Author Topic: Racism in Football  (Read 149651 times)

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #640 on: October 25, 2019, 06:25:28 pm »
As I understand Nessy's point (and I agree with it) racism is not about individual acts of abuse. It's about the structure of society and the dominance of one group over another in terms of positions of power, positions of influence, positions of historical and inherited wealth.

So yes, while it is true that a working class white male will have less freedom and disposable income and status than a black doctor, this is missing the point. The point is that for all the hardships that poor white fellow encounters, his race isn't an additional problem for him on top of them. We can't say that for sure about what the doctor went through to get to where he is.

This sounds like an empirical claim and insofar as empirical evidence is considered, it is demonstrably false. Numerous studies have shown that white sounding names on CVs get called back at a far higher rate than black or (god forbid muslim) sounding names, even when the CV is exactly the same. This is the case in the UK and America. This sort of prejudice abounds. Look up the ratio of non-white people getting accepted to Oxbridge compared to ratio of non-white people in the general population. Yes, of course, there are individual anecdotes of non-white people getting ahead and there are white folks who get a bad deal. But the general trend is clear. Money is a big hindrance to social mobility, but so is race.

Very well argued

Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #641 on: October 25, 2019, 06:28:42 pm »
Can you post the study for that empirical evidence, I’d be interested to see it?

Also, the point about Oxford is a class one surely as it’s not that non-whites aren’t getting accepted in at the expense of all whites. It is that upper class people are accepted in at a higher rate and they are mostly white. So the non-whites aren’t getting in because they’re not upper class, not because they’re non-white.

The fact that the upper classes are majority, disproportionately non-white is an issue, and contributes to this isssue but I’d say the likelihood is oxbridge are making decisions on class and background, rather than race. The historic subjugation that has led to non-whites not being at the powerful end of society is therefore the cause, and will only be fixed over time, as the class system is something that doesn’t change much within a generation, but from generation to generation, and only then on an individual basis rather than any sort of total shake up.

I did mean to ask this yesterday and I think it leads on from the point though, about the demographics of oxbridge, isn’t their a fundamental issue with racism being defined by historical analysis (as Donkeywan put it) rather than by individuals and the feelings / emotions of individuals, that the historical analysis is done by intellectuals at institutions who are disproportionately white. So by defining the ownership over the definition of racism as such, you take its ownership away from those groups who are most adversely impacted and give it to the group who is more responsible for the initial subjugation?

Shouldn’t the definition be owned by those who are impacted by it, as something that is fluid and personal to them, and something that changes over time as society itself changes?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 06:40:18 pm by mikey_LFC »
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #642 on: October 25, 2019, 06:38:02 pm »
They are just as much a part of our society as everyone else though, in fact they are more in a lot of places and we all have a responsibility to tackle this in whatever way we can. Racism is creeping back into our game in England and needs stopping. They are happy enough to take our money for their product and they are taking money from the racists.

As Alan posted earlier, Divock is a very intelligent man. This has been said earlier, but those who made the banner, rather than ban them, take them to Melwood, get them to speak to Divock, I'm sure he'd love to have a chat and explain things to them. Read earlier the banner was actually in the ground in Madrid, so this has caused consternation as to why it wasn't picked up then.

It's not up to Divock to cure white people of racism though. It's not fair to put that on him. If he offers, awesome, if he doesn't, he shouldn't be asked.
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #643 on: October 25, 2019, 06:39:01 pm »
Can you post the study for that empirical evidence, I’d be interested to see it?
For racism in job applications, the study (carried out on behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions) is:

A Test for Racial Discrimination in Recruitment Practice in British Cities’, Martin Wood, Jon Hales, Susan Purdon, Tanja Sejersen and Oliver Hayllar, National Centre for Social Research, 2009.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 06:40:46 pm by Ghost Town »
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #644 on: October 25, 2019, 06:55:12 pm »
It's not up to Divock to cure white people of racism though. It's not fair to put that on him. If he offers, awesome, if he doesn't, he shouldn't be asked.

I'm not saying he should be asked to cure white people, I'm talking about this one incident. I would guess the lads who made it just saw it as a joke, hey Divock has got a huge cock and didn't mean any offence. From what Alan posted, it sounds like something Divock would enjoy. Don't force him, but I cannot see anything wrong for the club, in private, giving him the option.
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #645 on: October 25, 2019, 07:01:50 pm »
I'm not saying he should be asked to cure white people, I'm talking about this one incident. I would guess the lads who made it just saw it as a joke, hey Divock has got a huge cock and didn't mean any offence. From what Alan posted, it sounds like something Divock would enjoy. Don't force him, but I cannot see anything wrong for the club, in private, giving him the option.

I know what you mean, but it's not right to put that on him. Would you ask Sterling to do the same for that Chelsea fan?
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #646 on: October 25, 2019, 07:06:35 pm »


I did mean to ask this yesterday and I think it leads on from the point though, about the demographics of oxbridge, isn’t their a fundamental issue with racism being defined by historical analysis (as Donkeywan put it) rather than by individuals and the feelings / emotions of individuals, that the historical analysis is done by intellectuals at institutions who are disproportionately white. So by defining the ownership over the definition of racism as such, you take its ownership away from those groups who are most adversely impacted and give it to the group who is more responsible for the initial subjugation?

Shouldn’t the definition be owned by those who are impacted by it, as something that is fluid and personal to them, and something that changes over time as society itself changes?

On this point, there are a lot of excellent black and brown academics that point this out. So I wouldn't say it's a definition concocted by white people and imposed on the experiences of the non-white. Just on this page, Eddo-Lodge has been mentioned and she has written an excellent book arguing that racism is a historical/ structural phenomenon that manifests itself in acts of prejudice but is maintained by the complicity of the dominant class. And she's black.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #647 on: October 25, 2019, 07:09:11 pm »
I know what you mean, but it's not right to put that on him. Would you ask Sterling to do the same for that Chelsea fan?

