Topic: The Labour Party (*)

[oldfordie]

i don't think Labour know what their priorities on brexit are

Seems to be upsetting as few people as possible. they are infuriating millions trying to sit on the fence.
There no more than spectators, "we will make sure the Torys will get the best deal for this country." I thought they said being in the SM was vital so why aren't they livid right now.

[Dr. Beaker]

This is why Labour are fucked in my opinion. Their bedrock support, it turns out, consists of (largely) two groups who are diametrically opposed on some of the biggest issues. UKIP seems to have released a genie that doesn't want to go back in the bottle, and as Fordie implies, when you sit on the fence, both sides get sick of the sight of your arse.

[SP]

PMQ is massive today. It has to be Brexit, and Corbyn needs to convince.

[TepidT2O]

PMQ is massive today. It has to be Brexit, and Corbyn needs to convince.

I'm not sure how he can...

He can criticise the process of the speech not being done in parliament, but labours policy on it is such a mess that it's almost impossible to say anything productive...

Particularly when May's speech seems to have been so popular.

[SP]

I'm not sure how he can...

He can criticise the process of the speech not being done in parliament, but labours policy on it is such a mess that it's almost impossible to say anything productive...

Particularly when May's speech seems to have been so popular.

Was it popular? The reaction of the press has followed along tribal lines.

Labour need to be relevant on Brexit, thus far they simply have not been.

[killer-heels]

I'm not sure how he can...

He can criticise the process of the speech not being done in parliament, but labours policy on it is such a mess that it's almost impossible to say anything productive...

Particularly when May's speech seems to have been so popular.

They have threatened to make this country into a tax haven with no NHS and no public services. It couldnt be set up any better for Labour now.

[west_london_red]

This is why Labour are fucked in my opinion. Their bedrock support, it turns out, consists of (largely) two groups who are diametrically opposed on some of the biggest issues. UKIP seems to have released a genie that doesn't want to go back in the bottle, and as Fordie implies, when you sit on the fence, both sides get sick of the sight of your arse.

In the short to medium term your probably right, but I am hoping the one silver lining of what looks like an impending hard Brexit is that UKIP become totally irrelevant. A soft Brexit still gave them a reason to exist, if May does as she said yesterday there will be no point in UKIP.

[killer-heels]

In the short to medium term your probably right, but I am hoping the one silver lining of what looks like an impending hard Brexit is that UKIP become totally irrelevant. A soft Brexit still gave them a reason to exist, if May does as she said yesterday there will be no point in UKIP.

Thats not good. That means that those UKIP supporters basically just flock to the Tories, further increasing their majority. At least by having UKIP they split the vote.

[west_london_red]

Thats not good. That means that those UKIP supporters basically just flock to the Tories, further increasing their majority. At least by having UKIP they split the vote.

True, but if the Tories aren't so scared of UKIP they may not spend so much time trying to ape their hard right policies, and if immigration is no longer a political issue maybe people will start thinking more about the issues that really matter.

I dunno, I am trying to polish a very watery turd to be honest but there has to be some small good out all this mess somewhere.

[Millie]

PMQ is massive today. It has to be Brexit, and Corbyn needs to convince.

Don't hold your breath

[oldfordie]

PMQ is massive today. It has to be Brexit, and Corbyn needs to convince.

It is very Important, the Torys will no doubt claim this is the peoples Brexit. wouldn't be surprised if we hear that a lot over the next few years. no chance, the path we are taking now is all down to Tory cabinet decisions, if Corbyn concedes the point then the Torys have their get out of jail card when this all goes wrong.

[filopastry]

It is very Important, the Torys will no doubt claim this is the peoples Brexit. wouldn't be surprised if we hear that a lot over the next few years. no chance, the path we are taking now is all down to Tory cabinet decisions, if Corbyn concedes the point then the Torys have their get out of jail card when this all goes wrong.

