Topic: General political discussion Part II

[TepidT2O]

Young conservatives were always renowned for this sort of problem

[Dr. Beaker]

I thought their morals had improved, a dead pig can't say no after all. I suppose it's just not so much fun exerting your power and authority over decaying dumb animals - and I think anyone who witnessed their conference would agree.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Yet.

And let’s be clear here, two of them have been jewish and have been pilloried for calling out racism

These aren’t idiots, they’re racists.  Let’s use the right term here.

seeing as they had their anti semitism discussion on the sabbath at conference it’s pretty obvious this is deliberate, and other instances of doing things on the sabbath as well

[BoRed]

seeing as they had their anti semitism discussion on the sabbath at conference it’s pretty obvious this is deliberate, and other instances of doing things on the sabbath as well

The Premier League has a lot to answer for, too, regularly forcing Spurs to play on the sabbath.

I thought we lived in a secular country.

[TepidT2O]

The Premier League has a lot to answer for, too, regularly forcing Spurs to play on the sabbath.

I thought we lived in a secular country.

We don’t live in a secular country.

France is secular, we aren’t.

[BoRed]

We don’t live in a secular country.

France is secular, we aren’t.

You know what I meant. We do all kinds of things every Sunday, including Easter itself, but having a conference on a Saturday is somehow antisemitic?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

We don’t live in a secular country.

France is secular, we aren’t.

[TepidT2O]

[Alan_X]

The Premier League has a lot to answer for, too, regularly forcing Spurs to play on the sabbath.

I thought we lived in a secular country.

Spurs have had Jewish supporters for decades as it was an easy ground to reach from the east end. Football has always been played on a Saturday so devout Jews who observe the Sabbath are unlikely to be supporters now. No idea what the Premier League has to do with anything.

Holding an anti-semitism conference on the Sabbath is slightly different.

[Alan_X]

You know what I meant. We do all kinds of things every Sunday, including Easter itself, but having a conference on a Saturday is somehow antisemitic?

Anti-semitism discussion?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Spurs have had Jewish supporters for decades as it was an easy ground to reach from the east end. Football has always been played on a Saturday so devout Jews who observe the Sabbath are unlikely to be supporters now. No idea what the Premier League has to do with anything.

yup, mate of mine is a Jewish United fan, actually delighted with them in the Europa league now!

Holding an anti-semitism conference on the Sabbath is slightly different.

indeed, but he seems fine with dying on this hill

[BoRed]

Spurs have had Jewish supporters for decades as it was an easy ground to reach from the east end. Football has always been played on a Saturday so devout Jews who observe the Sabbath are unlikely to be supporters now. No idea what the Premier League has to do with anything.

Holding an anti-semitism conference on the Sabbath is slightly different.

Why? Is anti-semitism relevant only to devout Jews? I thought anti-semitism was racist because it concerned Jews as an ethnic group, and not a religion. Do we even know how many Jewish Labour MPs didn't attend the conference on the Saturday? Or how many members/delegates missed this discussion because it was sabbath?

We all know Labour has an issue with anti-semitism, but I honestly think you're devaluing the cause if you're claiming scheduling an anti-semitism discussion on a Saturday afternoon or a CLP meeting on a Tuesday evening are deliberately anti-semitic acts.

[Millie]

Why? Is anti-semitism relevant only to devout Jews? I thought anti-semitism was racist because it concerned Jews as an ethnic group, and not a religion. Do we even know how many Jewish Labour MPs didn't attend the conference on the Saturday? Or how many members/delegates missed this discussion because it was sabbath?

We all know Labour has an issue with anti-semitism, but I honestly think you're devaluing the cause if you're claiming scheduling an anti-semitism discussion on a Saturday afternoon or a CLP meeting on a Tuesday evening are deliberately anti-semitic acts.

It's not just any Tuesday evening is it?

[BoRed]

It's not just any Tuesday evening is it?

No, it isn't, as it transpired. Which is why I asked if anyone on here knew it was Yom Kippur next Wednesday before reading this story. Do you honestly think those CLP members knew? You could argue they should have known, but I think it's far more likely they had no idea.