No, because that Chelsea fan came across as a vile c*nt, he looked like he was spewing hatred at Raheem and I wouldn't give the piece of shit the time of day. I highly doubt it would make a difference anyway. I don't know the people who made the banner, but it could do some good to educate them. For all we know they are devastated that they have caused offence
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Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #648 on: October 25, 2019, 07:11:42 pm »
For racism in job applications, the study (carried out on behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions) is:

A Test for Racial Discrimination in Recruitment Practice in British Cities’, Martin Wood, Jon Hales, Susan Purdon, Tanja Sejersen and Oliver Hayllar, National Centre for Social Research, 2009.

That’s shocking. I just can’t imagine people turning down a CV because of a name.

I’d be interested to see a similar one with same names but different ethnicity. I guess I just don’t want to believe it’s someone going, I don’t want that non-white working here.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #649 on: October 25, 2019, 07:13:37 pm »
I know what you mean, but it's not right to put that on him. Would you ask Sterling to do the same for that Chelsea fan?

With that lot you have to be a bit more specific. ;)

Going back to the original suggestion the difference is that a couple of our misguided fans have tried, clumsily, to compliment one of our players, not abuse an opposition player.

I agree it shouldn't be put on to him but it would be a low key way to address the problem, in a private setting ff course.

Offline vagabond

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #650 on: October 25, 2019, 07:18:09 pm »
That’s shocking. I just can’t imagine people turning down a CV because of a name.

I’d be interested to see a similar one with same names but different ethnicity. I guess I just don’t want to believe it’s someone going, I don’t want that non-white working here.

Often enough people don't even recognize their own biases. I can easily imagine somebody turning down an identical CV for an interview because it's from Lakisha and not Emma. And then make post hoc rationalizations about how they didn't think they were qualified for some nitpicking reason to make themselves feel better. Call them a racist to their face and they'll bristle with indignation. But given that most people in the country who get to have this kind of power are white, the biases will result in widespread discrimination and yet nobody will admit to being a racist individual.
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Offline Nessy76

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #651 on: October 25, 2019, 07:51:01 pm »
Often enough people don't even recognize their own biases. I can easily imagine somebody turning down an identical CV for an interview because it's from Lakisha and not Emma. And then make post hoc rationalizations about how they didn't think they were qualified for some nitpicking reason to make themselves feel better. Call them a racist to their face and they'll bristle with indignation. But given that most people in the country who get to have this kind of power are white, the biases will result in widespread discrimination and yet nobody will admit to being a racist individual.

A cousin of mine is married to a Nigerian guy. She is a scientist and has, several times, been told to "Work on her English" by editors at journals she was submitting articles to. They just saw the name and decided that her English must be poor, despite her actually being English. (She also had several colleagues proof read the articles first.)
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #652 on: October 25, 2019, 07:55:00 pm »
Some top posts in here guys,eye opening,quite shocking..most of all educational.
Thanks to the many contributors, since my original post after reading through replies there have been quite a few workmates,colleagues & fellow reds who I have given links here & have asked to pass on their regards.
Also thanks for the support too when I really feared being cannon fodder.
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #653 on: October 25, 2019, 08:03:05 pm »
EDITED to be clear that I wasn't calling for quotas or box ticking

Often enough people don't even recognize their own biases. I can easily imagine somebody turning down an identical CV for an interview because it's from Lakisha and not Emma. And then make post hoc rationalizations about how they didn't think they were qualified for some nitpicking reason to make themselves feel better. Call them a racist to their face and they'll bristle with indignation. But given that most people in the country who get to have this kind of power are white, the biases will result in widespread discrimination and yet nobody will admit to being a racist individual.
Yes it's important to make clear that one does not have to dislike black people, or feel any conscious prejudice against them to still end up being complicit, often unconsciously, within a structurally racist system (the word 'structural' is preferred to 'institutional' as the latter implies it only happens within established institutions, when in fact it takes place within any defined structure, however loose).

One can even be consciously anti-racist and still be part of a structurally racist system. When the vast majority of successful people in any field - business, politics, publishing/media, law, clergy etc are white (and often white males) then 'white' is what 'success' ends up looking like and people adjust their responses and behaviour accordingly, and unconsciously, to reflect that idea.

That's why 'positive action' is so important, stuff like the Rooney Rule in sport and making it a point to interview at least one non-white candidate for every job, as far as possible. Yet whenever positive action for race is utilised people start moaning about 'quotas' and 'should give the job to the best candidate, regardless of colour/race'. Yes, sure, no-one is calling for quotas, and no-one suggests that jobs should be given to people who are not suitable, just because of their race or to tick a box. But you can only find out if a non-white person is the best candidate if you interview non-white candidates. If you (consciously or unconsciously) select against them then you'll never find any non-white 'best candidates' and that will reinforce the idea that non-white people are not suitable for that job, both among white people, and among non-whites who will stop applying.

Similarly the idea that representation of non-white people in any given field needs to be exactly in line with the percentage make-up of non-whites in society is a misnomer and misses the point. It's lack of black people that needs to be tackled not lack of white people; having more then the societal percentage of non-whites sometimes will not under-represent white people, but over-representation of black people might start changing attitudes towards black people as they are seen to be competent and successful.

There's a job that needs to be done to redress the vicissitudes of structural racism, and that sometimes will require positive action; hopefully not for ever, but at least while the iniquities are rebalanced.


(I'm using the words black and non-white interchangeably to mean any non-white people)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 08:45:35 pm by Ghost Town »
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Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #654 on: October 25, 2019, 08:40:11 pm »
That in itself comes with negative stereotypes and resentment though from both sides as unintended consequences. You have the resentment felt by those not getting jobs who blame the quotas and the people who believe they were only called in as a token gesture. The token black guy is already a stereotype and the anger felt by lower classes that vote anti immigration stems from action just like this.

It’s well intended but as issues in itself. Just banning names from appearing on CVs or being asked for in preliminary stages of interviews could be simpler.

