Topic: The Labour Party (*)

[Dr. Beaker]

Not sure that's correct.

Rural employers seem to be becoming larger rather than smaller suppliers...  not quite the same..

You're right, that's not quite the same. So why are you bringing it up?

[oldfordie]

I got involved in these Labour threads for exactly that reason. My son has been shat on from a massive height because he suffers from a psychiatric condition that doesn't count with the bastards at ATOS. He hasn't been able to work for 15 years but he's judged fit for work and denied all benefits. I'm lucky enough to be able to support him otherwise he'd be on the streets.

I will continue to point out why Corbyn needs to go and why he needs to go because he's the first obstacle that's preventing what we all want (I hope) - a Labour govrnment. Once he's no longer leader the Party can perhaps start to address the very real problems that face the Labour party. There's nothing that you or I can do as individuals to get rid of the Tories - we need a competent leader and shadow cabinet to take the fight forward.

If that's 'shit-throwing' I make no apologies. There are far more important things than Jeremy Corbyn. he's had a go and failed.

Same here. not a mental health problem with my child but yrs in and out of hospital in the 80s+90s for serious condition, badly let down by the Tory government, thrown into mainstream schooling due to funding cuts which was a nightmare at times, people think were on the verge of a nervous breakdown the truth is you dont start fighting when the effects of the Tory attacks hit you you fight to stop them happening when you see it coming.

[TepidT2O]

You're right, that's not quite the same. So why are you bringing it up?

In my humble and unworthy opinion, I have stated what I think is actually happening, I don't think your position on this is correct.

# Doffs cap and gracefully retreats..

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

you dont start fighting when the effects of the Tory attacks hit you you fight to stop them happening when you see it coming.

How, exactly?

[Millie]

Unfortunately mental health does have a price.  Probably the most underfunded part of the NHS.

I used to have brilliant support and service access.  I had a CPN and a Support Worker.  Both were brilliant.  I also had access to stuff like free art classes - invaluable and I loved it.

Then the cuts started.  First I lost my CPN.  Then I lost my support worker.  Then I was told I didn't need access to the place I received the art classes anymore.  That facility has now closed down altogether.

Result - instead of my health being kept on an even keel, so to speak.  I am now left alone at home being told to "take the tablets".  I get no support whatsover. 

It's all just so wrong and so unfair.

[classycarra]

Unfortunately mental health does have a price.  Probably the most underfunded part of the NHS.

Certainly one of the most undervalued. I work in Public Health where everything we do is evidence-based and, if properly resourced andfunded, prevents a vast number of people needing to present to the NHS. Even on the rare occasions any health cuts are overturned or re-funded, it's usually short-termist rather than tackling any of social determinants of health that would help the entire population. This country's, particularly this government's, record on mental health and social is a national disgrace.

[oldfordie]

How, exactly?

Are you talking about Brexit or personal problems.?
Whatever way you can and that obviously depends on your problem. we have MPs and Councillors. you join unions and support other unions. you don't judge others when they go on strike, we never learn the full truth in these disputes. you dont join the race to the bottom. you dont have to take to the streets to protest, you sign petitions over issues you support.
I could go into politics but you vote Labour 99% of the time.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Are you talking about Brexit or personal problems.?
Whatever way you can and that obviously depends on your problem. we have MPs and Councillors. you join unions and support other unions. you don't judge others when they go on strike, we never learn the full truth in these disputes. you dont join the race to the bottom. you dont have to take to the streets to protest, you sign petitions over issues you support.
I could go into politics but you vote Labour 99% of the time.

I never judge strikers (in fact I support them all). I'm not sure what "the race to the bottom" is. I sign countless petitions. Circumstances prevent me from voting, however I generally don't vote - politicians aren't in charge, the media and large corporations are. There should be a lot more taking to the streets to protest.

[Yorkykopite]

There should be a lot more taking to the streets to protest.

What's stopping you?

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

What's stopping you?

On my own?

