Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1450119 times)

Offline Robinred

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Just caught the last 15min of a LBC debate, Kate Hoey, Susan Evans,Andrew Adonnis.Ian Dunt.
NI border. Kate Hoey argues we have the technology to solve the problem but the Republic and the remainers are using the NI border to stop Brexit. can't name 1 country that can over come borders with technology, she is still making the technology argument after everyone else has accepted it won't work,Why? to lay the blame on the EU and the remainers.
Susan Evans destroyed by Ian Dunt, she claims every country in the world will want to do a trade deal with us,  Dunt argues of course they will what else do you expect them to say but they are also saying they will wait till they see what sort of deal we get from the EU. Dunt reckons we will want these trade deals to concentrate more on services than goods.

I missed that but don’t envy you; Hoey and Evans don’t deserve the oxygen of having their views broadcast - in the same way Kelvin McKenzie has ceased to be worthy of having his views listened to, for obvious reasons.

I did watch Newsnight, and that utter twat Gareth Snell defending Corbyn whilst simultaneously looking after his own career. I’m sick to the back teeth of career politicians putting career or Party before National interest.

Westminster as ever is full of them.
"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

Offline killer-heels

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MP’s, remainers, brexiteers and the media have all lost the plot. Giles Fraser, Polly Toynbee and the rest of MP’s thrown out by Newsnight tonight were all laughable. Apparently now Brexiteers and Remainers have joined forces to reject a deal. The arrogance of these c*nts is amazing.

Bring on no deal.

Offline ShakaHislop

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I missed that but don’t envy you; Hoey and Evans don’t deserve the oxygen of having their views broadcast - in the same way Kelvin McKenzie has ceased to be worthy of having his views listened to, for obvious reasons.

I did watch Newsnight, and that utter twat Gareth Snell defending Corbyn whilst simultaneously looking after his own career. I’m sick to the back teeth of career politicians putting career or Party before National interest.

Westminster as ever is full of them.

Nuttall was as pro-Brexit as Snell, but at least he probably would have provided more humour had he won that Stoke by-election.

Offline cowtownred

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Well if what May is saying tonight is anything to go by, then this is a certain 'No Deal'.

Good for the Republican movement.

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I missed that but don’t envy you; Hoey and Evans don’t deserve the oxygen of having their views broadcast - in the same way Kelvin McKenzie has ceased to be worthy of having his views listened to, for obvious reasons.

I did watch Newsnight, and that utter twat Gareth Snell defending Corbyn whilst simultaneously looking after his own career. I’m sick to the back teeth of career politicians putting career or Party before National interest.

Westminster as ever is full of them.
Yeah am disgusted by it as well, the best thing that could happen for them is if Brexit is stopped, if Brexit does go ahead then they will face the music in a angry country pointing fingers, the mood of the country will change if Brexit goes ahead when project fear becomes project realty.
Am still amazed they can't see what's coming.
Hoey and Evans are still making the same old arguments they've lost many times over. I do wonder if there came a time when they thought ive got this wrong here but ive been saying these things for years now so am going to look a right tosser if I admit I was wrong, I think a lot of leave MPs have held long standing opinions on the EU itself and what would happen if we left the EU.
have any of them turned around and said do you know I got that wrong,?  I never understood how the Single Market+ CU worked, I never fully understood the importance of frictionless trading and how we are able to do this with the EU but not other countries, am sure they have but they will never admit it.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline killer-heels

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I missed that but don’t envy you; Hoey and Evans don’t deserve the oxygen of having their views broadcast - in the same way Kelvin McKenzie has ceased to be worthy of having his views listened to, for obvious reasons.

I did watch Newsnight, and that utter twat Gareth Snell defending Corbyn whilst simultaneously looking after his own career. I’m sick to the back teeth of career politicians putting career or Party before National interest.

Westminster as ever is full of them.

