Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[Studgotelli]

MPs vote to approve £4bn foreign aid cut amid claims it could last for years – live

Government wins vote by 333 to 298 – a majority of 35.


#Global Britain

Slimy Tories strike again 

[classycarra]

Think it's fair to conclude now that Corbyn and McDonnell no longer have any solidarity for Cubans, despite getting a fancy lanyard a couple of years ago.

Silence from Corbyn and only activity on McDonnell's account is to try and crowdsource for the bigoted 'news' website the canary.

Can safely add Cuban people to the Venezuelan and Syrian people they have already shown plenty of contempt for.

[Yorkykopite]

Think it's fair to conclude now that Corbyn and McDonnell no longer have any solidarity for Cubans, despite getting a fancy lanyard a couple of years ago.

Silence from Corbyn and only activity on McDonnell's account is to try and crowdsource for the bigoted 'news' website the canary.

Can safely add Cuban people to the Venezuelan and Syrian people they have already shown plenty of contempt for.

Indeed.

Their solidarity, of course, has always been with the Cuban Communist Party (ie the ruling class of Cuba) rather than with the Cuban people. For some unfathomable reason they believe the two are the same thing. I suppose the lack of a single free election since Castro seized power has helped to maintain the delusion. 

[killer-heels]

Think it's fair to conclude now that Corbyn and McDonnell no longer have any solidarity for Cubans, despite getting a fancy lanyard a couple of years ago.

Silence from Corbyn and only activity on McDonnell's account is to try and crowdsource for the bigoted 'news' website the canary.

Can safely add Cuban people to the Venezuelan and Syrian people they have already shown plenty of contempt for.

Give it a few days, USA will be getting it.

[TepidT2O]

Indeed.

Their solidarity, of course, has always been with the Cuban Communist Party (ie the ruling class of Cuba) rather than with the Cuban people. For some unfathomable reason they believe the two are the same thing. I suppose the lack of a single free election since Castro seized power has helped to maintain the delusion. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-57818918

Wow… these protests have gone under the radar… especially  since protests are banned…

[classycarra]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-57818918

Wow… these protests have gone under the radar… especially  since protests are banned…

Yep barely reported. And then when finally mentioned, BBC R4 interviewed a crank academic who is essentially a propogandist for the party without describing her that way.

It's not just an absence of interest among the MPs in the Solidarity for Cuba group to be fair. There's a couple of high profile media figures with big platforms (links to Newsnight, multiple newspapers and big followings), who claimed to have solidarity with Cubans who are keeping schtum now (despite being active on twitter) in Owen Jones and Paul Mason too.

Shower of bellends

[bigbonedrawky]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-57818918

Wow… these protests have gone under the radar… especially  since protests are banned…

Protest banned, corruption rife, police and armed forces immune from prosecution... Bloody johnny foreignerTories eh.

[classycarra]

Protest banned, corruption rife, police and armed forces immune from prosecution... Bloody johnny foreignerTories eh.

Nice of you to belittle what's going on abroad, and what Cubans (not johnny foreigner..) are experiencing, by framing it as if it's remotely like what people in England are going through - for the sake of some narrow minded point scoring (or something, can rarely tell what you mean, you rarely set that out)

[Yorkykopite]

Protest in Cuba? Who cares? We have it just as bad...... Just another depressing sign of the 'Little Englander' attitude that has gripped the country isn't it?

[bigbonedrawky]

Nice of you to belittle what's going on abroad, and what Cubans (not johnny foreigner..) are experiencing, by framing it as if it's remotely like what people in England are going through - for the sake of some narrow minded point scoring (or something, can rarely tell what you mean, you rarely set that out)

This thread is about British Politics I tried to keep it on topic...Go start a Cuba thread or even an Haiti one plenty of unrest to choose from.
As for point scoring I doubt you'd of mentioned it if wasn't for Corbyn.

Protest in Cuba? Who cares? We have it just as bad...... Just another depressing sign of the 'Little Englander' attitude that has gripped the country isn't it?

He also mentioned Syria I recently read one of your comments about Vlad da Bad bombing and killing the Syrians, which I agreed with.
I still laughed when I thought of you wanting to do the same not that long ago  Well obviously not you personally just other people on your behalf.

