Topic: Chelsea FC

[PhaseOfPlay]

Mate, I respect your knowledge of the game, but I have to disagree on that one. Yes, he is a great organizer and motivator, but his tactics are very limited and ordinary, and his teams are playing very dull football. I have been following his career since his Porto days, and he has always relied heavily on the quality, the experience and the depth of his squad. Basically, he is a snake oil salesman.

We're coming from two different perspectives I think. I don't believe he's capable of putting a team together like a Munich or a Barcelona. I don't think he can get down to the technical nitty gritty like Guardiola or Heynckes can. But when I say he knows the game inside out, I mean he knows what works functionally and what doesn't work functionally, and he doesn't try to do what he can't do. For example, he knows the space behind the fullbacks is always vulnerable, so he always has at least one - if not two - defensive rather than attacking fullbacks. He knows 1v1's win games, so he always has at least one player who can beat a defender 1v1. He knows that set-pieces and crosses being a large amount of goals, so he always has 2-3 players who are good in the air, or can take a free kick. He also knows you need a workhorse in central midfield to increase the chances of winning a game. So in that sense, he knows the game inside out. And the fact that he's won four different national leagues shows that he knows how to organise his teams to win over the long haul. It's not pretty football - and it's exceptionally functional, actually - but he knows what needs to be done to win league campaigns. Joe Cole when he joined Liverpool made an interesting quote about how Mourinho divides the league season up into groups of teams, much like the Alternative Premier League Table that Prof has. That, plus his scouting reports, his detailed training sessions, and his functional defensive tactics, all point to someone who understands how to organise a team. But his teams will never be creative and free-flowing.

[Macedonian Red Reborn]

I too have followed his career closely. His tactics may be limited, but he knows how to build a side around his system and win. Every criticism you have of him is true. However, when you've won that many trophies consistently across several clubs in different leagues, it's a bit much to stretch to calling him a 'snake oil salesman.' He motivates his players and is a terrifically disciplined defensive coach, even if it is awful to watch. He has a type of player who fits his archetype and he sticks to that. It's what Rodgers does, yet he's praised for that as his archetype is something more pleasing, aesthetically.

Mourinho's an odious fellow, he fails to win with anything approaching class and his antics have ceased being amusing and become genuinely ugly. However, he's won 2 x Champions Leagues, a UEFA Cup, 2 Portuguese Leagues, 2 Premier Leagues, an FA Cup, 2 League Cups, 2 x Serie A, a Coppa Italia, a Copa Del Rey and a La Liga, just off the top of my head. He may have won a few more domestic cups in Portugal and Italy and a super cup or two. I don't like him. He's a good manager.

Mate, I have used the "snake oil salesman" description because he does more damage than good to the clubs that he manages. Yes, he wins them some trophies, spending a fortune in the process, but he always leaves heavily dysfunctional squads behind him. When a club is hiring Maureen, it is almost like they are making a deal with the devil. It feels fine for a season or two, but always ends up in tears, and the damage is longstanding.

[Macedonian Red Reborn]

We're coming from two different perspectives I think. I don't believe he's capable of putting a team together like a Munich or a Barcelona. I don't think he can get down to the technical nitty gritty like Guardiola or Heynckes can. But when I say he knows the game inside out, I mean he knows what works functionally and what doesn't work functionally, and he doesn't try to do what he can't do. For example, he knows the space behind the fullbacks is always vulnerable, so he always has at least one - if not two - defensive rather than attacking fullbacks. He knows 1v1's win games, so he always has at least one player who can beat a defender 1v1. He knows that set-pieces and crosses being a large amount of goals, so he always has 2-3 players who are good in the air, or can take a free kick. He also knows you need a workhorse in central midfield to increase the chances of winning a game. So in that sense, he knows the game inside out. And the fact that he's won four different national leagues shows that he knows how to organise his teams to win over the long haul. It's not pretty football - and it's exceptionally functional, actually - but he knows what needs to be done to win league campaigns. Joe Cole when he joined Liverpool made an interesting quote about how Mourinho divides the league season up into groups of teams, much like the Alternative Premier League Table that Prof has. That, plus his scouting reports, his detailed training sessions, and his functional defensive tactics, all point to someone who understands how to organise a team. But his teams will never be creative and free-flowing.