Polly Toynbee was saying Jo Johnson was amazing. Its funny how messed up this whole thing is and that people are less bothered about doing a compromise and more concerned with pushing their own agendas.

Whether its Snell, Morgan or McGovern. They are all the same.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 12:34:32 am by a treeless whopper »

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Dublin's paper of record telling it like it is

Fintan O’Toole: Historians will not believe sheer ignorance of Brexit supporters

When future historians try to understand how Britain ended up with a choice between chaos and becoming a satellite of the European Union, one question will stump them. Were these people telling deliberate lies or were they merely, staggeringly, ignorant? Where does mendacity stop and idiocy begin?
Historians generally have to assume that people in power have a basic grasp of what they are doing, that their actions are intentional. They may use deception as a tactic and they may be deluded in what they think they can achieve. But they must, at least at the beginning, have some grasp on reality – otherwise they would not have achieved power. Yet, for the poor historians trying to make sense of Brexit, this assumption will be mistaken.

There is, of course, plenty of straightforward mendacity for them to identify. Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s whole journalistic and political career has been driven by his talent for taking minor regulations and distorting them into wildly exaggerated claims of oppression by the Eurocrats. This can’t be done by mistake. For example, you cannot by accident take, as Johnson did, a Council of Europe (not EU) convention on the repatriation of corpses and turn it into a repeated claim that “There really is European legislation on the weight, dimensions and composition of a coffin”. There isn’t. This is not ignorance – it is a knowing falsification of the truth. So let’s leave that aside. Historians will know it when they see it.

A spotter’s guide

Their problem will be, rather, with the shades of obliviousness. Here our future scholars will have to try to distinguish between three kinds of ignorance: deliberate un-knowing, crass self-delusion and what we can only call pig ignorance. So, for their benefit, here is a brief spotter’s guide.

Deliberate un-knowing is when you are fully aware of something but then choose to suppress that consciousness. A good example is Theresa May speaking about the Irish border on June 21st 2016, just two days before the referendum: “Just think about it. If we are out of the European Union with tariffs on exporting goods into the EU, there’d have to be something to recognise that, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. And if you pulled out of the EU and came out of free movement, then how could you have a situation where there was an open border with a country that was in the EU and has access to free movement?” So she knew full well that a Brexit that involved leaving the customs union would create a hard border. And then, as prime minister, she insisted on the opposite: that a hard Brexit was perfectly compatible with no return of a hard border. She un-knew what she had known.

Crass self-delusion is when you start with an ideological premise that you believe to be true even though it isn’t and then draw apparently reasonable conclusions from it.

Thus, for example, David Davis sincerely believed the EU is just a front for German domination of Europe. Hence he also believed quite genuinely that the Brexit negotiations would be conducted not with Brussels but over a convivial weissbräu and schnitzel in Berlin and that frictionless trade would be decreed immediately because the German car manufacturers wished it so: sincerely fatuous self-delusion.

Village idiot
And then there’s pig ignorance – the genuine hallmarked, unadulterated, slack-jawed, open-mouthed, village idiot variety in which the people who are in charge of the British state don’t know stuff that anyone off Gogglebox could tell them. The Brexiteer MP Nadine Dorries admitted in effect that she didn’t know what a customs union is. Her comrade Andrew Bridgen said last month: “As an English person, I do have the right to go over to Ireland and I believe that I can ask for a passport. Can’t I?”

Karen Bradley, the actual secretary of state for Northern Ireland, said:“I freely admit that when I started this job, I didn’t understand some of the deep-seated and deep-rooted issues that there are in Northern Ireland. I didn’t understand things like when elections are fought, for example, in Northern Ireland – people who are nationalists don’t vote for unionist parties and vice versa.”

And last week the actual Brexit secretary, Dominic Raab: “I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.”

Crass self-delusion
 What’s charming about this is that Bradley and Raab’s ignorance is publicly self-proclaimed. It’s not just that they didn’t know basic stuff, it’s that they didn’t think there was anything shameful in not knowing. This is the purest form of ignorance: it’s not just that you don’t know, but that you don’t even know that you’re meant to know.