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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #655 on: October 25, 2019, 08:44:52 pm »
Some top posts in here guys,eye opening,quite shocking..most of all educational.
Thanks to the many contributors, since my original post after reading through replies there have been quite a few workmates,colleagues & fellow reds who I have given links here & have asked to pass on their regards.
Also thanks for the support too when I really feared being cannon fodder.

It's all in how it's handled man, and you were open minded and respectful.

"How is this racist" is so different to "this isn't racist" when it comes to understanding the viewpoints of others. I went through a similar process trying to figure out how to talk to people across the gender spectrum and if you ask for help people are always more than happy to offer it.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #656 on: October 25, 2019, 08:56:07 pm »
That in itself comes with negative stereotypes and resentment though from both sides as unintended consequences. You have the resentment felt by those not getting jobs who blame the quotas and the people who believe they were only called in as a token gesture. The token black guy is already a stereotype and the anger felt by lower classes that vote anti immigration stems from action just like this.

It’s well intended but as issues in itself. Just banning names from appearing on CVs or being asked for in preliminary stages of interviews could be simpler.
I wasn't being clear; I went back and edited my post. I'm not calling for quotas, and no affirmative action programmes ever call for quotas. I'm saying that when attempts are made to redress issues by making efforts to invite black applications, and ensuring that black applicants are at least interviewed, the result is accusations of quotas and tokenism when that's not the point.

The point is you need black people to apply for jobs before you can interview them/assess their suitability. And you need to interview them before you can see if they are the best candidate or not. Where black people are not applying enough for jobs in a field, and where they are not being selected for interview enough, some positive action is needed to redress the balance, otherwise it becomes a retrograde circle - black people are not seen in such jobs so black people don't apply, black people don't apply so black people aren't seen in such jobs etc
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #657 on: October 25, 2019, 09:10:16 pm »
Yeah that's exactly right. The problem is that equally qualified non-white people are being overlooked; not that unqualified non-white people should get the jobs.
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Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #658 on: October 25, 2019, 09:44:51 pm »
The same issues exist for that. Its not a bad idea, just it’s complex as you’re not dealing with the issue in isolation and the last thing anyone wants is increased hostility off the back of a policy.

Reporting the issues, raising awareness and discussing the issue slowly making ground so when people are hiring this springs to mind and they override any automatic decision making and think before putting aside a CV because they can’t pronounce the name.

It’s not perfect and means it takes more time than people want but active policies are more likely to stoke the flames of tension in society. These ideas took hundreds of year to come about and imbed themselves in society and they’ll take a similar timeframe to be erased, bit by bit.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #659 on: October 25, 2019, 10:01:11 pm »
Gonna tread verry carefully here, but I know I'm here with good, smart folk who have a good handle on this.

Regarding the "two-way-street" and how it's deemed not to work this way because "history" etc...

Firstly, I get this....but I also get that this only flies if we're all prepared to observe racial groupings and then psychologically check in and identify with the one we belong to. We then have to somehow "take ownership" of our own racial grouping's history, and along with this... ALL of it's abominable behaviour.

So it's not a big stretch to say that "two-way-street" racial address should not be a valid thing because:

"sins of the father.."

In this instance however, racial grouping uses colour as it's paternal back-trace mechanism, so if you are born of a certain colour, you arrive as a bonny, bouncing baby with associated, hereditary "guilt" stamped all over your epidermis and it's melanin distribution.

This is the part I really struggle with, have never bought into, and never will.

It's certainly not the reason why I enjoy respectful and meaningful relationships across the racial spectrum. There are other reasons for this, but the notion that I somehow "owe" my darker skinned brothers respect, equanimity and decency is not, and has never been...a prime consideration for me.

The "fuck ups" of past generations IMHO...is not a debt that can be [or should be] sold on.. and settled by current generations. Especially is this the case for people who know their family tree, and have no links whatsoever with any actions that caused harm or pain to another racial group.

So for me, the "two-way-street" has to remain in place in terms of what I offer..[and what I expect] from any other human being I have interaction with. Whatever imbalances existed prior my arrival on the planet cannot ever be cited as a reason why something which is "wrong" for me, is somehow "ok" for another person.

There's a principle at stake here, and I think that if and when this world ever achieves the desirable state of "colour-blindness" in all of it's most intimate human affairs, this principle will be the cornerstone which makes this work.

I accept that politically, and societally....we're all just working the problem at the moment and trying to move forward in a way which acknowledges historical narratives, and we're seeking to change them and also to counter-balance them....but ultimately, the principles which will lift us out of this phase will be "human" principles which are fit for purpose in any time or century.

I think that only then, will we see colour and racial groupings as an utter irrelevance in how we apportion rights, dignity and opportunity to every single citizen.

 

 :)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 11:25:18 pm by ...anything will do. »
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #660 on: October 25, 2019, 10:17:05 pm »
The problem is not merely historical though is it? Of course nobody should should be blamed for the sins of past generations. The problem however is that discrimination, at a structural level of society, exists in the present. And for this, we are all culpable for our biases, the stereotypes we buy into, the structures we respect etc. Non-white people, in the UK of today, have biases and structures stacked against them. This is the reality they are currently living. And in this world, there is no question of a two-way street. If we do, one day, reach a point where there is no structural discrimination, then perhaps we can talk about the two-way street.
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Offline mikey_LFC

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #661 on: October 25, 2019, 10:22:15 pm »
Fantastic post ...anything will do. Sums up well how I see the situation too. It’s a tight rope walk, creating equal opportunities is important but you can’t overstep the mark into punishing or adversely affecting others. It’s small steps towards “colour-blindness”, as you put it.

You have to set the principles of society you want and let it play out, an steps further than that might have short term benefits but are very likely to have negative side effects that will cause similar issues further down the line. Time is the only healer, it sucks for those on the wrong side of it, but we can’t repeat mistakes. We can only discuss the topic, educate those around us and each do the little bits in our environment, tending to our garden and eventually we will get there.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 10:33:46 pm by mikey_LFC »
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Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #662 on: October 25, 2019, 10:35:59 pm »
Gonna tread verry carefully here, but I know I'm here with good, smart folk who have a good handle on this.

