Topic: The Klopp Template

[RedG13]

Pretty sure they’d have liked not to rush Thiago back tonight too. But yes, spot on, case of brining them on for the max time they could go for.

Yea, Klopp always handles bringing player back with caution, listening to the medical team it seems and sometimes it might cost in the game as a result

[BobPaisley3]

Klopp said we were too wide and thats exactly right. Its not compact enough, you lose the ball and the gaps on the transition are huge and its far too much physically for us to cover. This experiment with a one man midfield needs to stop.

Its quite exciting though. If you remember in 20/21, City had this same issue that they were conceding too many and Guardiola acknowledged that and they became more sterile and won 2 leagues.

We have the best manager in the world. He will sort it.

Jurgen has had his counter press taken away, it’s horrible to watch but also intriguing to see where he goes from here.

[Knight]

Thing is, that’s always been a problem with Milner and Henderson in midfield … they’re not comfortable receiving the ball on half turn or in tight areas so pull out wide where there is space. We’ve had that issue for years it’s just now becoming more and more brutal as their legs have gone. Just comes back to really poor squad planning in the summer.

Very true. They always vacated midfield but at least they ran. The weird thing is we're putting Harvey so wide right we're just deliberately vacating the midfield these days. Maybe that'd work if the team was an absolute demon as soon as we lost the ball and we were able to cover for the fact we're only really playing 2 CMs but the team isn't that and one of the CMs is Milner who can't run anymore.

[killer-heels]

Thing is, that’s always been a problem with Milner and Henderson in midfield … they’re not comfortable receiving the ball on half turn or in tight areas so pull out wide where there is space. We’ve had that issue for years it’s just now becoming more and more brutal as their legs have gone. Just comes back to really poor squad planning in the summer.

Yes physically we look poor but at least with a compact set up the gaps can be closed. We have a very odd set up. Look at how we played against Everton, basically with 4 wingers.

I feel like I am picking on Harvey Elliott but that experiment with him on the right needs to stop. We need a more compact set up. We have an amazing full back in Trent and there should be cover for him. At the moment it has to be Fabinho and that drags him here, there and everywhere.

[Knight]

Jurgen has had his counter press taken away, it’s horrible to watch but also intriguing to see where he goes from here.

Put Keita and Thiago in this team and the team counter presses properly. That's the tragedy of it. We're a couple of midfield signings away (who could do what we need from our midfield if and when Thiago and Keita are injured) from being mostly fine.

[killer-heels]

Jurgen has had his counter press taken away, it’s horrible to watch but also intriguing to see where he goes from here.

The system isnt design to counter press. Who do we counter press? The full backs? The full backs just need to get the ball to the midfielders and we have at times 3 players out the game on one side.

[Asam]

Yes physically we look poor but at least with a compact set up the gaps can be closed. We have a very odd set up. Look at how we played against Everton, basically with 4 wingers.

I feel like I am picking on Harvey Elliott but that experiment with him on the right needs to stop. We need a more compact set up. We have an amazing full back in Trent and there should be cover for him. At the moment it has to be Fabinho and that drags him here, there and everywhere.

Someone is trying to be too clever, we’re not getting the basics right

[BobPaisley3]

Put Keita and Thiago in this team and the team counter presses properly. That's the tragedy of it. We're a couple of midfield signings away (who could do what we need from our midfield if and when Thiago and Keita are injured) from being mostly fine.

To an extent yes but the first counter press can be the front players, we’ve gone from having the same front 3 players literally week in week out, to a different front 3 virtually every game. They don’t know eachothers triggers or running patterns. As you say, the midfield is a mess but the attack, when we’re out of possession isn’t at all cohesive.

[Midget]

Honestly, I don't even know what I'm watching anymore. What is the template?

[BobPaisley3]

The system isnt design to counter press. Who do we counter press? The full backs? The full backs just need to get the ball to the midfielders and we have at times 3 players out the game on one side.

Depends where the ball is when we lose it. We’re losing it an awful lot at the moment so take your pick- full back, centre backs, midfield- anywhere.

[Knight]

To an extent yes but the first counter press can be the front players, we’ve gone from having the same front 3 players literally week in week out, to a different front 3 virtually every game. They don’t know eachothers triggers or running patterns. As you say, the midfield is a mess but the attack, when we’re out of possession isn’t at all cohesive.

True, I'm partly going on Klopp's comments about how it was only when Thiago came on that we counter pressed properly. Although I'm not sure it's about 'each other's triggers. The triggers are situation specific right? It's not like offensive stuff where being on the same 'wavelength' is important, rather there are pressing triggers for the entire team which players just fit into depending on their position.