Historians will in time get to the bottom of the deliberate un-knowing and the crass self-delusion. They can be charted. But this pure pig ignorance, innocent and unalloyed, is unfathomable. It will be impossible not to conclude that it was all part of some great strategic plan, that, if only we could plumb its depths, we could reveal the hidden truth of Brexit. How will they ever believe that the hidden truth is so asinine?
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Offline naka

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By Victoria Leonard ( Belfast Telegraph a moderately unionist paper)

November 13 2018

Six in 10 people here and eight out of 10 in the Irish Republic believe that the UK should not proceed with Brexit if it means a hard border in Ireland, according to a cross-border survey.
 
   The survey was jointly commissioned by BBC NI's Nolan Live and RTE's Claire Byrne Live programmes, which broadcast the results simultaneously last night.

Over 1,000 adults aged 18 or over were surveyed here, and another 1,000 adults in the Republic.

The findings indicated that a clear majority of those who responded in Northern Ireland and the Republic believe the UK should not proceed with Brexit if it means a hard border.

In Northern Ireland, 61% of respondents answered no to a question about whether the UK should proceed with Brexit in the event of a deal including a hard border.

Just over a third (36%) here supported Brexit going forward even in the event of a hard border, while 3% were undecided.

In the Republic, the balance was even more decisively set against leaving in the event of a hard border, with some 83% saying they would oppose going forward with leaving the EU in this scenario.

Just one in 10 said the process should carry on even in the event of a hard border.

However, 7% of respondents in the south were undecided.

Meanwhile, some 62% of respondents in Northern Ireland said they believe Brexit makes a united Ireland a more likely possibility - a view shared by just over a third (35%) of respondents in the Republic.
 
But 11% of respondents here believed it made a united Ireland less likely, with nearly a quarter (24%) saying it wouldn't make a difference and 3% saying they didn't know.

In the Republic, nearly a third (32%) said they felt Brexit would make a united Ireland less likely, while 22% said Brexit would not make it more or less likely, and 11% said they didn't know.

The statistics also gave an insight into people's perceptions of how Brexit would affect their own financial situation.

Over half (55%) of respondents in Northern Ireland said they feared they would be worse off, with 9% saying they felt they would be better off and 7% saying they didn't know.

In addition, 29% responded by saying they thought Brexit would make no difference to their finances.

In the Republic of Ireland, just over a third (34%) of respondents believed they'd be worse off due to Brexit, with 2% believing they'd be better off and 44% saying it would make no difference.

But a fifth (20%) of respondents in the Republic were unsure how Brexit would affect their financial situation.

The survey also dealt with attitudes towards holding a second Brexit referendum.

In Northern Ireland, the survey showed that in the event of a UK and EU deal on the terms of Brexit, 58% of respondents believed there should be a second referendum.

In contrast, 38% of people said there should not be a second Brexit referendum in these circumstances, while 4% were undecided.

However, in the Republic, over three quarters (77%) of people felt a second referendum would be needed in this case, with just 14% saying no

Offline Zeb

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Stephen Bush on the wheels within wheels. (No link, Morning Call e-mail.)

Quote
Good morning. Will today be another happy day? Not for Theresa May, who has declared that the Brexit talks have reached their "endgame". But two pieces in today's papers highlight just how difficult - perhaps impossible - it will be for the Prime Minister to pass any kind of accord through Parliament.

Writing for the Times, Jo Johnson blasts May's deal and a No Deal exit as a choice between an unacceptable loss of power on the one hand and an unacceptable economic catastrophe on the other. For him, the solution is simple: a second referendum with the option to Remain. It doesn't add very much to his resignation statement but of course it makes it impossible to conceive of a situation in which he will vote for the deal having marched right to the top of the hill. To his name you can add at least half a dozen Conservative MPs who have backed a referendum on the deal - perilously close to the seven needed to wipe out the government's majority on their own.