Regarding the "two-way-street" and how it's deemed not to work this way because "history" etc...

Firstly, I get this....but I also get that this only flies if we're all prepared to observe racial groupings and then psychologically check in and identify with the one we belong to. We then have to somehow "take ownership" of our own racial grouping's history, and along with this... ALL of it's abominable behaviour.

So it's not a big stretch to say that "two-way-street" racial address should not be a valid thing because:

"sins of the father.."

In this instance however, racial grouping uses colour as it's paternal back-trace mechanism, so if you are born of a certain colour, you arrive as a bonny, bouncing baby with associated, hereditary "guilt" stamped all over your epidermis and it's melanin distribution.

This is the part I really struggle with, have never bought into, and never will.

It's certainly not the reason why I enjoy respectful and meaningful relationships across the racial spectrum. There are other reasons for this, but the notion that I somehow "owe" my darker skinned brothers respect, equanimity and decency is not, and has never been...a prime consideration for me.

The "fuck ups" of past generations IMHO...is not a debt that can be [or should be] sold on.. and settled by current generations. Especially is this the case for people who know their family tree, and have no links whatsoever with any any actions that caused harm or pain to another racial group.

So for me, the "two-way-street" has to remain in place in terms of what I offer..[and what I expect] from any other human being I have interaction with. Whatever imbalances existed prior my arrival on the planet cannot ever be cited as a reason why something which is "wrong" for me, is somehow "ok" for another person.

There's a principle at stake here, and I think that if and when this world ever achieves the desirable state of "colour-blindness" in all of it's most intimate human affairs, this principle will be the cornerstone which makes this work.

I accept that politically, and societally....we're all just working the problem at the moment and trying to move forward in a way which acknowledges historical narratives, and we're seeking to change them and also to counter-balance them....but ultimately, the principles which will lift us out of this phase will be "human" principles which are fit for purpose in any time or century.

I think that only then, will we see colour and racial groupings as an utter irrelevance in how we apportion rights, dignity and opportunity to every single citizen.

 

 :)

The issue is not one of historical guilt, it's one of definition. People think 'racism' means prejudice or discrimination or hatred or feelings of superiority or a person of one race being treated badly by a person of another race but that is not the case. Racism is all those things + power.

That power component is essential.

Therefore, by definition, while prejudice or discrimination or hatred or feelings of superiority or a person of one race being treated badly by a person of another race are all potentially a two-way street, racism itself, in a given country or region, can only be a one-way street due to the power dynamic. In the UK historically and currently almost all the power is on one side, and it's that power which allows racism to be meaningfully felt. It's the power component which means that the other 'suffers' racism rather than just being theoretically aware of it.

I appreciate that this might seem like a semantic issue but it's not; the point is that we need to first accept that there's a power component in racism before we can properly tackle it. For years the general definition and people's gut feeling of what 'racism' means has failed to understand that.

This also means that much of the most essential work to combat racism has to take place at the structural level, to break down and neutralise that power gradient.

I hope that's a bit clearer.

The second point is that 'colour blindness', long sold as the desirable state of affairs has actually been shown to be functionally retrograde. The idea is that we should not even notice the colour of the people we meet and work with. It sounds fantastic and utopian, but in reality what it tends to do is undersell or even ignore the functional and structural components of racism that are going on.

Rather than try and ignore the race or colour of people around us, it may be better to be aware of it and keep an eye on whether people are being negatively affected by structural and unconscious racism, in a bid to fix problems rather than not notice they are there.

As part of this it's also worth bearing in mind that not even black people are always aware when they are undergoing/suffering structural racism. You'd assume that black people are acutely sensitive to racism and will always be aware of it. Not so. The structure is all-pervading and so dominant and unnoticed that, for example, black people sometimes end up acting structurally racist towards other black people (in corporate and institutional settings, for example) without even knowing it.

We've moved a long way from Origi and the banner.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #663 on: October 25, 2019, 10:44:03 pm »
Fantastic post ...anything will do. Sums up well how I see the situation too. It’s a tight rope walk, creating equal opportunities is important but you can’t overstep the mark into punishing or adversely affecting others. It’s small steps towards “colour-blindness”, as you put it.
Have you considered that the very fact that you view positive/affirmative action a 'punishing' and 'adversely affecting others' rather than simply leveling a historically and currently unequal playing field, is part of the problem itself?

As I mentioned earlier whenever any kind of positive action is mooted, this is the inevitable response. Just like when people say things like the Origi banner is not acceptable there's a predictable, inevitable response (it's not racist, who wouldn't want a big dick etc)

Please don't take this the wrong way; these responses are predictable and inevitable because they are part of the prevailing structure. That's part of what structural racism is all about, and why people like Reni Eddo-Lodge decided they could no longer talk about race to white people; because they just won't listen; they will just come out with responses that seem perfectly sane and well-meaning and logical to them, but which are part of the problem.

Quote
You have to set the principles of society you want and let it play out, an steps further than that might have short term benefits but are very likely to have negative side effects that will cause similar issues further down the line. Time is the only healer, it sucks for those on the wrong side of it, but we can’t repeat mistakes. We can only discuss the topic, educate those around us and each do the little bits in our environment, tending to our garden and eventually we will get there.
#
Time alone has been shown not to be a healer in this respect. Racism is, if anything, getting worse in the UK, not better
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #664 on: October 25, 2019, 11:09:33 pm »
Gonna tread verry carefully here, but I know I'm here with good, smart folk who have a good handle on this.

Regarding the "two-way-street" and how it's deemed not to work this way because "history" etc...

Firstly, I get this....but I also get that this only flies if we're all prepared to observe racial groupings and then psychologically check in and identify with the one we belong to. We then have to somehow "take ownership" of our own racial grouping's history, and along with this... ALL of it's abominable behaviour.

So it's not a big stretch to say that "two-way-street" racial address should not be a valid thing because:

"sins of the father.."