[Banquo's Ghost]

No, it isn't, as it transpired. Which is why I asked if anyone on here knew it was Yom Kippur next Wednesday before reading this story. Do you honestly think those CLP members knew? You could argue they should have known, but I think it's far more likely they had no idea.

Perhaps the decent thing - had they not known - would be to apologise and reschedule. Kinder, gentler politics and all that.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Perhaps the decent thing - had they not known - would be to apologise and reschedule. Kinder, gentler politics and all that.

exactly, but it’s a hard left stitch up as per from that lot

[BoRed]

Perhaps the decent thing - had they not known - would be to apologise and reschedule. Kinder, gentler politics and all that.

Who is "they", though? I think this is being presented as the CLP branch wanting to deselect Louise Ellman, and then deliberately scheduling a meeting on the eve of Yom Kippur specifically for that purpose. In reality, it's just a regular meeting of the branch, like many across the country, scheduled long ago (typically, MPs don't attend these meetings). And then one (yes, one!) member proposed a motion of no confidence in Ellman (whether that one member knew the meeting was to take place on the eve of Yom Kippur, none of us can know). As per the rules, that motion had to be discussed and is now one of many items on the agenda. The motion (which would, according to the party rules, have no formal standing anyway) is expected to be rejected without even being taken to a vote.

In short, there is no "they", she won't be deselected, the whole thing is much ado about nothing. But when the motion is overwhelmingly rejected at the meeting on Tuesday night (just like other pathetic attempts to deselect Tom Watson and others recently have been nipped in the bud), it certainly won't make nationwide headlines.

[Trada]

Honestly, how many on here knew next Wednesday is Yom Kippur before reading that story? They probably simply scheduled a meeting for a Tuesday evening, like they would normally do. It's a bit of a fuck-up for sure, but to say it's "racially motivated targeting" is way over the top. She'd have been targetted just the same regardless of her ethnicity/religion/race, as long as she was critical of Corbyn.

Also, as redmark pointed out earlier, it now takes just a handful of idiots to trigger a reselection procedure, but not a single Labour MP has actually been deselected yet.

Mps like Diane Abbot faced a Trigger ballot that she won easy and a few other Left wing MPs have faced them.

Jess Philips faces hers on Monday and some dirty tricks have been used one Right Wing MP didnt send notice of the trigger ballot or where it will be held until just before the meeting when you are meant to send emails out with at least 24 hour notice.

People moaning about Hodge having to face a reselection election but it was triggered by Right wingers at her clps they are saying there are hardly any left wingers in her CLP 4 or 5. 

[oldfordie]

Mps like Diane Abbot faced a Trigger ballot that she won easy and a few other Left wing MPs have faced them.

Jess Philips faces hers on Monday and some dirty tricks have been used one Right Wing MP didnt send notice of the trigger ballot or where it will be held until just before the meeting when you are meant to send emails out with at least 24 hour notice.

People moaning about Hodge having to face a reselection election but it was triggered by Right wingers at her clps they are saying there are hardly any left wingers in her CLP 4 or 5.

Right wing. left wing. not proper socialists because they don't believe in this or that so they are not left wing. it's all boll.. anybody who believes in Labours core beliefs is a left winger, it's a matter of how far left they are.

[classycarra]

Mps like Diane Abbot faced a Trigger ballot that she won easy and a few other Left wing MPs have faced them.

Jess Philips faces hers on Monday and some dirty tricks have been used one Right Wing MP didnt send notice of the trigger ballot or where it will be held until just before the meeting when you are meant to send emails out with at least 24 hour notice.

People moaning about Hodge having to face a reselection election but it was triggered by Right wingers at her clps they are saying there are hardly any left wingers in her CLP 4 or 5. 

Ignoring the trite labels, there's literally zero evidence in support of any of the claims here.

[Trada]

Of course no one likes him anymore.

Jeremy in Newcastle today.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Z7bIRKt8kKs" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Z7bIRKt8kKs</a>

[filopastry]

Of course no one likes him anymore.

Jeremy in Newcastle today.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Z7bIRKt8kKs" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Z7bIRKt8kKs</a>

I don't think anyone has said nobody likes him anymore.