I think Labour will obviously attack them over the threat to change the UK's economic model if negotiations don't go well, but it will be interesting to see if they go after anything else strongly.

[oldfordie]

I think Labour will obviously attack them over the threat to change the UK's economic model if negotiations don't go well, but it will be interesting to see if they go after anything else strongly.

I think we could all give a few points he could make, I doubt they will be made.
probably mention workers rights today. he will make sure the government fight for the best deal. obviously May will tell him she won't  Can see May telling the house how all MPs have to get behind this now and unite the country, stop all the remoaner+ Brexter insults. just words to keep the country off the Torys backs and allow them to impose the Tory Brexit.

[Red-Soldier]

PMQ is massive today. It has to be Brexit, and Corbyn needs to convince.

Lets see what Jezza can do 

[SP]

Compromised by his past comments. He tried, but May deflected throwing his past comments back to him. Did not really land any telling blows. It appeared he had pre-scripted his questions, rather than try to pin down the evasiveness in her answers. He challenged her lack of answer, then gave his pre-prepared question. To really wound he needs to challenge her response and press for an answer. For the football analogy, May is well prepared for the first ball in, but appears vulnerable to the second ball. Corbyn just had 6 freekicks, blasting into the wall each time. 

[mkingdon]

I have no clear idea what Labour or Corbyn think about Brexit, Hard brexit, FOM, the single market and pretty much anything else which is boiling over in politics today and I don't have my head in the sand.

How can we have come this far and still have no clarity on what Labour want, support, would do if they were doing Brexit. They are an onmi-shambles and the Tories are doing Ronaldo step overs and keepie uppies rather than avoiding two footed challenges from Labour.

[Alan_X]

It appears that the general public are as confused about Labour's goals on Brexit are as I am, with 42% not sure of what Labour's priorities on Brexit are.

More people think the Tories want to stay in Europe than they do Labour! Corbyn's commitment to the EU during the referendum campaign obviously struck home. 

[killer-heels]

I have no clear idea what Labour or Corbyn think about Brexit, Hard brexit, FOM, the single market and pretty much anything else which is boiling over in politics today and I don't have my head in the sand.

How can we have come this far and still have no clarity on what Labour want, support, would do if they were doing Brexit. They are an onmi-shambles and the Tories are doing Ronaldo step overs and keepie uppies rather than avoiding two footed challenges from Labour.

Its the same in Scotland. Kezia Dugdales comments about May's speech show a party that doesnt know what it wants. There its been squeezed out due to being not pro union or not pro independence enough. Its the same here with Brexit.

[Alan_X]

They have threatened to make this country into a tax haven with no NHS and no public services. It couldnt be set up any better for Labour now.

It would be if they were committed to fighting to stay in the EU. As it is they're arguing about details or the stuff that they should win on anyway (the NHS) or lose on anyway (prosperity and the economy).

Corbyn has been talking about the Tories destroying the NHS anyway without much improvement in Labour's standing. And he's not going to win much support by arguing for higher corporation tax.

[Red-Soldier]

The Labour Party is a dead duck for the forseeable future.

[Dr. Beaker]

More people think the Tories want to stay in Europe than they do Labour! Corbyn's commitment to the EU during the referendum campaign obviously struck home. 

Doesn't it say 15 percent think Labour want to remain, and only 4 percent think the Tories want to remain?

[Alan_X]

Compromised by his past comments. He tried, but May deflected throwing his past comments back to him. Did not really land any telling blows. It appeared he had pre-scripted his questions, rather than try to pin down the evasiveness in her answers. He challenged her lack of answer, then gave his pre-prepared question. To really wound he needs to challenge her response and press for an answer. For the football analogy, May is well prepared for the first ball in, but appears vulnerable to the second ball. Corbyn just had 6 freekicks, blasting into the wall each time. 