In this instance however, racial grouping uses colour as it's paternal back-trace mechanism, so if you are born of a certain colour, you arrive as a bonny, bouncing baby with associated, hereditary "guilt" stamped all over your epidermis and it's melanin distribution.

This is the part I really struggle with, have never bought into, and never will.

It's certainly not the reason why I enjoy respectful and meaningful relationships across the racial spectrum. There are other reasons for this, but the notion that I somehow "owe" my darker skinned brothers respect, equanimity and decency is not, and has never been...a prime consideration for me.

The "fuck ups" of past generations IMHO...is not a debt that can be [or should be] sold on.. and settled by current generations. Especially is this the case for people who know their family tree, and have no links whatsoever with any any actions that caused harm or pain to another racial group.

So for me, the "two-way-street" has to remain in place in terms of what I offer..[and what I expect] from any other human being I have interaction with. Whatever imbalances existed prior my arrival on the planet cannot ever be cited as a reason why something which is "wrong" for me, is somehow "ok" for another person.

There's a principle at stake here, and I think that if and when this world ever achieves the desirable state of "colour-blindness" in all of it's most intimate human affairs, this principle will be the cornerstone which makes this work.

I accept that politically, and societally....we're all just working the problem at the moment and trying to move forward in a way which acknowledges historical narratives, and we're seeking to change them and also to counter-balance them....but ultimately, the principles which will lift us out of this phase will be "human" principles which are fit for purpose in any time or century.

I think that only then, will we see colour and racial groupings as an utter irrelevance in how we apportion rights, dignity and opportunity to every single citizen.

 

 :)

Good post, and I agree with you.

We can only be responsible for our own actions, and if people must be judged on anything, it is those.

Personally, I don't take ownership of anyone else's actions or beliefs. I only accept ownership and responsibility for my own. I won't go through life carrying someone else's guilt. All I can do is look at my own beliefs and the actions which result from them.

For me, of course there is a two way street. There always is when two or more people coexist. It's all about how we respect each other as human beings. Any human being can hold prejudice. Any human being can discriminate. If individual people respect each other as human beings, then race, colour, gender etc become non-issues. In human contact, everything is a two-way street. Both/all parties have influence over how they behave towards each other. Interaction is always two-way. Both/all parties will have their own thoughts, feelings, beliefs and attitudes. As all human beings are flawed, all have the capacity for prejudice and all of its negative manifestations. So again, for me, it comes back to taking ownership of who we are, and what we do.

Of course, we can all acknowledge the past and understand that the past is what has led to where we currently are, but we cannot be responsible for the past unless we personally contributed to it. We have to know what is our to own and what isn't, as do those who choose to judge us.

I understand about structural biases, but structures are made of individual components. When the attitudes of individuals change, structures start to crumble. As individuals its about being a component of the solution rather than a component of the problem. That is all we can do on a personal level, but when enough people do just that, biased structures weaken and eventually fall.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #665 on: October 25, 2019, 11:28:28 pm »
Time alone has been shown not to be a healer in this respect. Racism is, if anything, getting worse in the UK, not better
I definitely agree on this. In many contexts, time is indeed a great healer, but not with this kind of issue.

I think part of the problem is that people rarely learn from the mistakes of others who went before them. Human beings tend to learn best from personal experience. How many parents have learned painful lessons in life and tried to pass them on to their offspring only to see them go and make the very same mistakes themselves? I know myself that I had to learn things the hard way, via my own experience before it sunk in.

I also remember being in Auschwitz-Birkenau and reflecting on how even after that, humanity has not learned its lesson. Thing is, we have new generations needing to make their own mistakes. The lessons of the past barely register with the newer generations. In some contexts, time can heal, but in this context it has the opposite effect. The greater the time gap between the horror of what was and the people of today, the worse the racism and hate seems to become. Unfortunately, I think the human race is going to repeat the same mistakes over and over again because new generations always need to learn their own lessons.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #666 on: October 25, 2019, 11:42:36 pm »
So........... anyone fancy a pint?
3 midfielders minimum in the next window. And probably another young CB to boot.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #667 on: October 25, 2019, 11:51:12 pm »
One thing about the whole history thing and the fuckups of the past generations is that certain things will always be looked at a certain way, for example the Union Jack/st George’s cross is something a lot of black/Asians will always associate with the far right/National front/BNP brigade as opposed to a more innocent national pride

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #668 on: October 26, 2019, 12:05:21 am »
So........... anyone fancy a pint?
If you're paying.  :thumbup :hally
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #669 on: October 26, 2019, 01:06:56 am »
The issue is not one of historical guilt, it's one of definition. People think 'racism' means prejudice or discrimination or hatred or feelings of superiority or a person of one race being treated badly by a person of another race but that is not the case. Racism is all those things + power.

That power component is essential.

Therefore, by definition, while prejudice or discrimination or hatred or feelings of superiority or a person of one race being treated badly by a person of another race are all potentially a two-way street, racism itself, in a given country or region, can only be a one-way street due to the power dynamic. In the UK historically and currently almost all the power is on one side, and it's that power which allows racism to be meaningfully felt. It's the power component which means that the other 'suffers' racism rather than just being theoretically aware of it.

I appreciate that this might seem like a semantic issue but it's not; the point is that we need to first accept that there's a power component in racism before we can properly tackle it. For years the general definition and people's gut feeling of what 'racism' means has failed to understand that.

This also means that much of the most essential work to combat racism has to take place at the structural level, to break down and neutralize that power gradient.

I hope that's a bit clearer.

The second point is that 'colour blindness', long sold as the desirable state of affairs has actually been shown to be functionally retrograde. The idea is that we should not even notice the colour of the people we meet and work with. It sounds fantastic and utopian, but in reality what it tends to do is undersell or even ignore the functional and structural components of racism that are going on.

Rather than try and ignore the race or colour of people around us, it may be better to be aware of it and keep an eye on whether people are being negatively affected by structural and unconscious racism, in a bid to fix problems rather than not notice they are there.