Corbyn's support is deep but narrow, much as it has been for most of his time in charge.

[BrandoLFC]

I don't think anyone has said nobody likes him anymore.

Corbyn's support is deep but narrow, much as it has been for most of his time in charge.

From what I've found in looking at recent polling Corbyn is underwater with the general UK populace by 20/65 or thereabouts.  I'm an American so maybe I should just stop caring but at the same time, and I'v asked it numerous times in the Brexit thread with no clear answer, how does Labor just not put forward a leader that people actually like and then crush the Tory's?  I honestly don't get it.  Is Corbyn not only the worst Labour leader but also the most selfish in maybe a century or more of British politics?  Could he not just step aside for someone that people like while in the background still pushing the policies he wants?  This seems so simple.

[classycarra]

From what I've found in looking at recent polling Corbyn is underwater with the general UK populace by 20/65 or thereabouts.  I'm an American so maybe I should just stop caring but at the same time, and I'v asked it numerous times in the Brexit thread with no clear answer, how does Labor just not put forward a leader that people actually like and then crush the Tory's?  I honestly don't get it.  Is Corbyn not only the worst Labour leader but also the most selfish in maybe a century or more of British politics?  Could he not just step aside for someone that people like while in the background still pushing the policies he wants?  This seems so simple.

In simple terms that's pretty spot on. The short answer to your questions are yes, and the short explanation of why is factionalism.

[BrandoLFC]

In simple terms that's pretty spot on. The short answer to your questions are yes, and the short explanation of why is factionalism.

Your response in essence means he cares more about himself than the country.  Which again being from the US is a bit ironic but at the same time that’s still no excuse.  Whether it’s Biden, Warren, Sanders or whoever you’re going to see a D nominee favored most likely.  Corbyn  can’t say that.  I just don’t get it.
 

[oldfordie]

From what I've found in looking at recent polling Corbyn is underwater with the general UK populace by 20/65 or thereabouts.  I'm an American so maybe I should just stop caring but at the same time, and I'v asked it numerous times in the Brexit thread with no clear answer, how does Labor just not put forward a leader that people actually like and then crush the Tory's?  I honestly don't get it.  Is Corbyn not only the worst Labour leader but also the most selfish in maybe a century or more of British politics?  Could he not just step aside for someone that people like while in the background still pushing the policies he wants?  This seems so simple.

It's not a question of putting forward the best MP to be leader, it's a question of the Labour party membership voting for the best MP to be leader.  hundreds of thousands of people joined the Labour party just to vote for Corbyn to be leader. (long long story ) just as thousands of Brexit party +leave voters joined the Tory party to vote for Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson to be leader, both parties have been taken over by the hard/right left. nobody has a chance of beating Corbyn in a leadership vote, they would be insulted for thinking themselves worthy of opposing Corbyn.

[BrandoLFC]

It's not a question of putting forward the best MP to be leader, it's a question of the Labour party membership voting for the best MP to be leader.  hundreds of thousands of people joined the Labour party just to vote for Corbyn to be leader. (long long story ) just as thousands of Brexit party +leave voters joined the Tory party to vote for Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson to be leader, both parties have been taken over by the hard/right left. nobody has a chance of beating Corbyn in a leadership vote, they would be insulted for thinking themselves worthy of opposing Corbyn.

So you're saying that those people that joined 4 years ago joined knowing Corbyn would never lead the UK and they didn't care?  As that's where you're basically at.  It's not about challenging Corbyn it's about Corbyn realizing that he himself is an impediment to anything he wants to happen ever happening.

[filopastry]

So you're saying that those people that joined 4 years ago joined knowing Corbyn would never lead the UK and they didn't care?  As that's where you're basically at.  It's not about challenging Corbyn it's about Corbyn realizing that he himself is an impediment to anything he wants to happen ever happening.

I don't think his support would accept that, they no doubt believe that the country is going to be convinced of the obvious rightness of the cause any day now.

For the leadership themselves, maintaining control of the Labour party for their faction remains the main goal, I presume there is an assumption there that if they hang around long enough eventually the Tories will fuck up badly enough that they might get into power (in normal times that would already have happened, with the current shitshow in government).