[MonsLibpool]

Put Keita and Thiago in this team and the team counter presses properly. That's the tragedy of it. We're a couple of midfield signings away (who could do what we need from our midfield if and when Thiago and Keita are injured) from being mostly fine.

Really? I thought wanting a net spend above £4m when we are on top makes me a bedwetter? The same midfield almost won us a quad last season so apparently we must not make changes and we're the cleverest operators in the transfer market.

We were outspent by Westham and Nottingham Forest but we are building a new stand that'll help us win the league and CL THIS season. Genius that!

[HeartAndSoul]

If we’re not counter pressing anymore there’s no need for our defenders to be on the halfway line

[killer-heels]

Depends where the ball is when we lose it. We’re losing it an awful lot at the moment so take your pick- full back, centre backs, midfield- anywhere.

Teams with possession will always lose it, its how quickly you get it back. If a team knows they can get at you once you lose it then they will sit back all the time. What you need to be able to do is break their spirit by ensuring you win it back quickly or show you are going nowhere.

We have been absolutely brutal in transition for this whole season.

[BobPaisley3]

True, I'm partly going on Klopp's comments about how it was only when Thiago came on that we counter pressed properly. Although I'm not sure it's about 'each other's triggers. The triggers are situation specific right? It's not like offensive stuff where being on the same 'wavelength' is important, rather there are pressing triggers for the entire team which players just fit into depending on their position.

Can be yes but there will be a range of scenarios that will come up frequently in games, particularly for a side like us who have possession deep in opposition territory a lot. It might be something as simple as Mane would go and press a ball immediately after we lose it where as Nunez might delay. The traditional front 3 were incredible in their ability to press together and recognise the right times to do it.

[Cid]

I think the quilts who would criticise the manager in here should remember that Klopp asked for another player can got a loanee that hasn't played for months.  He outright said he'd prefer we spend a bit more, risk a little more.

Klopp is a team player so this is as close as you'll get to him telling fans that FSG aren't backing him financially.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Okay we obviously aren't going to be winning the league or European cup this season so hopefully Jurgen uses the season to get rid of the dead wood and bring through the kids. Also no more screwing around by FSG, please please back the manager and he'll get us back challanging next season again.

[lionel_messias]

The template only works with a very finely tuned and drilled
midfield. And an Imperious Virgil has helped.

Afraid, we have lost levels on both. Feels like we need
a couple of new monster pressers and we need a new shape in attack too.

Proper issues for Klopp to sort out. As an amateur,
I think 4-2-3-1 might suit is but what do I know.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Good twitter thread on our strange system and why it is also leading to our sloppy start

Colin Spreag
@ColinSpreag
The spaces both laterally and vertically are so big, so frequently for Liverpool.

You can't play a possession game, built around a 3-man base (CBs & Fabinho) whilst being so far away from each other in possession that any turnover can be turned into a counter attack.

Liverpool set up to play around their opposition's shape as opposed to through it or over it. The issue is that if there is a central turnover, there is a combination of no pressure on the ball (positional inferiority) and being outnumbered (numerical inferiority).

When you add in that their current midfielders are all either poor / untrained 1v1 defenders (Milner/Elliott) or out of form (Fabinho), you also have technical inferiority in central areas during defensive transitions.

It's a recipe for, well, everything seen this season so far.

When you add in that the potential covering defenders (ie full backs) are normally ahead of the ball, you're then relying on the CBs to defend half a field on their own multiple times a game.

So, potential tweaks to help?

- close the gaps in midfield either by adding another player to the base (4231)
- more conservative positioning of the full backs in possession
- better ball handlers playing in between the opposition shape to limit defensive transitions

The obvious one for me is to attack more compactly, however you decide to do that, which by default means more numbers around the ball and in central areas when it is lost.

Essentially, treat the center of midfield like City do.

The issue there is that you can't do that with either or both of Milner / Henderson in there - but with two from Thiago / Elliott / Arthur / Naby (I know...) in there, maybe you can.

https://twitter.com/ColinSpreag/status/1567624749550866432

[d.arn]

If we’re not counter pressing anymore there’s no need for our defenders to be on the halfway line

Obviously, Klopp wants us to counter press. It's always been the foundation of his philosophy. For whatever reason, it isn't working at the moment.

Klopp wants to play the high line to facilitate the high press, but we're getting caught in game after game. I get why people want to sit a bit deeper to stop that, but if it's part of how Klopp wants to play, then we should play like that.

I do think, however, that if we are to play with our CBs on the halfway line, they need to be tactically drilled to know when to fall. And they need to be able to make that decision themselves, on the pitch. If the opponent beats our press, they need to fall. If it looks like we aren't close enough to press the ball carrier, they need to fall.