I'd just look like a madman....

[Alan_X]

There should be a lot more taking to the streets to protest.

Why?

That's a serious question.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Why?

That's a serious question.

Because there is a lot happening, esp with the NHS, which is extremely detrimental to this country, and is effectively saying "fuck you" to the general population. The way we are treated by the government and their paymasters is disgusting. They need to made aware that it's not acceptable. Most large changes in regard to civil rights, liberties and social justice have been made through civil disobedience.

[Yorkykopite]

On my own?

I'd just look like a madman....

Get others to join you.

[oldfordie]

I never judge strikers (in fact I support them all). I'm not sure what "the race to the bottom" is. I sign countless petitions. Circumstances prevent me from voting, however I generally don't vote - politicians aren't in charge, the media and large corporations are. There should be a lot more taking to the streets to protest.

EG,I was one of the first people attacked by the CSA. Torys brought it under the pretense of chasing absent fathers who wouldn't pay child support. as usual they lied. they went straight after the fathers already paying support, their names and addresses were already known as they had court binding agreements. all made amicably when divorces went through. i never missed a payment, clothed the kids, stayed with me every weekend, everything fine. I paid a decent amount on my wages but I still need money to live so the ex wife would receive so much off the government as a top up.
The Torys plan was to increase all the fathers payments and the extra money received by the ex wives would be reduced from her top up payments from the government, the wives were no better off financially. the truth was this was about reducing the cost from welfare payments not helping mothers.
I got the Letter from the CSA and went down to see a solicitor in Castle st armed with a list of expenses to see how I could bring my disposable income down. lets say I was a bit colourful, how I need bus money to get to work and back every day, meals at work.etc even a paper to read.
As this was a new scheme the solicitor brought in a few colleagues, finished up with about 5 of us chatting away. no, you cant claim Bus fares or meals. no you cant claim for paper. the only thing I could claim for was accommodation and Poll tax. that is the honest truth, they saw the look on my face in shock,i could see they were genuinely upset. this is crazy I said, I need money to survive. i need money to get to work. they said theres not a solicitor in the land who would disagree with you. I walked out of the building in a trance and nearly walked into traffic in Castle st.
A few weeks past and I heard about a CSA meeting, fathers fighting against the CSA.
Always remember the first words of the speaker, Anyone who thinks this about getting out of paying for their children upkeep can leave now, this is about paying a fair amount and being able to live a life after divorce. they gave me some incredible advice, advice that probably saved me from years of poverty and despair, I wont go into details, they gave me the loopholes in the scheme to fight the Tory policy, CSA tried a bit of pressure but gave up within weeks and went after some other poor sods.
Many decent fathers committed suicide during that period, working all week and still not enough to pay the bills. there was talk of jailing any father who packed in his job.
I told 2 friends about this, one ignored the letters and said they wont get sod all off me. met him one day shell shocked, Ive worked a week of nights and they've left me with £40 to live on.The CSA had made a order to take the money out of his wage packet.  felt sad but if your not prepared to fight when you can then what do you expect.

[classycarra]

Because there is a lot happening, esp with the NHS, which is extremely detrimental to this country, and is effectively saying "fuck you" to the general population. The way we are treated by the government and their paymasters is disgusting. They need to made aware that it's not acceptable. Most large changes in regard to civil rights, liberties and social justice have been made through civil disobedience.

you can lobby your MP, write letters to government ministers and departments, make freedom of information requests to the department of health/NHS england/local NHS trusts

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

you can lobby your MP, write letters to government ministers and departments, make freedom of information requests to the department of health/NHS england/local NHS trusts

and....

[classycarra]

and....

and what?

you just made a post talking about wanting to challenge power bases in this country. for whatever reason you aren't able to vote, so i just mentioned a few things you are able to do as someone with a UK address. just some options for effective individual protest, without having to feel a lone madman

[oldfordie]

I never judge strikers (in fact I support them all). I'm not sure what "the race to the bottom" is. I sign countless petitions. Circumstances prevent me from voting, however I generally don't vote - politicians aren't in charge, the media and large corporations are. There should be a lot more taking to the streets to protest.