For the diehard Corbyn supporters, I don't think there is much doubt that for all the talk of getting the Tories out, the real division they see is between true believers in the current project and everyone else, I doubt many of them see any difference between a relatively centrist Labour govt under Blair and the current Johnson govt, there is just them v everyone else. In that world view electability by moving to the centre is just surrender that guarantees defeat.

[Sangria]

Your response in essence means he cares more about himself than the country.  Which again being from the US is a bit ironic but at the same time that’s still no excuse.  Whether it’s Biden, Warren, Sanders or whoever you’re going to see a D nominee favored most likely.  Corbyn  can’t say that.  I just don’t get it.

Corbyn doesn't just care about himself. He cares about his friends and family too. They'll be out of a job the moment he steps down from the Labour leadership, as they only got their current well paid jobs because he was Labour leader. If he wrangles his way into the prime ministership, he'll have even more patronage to shower on friends and family.

[Red-Soldier]

Corbyn doesn't just care about himself. He cares about his friends and family too. They'll be out of a job the moment he steps down from the Labour leadership, as they only got their current well paid jobs because he was Labour leader. If he wrangles his way into the prime ministership, he'll have even more patronage to shower on friends and family.

Nepotism for the few 

[BoRed]

Your response in essence means he cares more about himself than the country.  Which again being from the US is a bit ironic but at the same time that’s still no excuse.  Whether it’s Biden, Warren, Sanders or whoever you’re going to see a D nominee favored most likely.  Corbyn  can’t say that.  I just don’t get it.

Corbyn's popularity doesn't matter as much in the UK as it would in a presidential election in the US, though. The US president is elected by the people, while in the UK people vote for their local MPs. Corbyn's popularity obviously impacts those votes to an extent, but as long as enough Labour MPs are elected, Corbyn, as party leader, can become PM regardless of how unpopular he is. He could even become PM in a coalition government despite other parties having massive reservations about him - again, as Labour leader, they can't form a government without him. Here's a sensible non-Corbynite voice in the Observer today arguing much the same:

There is only one route out of the Brexit maze and Jeremy Corbyn must lead the way

Will Hutton

Labour’s leader is not my natural political bedfellow but I believe that he holds the key

Brexit-weary as we are, we must gird ourselves for the most significant few weeks for Britain since the Second World War. The crises of our economy, our constitution, our political parties, our identity and even public truthfulness are finally coming to a head. We must save our country from the duplicitous clutches of a zealous nationalist right – and for that the array of opposition parties and independent MPs, with Labour necessarily at its heart, must act.

There is only one way out of the maze. There must be a second referendum, with the facts laid out in the light of the lessons of the past three years. The seismic act of leaving the European Union, with its disastrous consequences, has to be reality-tested in a single-issue confirmatory vote. A general election, with its shopping list manifestos addressing multiple issues, can never provide either the clarity or legitimacy for addressing such a question, especially as it was a referendum that created the mess in the first place.

Project Fear, it turns out, was no project fear. Its forecast of lower investment (now 26% below other recoveries), lower growth (3% below trend as forecast) and a reduction in sterling’s value (18% down) were all correct or erred on the over-optimistic. Investment in the car industry has plummeted from £4.5bn in 2014 to a projected £200m this year. Nothing like this has happened in a major industrial sector since the Great Depression of 1931.

Under Johnson’s already near-dead Brexit proposal, car companies will wind down their UK operations gradually; under no deal, they will simply close or exit as just-in-time production becomes impossible. Similarly hit: pharma, biotech and aerospace. Even the buoyant service sector is being infected: the IHS Markit business confidence indicator last week fell below 50, foretelling recession in services next year.

Overall, there can only be economic stagnation-cum-recession in 2020 and 2021; if there is no deal, in some sectors it will become a slump. The notion that slow-to-negotiate trade deals with Australia and the US will ride to the rescue is pure fantasy – the volume of trade is a fraction of that with the EU. The EU is an economic safe harbour. More than that. Britain is a European country with a European vocation. There is no deal better than the one we had, being full members of the EU.

