Topic: The Labour Party (*)

[Alan_X]

Labour are probably still ahead of the Tories on the NHS. Jeremy Corbyn, on the other hand…

14 Jan 2017

ComRes have a poll in the Independent/Sunday Mirror tonight. The finding that has got the most attention is a question asking who people think would do “a better job at managing the NHS this winter”. 31% of people picked Jeremy Corbyn and Labour, 43% of people picked Theresa May and the Conservatives.

This is a very unusual result. The NHS is, essentially, Labour’s issue of last resort. Whatever happens, however bad things look, the public will almost always say they trust Labour more on the NHS. Over on Ipsos MORI’s website they have data on the question going back to 1978… and you have to go back to 1978 to find the Tories ahead. If you go back to the time of the Brown government when the Conservatives were on a high there were a couple of polls from other companies when the Tories scraped a lead on the NHS, but it is extremely rare. A twelve point Tory lead on the NHS would be unheard of.

The reason for this strange result is probably the wording. YouGov ask “best party on issues” regularly, and still consistently find Labour ahead. Just this month they found 28% trusted Labour most on the NHS compared to 20% for the Tories. The difference with the ComRes question is that they did not ask just which party people trusted on the NHS, the choice was between “Theresa May & the Conservatives” or “Jeremy Corbyn & Labour” to manage the NHS. The introduction of the two leaders into the question probably explains why May & the Conservatives were ahead.

While this probably explains the difference, it should be scant comfort for Labour. If the mention of Jeremy Corbyn in a question is enough to make respondents doubt whether they’d trust Labour with the NHS – normally a banker for them – then imagine what he would do to people pondering whether they would trust Labour on the economy, security or whatever.

The other questions on the NHS were far more typical. While 71% agreed that the NHS provides a high standard of care, by 47% to 36% people did think the Red Cross were right to say the NHS was in crisis. That May/Conservative lead on the NHS should not be taken as an endorsement of their management either: only 12% of people agreed that Jeremy C*nt was doing well as Health secretary and 56% of people agreed with a statement that NHS care is worse than ten years ago.

Another question asked about high pay and is more encouraging for Jeremy Corbyn. A YouGov poll in the week asked about a pretty tough policy on high pay (a maximum earnings limit of £1m a year) and got a negative response: only 31% thought it a good idea, 44% a bad idea. ComRes asked about a much subtler policy (giving tax benefits or government contracts to companies with a maximum ratio of 20 to 1 between top and average salaries) and this got a much better reception, 57% thought they should, 30% thought the government should not interfere.

Opinium also have a new poll out tonight for the Observer – details here. They have topline voting intention figures of CON 38%(nc), LAB 30%(-1), LDEM 7%(+1), UKIP 14%(+1). The eight point lead is lower than most other polls show, but this seems to be a consistent pattern from Opinium – presumably for methodological reasons – rather than a drop since their previous poll.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

[Show Me The Exit]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/pmqs-showed-brexit-killing-labour/

"They've tried claiming to be the party of the 100% - while sounding like the party of the 0%"

Ouch.

And thus we get back to the problem that Labour have which is what the party stands for and why that is relevant to people. Not Corbyn who is, at best a distraction.

20 of the 25 constituencies that most wanted to stay in the EU are Labour. 20 of the 25 seats that most wanted to leave are also Labour.

If not Corbyn who else is there in the party who can appeal to all those voters?

The current favourite is apparently Keir Starmer - well he has said he is broadly in alignmnet with Teresa May's plans.

[filopastry]

Westminster VI:
CON: 42% (+3)
LAB: 25% (-3)
UKIP: 12% (-1)
LDEM: 11% (-)
(YouGov / fieldwork post-Tuesday)

Blimey Charlie..

I don't think there's much doubt at this stage, that the longer Brexit is the leading issue, the worse it is for Labour.

[killer-heels]

300 failing schools and violent crime on the increase. Labour doesnt just have to focus on the NHS. Add that to rising inflation then come the middle of the year there is so many avenues to attack.

[SP]

Labour’s claim to be the official opposition must break the Trade Descriptions Act. It comes after Labour claimed to have stopped hard Brexit the same day that Theresa May announced she would take us out of the single market - and I thought that was beyond parody.