The race to the bottom is shouting disapproval when somebody has managed to win improvements to their lives from their employer or the government.
EG, those bloody pensioners dont deserve those bus passes, take them away and give more to students. it's music to the ears of bad employers and Tory governments. it makes their jobs so much easier.
Attitudes today really have to change, this has helped to bring down all our standards of living.
The attitude should be that's brilliant can I have it as well not I haven't got it so they shouldn't have it either.
None of us can do much as individuals and all you can do is expose the lies and hope others start taking notice. if everyone voiced disapproval to MPs then they would sit up and listen.
It doesn't really help when people believe this is wrong and just accept it, they certainly wont accept the consequences so lightly.

[Libertine]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/pmqs-showed-brexit-killing-labour/

"They've tried claiming to be the party of the 100% - while sounding like the party of the 0%"

Ouch.

[Red-Soldier]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/pmqs-showed-brexit-killing-labour/

"They've tried claiming to be the party of the 100% - while sounding like the party of the 0%"

Ouch.

It might be the Torygraph, but it hits the nail right on the head!!!!

[CornerFlag]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15000158.BBC_Trust_to_review_own_decision_upholding_complaint_about_Corbyn__shoot_to_kill__report/?ref=fbshr

Just to follow up on this, a report by Kuenssberg on Corbyn has been found by the BBC Trust to break impartiality and accuracy standards.  I did find it weird that it's in the BBC's "Entertainments & Arts section though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38666914

Laura Kuenssberg report on Jeremy Corbyn inaccurate, says BBC Trust

The BBC broke accuracy and impartiality rules in a News at Six report about Jeremy Corbyn's view on shoot-to-kill, the BBC's governing body has said.

The item, by BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg, was shown three days after the Paris attacks in November 2015.

A viewer complained that the report misrepresented the Labour leader's position on the use of lethal force in the event of such an attack in the UK.

BBC News director James Harding said he disagreed with the BBC Trust's ruling.

In the News at Six report, Kuenssberg said she had asked Mr Corbyn "if he were the resident here at Number 10 whether or not he would be happy for British officers to pull the trigger in the event of a Paris-style attack".

He was seen to reply: "I am not happy with a shoot to kill policy in general. I think that is quite dangerous and I think can often be counter-productive."

The actual question Kuenssberg had asked during the interview was: "If you were prime minister, would you be happy to order people - police or military - to shoot to kill on Britain's streets?"

The previous question in the interview, in a section that was not used on the News At Six, he had been asked specifically about his response to a Paris-style attack if he was prime minister and whether he would "order security services onto the street to stop people being killed".

In answer to that question, Mr Corbyn had replied: "Of course you'd bring people onto the streets to prevent and ensure there is safety within our society."

The BBC Trust said the BBC "was wrong in this case to present an answer Mr Corbyn had given to a question about 'shoot to kill' as though it were his answer to a question he had not in fact been asked".

The Trust said the Paris attacks, and how Britain might respond in a similar situation, were "major matters of considerable importance".

It also said: "The breach of due accuracy on such a highly contentious political issue meant that the output had not achieved due impartiality."

But the Trust found no evidence that there was a deliberate attempt to mislead audiences and noted that the full interview had been published on the BBC website.

The complaint did not come from Mr Corbyn or anyone acting on his behalf.

'Outstanding journalist'

James Harding, director of BBC News said: "While we respect the Trust and the people who work there, we disagree with this finding.

"Laura is an outstanding journalist and political editor with the utmost integrity and professionalism. BBC News reported on the leader of the opposition in the same way it would any other politician.

"It is striking that the Trust itself said there was 'no evidence of bias'. Indeed, it also said the news report was 'compiled in good faith'.

"The process is now concluded and BBC News formally notes the Trust's finding."

