM purchase for 18 months.

Momo - The appliction is there but the skill is not up to the competition. He'll leave this summer, probably to Italy. For a crap player, it's strange that he's being courted by Juventus though, isn't it. They have a history of buying bad IMs.........

Kewell - This player frustrates me but I think his confidence is gone and he won't ever make the impact his promise suggsted when we bought him. This, after Momo, is the first play I agree could be let go from your list but only once a world class LM is brought in. Seeing as that's a very short list and includes mostly players that won't move from where they are, I'd say that that may not be soon.

Kuyt - Ah, the sticking point. I wouldn't sell Kuyt. He's a Rafa style player and improves all the players around him through his workrate. Is he at the top of his game? No, and he hasn't been for a while, but he is still one of the more consistant playmakers in the team. Get used to him, he's not going anywhere.

Voronin - He was free, his contribution mirrors the teams confidence and ability to steamroll opponents. When it's not working, either is he. Any other striker brings more to the team. He'll do a Bellamy and be upgraded. The only question is how far up will the upgrade be?

So if we were to sit down and sell off players from this squad to buy new players, we'd only agree on 3: Momo, Kewell & Voronin, and even then only if we got nailed on deals on a start-able Striker and LM before we agreed the sale.
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Offline AussieG

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2008, 11:21:39 am »
What burns you up inside? The crack going through your veins? FFS man, what gives you the divine insight to conclude that the poor performances of the moment are down to Rafa's coaching? And of the list of players you've made, there are several points I would like to point out.

1. Half of them aren't even Rafa's buys.
2. Players like Hyppia and Finnan are not shite. You're one of the few people who think that way, and chances are, you're dead wrong.
3. Players like Momo still have a value of about 10million, in the event they are sold. Good work on Rafa's part I'd say.

And lastly, so you want to get rid of all those players, and you don't want to buy those 'unrealistic' players I mentioned, then who are we going to play? Who's the genius you're going to trust to sniff out the next Messi or Ronaldo?

People like you irritate me, because you're the type who looks at something, comes to the easiest conclusion, usually kneejerk, that 'Everything is shite', propose we throw everything out, then look dumbstruck when asked what you suggest we bring in to improve on that we've thrown out.

2 things

1. Poor perfomance of the moment - we have been poor for most of this year.
2. LOL Divine Insight..... its called an opinion, which to my understanding is what a Forum is designed for so if you want to get personal you can get fucked!!

If you would rather discuss it based in fact and remove teh emotion of it all it might make sense.

Im not picking on individuals. Finnan and Hyppia(great defender) were great players and wonderful servants of LFC, i just don't think they are able to cut it anymore (the others are no longer useful and some even shit). There should have been a plan to replace these guys in the last few years, I mean there well into their thirties now and were 30 odd when rafa took over. Remember he has been here 4 years or so now. In that time he has brought in an army of players many of which have come and gone. I accept he has had limited funds compared to some of the opposition, I just dont think he has made the most of what he has been given in part, due to this belief of a massive squad and rotation policy that no one else uses!

Offline mjgill85

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2008, 11:31:45 am »
"We didn't lose, we just ran out of time"
@_michaelgill

Offline Valore

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2008, 11:38:23 am »
2 things

1. Poor perfomance of the moment - we have been poor for most of this year.
2. LOL Divine Insight..... its called an opinion, which to my understanding is what a Forum is designed for so if you want to get personal you can get fucked!!

If you would rather discuss it based in fact and remove teh emotion of it all it might make sense.

Im not picking on individuals. Finnan and Hyppia(great defender) were great players and wonderful servants of LFC, i just don't think they are able to cut it anymore (the others are no longer useful and some even shit). There should have been a plan to replace these guys in the last few years, I mean there well into their thirties now and were 30 odd when rafa took over. Remember he has been here 4 years or so now. In that time he has brought in an army of players many of which have come and gone. I accept he has had limited funds compared to some of the opposition, I just dont think he has made the most of what he has been given in part, due to this belief of a massive squad and rotation policy that no one else uses!

Poor for most of the year? Where the fuck were you up to November when we were undefeated? Old Trafford?

Opinions are only differentiated from horseshit by something called insight and proof, neither of which you've shown in your previous posts.

We got into the CL final. But according to you, we were shite.

We had a cracking start to the league. But again, we were shite all along.

Of our losses/draws this season, some were shite, like Tottenham, but others, like Chelsea and Reading, were from factors out of our hands, like dubious refereeing decisions. Yet according to you, we were still shite.

According to you, we should have replaced Hyppia and Finnan years ago. I think you're talking bullfuckingshit. But okay, I'll take what you said on board. Where's the fucking money coming from?

An 'army' of players, most of which have come and gone? Stop talking out your fucking arse. Let's play a fucking logical game shall we. I'll name the ones who have stayed, or have hardly been 'nameless', and you name the nameless ones. Then we'll compare how much they've cost. Here we go: Reina, Alonso, Torres, Agger, Arbeloa, Aurelio, Mascherano, Luis Garcia, Kyut. Now go ahead. Name your 'army', of expensive failures.

