Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Alan_X]

Nope. Rats running from a sinking ship. They have had months and months to call out their government and keep no deal off the table.

There was a 27 vote majority last night. Even if those 21 voted with their party, they would have lost.

Those MP's are covering their arse for when they go back to their constituencies for a GE.

That's not correct. It was 328 to 301. If they'd voted with Johnson it would have been 322 for Boris (301+21) and 307 for the Bill (328-21). Boris would have won by 15 votes.

[reddebs]

I agree, the referendum was a farce. But the first thing you need to to do, is to convince the wider public of that. And convince leave voters especially, that a second referendum should be run on that basis for the greater good, instead of simply on the basis that remain lost. Which is why they will think it's being run, unless you convince them otherwise first. Not easy.

They'll never be convinced.  Their vote was based on feeling forgotten, left behind and not listened to so the last 3yrs have only hardened that stand.

They don't want a deal either as that wasn't on the ballot sheet so they didn't vote for a deal.  It was leave or remain.

Then there's those who voted remain but are now behind leaving as that's what the country voted for.   They will now change their vote if we get another referendum to make sure the original vote is carried out.

The whole thing is just one fucked up mess.  Nobody benefits.

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[BarryCrocker]

How much has he spent?

[Snail]

Leaving the EU provides an opportunity to set world leading environmental standards, and we’re giving @DefraGovUK £432m of funding to do so.

A drop in the ocean compared to the EU subsidies farmers are going to lose.

[kennedy81]

Out of austerity and into the fire.

[24/7]

He's redefining spectacularly inept. What a buffoon.

[Zeb]

How much has he spent?

About 14bn in day to day spending for next year.

[Enders]

There’s a link to the racism question here

https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1169218435554918400?s=21

The response was basically (shouting) that:

  'It's OK, I've got Muslim ancestors' (so why should I have to apologise?)

  'We have the most diverse cabinet' (I've surrounded myself with similarly incompetent twats with no moral fibre in order to look more 'appealing' just because they're 'darkies')

  'rampant anti-semitism in the Labour party!' (yawn)

A total embarrassment to the house, but some people will still tell you 'he came out on top there didn't he?' just because he shouted and pointed a bit when he was 'answering'

[Snail]

John McDonnell there

He says Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is shouting at him now. He tells Johnson that the last time Johnson shouted at someone, they had to call the police, he said.

[losCHUNK]

But in most massive social changes, the will of the people has been ignored in the past. If they don't have the stomach for cancelling brexit, order a second referendum with the withdrawal terms as an option. We've had years of debate before massive change, yet we're willing to crash out of the EU after a manipulated referendum on one of the most nuanced questions a public has ever faced.

Aye, I get what you're saying and it is an entirely fair point.   Point I'm making is those changes take time to convince MPs / the public or anyone else.   Public opinion needs to at least soften even if there's still a majority that oppose it before you can make those changes.   Like, with homosexuality, I would imagine a big advocate against that was the Catholic church and its followers who were subject to doctrine (this is an assumption).  This is why I used my respected friend as an example, as even remain moderates started supporting Brexit.  Brexit imo was misunderstood and we're only understanding what it actually means after the ref, like the general public becoming aware that Homosexuality isn't a sin.  We were subject to rhetorical nonsense and it takes time to reverse that 'doctrine'.

It's easy to see how, too, with the poverty going around and it being blamed on immigrants and the EU.

I agree about calling a 2nd ref, this is my 1st choice but I'm under no illusion it'll be a walk in the park, I havn't got much faith that 'we' would win.   In this scenario would you accept the result?, as that vote shouldn't be considered as it would be damaging for the country regardless and MPs should do what's best for the country and not follow the 'will of the people', this is even if you just had the WA and remain on the ballot paper.

As for crashing out without a deal, that's why MPs are currently trying to block it.  I would really like to know how the country feels about this and if they still think 'no deal' could be beneficial then I am inclined to think they're an idiot, but that doesn't change the fact that they still get to vote and hold our MPs to account.

Ahh democracy.

[24/7]

John McDonnell there

ouch......

Also, "Some of my best relatives are towel-heads..." basically. What a cock.

[Snail]

Labour have nailed this today.

[AndyMuller]

McDonnell has tore apart Javid’s spending review here.

[Zeb]

Labour have nailed this today.

They have.

[scouseman]

serious question but is there anyway that Johnson can be held in contempt of the office that he holds. That was the most shocking showing of a PM I have ever seen.  It was an utter shambles. I am really lost for words and am ashamed that we have stooped to a new low by having him as PM. 

[Enders]

'This isn't a government, it's a racket'

Go on John, stick that boot right in there!