The BBC said the complaint had been looked at on four other occasions and each time had been rejected.

[hide5seek]

I got involved in these Labour threads for exactly that reason. My son has been shat on from a massive height because he suffers from a psychiatric condition that doesn't count with the bastards at ATOS. He hasn't been able to work for 15 years but he's judged fit for work and denied all benefits. I'm lucky enough to be able to support him otherwise he'd be on the streets.

I will continue to point out why Corbyn needs to go and why he needs to go because he's the first obstacle that's preventing what we all want (I hope) - a Labour govrnment. Once he's no longer leader the Party can perhaps start to address the very real problems that face the Labour party. There's nothing that you or I can do as individuals to get rid of the Tories - we need a competent leader and shadow cabinet to take the fight forward.

If that's 'shit-throwing' I make no apologies. There are far more important things than Jeremy Corbyn. he's had a go and failed.

Its sad about your sons illness and good that you can stand up for hm. THeres so many poor fuckers that are on their own, ill or there family can't help them financially or have the strength to help in other ways.
This is why we need shot of the Tory filth and as you say Alan we need rid of pathetic Corbyn first.
I wish you, your son, and family strength for all your future battles.

[AaronSingh25]

Utterly useless.

We effectively have no opposition in this country.

[oldfordie]

This is more like it. shame them with facts.
Very powerful Labour party political broadcast on tv tonight.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08bhz2z/party-political-broadcasts-labour-party-18012017

[Alan_X]

Sorry but that was broadcast was shit on so many levels.

[killer-heels]

This is more like it. shame them with facts.
Very powerful Labour party political broadcast on tv tonight.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08bhz2z/party-political-broadcasts-labour-party-18012017

I dont think mentioning the 350m is wise now.

[oldfordie]

Sorry but that was broadcast was shit on so many levels.

Why, thought they made the points well in short time space.

[oldfordie]

I dont think mentioning the 350m is wise now.

It is when you consider the Torys next step lost EU funding promised to all regions, are they going to keep their promises on funding and neglect the NHS

[killer-heels]

It is when you consider the Torys next step lost EU funding promised to all regions, are they going to keep their promises on funding and neglect the NHS

It wasnt a Tory promise and unless you are modelling your party as a Remain party then you just put the Leaver's back up as its seen as a attack on them. Caning the Tories on the NHS is wise, but the 350m is fully linked to the EU campaign now.

[oldfordie]

It wasnt a Tory promise and unless you are modelling your party as a Remain party then you just put the Leaver's back up as its seen as a attack on them. Caning the Tories on the NHS is wise, but the 350m is fully linked to the EU campaign now.

I think voters will look at it differently, they voted leave to get the NHS £350 mill.the Torys cant honour the government funding promise and ignore the £350 mill promise as that was also not a Tory promise but a leave promise.

[Alan_X]

It is when you consider the Torys next step lost EU funding promised to all regions, are they going to keep their promises on funding and neglect the NHS

The £350 million wasn't a Tory promise it was a leave campaign slogan and May was on the Remain side with Cameron and Osborne. And it's telling more than half the population they are thick for being taken in. Add in Corbyn's lukewarm attitude to Brexit and it just highlights what a shambles Labour was during Brexit.

The counter will be that while not putting all the £350 million towards the NHS there will still be savings that could go towards it. That's what people voted for. It then becomes an argument about Brexit promises rather than the NHS.

Utter shite. The actress was god awful too. Who was she meant to appeal too? And then there was the whole 'the NHS is dead already' aesthetic. Far too much Labour campaigning is about how shit everything is. And finally - what was the audience for that? It was made by people in a bubble. That will appeal to anyone who is probably going to vote Labour already. For others it's a reminder to check their BUPA policy. 

It's a dangerous game saying the NHS is in crisis. It plays into the hands of the privatisers who explain that changing demographics make the seventy-Year-old NHS out of date and new thinking is needed.