[classycarra]

This thread is about British Politics I tried to keep it on topic...Go start a Cuba thread or even an Haiti one plenty of unrest to choose from.
As for point scoring I doubt you'd of mentioned it if wasn't for Corbyn.

maybe you got my post mixed up with another? the topic was very on clearly british politicians (and media figures who've supported them) who purport to be allies in solidarity with cubans, but clearly don't give a shit about cubans (just the party they stan for). As it happens what prompted the post was seeing a pic of Mason proudly waering his Cuban lanyard a couple of years ago. I checked the former labour leader and shadow chancellors accounts as they quite famously neglected important parts of their jobs in briitsh politics to attend these events that supported the ruling party in cuba. There's nothing to point score on corbyn now anyway, everyone knows he lost catastrophically (for the rest of us).

He also mentioned Syria I recently read one of your comments about Vlad da Bad bombing and killing the Syrians, which I agreed with.
I still laughed when I thought of you wanting to do the same not that long ago  Well obviously not you personally just other people on your behalf.

Here you follow up on your (as yorky put it) little englander mentality, and double down on your belittling of the plight of syrians. Not sure what you found to laugh at there, but again there's far more important things in the world than the mentality you Dianne Abbott and Stop the War Coalition share ('better to watch hundreds of thousands of people die and pretend not to notice, than to take difficult decisions and have to handle any responsibility'). Basically their view is it's more important their english heads get down for a good nights sleep without worrying about decisions, than it is to try and do anything about mass murder of civilians.

The fact that in 2021 we still have weird people in the west applying moral equivalence between syrian and russian forces bombing civilians, and nation states proposing to enforce a no-fly zone (threatening to bomb the civilian-targeting syrian and russian military) is just another depressing example of how ideological framing can lead to such astoundingly callous ignorance.

[bigbonedrawky]

maybe you got my post mixed up with another? the topic was very on clearly british politicians (and media figures who've supported them) who purport to be allies in solidarity with cubans, but clearly don't give a shit about cubans (just the party they stan for). As it happens what prompted the post was seeing a pic of Mason proudly waering his Cuban lanyard a couple of years ago. I checked the former labour leader and shadow chancellors accounts as they quite famously neglected important parts of their jobs in briitsh politics to attend these events that supported the ruling party in cuba. There's nothing to point score on corbyn now anyway, everyone knows he lost catastrophically (for the rest of us).
Here you follow up on your (as yorky put it) little englander mentality, and double down on your belittling of the plight of syrians. Not sure what you found to laugh at there, but again there's far more important things in the world than the mentality you Dianne Abbott and Stop the War Coalition share ('better to watch hundreds of thousands of people die and pretend not to notice, than to take difficult decisions and have to handle any responsibility'). Basically their view is it's more important their english heads get down for a good nights sleep without worrying about decisions, than it is to try and do anything about mass murder of civilians.

The fact that in 2021 we still have weird people in the west applying moral equivalence between syrian and russian forces bombing civilians, and nation states proposing to enforce a no-fly zone (threatening to bomb the civilian-targeting syrian and russian military) is just another depressing example of how ideological framing can lead to such astoundingly callous ignorance.

YAWN

Sorry nodded off there.
First of all I dont believe you give a toss about Cubans, Venezuelans or Syrians they are nothing but a vehicle for your obsession, just another footnote in another pointless attack on Corbyn.
I also think your been harsh on the Stop the War Coalition, even t'other Yorky marched with them to try and Stop the War against Iraq don't you know. It not just your whipping girl Abbot your insulting there.
Also you seem to be under the illusion that a tweet on tw@ter somehow proves you care about any given subject and a lack of a tweet means you don't care...Kids these day's       

[TepidT2O]

Personally I was just interested in what was happening in Cuba. 

70 years of dictatorship is it?  Surprised more hasn’t been made of it.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

This plea for the Tories to 'rethink their stance on taking the knee' is just.. odd.

I thought it was more or less mandatory that you are racist and/or xenophobic before you are even allowed to be an MP.

If it isn't then it's quite difficult to explain the way their MPs act.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Protest banned, corruption rife, police and armed forces immune from prosecution... Bloody johnny foreignerTories eh.

Any evidence that protests are banned?

Any evidence that corruption is rife?

Any evidence that police and armed forces are immune from prosecution?


(If you have any then that's fine, and I've got evidence - freely available that they clearly aren't)


So the words you seem to be missing are that there are instances of such examples, but they aren't the norm.

[Jshooters]

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2021/07/13/downing-street-has-cancelled-a-reception-for-englands-footballers-13-favourite-reactions/

[Andy @ Allerton!]

New poll up

[bigbonedrawky]

Any evidence that protests are banned?

Any evidence that corruption is rife?