There were several times tonight (and in previous games) where an opponent has the ball somewhere in their half and no one is close enough to press and they can just ping balls over our back four, stood at the halfway line. I mean, you don't need to be Xabi Alonso to do that, you have half a football pitch to aim at. I could do that.

If they start to fall when they realize this, then at least they are going the same way as the attackers when the ball is played. Now, they are facing the wrong way and have to catch up with a player who's already up to speed.

[Knight]

Good twitter thread on our strange system and why it is also leading to our sloppy start

Colin Spreag
@ColinSpreag
The spaces both laterally and vertically are so big, so frequently for Liverpool.

You can't play a possession game, built around a 3-man base (CBs & Fabinho) whilst being so far away from each other in possession that any turnover can be turned into a counter attack.

Liverpool set up to play around their opposition's shape as opposed to through it or over it. The issue is that if there is a central turnover, there is a combination of no pressure on the ball (positional inferiority) and being outnumbered (numerical inferiority).

When you add in that their current midfielders are all either poor / untrained 1v1 defenders (Milner/Elliott) or out of form (Fabinho), you also have technical inferiority in central areas during defensive transitions.

It's a recipe for, well, everything seen this season so far.

When you add in that the potential covering defenders (ie full backs) are normally ahead of the ball, you're then relying on the CBs to defend half a field on their own multiple times a game.

So, potential tweaks to help?

- close the gaps in midfield either by adding another player to the base (4231)
- more conservative positioning of the full backs in possession
- better ball handlers playing in between the opposition shape to limit defensive transitions

The obvious one for me is to attack more compactly, however you decide to do that, which by default means more numbers around the ball and in central areas when it is lost.

Essentially, treat the center of midfield like City do.

The issue there is that you can't do that with either or both of Milner / Henderson in there - but with two from Thiago / Elliott / Arthur / Naby (I know...) in there, maybe you can.

https://twitter.com/ColinSpreag/status/1567624749550866432

Defjack was saying all this the other day. Deserved a ban for it to be honest. It was abhorrent.

[CalgarianRed]

Klopp template is not working and he needs to step.

[Dave McCoy]

Talking about Thiago or Arthur just ignores the issue that the situation was what it was and the coaching staff should have adjusted for that. Instead we just did the same thing as we've done this season which really hasn't worked to anywhere near the level required.  Unless there was a massive improvement in how the midfield and attack worked together against ManU it was clear as day what was going to happen. Milner would be a non-entity, Firmino would drop back and we'd just take huge risks to try to score while being completely wide open at the back.

[Dave McCoy]

Defjack was saying all this the other day. Deserved a ban for it to be honest. It was abhorrent.

Yeah, conveniently forgetting the part that unlike this twitter poster he claimed Klopp/Ljinders were past it, Elliott was a scrub and other players were just as bad. Nobody argued the tactics part, just the stuff he eventually apologized for oddly enough.

[thegoodfella]

Last season was brilliant in every aspect, and I think this season will be 'fun' for different reasons. Should be an interesting ride, but I am certain Klopp will sort this out.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Teams seem to be playing a common tactic against us. One player will make a forward run past our defence into an offside position. The defence will hold the high-line to keep them off-side.

Meanwhile a second player will make later run. The player on the ball will shape to pass to the off-side player but actually plays through the second runner, leaving the defence flat-footed. 

Napoli did this very well.

[Eeyore]

Talking about Thiago or Arthur just ignores the issue that the situation was what it was and the coaching staff should have adjusted for that. Instead we just did the same thing as we've done this season which really hasn't worked to anywhere near the level required.  Unless there was a massive improvement in how the midfield and attack worked together against ManU it was clear as day what was going to happen. Milner would be a non-entity, Firmino would drop back and we'd just take huge risks to try to score while being completely wide open at the back.

The issue is that the midfield is absolutely fundamental to how Klopp wants to play the game.

He needs the tools to do his job. He quite simply hasn't been backed in the transfer market.

[Eeyore]

Teams seem to be playing a common tactic against us. One player will make a forward run past our defence into an offside position. The defence will hold the high-line to keep them off-side.

Meanwhile a second player will make later run. The player on the ball will shape to pass to the off-side player but actually plays through the second runner, leaving the defence flat-footed. 

Napoli did this very well.

That only happens though because there is no pressure on the ball.

[Dave McCoy]

Teams seem to be playing a common tactic against us. One player will make a forward run past our defence into an offside position. The defence will hold the high-line to keep them off-side.

Meanwhile a second player will make later run. The player on the ball will shape to pass to the off-side player but actually plays through the second runner, leaving the defence flat-footed. 

Napoli did this very well.