As part of this it's also worth bearing in mind that not even black people are always aware when they are undergoing/suffering structural racism. You'd assume that black people are acutely sensitive to racism and will always be aware of it. Not so. The structure is all-pervading and so dominant and unnoticed that, for example, black people sometimes end up acting structurally racist towards other black people (in corporate and institutional settings, for example) without even knowing it.

We've moved a long way from Origi and the banner.


Ok, well I wasn't going to comment on the power component, but since you've quoted me and served it up as an *overlooked addendum to the points I was making, I'll weigh in.

*[it wasn't]

Amongst people with very little power within groups of any racial spectrum, power is not the primary thing which drives their attitudes and activities, and lacking power or influence is something which fucks over people of many assorted hues and backgrounds....even white people.

The power component, as it contributes and pertains to racial imbalance, is a consideration for those who actually have power, or indeed influence etc.

Law makers, shot callers, administrators, employers etc...to name but a few.

I don't think, as you say, that for years people have failed to process or define 'racism' correctly because of disregard for the power component. I think many people just resolve to address racism as it realistically manifests itself in their own social sphere, and for many people, this just boils down to living peacefully alongside diverse communities where 'nobody' really has any power, and 'everybody' faces social disadvantages.

These communities need an injection of "people" power if anything and any lobbying should be undertaken on that broader basis.

You say THE issue was not one of historical guilt.

Well this was 'one' issue, and it was the one I opted to focus on as a relevance within my own sphere and was worthy of voicing.

THE issue is....well.... THE issue is something politicians say on Newsnight when they want to steer things towards what concerns themselves rather than the issue raised by their inquisitor.

So THE issue is all of these aforementioned things + the power component?

With all due respect though.....not to me it isn't.

The issue for me is to treat everybody I encounter with respect and equanimity. However the power component sits, did sit, should sit etc is not something I factor into this resolve. It doesn't shape it, inform it, or in any way influence it.

Just like I won't wear historical guilt, nor will I assume sympathy or bend the knee for any one under-powered societal group over another.

So for me, a very proud 'non-racist' the two-way-street outlook remains intact because I'm no more responsible for [current] racial under-empowerment than I was for the historical abominations cited earlier.

These things [mentioned] may well serve the cause of identity politics but they are absolutely useless to a free-thinking person in framing their personal outlook towards their fellow men. If I've arrived at a healthy state of being when it comes to respect and regard for ALL men, then it's because I've steered well clear of history and politics in framing my outlook and have always resolved to take people as I find them...personally....not as a representative of a certain social demographic.

Also, the notion of racially abusing or disrespecting somebody is so alien and abhorrent to me, that the "two-way-street" element remains nought but a psychological or social principle that is never likely to swim into focus on any personal level. It's much more likely to occur within social media and create outrage and drama amongst those who seem to openly court "outrage" and "drama"..

 

« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 01:10:51 am by ...anything will do. »
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #670 on: October 26, 2019, 07:26:29 am »
Some brilliant contributions to this thread over the last few days. Fair to say most of us would have learned something.

And to add to the discussion, i really hope there is more support for James McClean over the next few weeks from the bigots attacking him for being an Irish nationalist who like many Irish people, wouldn't feel comfortable wearing a Poppy.

Disgraceful the amount of abuse and hatred directed at him every year. It should be condemned on a much greater scale.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #671 on: October 26, 2019, 07:48:41 am »
https://twitter.com/MelissaReddy_/status/1187793860166074376

Melissa's tweet on this. So the fan was informed of the historical racist context of it and was promptly mortified.

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #672 on: October 26, 2019, 09:39:54 am »


I think it all depends on the perspective you view this through. I think you have to combat racism on an individual basis through awareness and education, as I’ve stated. This will in turn reduce the levels of structural racism as these structures are made up of the individuals we are educating.

The point are punishing / adverse effects is not to say racist behaviour shouldn’t be punished, but that positive discrimination overlooks people who are disadvantaged in other ways, and ends up harming them which is equally as unfair as racial prejudice, because again it all comes down to individuals and how their lives are impacted.

The part where I referred to time as the healer is because the education and awareness takes time and whilst that means some will be disadvantaged in the meantime, you risk over-correcting or causing issues at the second and third degree that weren’t considered when solely trying to fix systemic racism.

Reducing racism is part of a wider aim of fixing all injustices in society that create an unfair environment for people to exist in. The last thing we want to do when trying to solve issues of racial discrimination is cause further unintended injustices that future generations will then have to fight against. Which is why I think the principles in society need to be at a point that we believe will hold from here until eternity, and policies should for the most part follow suit, so we can move in one direction towards a society that aligns with its principles.

I get the reasoning behind people wanting positive discrimination but they are clearly against the principles of wanting a society that wants to be free from racial discrimination. And as the adage goes, two wrongs don’t make a right. I think they come from a well-intended place that wants to see the issues solved sooner rather than later, but rash, impatient decision-making that only considers what is best for the short term and in the first degree are always prone to causing more issues than they solve.

This isn’t about maintaining the status quo, it’s about solving the issues at hand without creating new problems.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #673 on: October 26, 2019, 02:19:39 pm »
The claim that by trying to help disadvantaged people in society you are committing a 'second wrong' and that therefore we should stop because 'two wrongs don't make a right' is a strange claim in this context. It really is.