Not only did Jeremy Corbyn fail to campaign against Brexit in the referendum, he is now actively helping Liam Fox, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and David Davis to pull Britain out of the single market at a huge cost to jobs and prosperity.

How can you profess to stand up for worker rights when you are conniving in a policy that will costs vast numbers of jobs? This shows that the Liberal Democrats are not only the real opposition to the Conservative Brexit government, we are now the only opposition.

Besides the SNP. The charges against Labour hit home though.

Corbyn says he will order Labour MPs to vote in favour of triggering article 50

Jeremy Corbyn has been speaking to Sky News this morning. He was asked about today’s Guardian story about how some shadow cabinet ministers may refuse to vote in favour of triggering article 50 if, as expected, the government loses the supreme court case and brings a bill to the Commons and he said he would order Labour MPs to vote in favour.

Asked if he would impose a three-line whip, he replied:

It is very clear. The referendum made a decision that Britain was to leave the European Union. It was not to destroy jobs or living standards or communities but it was to leave the European Union and to have a different relationship in the future.

I’ve made it very clear the Labour party accepts and respects the decision of the British people. We will not block article 50.

When asked if that meant a three-line whip (an order to MPs saying they would have to vote for the bill), he replied:

It means that Labour MPs will be asked to vote in that direction next week, or whenever the vote comes up.

Labour has always made it clear that it would not block legislation allowing the government to trigger article 50 (although some Labour MPs have said they will vote against). But Corbyn’s comments today are stronger than what has been said in the past. In November, when asked about Labour’s stance on the bill, Sir Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, said four times in an interview that Labour would “not simply vote down article 50”. Now Corbyn is saying they will actively vote in favour.

All from https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/19/breixt-talks-wil-get-very-nasty-says-former-british-ambassador-to-eu-politics-live

Jesus wept.

[Yorkykopite]

I love the idea of Corbyn imposing a three-line whip.

[Circa1892]

The old fraud "ordering" his MPs to vote for article 50.

Further proof he has never given a flying fuck what his members/voters want.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

The old fraud "ordering" his MPs to vote for article 50.

Further proof he has never given a flying fuck what his members/voters want.

That's me done, I was a Corbyn fan until today.

[Millie]

He's a hypocrite

[CornerFlag]

The irony of the Labour MPs voting against the whip.  Surely that would just destroy even more of his fragile hold over the party.

[Ray K]

I love the idea of Corbyn imposing a three-line whip.

Brilliant move. He'll defy the party whip on this because very old habits die hard, thus appealing to the Pro-Brexit and Anti-Brexit electorate simultaneously.

[The Gulleysucker]

I love the idea of Corbyn imposing a three-line whip.

If he goes ahead with this suggestion, as I think a few of us have noted since his lacklustre and generally evasive lack of wholehearted support for the remain campaign followed by his outburst of enthusiasm for immediate triggering of 50 after the referendum all combined with his continued lack of any positive enthusiasm for remaining in the EU ever since, this surely confirms he has never lost his Bennite view of the EU (he was a fervent teabagger after all).

I can only suppose that he and his close circle imagine a post-brexit EU collapse and a subsequent coalescing of left wing populist parties then coming to power throughout Europe and re-imagining a new EU into their idealist anti-corporate, anti-globalisation model.

But can anyone tell me the difference between the Labour party members abstaining from the Welfare bill vote the other year that came in for so much criticism from many on the left and was used as a trigger and evidence to get Corbyn elected, and this suggestion from him(or his close advisors) of a Whip on article 50 for Labour MP's to support the Tories? Seems just as bad to me, and undoubtedly far more damaging to the economy and for workers rights.

He might be principled, so people say, but he's obviously quite detached, though will no doubt be comfortable on his opposition leaders pension irrespective of outcome.

Nice work if you can get it I suppose but I can't help but wonder if he really cares about the rest of us or if it is all just posturing.