You tell me to not let my emotions run away with what I say, well then how about you stop posting fucking shit for a moment then. I'd answer your posts fairly, you can look through my post history, I've never been harsh unduly to those who express a differing view, as long as that view has its merits. Your views, as posted above, are a load of shit. A rotation policy no one uses? What happens to that theory then when you read the articles here that state he has rotated as much as, or less than, the teams like Chelsea and Man Utd who have won the league?

You don't have a leg to stand on mate. Stop embarrassing yourself.
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They beat better teams on the way, won in circumstances when other teams would have surrendered, were given the last rites and pronounced dead at the scene, before grabbing the attendant by the throat on the slab in the morgue, making everyone jump.

- Martin Samuel, after we beat Arsenal 4-2 in the second leg of the CL QF 2007-200

Offline Kop4

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2008, 11:41:21 am »
While I agree, I'm saving all my best kicks for two yankee arses in particular. Once we've succeeded in that, I'll be more than happy to turn my attention to the arses of our team.

The Yanks are not responsible for 6 draws at home so far this season though.
A travesty of a sham of a mockery.

Offline betyar

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2008, 11:41:29 am »
Hicks and Gillett with their actions ruined our season in November.

Fuckin hell, we just don't learn our lessons. I'll kill myself soon. The problem is almost the same it was two years ago. Yossi Benayoun wasted two chances in the first five minutes yesterday, from wich he would have had to create clear cut chances for one of our player. Any, and I mean every single one attaccking player from United would have done that, I have no doubt about that... It's not the americans, it's ability, skills, man.

What that two yankee fuckers are doing or saying should not make us blind. This game should have been killed by the 30th minute. FFS, we couldn't make any advantage from Villa's worst game in weeks! With players like Benayoun, who will never be able to get a regular satrter's place in a tilte-winning side, we won't win anything. Fact. Not only our team, but Rafa must improve, too, because he definitely overestimates the manager's power and underesimetes the importance of skilled, creative players that are good on the ball. Also, he doesn't know when to take risk. It seems to me that he don't take any until the 80th minute while Fergie and Wenger take risk against each other. Even after the 80th minute in every game, it's the players who launches the attack, or Stevie give them the order, I don't really know. Guess what, Liverpool is the team who scored the most goals in the last five or ten minutes, if I'm not mistaken. Without takin grisk, we won't win anything, again. 

It's down to our manager, too, he must learn like Fergie did in  the eighties, OK, but we would be stupid to blame only the yanks regardless what Gerrard is saying. When we played against Portsmouth at Fratton Park, or against Birmingham at Anfield, or against Porto in Portugal, the problems caused by the yanks were simply a matter of future, but our on-pitch problems already existed, just like last year. And it's always the same.

Out with the yanks, I agree, but they are not our only problem.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 11:44:30 am by betyar »

Offline Valore

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2008, 11:42:20 am »
The Yanks are not responsible for 6 draws at home so far this season though.

Can't disagree with that. But when you've got an elephant and a dog running through your house making a mess, you don't chase the dog out first.
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They beat better teams on the way, won in circumstances when other teams would have surrendered, were given the last rites and pronounced dead at the scene, before grabbing the attendant by the throat on the slab in the morgue, making everyone jump.

- Martin Samuel, after we beat Arsenal 4-2 in the second leg of the CL QF 2007-200

Offline Riises left boot

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2008, 11:44:12 am »
Can't disagree with that. But when you've got an elephant and a dog running through your house making a mess, you don't chase the dog out first.

i think i'd be getting out the house  ;)
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Offline stjohns

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2008, 11:46:16 am »
Some very good stuff there Iachesis. The way we are set up the start of any attacking move is crucial. God have we missed Agger? The fact that he's our only CB who can pass the ball accurately is a disgrace given the size of our squad. It drives me nuts every time Carra hoofs it up the field which is potentially surrendering posession. Lets hope Skertl has similar qualities to Agger or I fear we will struggle for some time. Our great League teams could always bring the ball out of defence to good purpose so we're not talking about anything ground-breaking here.

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2008, 11:54:41 am »
Undermine the manager and you undermine everything he's trying to accomplish on the pitch. No amount of arse-kicking will make a jot of difference. Tactical analysis becomes meaningless.

That is why you either back him or sack him. There are no shades of grey inbetween.

Hicks and Gillett with their actions ruined our season in November.

Offline DERRYLEGEND

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2008, 12:00:48 pm »
i have been saying for ages that carra while being an ok centre half cause more trouble by hoofing the ball up the field also everytime he gets it rather than giving a simple pass or god forbid actually looking to take the ball out of defense and building an attack allowing the mid fielders to push up and be futher up the field, the sooner he is moved into a more part time role for skertel and agger the better

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Re: This team needs a kick up the arse
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2008, 12:02:16 pm »
My view from Yesterdays game;

The team in general: Average

Outstanding: Mascherano

Abysmal: Aurelio, Kuyt
Awful: Stephen Gerrard

I really wanted to see Alonso come on and control the game - but it didn't happen
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.