Early this week, Jeremy Corbyn needs to make a speech along these lines, setting out the economic realities, and call for an extension of article 50 long enough to hold a second referendum. Labour, he should say, will support a deal with the EU – or an article 50 extension – only if a referendum is held with Remain on the ballot. If Johnson fails to negotiate a deal with the European council on 17 and 18 October, there must be a vote of no confidence and a government of national unity (GNU) formed, which he will lead, whose sole remit will be to take the confirmatory referendum bill through the House of Commons. The GNU will pre-commit to make no new policy, except in emergency circumstances and then only after a pre-declared consultation process. It will be a caretaker, bridge government.

The numbers could be there, if all the opposition forces find common purpose, since Johnson commands only 288 Tory votes and 10 DUP votes.

The first precondition is that Corbyn must declare that his aim is a second referendum. Already Nicola Sturgeon and even Ken Clarke have said they would support such an interim, single-issue government. The sticking point then becomes Jo Swinson and the Liberal Democrats. So far, the consequence of Swinson’s earlier veto of Corbyn’s offer for a GNU plus a general election, from which she slightly backtracked, has been masked because there is nothing newly viable to veto. But once he has declared for a referendum, she must put any reserves aside and support the leader of the opposition who commands the bulk of the votes that will form the GNU. It is pure realpolitik. The national interest trumps everything and her support will trigger the momentum to create the interim government. She can turn from blocker to enabler.

Yes, I know the anti-Corbyn criticisms – from both social media and in private exchanges with MPs. It is impossible to make common cause with someone who has so connived in antisemitism and been so consistently ambiguous over the EU. Don’t be fooled by his surface decency – he has unleashed the divisive red guard outriders in Momentum on some of the best in the Labour party. And Andrew Fisher, his policy director, when resigning wrote about the “blizzard of lies and excuses” and lack of “human decency” at the top. Corbyn’s radical socialism is so beyond even normal radical leftism that he constitutes a public menace, reflected in personal poll ratings of minus 60.

But... Corbyn is the leader of the opposition. If he is ready to commit to a second referendum along with the votes to make it happen, we must make common cause. Already, millions of lives have been blighted by Brexit; there will be millions more. In life, we do not always choose our political bedfellows – we build coalitions of the willing. This is the transcendent issue of our times. Swinson should not only say yes, she should say publicly that if Corbyn moves she will back him.

Once the referendum is won, which, given the polling numbers and gathering economic difficulties, is Remain’s to lose, the argument in the general election to follow will be how to reset British capitalism and society to address the scale of disaffection that fuelled the Leave vote. Then the Lib Dems can do battle with Corbyn – but from the security of being inside the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/06/only-one-route-out-of-brexit-maze-jeremy-corbyn-must-lead-way

[Libertine]

Corbyn's popularity doesn't matter as much in the UK as it would in a presidential election in the US, though. The US president is elected by the people, while in the UK people vote for their local MPs. Corbyn's popularity obviously impacts those votes to an extent, but as long as enough Labour MPs are elected, Corbyn, as party leader, can become PM regardless of how unpopular he is. He could even become PM in a coalition government despite other parties having massive reservations about him - again, as Labour leader, they can't form a government without him. Here's a sensible non-Corbynite voice in the Observer today arguing much the same:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/06/only-one-route-out-of-brexit-maze-jeremy-corbyn-must-lead-way

Labour are polling in the low to mid 20s against the most shambolic government in living memory. "Impacts to an extent"? It's a huge issue which is holding Labour back massively.

[BoRed]

It's a huge issue which is holding Labour back massively.

Of course it is. I was just pointing out that it is different from a US presidential election, and he could still become PM any day now.

Also, assume he did step down. Who do you think the Labour members will elect as leader next? It's like the Man Utd threads all the way from Moyes to Solskjaer, and beyond. Every time their manager gets sacked, people worry their next appointment would be better and would turn things around. But as long as the same people are in charge of appointments and recruitment, nothing will change.

[oldfordie]

So you're saying that those people that joined 4 years ago joined knowing Corbyn would never lead the UK and they didn't care?  As that's where you're basically at.  It's not about challenging Corbyn it's about Corbyn realizing that he himself is an impediment to anything he wants to happen ever happening.