[oldfordie]

If he goes ahead with this suggestion, as I think a few of us have noted since his lacklustre and generally evasive lack of wholehearted support for the remain campaign followed by his outburst of enthusiasm for immediate triggering of 50 after the referendum all combined with his continued lack of any positive enthusiasm for remaining in the EU ever since, this surely confirms he has never lost his Bennite view of the EU (he was a fervent teabagger after all).

I can only suppose that he and his close circle imagine a post-brexit EU collapse and a subsequent coalescing of left wing populist parties then coming to power throughout Europe and re-imagining a new EU into their idealist anti-corporate, anti-globalisation model.

But can anyone tell me the difference between the Labour party members abstaining from the Welfare bill vote the other year that came in for so much criticism from many on the left and was used as a trigger and evidence to get Corbyn elected, and this suggestion from him(or his close advisors) of a Whip on article 50 for Labour MP's to support the Tories? Seems just as bad to me, and undoubtedly far more damaging to the economy and for workers rights.

He might be principled, so people say, but he's obviously quite detached, though will no doubt be comfortable on his opposition leaders pension irrespective of outcome.

Nice work if you can get it I suppose but I can't help but wonder if he really cares about the rest of us or if it is all just posturing.

Theres caring and finding it all very interesting, Corbyn belongs to the latter.

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Oh for christ sake. I saw Seamus Milne was trending and got my hopes up. Unfortunately he has taken a more permanent role at Labour after quitting the Guardian

[SenorGarcia]

Back in November:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/05/jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-brexit-bottom-line-article-50-early-election

What happened to this?

[TravisBickle]

That's it Jeremy, give the Tories free reign over the defining issue of our generation. Never mind the impact it will have on the people you supposedly care about, just give May a blank cheque and talk about social housing instead.

 Fucking fraud.

[Alan_X]

Besides the SNP. The charges against Labour hit home though.


All from https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/19/breixt-talks-wil-get-very-nasty-says-former-british-ambassador-to-eu-politics-live

Jesus wept.

From the same blog:

Clive Lewis says backing article 50 now, without further 'assurances', would not be good for his constituents

Clive Lewis, the shadow business secretary, has told his local paper, the Eastern Daily Press, that he wants to hear more assurances from the government before he backs legislation giving Theresa May the right to trigger article 50. He said:

    It is safe to say that I am deeply concerned at the direction that Theresa May and the Conservative government is taking these negotiations, and the developments that are taking place.

    I am very mindful of what the majority of constituents in Norwich South voted for, which is remain.

    I don’t think what is currently on the table, given the irreversibility of article 50, means that signing article 50 under these conditions is in the best interests of people in Norwich or the country.

    However it is the job of the opposition to see what we can get between now and March 31 in terms of assurances and guarantees and I think that will be critical to many people when they come to make their decision on this vote.

Lewis did not commit himself to refusing to back an article 50 bill, but his comment about how triggering it now, without further “assurances” from the government, would not be in the interests of his constituents is quite different from what Jeremy Corbyn was saying. (See 1.12pm.)

[Alan_X]

Back in November:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/05/jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-brexit-bottom-line-article-50-early-election

What happened to this?

Corbyn's four key demands:

The paper said that Corbyn’s four bottom lines were:

    UK access to 500 million customers in Europe’s single market.
    No watering down of EU workplace rights.
    Guarantees on safeguarding consumers and the environment.
    A promise that Britain will pick up the tab for any EU capital investment lost as a result of Brexit.

Without those demands being met he said Labour would block Article 50.

[Yorkykopite]

But can anyone tell me the difference between the Labour party members abstaining from the Welfare bill vote the other year that came in for so much criticism from many on the left and was used as a trigger and evidence to get Corbyn elected, and this suggestion from him(or his close advisors) of a Whip on article 50 for Labour MP's to support the Tories? Seems just as bad to me, and undoubtedly far more damaging to the economy and for workers rights.

Gulley's hit the nail on the head. Corbyn has unilaterally decided that the Labour party will back up everything May's government does on Europe. In other words it has told the country that it does not want to be the Opposition. This will carry on indefinitely, because Brexit will be the main political issue for many many years.