Exactly. That's Corbyn all over. That ridiculous half-arsed performance on the Last Leg was the most obvious but his past record on Europe in general leaves him with no coherent narrative for what he wants as leader. He's a busted flush on the biggest issue facing the UK. At least if he'd stood for what he actually believed in (Leaving the EU) then he would have a position to argue from. But that would have meant stepping down as Leader and there were obviously more important issues for him and his merry band. Or he could have actually given a shit and we might not have been in this position.

Hopeless.

[Alan_X]

Doesn't it say 15 percent think Labour want to remain, and only 4 percent think the Tories want to remain?

Sorry - reading it in a phone. Even so, 15% against 4% is hardly a great result, assuming of course that the Labour Party is, or was, actually committed to the EU.

[classycarra]

Sorry - reading it in a phone. Even so, 15% against 4% is hardly a great result, assuming of course that the Labour Party is, or was, actually committed to the EU.

It's dismal. It was official Labour policy, and was campaigned on in the past 12 months. That's 1 in 7 people. Suppose the 42% could be people like me who doubt the leadership and his cronies were genuinely hoping to remain

[oldfordie]

Compromised by his past comments. He tried, but May deflected throwing his past comments back to him. Did not really land any telling blows. It appeared he had pre-scripted his questions, rather than try to pin down the evasiveness in her answers. He challenged her lack of answer, then gave his pre-prepared question. To really wound he needs to challenge her response and press for an answer. For the football analogy, May is well prepared for the first ball in, but appears vulnerable to the second ball. Corbyn just had 6 freekicks, blasting into the wall each time.

Yeah, He's been outmaneuvered, May leant over with her arrogant sideways sneer when Corbyn mentioned staying in the Single market as if daring Corbyn to walk into the trap. Are you daring to go against the wishes of the people, this Tory Brexit is now the wishes of the people Brexit.  I would of been delighted if Corbyn had thrown her words back in her face even at this late stage.

[Thush]

It appears that the general public are as confused about Labour's goals on Brexit are as I am, with 42% not sure of what Labour's priorities on Brexit are.

The thing about that chart that bewilders me is who are these 28% + 9% + 4% + 20% who think the government want anything else than a hard Brexit?

[Dr. Beaker]

Sorry - reading it in a phone. Even so, 15% against 4% is hardly a great result, assuming of course that the Labour Party is, or was, actually committed to the EU.

For me, the most telling part of that chart is the 42% 'not sure'. But for the life of me, I can't figure out how Labour should play this - never mind Corbyn. Soft Brexit isn't even an option in my opinion, I don't think Europe will (or even can) allow it. If Labour goes full-on for Remain they will probably fall even lower in the polls (after a full-on 'anti-democratic Labour' deluge from the tabloids) in the short term at least and that would cause even more internal strife, if that is possible.
 
Europe's stance was, and probably still is 'Hard Brexit or no Brexit'. Maybe Labour's stance should be, 'Soft Brexit or no Brexit' - well that's the way it should be played, but coming out and saying it is probably political suicide.

[Yorkykopite]

It must be awful, turning up for work each day, knowing you cannot do your job and that the entire nation is able to watch you not being able to do your job. The poor bloke must be under immense stress.

[Alan_X]

By the way if anyone wants a laugh, read Paul Mason's Guardian piece in yesterday's G2. He's proposing some bollocks about specific limited NI numbers and stopping migrant workers by upping wages and improving job security for temporary seasonal work. He talks about closing down low-wage employers.

All well and good (apart from the bizarre NI number thing) except the picture with the story highlights the kind of work we're talking about - fruit and vegetable picking. It can't be mechanised (which would lose jobs anyway) and its low wage because there simply aren't the margins on produce to allow significantly higher wages without raising retail prices. His proposal is to shut down these companies - shutting down farms and fruit and veg growers in rural areas.

Idiot.

[oldfordie]

It must be awful, turning up for work each day, knowing you cannot do your job and that the entire nation is able to watch you not being able to do your job. The poor bloke must be under immense stress.