[Zeb]

Sturgeon's comments (that SNP may support Tories to get an election) have some background. Corbyn invited all the opposition leaders for discussions this morning. Starmer at the same time was telling the PLP "that Labour will NOT vote for an election until the bill has been passed AND implemented, which means AFTER October 19th  - which obviously means no chance election until much later on." (via Laura Kuenssberg, her emphasis)

[filopastry]

Sturgeon's comments (that SNP may support Tories to get an election) have some background. Corbyn invited all the opposition leaders for discussions this morning. Starmer at the same time was telling the PLP "that Labour will NOT vote for an election until the bill has been passed AND implemented, which means AFTER October 19th  - which obviously means no chance election until much later on." (via Laura Kuenssberg, her emphasis)

I actually agree with Sturgeon on this one, do what you can to lock the govt in to a binding commitment to a GE date and get on with it.

Prorogation probably helps a bit in justifying holding off though, given Parliament won't be sitting for most of the time, but I don't think seemingly running scared of an election is a great look for the opposition when we know the Tories want to define the next election as People v Parliament. You can guarantee the press will be hammering that home every single day until a GE is called.

[TheShanklyGates]

I actually agree with Sturgeon on this one, do what you can to lock the govt in to a binding commitment to a GE date and get on with it.

Prorogation probably helps a bit in justifying holding off though, given Parliament won't be sitting for most of the time, but I don't think seemingly running scared of an election is a great look for the opposition when we know the Tories want to define the next election as People v Parliament. You can guarantee the press will be hammering that home every single day until a GE is called.

It makes strategic sense though surely to not have an election until after Johnson has missed his 'do or die' deadline? I think Labour have calculated that the Tories will lose a lot of vote share to the Brexit party if we're still in the EU after the 31st of October.

[Zeb]

I actually agree with Sturgeon on this one, do what you can to lock the govt in to a binding commitment to a GE date and get on with it.

Prorogation probably helps a bit in justifying holding off though, given Parliament won't be sitting for most of the time, but I don't think seemingly running scared of an election is a great look for the opposition when we know the Tories want to define the next election as People v Parliament. You can guarantee the press will be hammering that home every single day until a GE is called.

Looks like Lib Dems are already rehearsing the argument against in the difficulty in guaranteeing an election will be held before 31st October and Parliament legislating to set a date. There's also a real issue with a (potential) new government coming in so late that the choice would effectively be 'no deal' or revocation. Agree on presentation being difficult, which I thought would lead Labour in the SNP direction.

[redmark]

I actually agree with Sturgeon on this one, do what you can to lock the govt in to a binding commitment to a GE date and get on with it.

Prorogation probably helps a bit in justifying holding off though, given Parliament won't be sitting for most of the time, but I don't think seemingly running scared of an election is a great look for the opposition when we know the Tories want to define the next election as People v Parliament. You can guarantee the press will be hammering that home every single day until a GE is called.

I think 'running scared' is insignificant compared to the damage done to 'do or die', 'no ifs or buts', to exposing the sham of 'negotiations' for 17th October and to the cosying up to the Brexit party. Tactically, the delay is sound. Sturgeon's reasons for an early election are weak.

[gamble]

This is such a bad government, I mean I knew BJ would be bad but I am actually cringing at how bad they are. They are trying to bully and bluff their way through scrutiny. They are full of frauds and will hang themselves the way this is going. I just hope the opposition parties let this happen. They don’t need to do anything

[filopastry]

I think 'running scared' is insignificant compared to the damage done to 'do or die', 'no ifs or buts', to exposing the sham of 'negotiations' for 17th October and to the cosying up to the Brexit party. Tactically, the delay is sound. Sturgeon's reasons for an early election are weak.

The "running scared" bit matters though as it helps define the next election, if Johnson wins the next election, literally none of this matters. We can request however long an extension we like but Johnson can basically leave without a deal as soon as he comes into office if he wants to.

It won't just be runing scared in any case, it will be "they are ignoring the will of the people and they are terrified of giving the people a voice again".

The only thing I will say is that prorogation helps, given Parliament is doing fuck all for most of this time.

[kennedy81]

Amazing that he can fob off the question of how a no-deal brexit impacts on spending, with the usual 'help Boris get his deal' bollox.
It's beyond wreckless.

[gazzalfc]

Massive time for Labour. They have to ride this wave of momentum (no pun intended ) into a GE. If it was behind remain then it could be the start of something huge

[filopastry]

Amazing that he can fob off the question of how a no-deal brexit impacts on spending, with the usual 'help Boris get his deal' bollox.
It's beyond wreckless.