If Jo Johnson is not going to vote for a deal he has declared makes the United Kingdom a vassal state, then Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson can't, as so many optimists in the Whips' Office, Downing Street and in the government have privately predicted for so long, U-Turn again and vote for the deal.

That matters for two reasons - firstly, of course, because the government is already two votes down in a vote where the margin for error is paper thin. But it also matters because Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has credibility with Leave voters and if he is voting against the deal, pro-European Labour MPs in seats that voted for Brexit will feel safer in voting against the deal (as the Labour leadership is certain to instruct them to do). So that's one group that won't be coming to May's rescue.

Also not bailing May out: ideologically committed Labour Leavers. One of their number, Kate Hoey, writes today for LabourList that she will vote against any deal that "panders" to the Irish government over the backstop. Labour's small band of longtime Brexiteers on the backbenchers are an ideologically diverse bunch so don't assume that Hoey speaks for all of them - but Hoey was very probably the most likely of the bunch to vote for May's deal.

So what next for Theresa May? Recent history suggests that when it looks like she can't go on, she goes on, somehow. The chances of no Brexit at all are rising, but so, too, are the chances of No Deal. Downing Street hopes that the fear of the former will yet win over enough Brexiteers while a desire to avoid the latter will win over enough Remainers. Others are pinning their hopes on a second vote on the deal once Labour has tried and failed to bring about an early election. What unites almost everyone at Westminster is a conviction that someone else will blink. If they're wrong, it's not clear what will be left to save from the embers.

Still of the opinion that the sane thing to do would be to accept May's deal but ensure procedure is in place to make it subject to a three way referendum (AV as SP and filo have said sound good, but I'll take whatever) which includes Remain. Would need Article 50 being extended but shouldn't be a problem. More of a problem would be pinning down the two alternatives to 'Remain'. But so it goes.

---

Oh dear. Via Times' Matt Chorley:

Cabinet minister: “I think everyone is coming round to the Chorley view of Theresa May.”
Me: That she’s rubbish? What took them so long?
Cabinet minister: “It’s a mixed-ability class.”
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 10:31:04 am by Zeb »
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline paulrazor

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"In the Republic of Ireland, just over a third (34%) of respondents believed they'd be worse off due to Brexit, with 2% believing they'd be better off and 44% saying it would make no difference. "

funny enough if asked i would be in that 2% for now

I live in the north and work in the south, the value of sterling since June 2016 means my mortgage is a lot more affordable

what happens after brexit is initiated could well be a different story of course.

I have posted links from this twitter account before and here it is again
@uk_domain_names. Edwin Hayward

I must have gone through about 100 tweets last night alone, whilst it doesnt come as a shock to most the sheer amount of businesses pulling out of the UK in some way shape or form to move to the likes or Ireland and Luxembourg is mind boggling
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

Offline filopastry

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Went to a crowdfunder presentation for a successful, growing, craft brewer last night, and literally their number 1 risk to the business for the coming years was Brexit, it is amazing how many people just choose to ignore the widespread impact this is having on all types of business.

They are a small rapidly growing business that would dearly love to be investing in growth (hence the crowdfunder) instead they are now in the position where they are having to burn cash on working capital to carry 4 months worth of stocks of Hops just to provide more security of supply.

There will be thousands of other similar negative examples for business out there, just so many ways in which British companies are going to be hamstrung by the ongoing shitshow we have voluntarily created for ourselves.

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Dublin's paper of record telling it like it is


Not always a fan of Fintan but he's right there.

Offline Zeb

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If what is missing in your life is a deep dive into parliamentary procedure as it relates to the Meaningful Vote, then King's College's EU think tank has you covered with The Brexit Endgame

Lot in there but this is really the huge point about the Withdrawal Agreement, or May's 'deal':

Spoiler
Quote
Three documents must be published and laid before both the Commons and the Lords
Section 13 sets out three basic requirements for documents that must be laid before each House:

• A statement that political agreement has been reached;
• A copy of the negotiated Withdrawal Agreement; and
• A copy of the Political Declaration.