[Alan_X]

It wasnt a Tory promise and unless you are modelling your party as a Remain party then you just put the Leaver's back up as its seen as a attack on them. Caning the Tories on the NHS is wise, but the 350m is fully linked to the EU campaign now.

Spot on. If I was May I'd remind Corbyn that Tory government policy was Remain and he was the half-arsed 7.5 out of 10 muppet that helped scupper the Remain campaign.

[oldfordie]

The £350 million wasn't a Tory promise it was a leave campaign slogan and May was on the Remain side with Cameron and Osborne. And it's telling more than half the population they are thick for being taken in. Add in Corbyn's lukewarm attitude to Brexit and it just highlights what a shambles Labour was during Brexit.

The counter will be that while not putting all the £350 million towards the NHS there will still be savings that could go towards it. That's what people voted for. It then becomes an argument about Brexit promises rather than the NHS.

Utter shite. The actress was god awful too. Who was she meant to appeal too? And then there was the whole 'the NHS is dead already' aesthetic. Far too much Labour campaigning is about how shit everything is. And finally - what was the audience for that? It was made by people in a bubble. That will appeal to anyone who is probably going to vote Labour already. For others it's a reminder to check their BUPA policy. 

It's a dangerous game saying the NHS is in crisis. It plays into the hands of the privatisers who explain that changing demographics make the seventy-Year-old NHS out of date and new thinking is needed.

Still think she got the points over well. so we honour the lost EU funding to regions leave promise and ignore the NHS leave promise, money for Cornwall and no money for the NHS. any pressure or embarrassment on the Torys over the NHS has to be a good thing.
She gave one of the main reasons why the NHS is collapsing, funding to other services slashed which has impacted the hospitals.
EDIT, I agree with your point over the underfunding for the NHS and how that will be viewed,I made the same point myself early last week.

[ShakaHislop]

I see nothing wrong with mentioning the £350m promise. As for May being a Remainer (although you'd have done well to see her campaign), she has given prominent positions in her Government to high-profile Leavers. She has kept an association with the Leavers/Leave campaign by choice.

The party broadcast as a whole wasn't terrible. I do think it would have been improved by more detail on how they'd improve the state of the NHS i.e. putting a figure on the investment; how that would be paid for.

[Alan_X]

Still think she got the points over well. so we honour the lost EU funding to regions leave promise and ignore the NHS leave promise, money for Cornwall and no money for the NHS. any pressure or embarrassment on the Torys over the NHS has to be a good thing.
She gave one of the main reasons why the NHS is collapsing, funding to other services slashed which has impacted the hospitals.

Sorry mate, but if people were going to be swayed by facts we'd still be in the EU and Hillary Clinton would be choosing a new trouser suit for the inauguration ceremony.

Labour is not going to win an election on the NHS. Especially if they don't explain fundamental issues like dealing with and aging population. 70 years ago antibiotics were a new thing and most people died in their 60s. Now we have people living into their 80s and effective but expensive treatments, a lot of which are spent on the elderly.

If Labour wants to win it needs to get its head out of it's arse and come up with a convincing, positive narrative. Just saying the Tories are c*nts doesn't work, especially when a lot of the voters we need have voted Tory at some point.

[oldfordie]

Sorry mate, but if people were going to be swayed by facts we'd still be in the EU and Hillary Clinton would be choosing a new trouser suit for the inauguration ceremony.

Labour is not going to win an election on the NHS. Especially if they don't explain fundamental issues like dealing with and aging population. 70 years ago antibiotics were a new thing and most people died in their 60s. Now we have people living into their 80s and effective but expensive treatments, a lot of which are spent on the elderly.

If Labour wants to win it needs to get its head out of it's arse and come up with a convincing, positive narrative. Just saying the Tories are c*nts doesn't work, especially when a lot of the voters we need have voted Tory at some point.