His motives are unclear. They may stem from a misguided populism - the belief that nationalism in England is so rampant now that Labour better become a nationalist party. They may express his sincere (if secret) conviction that the UK should be completely cut off from Europe in order to advance what he calls socialism. But it hardly matters. The upshot is worse than anything New Labour did or didn't do in Opposition. It means Corbyn and May are peas in a pod.   

[Anfield Ed]

Glad Corbyn will be able to achieve something he's spent most of the last 40 years campaigning for.

[Millie]

Glad Corbyn will be able to achieve something he's spent most of the last 40 years campaigning for.

and what is this clusterfuck going to achieve exactly?

[Yorkykopite]

and what is this clusterfuck going to achieve exactly?

I think Anfield Ed is probably as pissed off as you are mate.

[Millie]

I think Anfield Ed is probably as pissed off as you are mate.

I'm pretty sure he's pro Brexit

[Anfield Ed]

I'm pretty sure he's pro Brexit

Indeed I am.

[Cliff Bastin]

Indeed I am.

Brave man doing that on here lol. Everyone seems ardent EU supporters.

[SP]

Brave man doing that on here lol. Everyone seems ardent EU supporters.

Or as we prefer to term it, rational. The challenge has been repeatedly made on this board to state a coherent case for Brexit. No one has managed it.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Or as we prefer to term it, rational. The challenge has been repeatedly made on this board to state a coherent case for Brexit. No one has managed it.

Indeed, on this board or anywhere else for that matter.

[Cliff Bastin]

Or as we prefer to term it, rational. The challenge has been repeatedly made on this board to state a coherent case for Brexit. No one has managed it.

Tony Benn must not have been rational then or Dennis Skinner isn't a rational person. Plenty of legitimate reasons as to why people voted to leave the EU. Doesn't mean its going to be absolutely brilliant but reasons do exist which doesn't include racism. The UK won't be the last to leave the EU either.

[SP]

Indeed, on this board or anywhere else for that matter.

There are coherent cases that have been made elsewhere. Not by a mainstream politician, but you can make a coherent case predicated on a particular set of values. I could make a better argument for Leave than I have read, and certainly better than May has given, but I have no intention of doing so.

[SP]

Tony Benn must not have been rational then or Dennis Skinner isn't a rational person. Plenty of legitimate reasons as to why people voted to leave the EU. Doesn't mean its going to be absolutely brilliant but reasons do exist which doesn't include racism. The UK won't be the last to leave the EU either.

My post above answered this, before I read this. Just because it is possible, does not mean that most people's reasons are rational.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

There are coherent cases that have been made elsewhere. Not by a mainstream politician, but you can make a coherent case predicated on a particular set of values. I could make a better argument for Leave than I have read, and certainly better than May has given, but I have no intention of doing so.

Really. Personally I can't think of a single good reason to leave.

[Alan_X]

Tony Benn must not have been rational then or Dennis Skinner isn't a rational person. Plenty of legitimate reasons as to why people voted to leave the EU. Doesn't mean its going to be absolutely brilliant but reasons do exist which doesn't include racism. The UK won't be the last to leave the EU either.

But none of those left-wing reasons will come to pass if the people negotiating the exit process are at the opposite end of the political spectrum. You have to be a special kind of stupid to think that a Tory Brexit is going to be anything but a disaster for democratic socialism in this country.

The exception I suppose is if you're McDonnell and the Marxist nutters in the SWP who celebrated Brexit because it meant that capitalism as a whole might collapse. if you're a complete c*nt then maybe it's thrilling to seeing millions of people, especially the worse off, suffering severe hardship if it brings about a socialist paradise.

[oldfordie]

Really. Personally I can't think of a single good reason to leave.

Maybe your looking at it from your point of view, the man in the street.
What's good for the country sometimes isn't good for the man in the street.

[Cliff Bastin]

But none of those left-wing reasons will come to pass if the people negotiating the exit process are at the opposite end of the political spectrum. You have to be a special kind of stupid to think that a Tory Brexit is going to be anything but a disaster for democratic socialism in this country.

The exception I suppose is if you're McDonnell and the Marxist nutters in the SWP who celebrated Brexit because it meant that capitalism as a whole might collapse. if you're a complete c*nt then maybe it's thrilling to seeing millions of people, especially the worse off, suffering severe hardship if it brings about a socialist paradise.