Yes mate, I understand where you are coming from. Still, I have always been in favor of the builder-type managers, as opposed to the managers who provide instant success at a big price, and cause long-term damage in the process. Maybe it has something to do with the way our club was managed when I was growing up. My idols will always be the likes of Shankly and Paisley, and the managers who resemble them.

[Drinks Sangria]

Mate, I have used the "snake oil salesman" description because he does more damage than good to the clubs that he manages. Yes, he wins them some trophies, spending a fortune in the process, but he always leaves heavily dysfunctional squads behind him. When a club is hiring Maureen, it is almost like they are making a deal with the devil. It feels fine for a season or two, but always ends up in tears, and the damage is longstanding.

I suppose I'd have to agree with you, to an extent there. The 'deal with the devil' is right. They're handing over the keys to the kingdom for a shot at temporary glory. He's never going to build a dynasty. He knows he's not capable.

[Durlmints]

...

Sounds accurate!

I know a couple of Chelsea fans who literally bring up FIFA Ratings as a means to evaluate their players.

I know a couple of good Chelsea fans too mind, but the vast majority seem to fit your anecdote.

[golgolgol]

Mourinho in that interview last night firmly laid the blame at the feet of the players.  Poor form that from Mourinho.  Talking about emotional immaturity, you can't always have CL winners in your side.  Try eating like the rest of us.

He's very good at doing that. His interviews always seems to have the same pattern - "We wasted many opportunities, my players did not play well, they did not do what was asked..... As manager i take full responsibility". How convenient lol.

Mate, I respect your knowledge of the game, but I have to disagree on that one. Yes, he is a great organizer and motivator, but his tactics are very limited and ordinary, and his teams are playing very dull football. I have been following his career since his Porto days, and he has always relied heavily on the quality, the experience and the depth of his squad. Basically, he is a snake oil salesman.

Sort of agree. I think he is a good tactician but not the best. However he seems like an excellent motivator. From the various stories that have come out from players that played under him i get this impression. His tactics are nothing special. But he is the type of general you'd want to listen to before going into a battle.

[thegoodfella]

Generally he's been fucking up left, right and centre.

I've a theory Alan, one I've been thinking about since the farce that was the United Chelsea match a couple of weeks ago. I don't think Jose's heart in it anymore, he wanted the United job, was angling to get it but failed and hasn't gotten over it completely. Chelsea post is a mere consolation, and he's acting as such, treating the players with disdain and is in a comfort zone with the 'fans' whom he knows he can treat the way he wants and they will just shut up and take it in the end. It is as if a student gets in to his second choice college after getting rejected at the first choice and is miserable for the first semester still licking his wounds over the rejection and cannot focus on the job at hand. Jose of 2005 would've gone apeshit losing at home so early in the season, he would've taken of full backs and put more strikers on, he would've put Huth up top and put long ball after long ball on the defender's big fat head until he got an equalizer and a winner. But last night was telling in more ways than one, he just stood there and accepted the result as if it was nothing.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how the media spins it, no matter which journalist comes out and says Jose needs to find out a winning system and the best eleven, it does not hide the fact that they had both a few months ago and these players have only gotten better and more experienced since.

[Hank Scorpio]

^^^good theory that mate.  Could also be that he has thoroughly exhausted his approach which demands a lot of his players both mentally and physically.  I'd imagine it's easy to follow when the results are there but it's not exactly rewarding for a footballer.  Narcissism can only get you so far.

[lindylou100]

I've a theory Alan, one I've been thinking about since the farce that was the United Chelsea match a couple of weeks ago. I don't think Jose's heart in it anymore, he wanted the United job, was angling to get it but failed and hasn't gotten over it completely. Chelsea post is a mere consolation, and he's acting as such, treating the players with disdain and is in a comfort zone with the 'fans' whom he knows he can treat the way he wants and they will just shut up and take it in the end. It is as if a student gets in to his second choice college after getting rejected at the first choice and is miserable for the first semester still licking his wounds over the rejection and cannot focus on the job at hand. Jose of 2005 would've gone apeshit losing at home so early in the season, he would've taken of full backs and put more strikers on, he would've put Huth up top and put long ball after long ball on the defender's big fat head until he got an equalizer and a winner. But last night was telling in more ways than one, he just stood there and accepted the result as if it was nothing.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how the media spins it, no matter which journalist comes out and says Jose needs to find out a winning system and the best eleven, it does not hide the fact that they had both a few months ago and these players have only gotten better and more experienced since.