Just think about this in the abstract. A group that has dominated over another both historically and in the present. It has had a significant advantage over the other group. Does it really sound like a wrong to help out the group that has suffered? It would only sound like a wrong, and I mean no offense when saying this but it has to be said, if you think the dominant group deserves its advantages and is entitled to continue enjoying them until they feel enlightened enough to give them up voluntarily. I hope you can appreciate what that sounds like to a non-white person. Just please take a moment to think about this from such a perspective. What will they think when they are told that 'sorry, we know that society is stacked against you, but look, if we do anything to redress this problem at a structural level, then won't that just wrongly take away the advantages the dominant group enjoys? Maybe it's better if we just focus on education and maybe in a few generations we will all move past this without having to make any difficult decisions or make anybody in the dominant group feel uncomfortable'. This doesn't sound like a solution, it sounds like avoiding the problem to protect the feelings of the already dominant.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #674 on: October 26, 2019, 02:55:03 pm »
The secondary wrong I’m referring to is that policies like this have unintended consequences that weren’t thought about because the primary goal was the main focus. It’s no good removing the disadvantages from one group and layering them on a different subsection, which will mostly likely not be the current dominant section but another subsection that includes parts of the group that were already disadvantaged. It’s quite possible that implementing a system where minorities require certain representation in certain areas, even if just at the interview stage creates segregation in the process, which could ultimately lead to less being interviewed in certain areas. If 1 in 5 candidates, as is the rooney rule, are required to be a minority, then it is quite feasible you end up with applicants split into two groups, a white group that gets four picked from and a non-white group that gets one picked from, which could in many areas see less representation as a result. And what if that means it’s always the middle class non-white who is picked, leading to even less representation of lower class non-whitest

This is just an example but it is a possibility and it show the potential dangers that exist when trying to even up numbers that exist due to legacy issues.

The argument I’m making isn’t that you don’t want to bring one group out of a disadvantageous situation in case you negatively impact the currently dominant group. My argument is the result you’re looking for isn’t based around groups or identity but a net movement of people from a disadvantaged position to a neutral one, no matter the group they’re classed as. It’s a human problem where certain individuals have more barriers to success than others. We want to remove those barriers, without creating barriers for others. There are no entitled groups,  or even groups in general when we look at the end result we want.

The historic issues that still plague us today were caused by trying to achieve results based on classifications and identity. All I’m saying is the solution is not doing the reverse with the same methods but recognising the issue that these methods cause and spreading awareness about them. Teach people to spot when their unconscious may be creating barriers for others, so they can consciously override the issue, so we can move away from a world where people are grouped by irrelevant points and to do that we can’t introduce policies founded on those points.
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #675 on: October 26, 2019, 04:25:33 pm »
The claim that by trying to help disadvantaged people in society you are committing a 'second wrong' and that therefore we should stop because 'two wrongs don't make a right' is a strange claim in this context. It really is.

Just think about this in the abstract. A group that has dominated over another both historically and in the present. It has had a significant advantage over the other group. Does it really sound like a wrong to help out the group that has suffered? It would only sound like a wrong, and I mean no offense when saying this but it has to be said, if you think the dominant group deserves its advantages and is entitled to continue enjoying them until they feel enlightened enough to give them up voluntarily. I hope you can appreciate what that sounds like to a non-white person. Just please take a moment to think about this from such a perspective. What will they think when they are told that 'sorry, we know that society is stacked against you, but look, if we do anything to redress this problem at a structural level, then won't that just wrongly take away the advantages the dominant group enjoys? Maybe it's better if we just focus on education and maybe in a few generations we will all move past this without having to make any difficult decisions or make anybody in the dominant group feel uncomfortable'. This doesn't sound like a solution, it sounds like avoiding the problem to protect the feelings of the already dominant.
May I just ask if that comment, and maybe the post in general, was aimed at me? It's just that I think I'm the only one I can recall saying the words quoted, although not really in the context that they have been applied in your post. If it's not aimed at my post(s) I''l leave it, but if it is, then I'll attempt to clarify. Cheers.  :)
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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #676 on: October 26, 2019, 10:16:49 pm »
The claim that by trying to help disadvantaged people in society you are committing a 'second wrong' and that therefore we should stop because 'two wrongs don't make a right' is a strange claim in this context. It really is.

Just think about this in the abstract. A group that has dominated over another both historically and in the present. It has had a significant advantage over the other group. Does it really sound like a wrong to help out the group that has suffered? It would only sound like a wrong, and I mean no offense when saying this but it has to be said, if you think the dominant group deserves its advantages and is entitled to continue enjoying them until they feel enlightened enough to give them up voluntarily. I hope you can appreciate what that sounds like to a non-white person. Just please take a moment to think about this from such a perspective. What will they think when they are told that 'sorry, we know that society is stacked against you, but look, if we do anything to redress this problem at a structural level, then won't that just wrongly take away the advantages the dominant group enjoys? Maybe it's better if we just focus on education and maybe in a few generations we will all move past this without having to make any difficult decisions or make anybody in the dominant group feel uncomfortable'. This doesn't sound like a solution, it sounds like avoiding the problem to protect the feelings of the already dominant.

If I may add comment, even though this particular line of argument was not my own!

It would appear that you are saying:

"Positive discrimination is merely an attempt to redress balances and even up the advantages that a dominant group enjoys, and it does not behoove members of that dominant group to raise objection to this as that will indicate that they just want to cling on to their existing advantages or entitlements..."


This presupposes however, that the dominant group is "white" and that right across it's own social spectrum, every single person knows and more importantly "feels" that it currently exists in a state of advantage, privilege and entitlement. If perchance, there are any who do not "feel" that they are currently enjoying advantage, privilege or entitlement, then they simply need to be utterly assured that they DO enjoy these things, merely be dint of their skin colour and an entire tome [or two] of learned, critical analysis which irrefutably cements the facts on this subject.


So the very notion of any white person feeling remotely disadvantaged or underprivileged needs to be totally wiped away and decimated from the argument in order to make room for another 'group' who have already laid claim to, and politically monopolized these sentiments, in order to leverage the positive discrimination needed for their 'group' to make [much needed] societal inroads.

Ergo:

"How on earth can YOU feel disadvantaged or underprivileged?.....You're white!.."



Or perhaps:


"You may feel disadvantaged or underprivileged, who knows, but there's currently a queue for any kind of societal recognition on these subjects, and sorry bro...you being white currently means you're right at the back of it because we're currently setting history straight here for another group's multi-generational backlog of under-representation, and it's gonna be a while...."



So it's quite possible that positive discrimination creates a degree of tunnel vision, and not least so because it is a much needed strategy to bring racial balance within society, but it might be a bit of a stretch to say that any argument against it is merely an argument for preservation of status quo amongst the dominant group.