The first is likely to be a short written statement which sets out the basic nature of the agreement.
It could also set out the likely timetable for the approval process in parliament. The statement could
provide an opportunity for the government to set out its position on the status of the two agreements
and provide some details on the consequences of approving both agreements.

The second is the legally binding treaty. This has been available in draft form since March 2018, so we
have a sense of what it will look like if agreed. It is not clear whether the Withdrawal Agreement will be
accompanied by any explanatory material, for example any material equivalent to the explanatory notes
that accompany bills, and if so whether it will be written by the UK government alone or jointly with the
EU. Perhaps most importantly, it is not known whether the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill,
which will convert the Withdrawal Agreement into UK law, will be published alongside the Agreement
itself so that the treaty’s domestic implications can be debated before it is approved. On questions
such as the backstop for the Irish dimension of negotiations, having sight of the domestic legislative
implications could be especially significant if the government is attempting to ease concerns about the
commitments in the Withdrawal Agreement.
The third document that must be laid is the Political Declaration on the future relationship. This is
likely to be the most controversial of the documents in substance, legal status, form and its procedural
implications. In terms of its substance, it is likely to be a short document which sets out basic principles
of agreement on the nature of the future relationship. In terms of its legal status, it will not be a treaty,
and so the extent to which it binds this government, and other governments, into the future is likely to
be controversial.

Its form has already provoked controversy, especially in terms of the level of detail it will include. Some
have argued that a detailed agreement is not possible in the time available. Others have argued that
vague language will make it harder for MPs to make an informed judgment and would suggest that the
substance of the future relationship is far from being finalised. If the Political Declaration is vague, this
will potentially make any accompanying explanatory material from the government, particularly on the
economic implications, especially significant. The vaguer the contents of the Political Declaration, the
more demands there will be that the government explains how its contents will be translated into a
treaty that will regulate the UK and EU’s post-transition long-term economic relationship. Without this
detail, the government will be criticised for pursuing a ‘blind Brexit’.

However, the timetable is already relatively short. As things currently stand in the draft Withdrawal
Agreement, the Political Declaration will have to be translated into a treaty, approved by the EU and
the member states and implemented into UK law before December 2020. In terms of the procedure,
the government said in the Chequers white paper that parliament would be able scrutinise the Treaty
(or Treaties) on the Future Relationship when implementing legislation is introduced after exit day. The
crucial question on the parliamentary procedure for the future relationship is whether parliament will
be granted another chance formally to approve or reject the Treaty on the Future Relationship before it
is implemented. If there is to be such an opportunity, when does the government envisage this taking
place?
[close]

May's 'deal' *might* legally bind us into a customs union. It's likely to be silent in itself on the single market apart from vaguely acknowledging our need to 'voluntarily' align with some regulations. So that would still be up for debate during transition. Nothing will be done which will legally commit us to the single market, or otherwise, as part of the Withdrawal Agreement. Nor can it be without further concessions from the EU about blending the Withdrawal Agreement with the talks on the Future Relationship. So, as said for a while, there's where the fight will be had during transition should May's 'deal', or indeed any Withdrawal Agreement, be passed through Parliament. The danger is, of course, the failure to mention it now allows a lot of flexibility to the government in interpreting the Political Declaration. Prime Minister Rees Mogg would certainly read it a different way to Prime Minister Greening.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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My idea of the best leader the Labour Party could, in a different world, have had.

What a strange thing (fucking disaster) that instead, we got his father’s rather dim acolyte.

Well put.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline paulrazor

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Went to a crowdfunder presentation for a successful, growing, craft brewer last night, and literally their number 1 risk to the business for the coming years was Brexit, it is amazing how many people just choose to ignore the widespread impact this is having on all types of business.