No, am sure the opposite is true. many younger people new to politics believed Corbyns popularity would grow bigger and he would sweep to power.  older people who had refused to vote Labour joined the party as Corbyn held similar views, it wasn't all about wining a GE, it was also about running the Labour party they way they want it. taking control. they have achieved this so Corbyn is not a failure in their eyes.
Corbyn will not stand down, he has a chance of becoming PM. he has faced harsh criticism all his life, water off a ducks back.
Would a better MP give Labour more of a chance of winning a GE.
Back to my first point, no MP would stand a chance no matter how good they are.
If it came to a head to head debate then Corbyn would be cheered and clapped no matter what he said. the last leadership debates between Smith +Corbyn are still on you tube, have a look if you have time.see who made the best arguments on Brexit etc.

[Libertine]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/06/only-one-route-out-of-brexit-maze-jeremy-corbyn-must-lead-way

Pointless for Hutton to argue the Lib Dems are the ones blocking a GONU. The votes aren't there for Corbyn, even if the Lib Dems supported him:



https://twitter.com/sarahwollaston/status/1179520731027251201

They probably would be there for a true unity figure. But that would require Corbyn to put the country before himself and his narrow partisan interests, which probably isn't going to happen.

[filopastry]

That is a pretty awful piece from Hutton, as you say Libertine it parrots the current Labour party line that it is the LDs who are the problem when it isn't just the LDs who are the issue.

Also now seems to have moved beyond the previous request that the LDs need to hold their nose and put him in power just long enough to get an extension in place, now it is long for long enough to organise and hold a second referendum and presumably start the implementation of the result.

Given McDonnell's statement this morning that Labour won't support a GoNU led by anyone but Corbyn, maybe we can move on from speculating about this particular pipedream, or Labour can figure out how the magical power of having the LOTO gets them from 244 to about 320 or so MPs

[ShakaHislop]

That is a pretty awful piece from Hutton, as you say Libertine it parrots the current Labour party line that it is the LDs who are the problem when it isn't just the LDs who are the issue.

Also now seems to have moved beyond the previous request that the LDs need to hold their nose and put him in power just long enough to get an extension in place, now it is long for long enough to organise and hold a second referendum and presumably start the implementation of the result.

Given McDonnell's statement this morning that Labour won't support a GoNU led by anyone but Corbyn, maybe we can move on from speculating about this particular pipedream, or Labour can figure out how the magical power of having the LOTO gets them from 244 to about 320 or so MPs

From last Tuesday

But asked whether an interim government could be led by anyone other than Mr Corbyn, the official leader of the opposition, Mr McDonnell said: "No, the rules are the rules."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49891500

From this weekend


https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1180576875778727936

So is it a rule or "normal conventions" that McDonnell is using to back up his claim, because they are 2 different things? If it's the latter, do "normal conventions" apply in what would be a far from normal scenario?

I'm not convinced either by his assertion that Labour MPs wouldn't be prepared to back someone like Harriet Harman or Margaret Beckett if Corbyn couldn't win majority support from the House.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Pointless for Hutton to argue the Lib Dems are the ones blocking a GONU. The votes aren't there for Corbyn, even if the Lib Dems supported him:



https://twitter.com/sarahwollaston/status/1179520731027251201

They probably would be there for a true unity figure. But that would require Corbyn to put the country before himself and his narrow partisan interests, which probably isn't going to happen.

and seeing the amount of shit the Lib Dem’s have gotten from them, momentum, owned jones etc why the hell should they help out this lot?

[TepidT2O]

and seeing the amount of shit the Lib Dem’s have gotten from them, momentum, owned jones etc why the hell should they help out this lot?

Are you saying that calling people evil  tories doesn’t make them want to support you?

Shocked I tell you

[Trada]

I so hope Jess Philips loses the trigger ballots tomorrow sadly I think she won't to many people fall for her phony bullshit.

For me it would just take being reminded of one of her Tweets she did let alone all the me me me bullshit she does in the Murdoch press.

Taking the piss out of all the people that campaign for her for free and door knock for her in all weathers.

She is a c*nt.