Right, but then why does the player on the ball have the time to wait for the 2nd run to then make the pass? If you can’t pressure the ball you have to drop. We aren’t pressuring the ball nor dropping and it makes the game laughably easy for the opponents. Klopp is right in that Wolves players would be laughing watching this in preparation for the weekend as you almost have to try to be that bad.

[Dave McCoy]

The issue is that the midfield is absolutely fundamental to how Klopp wants to play the game.

He needs the tools to do his job. He quite simply hasn't been backed in the transfer market.

So he should have resigned then? Is that what your saying? Because otherwise backed or not backed you either put your players in a position to succeed or you don’t. What would you call what we are seeing?

[rossipersempre]

The issue is that the midfield is absolutely fundamental to how Klopp wants to play the game.

He needs the tools to do his job. He quite simply hasn't been backed in the transfer market.

Made a rod for his own back you feel, after last season’s efforts. Complacency by all parties though not just FSG.

[Funky_Gibbons]

That only happens though because there is no pressure on the ball.

Absolutely, which once again comes down to the lack of depth in midfield. 

Having to play a 36-year old on one side and a 19-year old on the other is not ideal. Even with Thiago coming back we really need re;ying on Arthur hitting the ground running. 

But defensively we look all over the place too. Trent and Gomez on the RHS look vulnerable with every attack down that side.

[Eeyore]

So he should have resigned then? Is that what your saying? Because otherwise backed or not backed you either put your players in a position to succeed or you don’t. What would you call what we are seeing?

What we are seeing is a Coach sticking to his principles. He does that because it works a huge amount of the time. You can't drill players to react to triggers and then turn the triggers off because you are short of midfield players.

[Eeyore]

Made a rod for his own back you feel, after last season’s efforts. Complacency by all parties though not just FSG.

It has been going on for 3 or 4 years Rossi. FSG have pushed the recruitment can down the road. We have continually made conscious decisions to leave ourselves short in key areas. We then spunk next season's budget sorting out last season's problems.

Players will always be more affordable next season because they have a year less on their contract. Whilst we wait, our squad ages and players leave on frees, or get huge deals after a stand off with the recruitment team. 

[KirkVanHouten]

Absolutely, which once again comes down to the lack of depth in midfield. 

Having to play a 36-year old on one side and a 19-year old on the other is not ideal. Even with Thiago coming back we really need re;ying on Arthur hitting the ground running. 

But defensively we look all over the place too. Trent and Gomez on the RHS look vulnerable with every attack down that side.

Trent has been abysmal and Matip improved us a lot when he replaced Gomez. However, I do think that it stems from Elliott playing RCM. He just doesn't offer enough defensive cover to Trent. The bizarre part is we don't even seem to benefit from overloading the RHS when we attack. Maybe with Thiago back we'll control the ball better and it will improve.

Personally I think Elliott has so much talent but he doesn't suit us in midfield unless someone else can do his running e.g. a Kante type. Milner + Elliott is just destined for failure as we are just too slow. The lack of control reminds me of when we would play Shaqiri in midfield.

[Dave McCoy]

What we are seeing is a Coach sticking to his principles. He does that because it works a huge amount of the time. You can't drill players to react to triggers and then turn the triggers off because you are short of midfield players.

This is why we can never have nice things Al. Your insistence that the owners are terrible consistently blind you to the truth in almost any discussion. If we took your words at face value then you are saying that Klopp wasn’t backed and therefore is insisting on using tactics that can’t possibly work with what he was left with. That’s insane.

[harleydanger]

 Imagine the fume when Naby comes back in, we 5 on the bounce 5-0 and he gets injured again

[anandg_lfc]

Klopp's post match interview was interesting. Mentioned about the distance between players and the shape. Hoping to see some much needed changes. I wont be surprised to see gomez and tsimikas play as first choice fb's in the short term. It is high time we shifted our shape based on our current personnel rather than expecting the likes of milner and elliott to put a huge defensive shift.

--------------Alisson-------------------

Gomez---Matip------VVD-----Tsimikas

---------Fabinho-------Thiago----------

Salah-----------Diaz---------------Jota

-----------------Nunez------------------

[Passmaster Molby]

The issue is that the midfield is absolutely fundamental to how Klopp wants to play the game.

He needs the tools to do his job. He quite simply hasn't been backed in the transfer market.

Just playing devils advocate here, but;

Fabinho 52 mill
Keita 55 mill
Ox 40 mill
Thiago 20 mill
 
That’s a pretty big chunk of money on midfield. FSG might argue why over 100 mill was spent on 3 players who aren’t robust enough to play over 30 intense games a season like a Wijnaldum can (who cost 25mill)

[ScouserAtHeart]

Trying to fit in Elliott and Nunez into the same template as the last 7 years won't work