Well, he wanted to be Labours PR press spokesman,he has to deal with it.

[Dr. Beaker]

By the way if anyone wants a laugh, read Paul Mason's Guardian piece in yesterday's G2. He's proposing some bollocks about specific limited NI numbers and stopping migrant workers by upping wages and improving job security for temporary seasonal work. He talks about closing down low-wage employers.

All well and good (apart from the bizarre NI number thing) except the picture with the story highlights the kind of work we're talking about - fruit and vegetable picking. It can't be mechanised (which would lose jobs anyway) and its low wage because there simply aren't the margins on produce to allow significantly higher wages without raising retail prices. His proposal is to shut down these companies - shutting down farms and fruit and veg growers in rural areas.

Idiot.

I'm not sure about this, but I'm 'pretty' sure that there is a massive difference between what the farmers get paid for their produce and what the supermarkets, in particular, then sell it on for. Maybe it's the supermarket's massive profits that should take the hit.

[Circa1892]

By the way if anyone wants a laugh, read Paul Mason's Guardian piece in yesterday's G2. He's proposing some bollocks about specific limited NI numbers and stopping migrant workers by upping wages and improving job security for temporary seasonal work. He talks about closing down low-wage employers.

All well and good (apart from the bizarre NI number thing) except the picture with the story highlights the kind of work we're talking about - fruit and vegetable picking. It can't be mechanised (which would lose jobs anyway) and its low wage because there simply aren't the margins on produce to allow significantly higher wages without raising retail prices. His proposal is to shut down these companies - shutting down farms and fruit and veg growers in rural areas.

Idiot.

Paul Mason is the most removed from reality, idiotic commentator that gets a big platform on the left.

[Yorkykopite]

I'm not sure about this, but I'm 'pretty' sure that there is a massive difference between what the farmers get paid for their produce and what the supermarkets, in particular, then sell it on for. Maybe it's the supermarket's massive profits that should take the hit.

Food is very cheap compared to how much it cost 20 years ago. It's we, the consumers, who are effectively demanding casual labour in the fields. Brexit might persuade the masses to pay more for their food and thereby attract native workers back into the fields on union wages. But somehow I doubt it.
 

[Alan_X]

I'm not sure about this, but I'm 'pretty' sure that there is a massive difference between what the farmers get paid for their produce and what the supermarkets, in particular, then sell it on for. Maybe it's the supermarket's massive profits that should take the hit.

You need to read the whole thing mate, those were just a couple of points that struck me. The point is that fruit picking is, and always has been, and always will be seasonal, low-paid work. The 'problem' of seasonal agriculture workers is actually not a problem. The numbers are relatively low and as is widely reported, British workers don't want, and often can't do the work that seasonal immigrant workers do.

It's the idea that his strategy is to shut down employers in rural areas.

[Commie Bobbie]

Jesus fucking Christ.

Enough with the shit throwing.

From Everyone.

We have a government which is threatening to make Thatchers bunch of shitstains look relatively sane.

So we (and this is Labour I'm talking about) have a leader who seems to think that the electorate will immediately elect an hard left government after a hard right government.

IT'S. NOT. GOING. TO. FUCKING. HAPPEN.

What ALL of us. Alan, Geoff, Travis, York, Me, Clever - ALL OF US - need to concentrate on is bringing this shitspill of a government to book for the shitty, austerity-on-ket, policies that are KILLING people day in, day out.

I'm off to the doctors later to probably be told that all they can do for my depression and mental illness is to bung me more meds, whilst I have to look for my own treatment to deal with my illness.

Mental health is being pissed on by this c*nt of a government and yet all we're concerned about in this thread is whether Jess Phillips has committed treason for slating Seamus Cunting Milne or Corbyn has called Blair a goose-stepping Nazi.

It's time for everyone to step up to the fucking plate. Some of us can't wait another 15 years for a Labour government.

Rant over.