Totally agree, thats the way I see it too. His heart doesn't appear to be in it at chelsea, like he views his return as a step back. I don't know if its as much about not getting the MU job as it is about the relative failure at madrid (this means not winning the CL and losing the League to vilanova despite his cancer treatment) and the way he left in acrimonious circumstances. His speech about his CL record at madrid before he left was pathetic, calling him self the master of the CL semi final because he'd reached more than any previous madrid manager. What he failed to point out was that 2 of those managers had actually won the thing and he had the most expensive squad assembled in history but still couldn't win it. I bet he's wondering where/what is there left for him to go an achieve now? he'll never get another shot at madrid and definitely never at barcelona.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

Why call him "Jose"?

Did you call Ferguson "Alex"?

[indlfc]

Andy Jacobs on the radio then:

"I'll watch the Europa League if Chelsea are in it. Otherwise I can't be bothered. It's such a pointless, boring competition".

Just about sums their fanbase up.

Crazy. Most of Liverpool fans would kill themselves if we are in it.

[El Lobo]

Crazy. Most of Liverpool fans would kill themselves if we are in it.

I did wonder why attendances were down.

[Alan_X]

As much as I hate to jump to Mourinho's defence... Yes he didn't win anything last season, but he's still got a league title and a Copa Del Rey to show for his time in Spain. It's not really nothing is it? The guy's a winner. A loathsome, snide, smug c*nt, yes. But he's a classless winner nonetheless.

Pep Guardiola - 14 trophies in 4 seasons with Barcelona, Jose Mourinho - 3 trophies in 3 seasons with a Real Madrid squad that included players like Casillas, Carvalho, Pepe, Ramos, Ronaldo, Kaka, Benzema, Ozil, Xabi Alonso, Arbeloa, Higuain... and so on. In absolute terms, yes he won something at Real Madrid but fuck me, with that team he should have won a lot more.

And last season there was no Pep but he won fuck all... in fact he didn't just fail to win he created turmoil in the dressing room and generally screwed up because his ego was dented.

[Alan_X]

I've a theory Alan, one I've been thinking about since the farce that was the United Chelsea match a couple of weeks ago. I don't think Jose's heart in it anymore, he wanted the United job, was angling to get it but failed and hasn't gotten over it completely. Chelsea post is a mere consolation, and he's acting as such, treating the players with disdain and is in a comfort zone with the 'fans' whom he knows he can treat the way he wants and they will just shut up and take it in the end. It is as if a student gets in to his second choice college after getting rejected at the first choice and is miserable for the first semester still licking his wounds over the rejection and cannot focus on the job at hand. Jose of 2005 would've gone apeshit losing at home so early in the season, he would've taken of full backs and put more strikers on, he would've put Huth up top and put long ball after long ball on the defender's big fat head until he got an equalizer and a winner. But last night was telling in more ways than one, he just stood there and accepted the result as if it was nothing.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how the media spins it, no matter which journalist comes out and says Jose needs to find out a winning system and the best eleven, it does not hide the fact that they had both a few months ago and these players have only gotten better and more experienced since.

Yes - I'd go with that.

[Pinky_Bieber]

Pep Guardiola - 14 trophies in 4 seasons with Barcelona, Jose Mourinho - 3 trophies in 3 seasons with a Real Madrid squad that included players like Casillas, Carvalho, Pepe, Ramos, Ronaldo, Kaka, Benzema, Ozil, Xabi Alonso, Arbeloa, Higuain... and so on. In absolute terms, yes he won something at Real Madrid but fuck me, with that team he should have won a lot more.