Any evidence that police and armed forces are immune from prosecution?


(If you have any then that's fine, and I've got evidence - freely available that they clearly aren't)


So the words you seem to be missing are that there are instances of such examples, but they aren't the norm.

Sorry Andy I didn't realise I had to be so lliteral I must try harder but I did'nt say it was the norm either.
I'd be interested in this evidence that corruption isnt rife amongst these Tories ...Or are we talking about Cuba here ?   

New poll up

No cheese option !!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Sorry Andy I didn't realise I had to be so lliteral I must try harder but I did'nt say it was the norm either.
I'd be interested in this evidence that corruption isnt rife amongst these Tories ...Or are we talking about Cuba here ?   
 No cheese option !!

I have fixed my disgraceful oversight

But yeah, I just think this thread - we have time and space to discuss stuff, so getting a little more granular and specific always helps.

I mean, I'm sure there is and has been corruption in any Party - people are people - you hope that most people are decent, honest, truthful and worthy - but history and life shows us that sometimes that's not the case.

And although we might not like the Tories and find their actions piss-poor most of the time, again, there are Tory voters and Tory politicians that are going to be really nice, decent, honest people that want the best for the country. It's just their idealogy means that they feel their path is the best way for everyone.

[Yorkykopite]

Personally I was just interested in what was happening in Cuba. 

70 years of dictatorship is it?  Surprised more hasn’t been made of it.

The press has been slow on the uptake, although the Times carries a longer piece today.

Normally when civil protests against dictatorships happen you can rely - rightly so - on the left in this country spreading the word and supporting the protestors. But there are quite large elements of the British left which have supported the one-party state in Cuba for a long time and therefore are silent and embarrassed. The same happened over the mass protests in Venezuela recently. Then the Labour party was actually led by a regime apologist who did his best to ignore the terrible police violence, astonishing food shortages and masses of refugees trying to get out of Venezuela. These apologists seem emotionally invested in Cuba and Venezuela because those dictatorships flaunt the magic words 'socialism' and 'revolution'. That investment requires the critical faculties to be closed down and - as we saw with Corbyn - can lead to a situation where they literally cannot say a word about a major catastrophe. 

Cuba is not in a state of catastrophe like Venezuela was, though its regime is just as brutal. But it's early days. Let's see where this one goes. 

[Yorkykopite]

But yeah, I just think this thread - we have time and space to discuss stuff, so getting a little more granular and specific always helps.

You're wrong Andy and Boned is right. There's no difference at all between life in the UK and life in Cuba. In fact the British regime just closed the entire internet down last night like the Communists did in Cuba. Sadly, this little post of protest will therefore never see the light of day.

[Sangria]

The press has been slow on the uptake, although the Times carries a longer piece today.

Normally when civil protests against dictatorships happen you can rely - rightly so - on the left in this country spreading the word and supporting the protestors. But there are quite large elements of the British left which have supported the one-party state in Cuba for a long time and therefore are silent and embarrassed. The same happened over the mass protests in Venezuela recently. Then the Labour party was actually led by a regime apologist who did his best to ignore the terrible police violence, astonishing food shortages and masses of refugees trying to get out of Venezuela. These apologists seem emotionally invested in Cuba and Venezuela because those dictatorships flaunt the magic words 'socialism' and 'revolution'. That investment requires the critical faculties to be closed down and - as we saw with Corbyn - can lead to a situation where they literally cannot say a word about a major catastrophe. 

Cuba is not in a state of catastrophe like Venezuela was, though its regime is just as brutal. But it's early days. Let's see where this one goes. 

As Orwell noted, that type of left winger, identifiable by their opposition to the west, are loyal to an ideology rather than the people affected by that ideology. They are often more adamant about the worthiness of that ideology that those affected by it. As such, they share the salient feature of the 1990s neoliberals that I despised them for: a belief in the pure implementation of their ideas, as long as they don't have to experience them themselves.

On a similar note, on that cricket forum I mentioned elsewhere, there's a thread discussing the Taliban's takeover of Afghanistan. There's a poster diverting blame by saying that the west are just as bad, and there are a load of actual Pakistani posters raining on him for being an enthusiast about the Taliban whilst sitting safely in a western country half the world away.

[PaulF]

Was Blair's govn't pretty much as good as it gets? Did Brown follow in his footsteps, or did things go downhill under Brown?
IF Blair's was good, should we try to get back to that as a starting point? (And why did labour ceed power if it was good, I'd guess loss of control of the media)
I don't really follow politics, is there a government anywhere in the world you'd be happy to bring in here, warts and all?