It's much more likely that positive discrimination is merely a very focused and "pragmatic" fix for one set of societal problems, which doesn't have any regard or sympathy for any other issues, and it's much easier to just ascribe spurious motives to any white person who has anything negative whatsoever to say about it.

YNWA

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #677 on: October 26, 2019, 11:46:03 pm »
If I may add comment, even though this particular line of argument was not my own!

It would appear that you are saying:

"Positive discrimination is merely an attempt to redress balances and even up the advantages that a dominant group enjoys, and it does not behoove members of that dominant group to raise objection to this as that will indicate that they just want to cling on to their existing advantages or entitlements..."


This presupposes however, that the dominant group is "white" and that right across it's own social spectrum, every single person knows and more importantly "feels" that it currently exists in a state of advantage, privilege and entitlement. If perchance, there are any who do not "feel" that they are currently enjoying advantage, privilege or entitlement, then they simply need to be utterly assured that they DO enjoy these things, merely be dint of their skin colour and an entire tome [or two] of learned, critical analysis which irrefutably cements the facts on this subject.


So the very notion of any white person feeling remotely disadvantaged or underprivileged needs to be totally wiped away and decimated from the argument in order to make room for another 'group' who have already laid claim to, and politically monopolized these sentiments, in order to leverage the positive discrimination needed for their 'group' to make [much needed] societal inroads.

Ergo:

"How on earth can YOU feel disadvantaged or underprivileged?.....You're white!.."



Or perhaps:


"You may feel disadvantaged or underprivileged, who knows, but there's currently a queue for any kind of societal recognition on these subjects, and sorry bro...you being white currently means you're right at the back of it because we're currently setting history straight here for another group's multi-generational backlog of under-representation, and it's gonna be a while...."



So it's quite possible that positive discrimination creates a degree of tunnel vision, and not least so because it is a much needed strategy to bring racial balance within society, but it might be a bit of a stretch to say that any argument against it is merely an argument for preservation of status quo amongst the dominant group.

It's much more likely that positive discrimination is merely a very focused and "pragmatic" fix for one set of societal problems, which doesn't have any regard or sympathy for any other issues, and it's much easier to just ascribe spurious motives to any white person who has anything negative whatsoever to say about it.

I feel like you think everyone starts off with the exact same prospects in life, would that be a fair assessment?
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

Hey Claus, fuck off.

Offline vagabond

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #678 on: October 27, 2019, 12:55:59 am »
May I just ask if that comment, and maybe the post in general, was aimed at me? It's just that I think I'm the only one I can recall saying the words quoted, although not really in the context that they have been applied in your post. If it's not aimed at my post(s) I''l leave it, but if it is, then I'll attempt to clarify. Cheers.  :)

I was responding to Mikey_LFC but please do join in the conversation. Let me add a clarification of my own: I have been trying, in this thread, to discuss the structural problem of racism that non-white people face. This is how I understand the wrong that has been, and is being, done. As Ghost Town helpfully said earlier, this is to be distinguished from prejudice at a personal level, which of course can go in any direction from any person (even against their own race sometimes!). So in this context, I think of the wrong of racism as requiring positive action, such that people who have previously enjoyed unfair advantages may have to give them up. This, to my mind, is not a second wrong. It is rather the moral thing to do.
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
---Rilke

Offline vagabond

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Re: Racism in Football
« Reply #679 on: October 27, 2019, 01:09:10 am »
If I may add comment, even though this particular line of argument was not my own!

It would appear that you are saying:

"Positive discrimination is merely an attempt to redress balances and even up the advantages that a dominant group enjoys, and it does not behoove members of that dominant group to raise objection to this as that will indicate that they just want to cling on to their existing advantages or entitlements..."


This presupposes however, that the dominant group is "white" and that right across it's own social spectrum, every single person knows and more importantly "feels" that it currently exists in a state of advantage, privilege and entitlement. If perchance, there are any who do not "feel" that they are currently enjoying advantage, privilege or entitlement, then they simply need to be utterly assured that they DO enjoy these things, merely be dint of their skin colour and an entire tome [or two] of learned, critical analysis which irrefutably cements the facts on this subject.


So the very notion of any white person feeling remotely disadvantaged or underprivileged needs to be totally wiped away and decimated from the argument in order to make room for another 'group' who have already laid claim to, and politically monopolized these sentiments, in order to leverage the positive discrimination needed for their 'group' to make [much needed] societal inroads.

Ergo:

"How on earth can YOU feel disadvantaged or underprivileged?.....You're white!.."



Or perhaps:


"You may feel disadvantaged or underprivileged, who knows, but there's currently a queue for any kind of societal recognition on these subjects, and sorry bro...you being white currently means you're right at the back of it because we're currently setting history straight here for another group's multi-generational backlog of under-representation, and it's gonna be a while...."



So it's quite possible that positive discrimination creates a degree of tunnel vision, and not least so because it is a much needed strategy to bring racial balance within society, but it might be a bit of a stretch to say that any argument against it is merely an argument for preservation of status quo amongst the dominant group.

It's much more likely that positive discrimination is merely a very focused and "pragmatic" fix for one set of societal problems, which doesn't have any regard or sympathy for any other issues, and it's much easier to just ascribe spurious motives to any white person who has anything negative whatsoever to say about it.



Honestly this strikes me as a tangential point. I've said already in this thread, a few pages back, that of course there are white folks that have hard lives. Nobody is denying this. How could they? The point however is that whatever hardships they face, they don't have to face any on the basis of their race.
No matter how hard a white person's life is, they get to go through life where in their childhood all the heroes on tv had the same face as them. They never suffered the psychological trauma of being a mere token. They got to go through their life without feeling unsafe around the police. That was another psychological trauma they never had to face. They were able to get careers and mortgages at a higher rate than equally qualified non-white people. That was more security they had that non-white people didn't. This are genuine phenomena that exist in our world. And of course there are exceptions, but we are talking about the general trends of society.
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
and walks outdoors, and keeps on walking,
because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
---Rilke