I agree you cant just say there c,, I really do appreciate your point and again it's something ive agreed with all along, you wont win over voters reeling off a long list of how bad things are. all that does is make people think the NHS is outdated and needs reforming, it's not a bottomless pit.
You have to point out the Tory incompetence that made this come about while doing so, the NHS is a perfect example to highlight the Torys incompetence, they claim they spend more which nobody is disputing yet the service has collapsed over the last year.
One of the best points to highlight this is cuts to meals on wheels services and home visits. we save a few pounds a week stopping a pensioner getting one good healthy meal a day the result is we spend on average £10.5 thousand treating the person for malnutrition symptoms in hospital not long after.
There has been a massive rise in malnutrition admissions to hospital for vulnerable people.
The Torys save a few hundred a year in one hand and spend 10s of thousands of pounds treating them in hospital. no sympathy vote, it's gross incompetence by the Torys.

[filopastry]

Sorry mate, but if people were going to be swayed by facts we'd still be in the EU and Hillary Clinton would be choosing a new trouser suit for the inauguration ceremony.

Labour is not going to win an election on the NHS. Especially if they don't explain fundamental issues like dealing with and aging population. 70 years ago antibiotics were a new thing and most people died in their 60s. Now we have people living into their 80s and effective but expensive treatments, a lot of which are spent on the elderly.

If Labour wants to win it needs to get its head out of it's arse and come up with a convincing, positive narrative. Just saying the Tories are c*nts doesn't work, especially when a lot of the voters we need have voted Tory at some point.

Agreed on this one, the NHS is becoming Labour's safe space at present, the one thing it wants to talk about if only because its the one thing they aren't polling disastrously on at the moment, but its not enough on its own, its not even close to being enough on its own, and as bad as things are on the NHS its not going to become the No. 1 issue driving voting intent for enough people to make a difference.

Unless Labour can make massive progress with presenting some sort of coherent policy on Brexit, with being trusted on the economy, with winning arguments and having answers on immigration, with being trusted on national security and with being trusted on leadership, it is basically an irrelevance.

Mind you I can hardly complain about Labour I was daft enough to donate money to them in the run-up to the Brexit vote to help with campaigning for Remain, I can't say that was the best cash I ever spent, may as well have saved it and just increased my bet on Leave winning!

I just find myself veering now between coming on here and wanting to rant about the situation and not giving a shit anymore because I think the whole political landscape is fucked for a few electoral cycles and Labour may well be fucked for good, either way it feels like shit

[SP]

With that PPB should it not have had a politician fronting it? Labour needs to be a credible government, but its senior team are very low profile. Surely they should have attempted to build someone's profile. If not Corbyn, then the Shadow Home Secretary or Health Secretary.

Ah, just remembered who the Shadow Home Secretary is.

[TepidT2O]

Westminster VI:
CON: 42% (+3)
LAB: 25% (-3)
UKIP: 12% (-1)
LDEM: 11% (-)
(YouGov / fieldwork post-Tuesday)

Blimey Charlie..

[Alan_X]

More polls:

Maximum earnings limit a ‘bad idea’, says British public

Whilst criticising the UK’s high levels of income disparity during an interview on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme yesterday morning, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said that he would like to see a maximum earnings limit.

The comment was immediately seized upon. Danny Blanchflower, a former economic adviser to the Labour leader, said the policy was “totally unworkable” and “totally idiotic”.

A Labour spokesman later claimed that Corbyn had “misspoke”, and the policy did not appear during his speech later in the day on controlling ratios of pay in British companies.

Put to the general public, YouGov found that a maximum wage cap (set at £1m a year in our question) was seen as a good idea by fewer than one in three people (31%). At 44%, the number of people who think the policy would be a bad idea has a 13 point lead, whilst a further one in four people can’t decide either way.

Unsurprisingly, the most staunchly opposed group are Conservative voters, 59% of whom think a cap is a bad idea, compared to 23% a good one. Also particularly strongly opposed are Londoners (50% vs 32%) and middle class people (50% vs 29%).