[Elmo!]

I get the point about the left and Cuba being made, and don't disagree, but it is also worth noting it took what, about half a page of comments about the left and Corbyn etc before anyone really made any comments about what was happening in Cuba, so it does come across a bit as using what is going on there as a stick to beat Corbyn etc with.

[Yorkykopite]

I get the point about the left and Cuba being made, and don't disagree, but it is also worth noting it took what, about half a page of comments about the left and Corbyn etc before anyone really made any comments about what was happening in Cuba, so it does come across a bit as using what is going on there as a stick to beat Corbyn etc with.

As somebody explained this is really a thread about British politics.

Plus it was also suggested that we don't rightly know what is going on there because of the paucity of reports (and the fact that Cuba has closed down the internet).

[Sangria]

I get the point about the left and Cuba being made, and don't disagree, but it is also worth noting it took what, about half a page of comments about the left and Corbyn etc before anyone really made any comments about what was happening in Cuba, so it does come across a bit as using what is going on there as a stick to beat Corbyn etc with.

I take the same position as I did when the neoliberals were preaching about what should be done in Russia: it's none of our business, and it's especially obnoxious when you say that they should listen to you while you don't have to experience the results.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Was Blair's govn't pretty much as good as it gets? Did Brown follow in his footsteps, or did things go downhill under Brown?
IF Blair's was good, should we try to get back to that as a starting point? (And why did labour ceed power if it was good, I'd guess loss of control of the media)
I don't really follow politics, is there a government anywhere in the world you'd be happy to bring in here, warts and all?

Blair resigned and Brown carried the can for the global credit crunch. the electorate thought that Labour over spent  on a bloated public sector   - Despite this the Tories only got power via a coalition with the Lib Dems .

They introduced the minimum wage 
brought in Uni tuition fees
introduced PFI that allowed private companies to run public sector contracts
brought about devolution for the other nations
Thet are credited with peace in Ireland although this process was started by the previous Tory government however they got it over the line

The country was a lot more united then than now


that Government will always be  remembered for the Iraq war and the suspicious death of a weapons inspector called David Kelly
plus cosying upto Rupert Murdoch - some see this as a necessary evil to gain power given his influence
Andy Burnham accused Blair of blocking a Hillsborough inquiry as a favour to Murdoch

Blair is godfather to Murdoch daughter

[Zeb]

Blair's immigration policy only looks good because of what followed. His argument would be that much could have been headed off if people like me hadn't resisted ID cards so much and he'd felt able to reduce the importance of immigration in public debate without the authoritarian signals his Home Office gave off every chance it could get. I'm less convinced that boosting messages that signal 'asylum seekers bad' was helpful in any circumstance. There's some evidence to suggest that those signals actually helped amplify 'concerns' in things like welfare leading to a perception that lots of people were taking the piss and making austerity messaging a piece of piss for the Tories.

(Some general sourcing of outcomes of Labour's policies on asylum seekers: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/inside-yarl-s-wood-britain-s-shame-over-child-detainees-1674380.html )

Tons of good done but a lot of lessons to learn from in the failures even in domestic policy.

[bigbonedrawky]

I have fixed my disgraceful oversight

But yeah, I just think this thread - we have time and space to discuss stuff, so getting a little more granular and specific always helps.

I mean, I'm sure there is and has been corruption in any Party - people are people - you hope that most people are decent, honest, truthful and worthy - but history and life shows us that sometimes that's not the case.

And although we might not like the Tories and find their actions piss-poor most of the time, a lotgain, there are Tory voters and Tory politicians that are going to be really nice, decent, honest people that want the best for the country. It's just their idealogy means that they feel their path is the best way for everyone.

After all the ppe , track and trace, spamerons favour, jobs for snogs and russian cash for access oh and the arms dealers wife...I think theres plenty of corruption and  your been very kind to them there but they're the kind of people who will take kindness for weakness.
You're right in that you can't tar them all with the same brush though ...some of them are just c#nts



And a few of them will have their heart in the right place.

[stewil007]

And a few of them will have their heart in the right place.

saw Baroness Warsi on The Last Leg and didn't realise she was Tory, ripped into her own quite a few times.  My guess is that she can do this now she is in the Lords.

They always seem reasonable after the fact, not during.  Probably a massive generalisation, but just the way it seems to me.

[rob1966]

saw Baroness Warsi on The Last Leg and didn't realise she was Tory, ripped into her own quite a few times.  My guess is that she can do this now she is in the Lords.