And last season there was no Pep but he won fuck all... in fact he didn't just fail to win he created turmoil in the dressing room and generally screwed up because his ego was dented.

with that team even fat Sam can win three trophies in three years

[Xxavi]

You need a lot more than motivation to win trophies at any level in football. And you need a lot more than just motivation to win three of the top leagues in Europe. And you need more than just motivation to win two Champions Leagues and a UEFA Cup. He knows the game inside out, and he knows how to organise a team to win. If it was all down to motivation, Colin Wanker would be the most successful manager in England

Motivation and primitive football on the counter. You don't need to be genius really.

Every year, CL is littered with "hard to beat" teams who park the bus and camp in their penalty area. Of course with a better set of individuals, they counter attack faster and better. I maintain my opinion that he is just a very one dimensional coach. Sure, if you hand him enough money he will get the players for his football. Until then, he will complain, even if he has a team that can play devastatingly good football.

Also, motivation thing is running out. It's not endless. Mourinho himself conceded that he needs constant change of scenery to find new motivation. You cannot go on motivation alone really. Mourinho just after the Basel match blamed EtoO's condition on loss of motivation in Russia. So now, there are 2 big questions for Chelsea:

1. Does Mourinho himself have the same motivation he had when he came to Chelsea? Has he been exhausted emotionally at Madrid? Because without motivation, he is a mediocre coach.
2. Does Abramovich plan to fund the Mourinho counter attack project? Will he be OK with losing so much money, perhaps brilliant players, for the sake of ugly football he detested not long ago?

[clinical]

Mourinho is proving what I've always known the guy is just overrated.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Motivation and primitive football on the counter. You don't need to be genius really.

You should become a manager then, if it's that easy

[Xxavi]

You should become a manager then, if it's that easy

Well, not easy probably, but I always had more respect for his disciples Rodgers and Villas Boas, who actually try to play football than play shite ugly football with expensive squads, and then complain and blame everybody if it doesn't work.

In Premier league alone, I respect and rate 5 managers ahead of him. Laudrup, Rodgers, Villas Boas, Wenger and Martinez. These guys try to play football, no matter their budget. Its easier to defend than attack.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Well, not easy probably, but I always had more respect for his disciples Rodgers and Villas Boas, who actually try to play football than play shite ugly football with expensive squads, and then complain and blame everybody if it doesn't work.

In Premier league alone, I respect and rate 5 managers ahead of him. Laudrup, Rodgers, Villas Boas, Wenger and Martinez. These guys try to play football, no matter their budget. Its easier to defend than attack.

I agree. I prefer managers and coaches who want to get the ball down and play, and for this reason I have a grudging (but through gritted teeth) respect for Ferguson - he wanted good 1v1 players and wanted them to express themselves. But I was being tongue in cheek when I replied to you. Of course winning leagues isn't easy, and a whole set of circumstances have to happen for a manager like Mourinho to come in and have instant or near-instant success - but he still has to do the job, and a high proportion of managers fail in that respect. His method of his achievements can be questioned, but his ability to get those achievements can't. He's an outcomes manager, rather than a processes manager like Rodgers, Guardiola or Villas-Boas. And judged on his outcomes, he obviously knows what he's doing. Judged on his processes though, and it becomes less respectable.

[RideTheWalrus]

Mourinho is proving what I've always known the guy is just overrated.

oh aye, one loss and he's overrated. 

his record speaks for himself to be honest.

[Xxavi]

^I know, its weird to say it, but it would be interesting if Mourinho takes a smaller club with smaller budget. Things fell for him nicely, but I just want to see how he does at a club that is not favorite to win the competitions, and with bottomless budget. Yes, the same is true for Pep Guardiola.

Both deserved their success, but I believe its a different challenge to manage Getafe and Swansea (Laudrup), Wigan, Swansea and Everton (Martinez) etc. I think especially Mourinho will have a hard time. I believe Pep can install a game style at least.

PS Oh and in the list above, I forgot to mention Pellegrini. So yeah, I'd take 6 managers ahead of Mourinho from Premier League alone.

[koolkamal]

Julio Cesar said when Rafa was at Inter that the difference between Rafa and Mourinho was that Rafa focused more on coaching the players while Mourinho had more focus on the psychology of the players.

I think people are being too literal with this whole motivation thing. I think it goes much deeper than just motivation.