That is for the Labour party to sort isn't it? They should be electing a leader who CAN win a general election but Labour have went from Tony Blair who was a winner even if you disagreed with him to Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband and now Jeremy Corbyn. The Marxists have taken over the Labour party.

Otherwise why the hell is Jeremy Corbyn still leading the party as the polls show he is doing an awful job. It was recently said Social Democrats/Democratic Socialism across Europe have run out of ideas and I tend to agree with that. Conservatism and populism is on the rise across Europe. Democratic Socialism I think is dead in the UK for a generation.

[zero zero]

Glad Corbyn will be able to achieve something he's spent most of the last 40 years campaigning for.

We were told repeatedly that Jeremy campaigned strenuously for Remain. We were even presented with the number of his media appearances to re-butt the suggestion that his campaigning had been half-arsed.

[Circa1892]

It's a shame they didn't wait to mount the "coup" until now. Corbyn has to have lost a lot of his student etc supporters with this...

[Cliff Bastin]

It's a shame they didn't wait to mount the "coup" until now. Corbyn has to have lost a lot of his student etc supporters with this...

Just keep doing it until he is gone. Its not democratic I know but the Labour Party is struggling. Needs a more balanced leader on policy who can attract a wider electorate.

[Yorkykopite]

Tony Benn must not have been rational then or Dennis Skinner isn't a rational person. Plenty of legitimate reasons as to why people voted to leave the EU. Doesn't mean its going to be absolutely brilliant but reasons do exist which doesn't include racism. The UK won't be the last to leave the EU either.

I agree. But the right-wing case is more "rational" than the left-wing one. Dennis Skinner is probably the biggest conservative in the House of Commons. His political views are stuck in Clay Cross and in 1972. He even dresses like it's 1972. Nothing that's happened since 1972 merits anything but scorn from Skinner, including feminism, gay rights and the multi-racial society we now live in. But time has destroyed his 1972 idea of "socialism in one country". Inevitably. Like Corbyn, he's a relic or a fossil.

Whereas the Tories do at least have a modern version of England outside Europe. (They're deluded it will be Britain of course). Theirs is a vision of an offshore tax haven, with zero immigration and an entirely de-regulated domestic economy with a non-unionised, docile and pliant workforce. Singapore without the maths skills basically. It's ghastly, but it's coherent and it could be made to work.

The only thing to be said in favour of Corbyn (and Skinner) is that this vision, if enacted, will sharpen class conflict (because when it comes down to it we are not Singapore) and allow them to feel relevant again for the first time in 40 years. They are old men, conservative to the core, who want to get back to the simple-minded politics of their youth.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Maybe your looking at it from your point of view, the man in the street.
What's good for the country sometimes isn't good for the man in the street.

The "man (woman) in the street" is the country.

[Cliff Bastin]

I agree. But the right-wing case is more "rational" than the left-wing one. Dennis Skinner is probably the biggest conservative in the House of Commons. His political views are stuck in Clay Cross and in 1972. He even dresses like it's 1972. Nothing that's happened since 1972 merits anything but scorn from Skinner, including feminism, gay rights and the multi-racial society we now live in. But time has destroyed his 1972 idea of "socialism in one country". Inevitably. Like Corbyn, he's a relic or a fossil.

Whereas the Tories do at least have a modern version of England outside Europe. (They're deluded it will be Britain of course). Theirs is a vision of an offshore tax haven, with zero immigration and an entirely de-regulated domestic economy with a non-unionised, docile and pliant workforce. Singapore without the maths skills basically. It's ghastly, but it's coherent and it could be made to work.

The only thing to be said in favour of Corbyn (and Skinner) is that this vision, if enacted, will sharpen class conflict (because when it comes down to it we are not Singapore) and allow them to feel relevant again for the first time in 40 years. They are old men, conservative to the core, who want to get back to the simple-minded politics of their youth.

He is old fashioned. I agree. But this list hasn't got him voting against gay rights? https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10544/dennis_skinner/bolsover/divisions?policy=826