They always seem reasonable after the fact, not during.  Probably a massive generalisation, but just the way it seems to me.

Thought exactly the same, she seemed to despise Patel especially I thought.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I find it interesting the number of people I've spoken to Starmer about that say "He's shite" and "He never pulls the Tories up"

When I ask them if they regularly watch PMQT, they say no. When I ask them if they read the articles or opinions he writes they say no. When I asked them if they've seen his press conferences or discussions on his views they say no.


Does not compute. How can you slag someone off for 'being shit and getting the message out there' when you're not observing or paying attention to anything they do or say?

[Wild Romany Boy]

I find it interesting the number of people I've spoken to Starmer about that say "He's shite" and "He never pulls the Tories up"

When I ask them if they regularly watch PMQT, they say no. When I ask them if they read the articles or opinions he writes they say no. When I asked them if they've seen his press conferences or discussions on his views they say no.


Does not compute. How can you slag someone off for 'being shit and getting the message out there' when you're not observing or paying attention to anything they do or say?

There is a marketing problem there Andy. You might have a great message but you need the right medium.

PMQs isn't it. It might be that newspaper articles aren't it either. I will say this, the tories are, currently, much better on social media than Labour are, but that won't fix all of the communication problems.

PMQs will not get the audience to change much, and he's very good at the format.

[reddebs]

I find it interesting the number of people I've spoken to Starmer about that say "He's shite" and "He never pulls the Tories up"

When I ask them if they regularly watch PMQT, they say no. When I ask them if they read the articles or opinions he writes they say no. When I asked them if they've seen his press conferences or discussions on his views they say no.


Does not compute. How can you slag someone off for 'being shit and getting the message out there' when you're not observing or paying attention to anything they do or say?

I'd guess it's because he's not making headlines for any of the stuff he does either on the TV news or print media so therefore he's not doing a worthwhile job.

People are lazy mate, they want it spelling out for them rather than find out for themselves.

[Welshred]

There is a marketing problem there Andy. You might have a great message but you need the right medium.

PMQs isn't it. It might be that newspaper articles aren't it either. I will say this, the tories are, currently, much better on social media than Labour are, but that won't fix all of the communication problems.

PMQs will not get the audience to change much, and he's very good at the format.

Its a huge marketing problem. I saw someone post Tyrone Mings's tweet in the England v Italy match thread and ask why he's more effective an opposition than the actual opposition. Labour had statements and tweets out from several members of the cabinet as well as their own backbenchers on it whilst Starmer dedicated PMQs to showing Johnson and the governments hypocrisy on racism and their support of the England team yet you'll only see it in the news when a footballer does it. Labour do many of the things people ask them to do in opposition yet its just not being reported on and that's a huge issue.

[Zeb]

In the same way people can list something they believe someone did wrong and it have no relationship with events which happened. It's their general feeling rather than the specifics and facts will be tailored to fit. Generally, people don't pay attention to the leader of the opposition all that much away from them starting the job and then during an election campaign.

Definite change in approach since Batley and Spen and Starmer changing his team, although events allowing it to happen as much as anything?

[killer-heels]

There is a marketing problem there Andy. You might have a great message but you need the right medium.

PMQs isn't it. It might be that newspaper articles aren't it either. I will say this, the tories are, currently, much better on social media than Labour are, but that won't fix all of the communication problems.

PMQs will not get the audience to change much, and he's very good at the format.

PMQ's are shite and it was ridiculous how much people put stock in that. Even when Corbyn was doing bad at them, it had little to no impact but was a stick to beat him with. Its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

[HarryLabrador]

Thought exactly the same, she seemed to despise Patel especially I thought.

Not surprising. Furthermore, listening to James O'Brien this morning, heard Patel's dad stood as a UKIP candidate in 2013!!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/30/ukip-sushil-patel-candidate

[stewil007]

A huge problem because how would you even begin to counter that?

Surely the only answer to that is to hold your nose and get in bed with some of those undesirables that are listened to...….

The end justifying the means and all that

[Welshred]

A huge problem because how would you even begin to counter that?

Surely the only answer to that is to hold your nose and get in bed with some of those undesirables that are listened to...….

The end justifying the means and all that

This in effect. There's a lot of criticism of Blair because he got into bed with Murdoch but when Murdoch's press have such a wide reaching range, so much so that every party it has backed since Thatcher in 79 has gone on to assume power, you kinda have to bite your tongue a little bit and do it.