[Macedonian Red Reborn]

You should become a manager then, if it's that easy

Well, it is not THAT easy, but it is certainly easier to play ugly counter-attacking football when you have the likes of Alonso, Ozil, Modric and Khedira controlling your midfield, and the likes of C.Ronaldo, Higuain, Di Maria, Benzema and Callejon playing upfront. Of course, a proper manager could have made these talented players playing some awesome football, and would have found a way to use players like Kaka, Van der Vaart, Sahin or Canales.

[Halcyon Lissome]

Pep Guardiola - 14 trophies in 4 seasons with Barcelona, Jose Mourinho - 3 trophies in 3 seasons with a Real Madrid squad that included players like Casillas, Carvalho, Pepe, Ramos, Ronaldo, Kaka, Benzema, Ozil, Xabi Alonso, Arbeloa, Higuain... and so on. In absolute terms, yes he won something at Real Madrid but fuck me, with that team he should have won a lot more.

And last season there was no Pep but he won fuck all... in fact he didn't just fail to win he created turmoil in the dressing room and generally screwed up because his ego was dented.

You can't compare like that, frankly. Mourinho was playing in the same league as Barca. And as much money that Real spent and as great as they bought; that Barca team was just better.

And so if Barca win one title, that's one less title Mourinho can win. So, despite it all, he was still up against it. The fact that he even beat Barca to the title once is a victory in itself. Who knows if it'll happen again anytime soon.

[Hank Scorpio]

^I know, its weird to say it, but it would be interesting if Mourinho takes a smaller club with smaller budget. Things fell for him nicely, but I just want to see how he does at a club that is not favorite to win the competitions, and with bottomless budget. Yes, the same is true for Pep Guardiola.

But he never will.  Mourinho can basically select his job in football such is his reputation.  Well, almost.  But he always ends up at a club with huge resources.  He's clever like that because he knows how fickle & material the football world can be.

[zero zero]

oh aye, one loss and he's overrated. 

It's not one loss. It's three losses in four games - Bayern in the Super Cup, unambitious draw at OT, Everton and now Basle.

[lionel_messias]

Nothing surprises me in football, Chelsea fans will be calling for Rafa to come back soon

And how embarrassing will it be when Lukaku starts scoring for Everton?

[Pinky_Bieber]

oh aye, one loss and he's overrated. 

his record speaks for himself to be honest.

he has lost against Real Madrid, Bayern, Everton, Basel...draw against ManUtd, and two wins against shite teams...thats hardly impressive

[Cpt_Reina]

he has lost against Real Madrid, Bayern, Everton, Basel...draw against ManUtd, and two wins against shite teams...thats hardly impressive

Its still very early days.

Mourinho's made some mistakes already, not getting a top level striker and then loaning out Lukaku being the worst. Also should have sorted out their CM really, Mikel still getting games is criminal.

But he'll sort them out eventually. He's too good, and the talent in the squad is such that it will happen, at some point.

The key for Chelsea will be how soon it happens.

[muyuu]

I'm loving it. Every time anyone mentions "Rafa" their forums go into meltdown. It's becoming into some sort of trauma now, and as Napoli win it hurts more and more

Couldn't happen to more deserving c*nts.

Wanted "the special one" back? LOL

[Hank Scorpio]

he has lost against Real Madrid, Bayern, Everton, Basel...draw against ManUtd, and two wins against shite teams...thats hardly impressive

Didn't actually realise how bad that run was.  That's pretty bad.  But agree with Cpt Reina.  Mourinho will get them sorted soon.  He's results driven.  It may mean the likes of Hazard/Willian and of course Mata see less game time but Mourinho will string a run of results together. 

Still think given their resources, they will win the league if only because City/United are going through a period of flux.

[muyuu]

He's very good at doing that. His interviews always seems to have the same pattern - "We wasted many opportunities, my players did not play well, they did not do what was asked..... As manager i take full responsibility". How convenient lol.

Mourinho: "I think the team probably is not a team with such maturity and personality to face the difficult moments of the game"

How such a complete twat can be a cult hero down in Chelsea sort of defines their fanbase.

Sort of agree. I think he is a good tactician but not the best. However he seems like an excellent motivator. From the various stories that have come out from players that played under him i get this impression. His tactics are nothing special. But he is the type of general you'd want to listen to before going into a battle.