[Dr. Beaker]

Food is very cheap compared to how much it cost 20 years ago. It's we, the consumers, who are effectively demanding casual labour in the fields. Brexit might persuade the masses to pay more for their food and thereby attract native workers back into the fields on union wages. But somehow I doubt it.
 

You haven't (yet) persuaded me to change my mind regarding supermarket pricing. But it does resonate with me regarding what is going to happen in the USA when they bring all those jobs back home - prices are going to rocket.

[Cliff Bastin]

Jesus fucking Christ.

Enough with the shit throwing.

From Everyone.

We have a government which is threatening to make Thatchers bunch of shitstains look relatively sane.

So we (and this is Labour I'm talking about) have a leader who seems to think that the electorate will immediately elect an hard left government after a hard right government.

IT'S. NOT. GOING. TO. FUCKING. HAPPEN.

What ALL of us. Alan, Geoff, Travis, York, Me, Clever - ALL OF US - need to concentrate on is bringing this shitspill of a government to book for the shitty, austerity-on-ket, policies that are KILLING people day in, day out.

I'm off to the doctors later to probably be told that all they can do for my depression and mental illness is to bung me more meds, whilst I have to look for my own treatment to deal with my illness.

Mental health is being pissed on by this c*nt of a government and yet all we're concerned about in this thread is whether Jess Phillips has committed treason for slating Seamus Cunting Milne or Corbyn has called Blair a goose-stepping Nazi.

It's time for everyone to step up to the fucking plate. Some of us can't wait another 15 years for a Labour government.

Rant over.

Look after yourself. These politicians are not worth it. Mental health hasn't got a price, good luck.

[Dr. Beaker]

It's the idea that his strategy is to shut down employers in rural areas.

At the rate that the supermarkets are already shutting down employers in rural areas there'll be nothing left for him to do.

[TepidT2O]

At the rate that the supermarkets are already shutting down employers in rural areas there'll be nothing left for him to do.

Not sure that's correct.

Rural employers seem to be becoming larger rather than smaller suppliers...  not quite the same..

[Alan_X]

Jesus fucking Christ.

Enough with the shit throwing.

From Everyone.

We have a government which is threatening to make Thatchers bunch of shitstains look relatively sane.

So we (and this is Labour I'm talking about) have a leader who seems to think that the electorate will immediately elect an hard left government after a hard right government.

IT'S. NOT. GOING. TO. FUCKING. HAPPEN.

What ALL of us. Alan, Geoff, Travis, York, Me, Clever - ALL OF US - need to concentrate on is bringing this shitspill of a government to book for the shitty, austerity-on-ket, policies that are KILLING people day in, day out.

I'm off to the doctors later to probably be told that all they can do for my depression and mental illness is to bung me more meds, whilst I have to look for my own treatment to deal with my illness.

Mental health is being pissed on by this c*nt of a government and yet all we're concerned about in this thread is whether Jess Phillips has committed treason for slating Seamus Cunting Milne or Corbyn has called Blair a goose-stepping Nazi.

It's time for everyone to step up to the fucking plate. Some of us can't wait another 15 years for a Labour government.

Rant over.

I got involved in these Labour threads for exactly that reason. My son has been shat on from a massive height because he suffers from a psychiatric condition that doesn't count with the bastards at ATOS. He hasn't been able to work for 15 years but he's judged fit for work and denied all benefits. I'm lucky enough to be able to support him otherwise he'd be on the streets.

I will continue to point out why Corbyn needs to go and why he needs to go because he's the first obstacle that's preventing what we all want (I hope) - a Labour govrnment. Once he's no longer leader the Party can perhaps start to address the very real problems that face the Labour party. There's nothing that you or I can do as individuals to get rid of the Tories - we need a competent leader and shadow cabinet to take the fight forward.

If that's 'shit-throwing' I make no apologies. There are far more important things than Jeremy Corbyn. he's had a go and failed.