The true believers don't care so he can get away with it.

[Lusty]

Massive time for Labour. They have to ride this wave of momentum (no pun intended ) into a GE. If it was behind remain then it could be the start of something huge

They should drop a VONC on November 1st.

I think it's important that Boris is the PM on the 31st October and we don't leave.  It will kill him.  It would also be nice if they were the ones who initiated the GE through a VONC rather than Boris do it through the FTPA.  Maximum impact.

[kennedy81]

Haha wow, don't worry South Wales, our shiny new post Brexit unicorn economy will cover that!

Sorted.

[Nobby Reserve]

It makes strategic sense though surely to not have an election until after Johnson has missed his 'do or die' deadline? I think Labour have calculated that the Tories will lose a lot of vote share to the Brexit party if we're still in the EU after the 31st of October.

Spot on. Make Bozo have to ask the EU for an extension.

Then watch Frog-face strop, and a few %'age points of Tory support syphon off to the B[N]P.

Anyone who wants to remain must aim to keep the leave vote as split as possible.

[Zimagic]

I just dont see how an election benefits anyone unless there's a shift away from the mainstream parties.

Let's face it between them they've totally fucked the country over during the last 2 decades.

This, all day this!!

How the hell hasn't some young bright spark gotten a group together, made some semblance of a plan and said, "Look we're not them [pointing at Labour/Tories]" and cleared up?

Given all the bloody flip-flopping, if there's any sort of realism & cohesive vision involved, they could steal a majority of MPs and break the old guard for good.

[filopastry]

Spot on. Make Bozo have to ask the EU for an extension.

Then watch Frog-face strop, and a few %'age points of Tory support syphon off to the B[N]P.

Anyone who wants to remain must aim to keep the leave vote as split as possible.

I wouldn't guarantee he would quietly go along with requesting an extension even if Parliament voted for it, all that shit plays well with the fucking idiots who support him. Anything to give him a chance ot burnish his true believer no deal credentials

[gazzalfc]

Sinn Fein MP schooling Sky news on not taking salary from Westminster

https://twitter.com/DawnHFoster/status/1169192794289856512?s=19

[redmark]

I wouldn't guarantee he would quietly go along with requesting an extension even if Parliament voted for it, all that shit plays well with the fucking idiots who support him. Anything to give him a chance ot burnish his true believer no deal credentials

So you don't trust him to request an extension if ordered to by Parliament, but you do trust him to stick to an election date of 15th October and not shift it to 1st November?

[redmark]

Nick Watt suggesting Labour will abstain on the government FTPA election call - unless they can amend to a fixed date which the PM cannot alter.

October 31st would be funny .

[FlashingBlade]

Now that's interesting!!!... Labour have modified position saying no vote for a GE till after No Deal Bill passed..that means November election....which constrains the Tories into agreeing a deal before 31st...or ..apply for extension thus leaving Boris against his promise ..is it possible that for once Labour have boxed clever?

[filopastry]

So you don't trust him to request an extension if ordered to by Parliament, but you do trust him to stick to an election date of 15th October and not shift it to 1st November?

I certainly don't trust him so would only view that as locked in if locked in by legislation (I actually think he will be happy enough to go along with committing to an election date after an appropriate amount of bitching about it) the extension is the one I can eally see him making a fuss over at least for the cameras.

Question to those who are more knowledgable on here, can Johnson simply resign as PM while remaining leader of the Tory Party, if that happened would someone become PM by default?

[24/7]

Now that's interesting!!!... Labour have modified position saying no vote for a GE till after No Deal Bill passed..that means November election....which constrains the Tories into agreeing a deal before 31st...or ..apply for extension thus leaving Boris against his promise ..is it possible that for once Labour have boxed clever?

Blimey - who advised them on that tactic?! It's straight out of the Cummings Book Of Cuntishness

[reddebs]

This, all day this!!

How the hell hasn't some young bright spark gotten a group together, made some semblance of a plan and said, "Look we're not them [pointing at Labour/Tories]" and cleared up?

Given all the bloody flip-flopping, if there's any sort of realism & cohesive vision involved, they could steal a majority of MPs and break the old guard for good.

I dont get it either mate.

The opening was there for somebody to step in and give the disillusioned hope of a brighter future for us all.

I've been waiting for someone like the Greens to come to the fore but I've not heard a peep. 

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[Rush 82]

Bercow

That's a smack down if ever I heard one

[oldfordie]

Ladbrokes offering 6/4 for Frottage to become a MP this year. looks a stand out bet, can't bring myself to back it, hate the bas,,, hope he looses his deposit but he will probably win this time around.