Chelsea are anything but a team of "kids" although they have a few. They have a lot of talent, but it's very badly balanced, they needed a tactician to get some results coming and start making wise additions to the team. Someone like their loather Rafa Benitez.

Mourinho is not the right man for a transition, he's a man to take a team of superstars and push them into violent, win-at-any-costs counter punch football. They are in for MASSIVE disappointment. Finesse players like Mata, Hazard or Oscar, even Luiz are in complete cultural shock with the likes of "the special one".

[golgolgol]

You can't compare like that, frankly. Mourinho was playing in the same league as Barca. And as much money that Real spent and as great as they bought; that Barca team was just better.

And so if Barca win one title, that's one less title Mourinho can win. So, despite it all, he was still up against it. The fact that he even beat Barca to the title once is a victory in itself. Who knows if it'll happen again anytime soon.

You could argue that Barca lost the title as much as Madrid won it. Barca dropped points at critical stages that season. Pellegrini did equally well with Real Madrid with a weaker team, only difference was that Barca were just too good that season. I honestly think any good manager would have won the La Liga title with Real Madrid that season.

[lionel_messias]

If he does fail - and it is very very early days - Chelsea would have come full circle and reached the end of the line.

Abramovich would have noone to turn to - except maybe himself as manager, in a fat suit, with a funny wig.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

If he does fail - and it is very very early days - Chelsea would have come full circle and reached the end of the line.

Abramovich would have noone to turn to - except maybe himself as manager, in a fat suit, with a funny wig.

There's always managers around, especially for a Russian tycoon.

That Basel guy, the Benfica guy, Felix Magath, Hector Cuper, Leonardo.

}or he could just throw the bucket full of money to Klopp.

[JTK]

Master of spin this guy, great at it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24177905

Jose Mourinho blames Chelsea form on style change

Chelsea boss Jose Mourinho says his side's poor form is because he is trying to improve their style of play.

 The club have lost their last two games - against Everton and Basel - and made their worst league start in 10 years.

"I don't like the way Chelsea were playing in the last couple of years. The club doesn't like it and we want to change," Mourinho said.

"When you want to build something different and the players are adapted and comfortable - it's more difficult."
 The Portuguese says that he cannot predict how long it will take for his tactical changes to improve results.

"Tomorrow maybe we win 3-0 against Fulham and everything is perfect, or maybe I will lose for the first time at home at Chelsea in four years and 200 league matches, and it is a big story.

"Football is not mathematic. I don't know."

Since Mourinho's first stint at Chelsea ended abruptly in September 2007, Avram Grant, Felipe Scolari, Guus Hiddink, Carlo Ancelotti, Andre Villas-Boas, Roberto Di Matteo and Rafael Benitez have all occupied the manager's role at Stamford Bridge.

Mourinho, who said that he would not play with "low blocks" - a reference to deep-lying defence - or with centre-backs deployed in midfield, claimed he would not be happy with victories alone.

"If someone expects me to play against Fulham tomorrow with nine players behind the ball and wait for them to make a mistake and win 1-0, then I will not go home happy," he added.

"We have a lot to do. The work I have to do does not sell papers - big defeats and big victories do - but the only thing I can do is to have belief in my players and wait for the results to come."

Chelsea's haul of seven points from their opening four Premier League games is their worst start to a campaign since Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich bought the club in the summer of 2003.

Mourinho insists however, that his revamp of their tactics cannot be deemed a failure until they fall out of contention for silverware, as they did last season.

"We have lost nothing. You like to compare things but we didn't finish third in the Champions League, we did not get relegated to the Europa League and we did not finish third in the Premier League," he said.

[RobbieRedman]

so not only having a pop at Rafa but Villa Boas and Di Matteo too, what a prick, zero class

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

Mourinho, who said that he would not play with "low blocks" - a reference to deep-lying defence - or with centre-backs deployed in midfield, claimed he would not be happy with victories alone.

"If someone expects me to play against Fulham tomorrow with nine players behind the ball and wait for them to make a mistake and win 1-0, then I will not go home happy," he added.

It had to hurt him to say that.

[sinnermichael]

Josh McEachran joins Watford on loan until 2 January.