They are a small rapidly growing business that would dearly love to be investing in growth (hence the crowdfunder) instead they are now in the position where they are having to burn cash on working capital to carry 4 months worth of stocks of Hops just to provide more security of supply.

There will be thousands of other similar negative examples for business out there, just so many ways in which British companies are going to be hamstrung by the ongoing shitshow we have voluntarily created for ourselves.
well my old friend, long time no speak. Being into craft beer i have a fair idea who that brewer could be

its a shame to see a growth industry like that get bitten

yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

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Well if what May is saying tonight is anything to go by, then this is a certain 'No Deal'.

Good for the Republican movement.

There was little doubt in the mind of sane people it would be any thing other than a no deal, as there is no plan or organization behind leaving the EU and there never was. The whole damn lot of them should be locked up and banned from ever being allowed to take any decision again. Bunch of incompetent twats the lot of them, and that goes for the gutless ones who haven't the courage to try and stop it. Meanwhile the cliff comes ever closer for the rest of us. 
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"The Irish government, in cahoots with the EU, has deliberately made the border an issue and unfortunately our prime minister and her officials have fallen for it." Kate Hoey


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If it drives us towards a  'No Deal' v 'Remain' referendum then they will all deserve a pat on the back.
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"The Irish government, in cahoots with the EU, has deliberately made the border an issue and unfortunately our prime minister and her officials have fallen for it." Kate Hoey


She is dumb but she's also a liar, she also argued we have border checks anyway. customs may get tip offs about smugglers or gun runners and they will stop these vehicles for checks.
This isn't ignorance, this is trying to hoodwink the ignorant. we have frictionless tariff free trading but if someone tips off customs about someone smuggling in 1 million ciggies then am sure that vehicle will be pulled over for a check, same with weapons, security checks will always be made looking for drugs and weapons. she is a disgrace. making the same argument over and over even though her argument gets torn to shreds every time.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline paulrazor

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That quote from Hoey is outrageous

thick c*nt
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

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She reminds me of David Brent. we know what the EU would do, the same as they are doing now.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1062306710549880832
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Bisto owner plans Brexit stockpile

Quote
Premier Foods has said it intends to stockpile raw materials in the run-up to Brexit as fears grow over gridlock at UK ports.

The firm, which owns Bisto, Oxo and Mr Kipling, said it was taking steps "in the absence of certainty over the arrangements for the UK's departure from the EU".

Premier Foods said it expected to spend up to £10m on the preparations.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46191729

Offline Zeb

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Peston reckons that Cabinet will be seeing some 500 pages of Withdrawal Agreement tonight and, should there be no hiccups - he doesn't expect any now, it'll then be publicly available tomorrow. Government's on a tight timetable to get things through the various democratic processes (here and in the EU) which is one reason for May not being able to prevaricate too much longer.
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Offline Dr. Beaker

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And the Attorney General will make a statement to the house.
NAKED BOOBERY

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Offline Red-Soldier

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Deal agreed between UK and EU.

Online Ray K

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Tony Connelly
@tconnellyRTE

BREAKING: EU and UK negotiators have agreed a text on how to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland, which will form part of the Withdrawal Agreement, @rtenews understands

Two well-placed sources say the text was "stabilised" last night, around 9pm and then transmitted to Downing Street.
One source said the text is "as stable as it can be."

It's understood there is one overall backstop to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland. It will be in the form of a UK-wide customs arrangement, but will have "deeper" provisions for Northern Ireland on the customs and regulatory side.

A senior source said it would be wrong to say negotiations were "concluded", and that there was still some "shuttling" between London and Brussels.

While the text is "stable" from a negotiators point of view, it will obviously have to get cabinet and then parliamentary approval.

A review mechanism is understood to be part of the text.

There may be provisions relating to Northern Ireland within the text and within annexes to take account of a scenario whereby the UK-wide customs arrangement does not sufficiently avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland, @rtenews understands.


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Offline Zeb

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Be interesting to see what the steer of the Political part of things will be, if only to see if it gives some sense of appreciation for how much more still needs to be agreed to prevent this agreement being what we're left with at the end.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Online Ray K

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That's not getting through the Commons.
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Offline killer-heels

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That's not getting through the Commons.

Why not? What more do MP's want?

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Why not? What more do MP's want?

Large proportion of Tory headbangers looking for unicorns + DUP + Labour noes.

If it was agreeable to the DUP, May would have brought Arlene into the loop before now. She didn't.
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Offline Djimothy

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Not sure why any MP who voted to trigger article 50 would vote against it,there was never any chance of getting a deal better than that. Unless they want a no deal of course.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Why not? What more do MP's want?

All MPs bar the SNP and Plaid Cymru should vote against if there's any possibility of Northern Ireland being treated differently from the rest of the UK, if they're as pro UK as they claim to be.

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Not sure why any MP who voted to trigger article 50 would vote against it,there was never any chance of getting a deal better than that. Unless they want a no deal of course.

Which is entirely what the brexit supporters want anyway, a no-deal. They'll find something to moan about. It does sound as though she may have sold out to them in someway. One of the pro-European Tories was claiming it earlier, I think it was Anna Sowbry.
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Nick Robinson
(@bbcnickrobinson)
So, we’re off. Cabinet to be invited to approve draft EU withdrawal agreement - one to one meetings tonight & full Cabinet tomorrow. If the Leavers who’ve been threatening to quit are going to do it it’s now or never.
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Big question is the exit clause to the UK wide customs union. Because that's what the headbangers will want to tear up at the end of transition. The idea they give a shit about what happens with NI should have died a long time ago. They don't. Nor do their supporters in the Tory membership.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Has someone jumped too soon with this story.

Lisa O'Carroll Lisa O'Carroll


A spokesman for Simon Coveney, the Irish foreign minister, said:
 
Negotiations between the EU and UK on a withdrawal agreement are ongoing and have not concluded. Negotiators are still engaged and a number of issues are outstanding. We are not commenting further on leaks in the media.
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Has someone jumped too soon with this story.

Think it's just the Irish being polite about our government not being able to agree anything. Indie's John Rentoul has Number 10 confirming that cabinet meet at 2pm tomorrow to consider what's on the table, and ministers will have it overnight to read.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline TepidT2O

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Well.  A deal is good because it’s way better than the chaos of no deal.

However, reports today suggest that Raab is actively trying to get cabinet to go for no deal.

Having a deal in place doesn’t mean anyone will vote for it of course.. 

Difficult this for May.  The only deal we were ever going to get was a crappy deal, we all knew this, so why is anyone surprised? Only those arrogant enough to believe the EU would fall at our feet if we left it long enough would ever have believed in that huff.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Well.  A deal is good because it’s way better than the chaos of no deal.

However, reports today suggest that Raab is actively trying to get cabinet to go for no deal.

Having a deal in place doesn’t mean anyone will vote for it of course.. 

Difficult this for May.  The only deal we were ever going to get was a crappy deal, we all knew this, so why is anyone surprised? Only those arrogant enough to believe the EU would fall at our feet if we left it long enough would ever have believed in that huff.

Assuming she can't keep the headbangers on board I think this is dead in the water (already writing off the chance of the DUP supporting it), there aren't going to be enough Labour rebels voting for it to get through.

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Well.  A deal is good because it’s way better than the chaos of no deal.

However, reports today suggest that Raab is actively trying to get cabinet to go for no deal.

Having a deal in place doesn’t mean anyone will vote for it of course.. 

Difficult this for May.  The only deal we were ever going to get was a crappy deal, we all knew this, so why is anyone surprised? Only those arrogant enough to believe the EU would fall at our feet if we left it long enough would ever have believed in that huff.

I would prefer to see the deal especially as Sowbray was claiming May had sold out to the Pro-Brexiteers.
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