Author Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles  (Read 169422 times)

Offline Red_Rich

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1560 on: January 16, 2018, 03:30:27 pm »
With Oblak/Alisson in goal and Virgil on the pitch we don’t concede goals number 1 and 3 against City. Fact.
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Offline Medellin

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1561 on: January 16, 2018, 03:37:24 pm »
Worse than Lovren?

Complete bollocks

Lovren has taken most of his criticism whilst at LCB,stick Matip there we'd probably get a similar result.
I'm not saying Lovren is a better player than Matip but he fares much better at RCB.
When rotated JK should keep Lovren at RCB.
Matip RCB vs Lovren LCB..no argument.
Matip RCB vs Lovren RCB there isnt a million miles between them like some think.
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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1562 on: January 16, 2018, 03:39:21 pm »
Wouldn't say it's for sure at all. Matip probably played because Klopp expected Everton to sit deep.

Matip is arguably the worst of our centre half options!

 ???
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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1563 on: January 16, 2018, 03:40:16 pm »
Lovren has taken most of his criticism whilst at LCB,stick Matip there we'd probably get a similar result.
I'm not saying Lovren is a better player than Matip but he fares much better at RCB.
When rotated JK should keep Lovren at RCB.
Matip RCB vs Lovren LCB..no argument.
Matip RCB vs Lovren RCB there isnt a million miles between them like some think.

You do realise the only time Lovren has ever played rcb is when he played with Sakho right?
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Offline dotheoffski

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1564 on: January 16, 2018, 03:43:58 pm »
The best goalkeepers sometimes win you games, I have not seen this once this season from Mignolet.  As for Karius, I am not sure but I always remember De Gea's first season and how awful he was, look at him now.

As for Gomez, some critical comments on him on the anfield wrap thread, but it's so easy to be critical and people forget the brilliance sometimes of the attacking players.  I especially thought that of the Arsenal goal, Sanchez position,  run, timing etc was incredible and all it took was for Gomez to lose sight of him for 1 second.  I can hardly blame him for that.  I think he is fantastic and a great asset in the back 4.  I like Clyne but Gomez is a far more rounded player.

On the other side even though Moreno has come on leaps and bounds and his shear enthusiasm is a joy to watch at times, he is still a poor defender who often gets away with awful decision making.  He goes to ground far to much, gets tunnel vision on the ball rather than the man.  To highlight this was Andy Robertson's clearing header against Everton where he got headbutted but still cleared the danger.  I would argue Moreno would not even be in that position, or fail to clear.  It is no surprise to me that the recent run of games has come with a left back who instinctively knows how to defend.

Offline Medellin

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1565 on: January 16, 2018, 03:54:28 pm »
You do realise the only time Lovren has ever played rcb is when he played with Sakho right?

I do realise the opposite..Lovren has partnered Klavan numerous times this season.
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Offline KurtVerbose

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1566 on: January 16, 2018, 04:22:25 pm »
On the goalkeepers it seems pretty clear that Jürgen has decided Simon isn't the long term solution. The only question mark is - is Loris a long term solution?

Only way to find out is play him and then make a decision in the summer.
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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1567 on: January 16, 2018, 04:30:41 pm »
With Oblak/Alisson in goal and Virgil on the pitch we don’t concede goals number 1 and 3 against City. Fact.

All hypothetical. VVD was injured as far as I know. Who knows what would have happened.

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1568 on: January 16, 2018, 04:42:08 pm »
My take on our GK situation.

The difference between the two is that Mignolet simply can't do what we want from a keeper. Whereas Karius might be able to, but simply hasn't so far.

Currently Mignolet is better than Karius. He saves Sane's shot for me.

But, we know all there is to know about Mignolet. Good, bad or indifferent. This is his level. Adequate to win most games. But more likely to turn a win into a draw/loss than to make a match winning save. His movement off the line and distribution are not good enough. His feet are so slow. A number of times there are balls where I expect him to reach first, that he turns into 50/50's or narrowly wins the race but gives the opposition possession deep in our half and adds unnecessary pressure on the defence.

When Karius was bought I thought we were buying a confident keeper who would be on the front foot, sweeping up behind the defence, recycling possession and starting attacks with his quick distribution. Not the finished article by any means, but a keeper who was trying to do the right things.

Some people have already seen enough to decide he's not good enough now, and he never will be in the future. On the first point you'll get no argument from me or anyone else, he's clearly not been good enough. That's why Klopp had to go back to Mignolet.

On the second point I'm not so sure. I believe Karius at his best could be good enough. The problem for those of us who haven't completely written him off yet is that there is only one way to be sure. That's a consistent run of games being tested against all types of opposition in various situations.

I think Klopp is thinking along the same lines. He's unlikely to get a top quality keeper before the summer. So he either sticks with Mignolet, who he has already decided isn't good enough, or plays Karius.

Karius has until the end of the season to prove to Klopp that he can show those attributes that convinced Klopp to buy him in the first place. It's a risk that, at best, provides us with a solid No.1 who fits Klopp's system. But at worst, could cost us a champions league spot.

Offline ManiacKop

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1569 on: January 16, 2018, 04:45:17 pm »
Plus, be interesting to see how Karius plays with VD ahead of him.
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Offline MerseysideBrum

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1570 on: January 16, 2018, 05:29:36 pm »
Still think we need another CB. Neither Lovren nor Matip are 1st team players from what I've seen this season (and Lovren for god knows how long)
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Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1571 on: January 16, 2018, 06:28:42 pm »
Still think we need another CB. Neither Lovren nor Matip are 1st team players from what I've seen this season (and Lovren for god knows how long)
I think so, too, but I think the following are greater priorities:
1. GK
2. #6
3. Coutinho replacement
4. High quality forward to rotate with the other three.

Along with that, we need to hand over £55-60m for Keita, so I think we may not be in the market for another CB or, say, a top LB this summer. Changing too much of the team at once might be risky, and we also would need to balance the books, so it depends what we spend on the above players.

I do agree that we should look to upgrade on Matip/Lovren and probably sell one out of Matip/Lovren/Klavan.

Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1572 on: January 16, 2018, 06:53:08 pm »
I think so, too, but I think the following are greater priorities:
1. GK
2. #6
3. Coutinho replacement
4. High quality forward to rotate with the other three.

Along with that, we need to hand over £55-60m for Keita, so I think we may not be in the market for another CB or, say, a top LB this summer. Changing too much of the team at once might be risky, and we also would need to balance the books, so it depends what we spend on the above players.

I do agree that we should look to upgrade on Matip/Lovren and probably sell one out of Matip/Lovren/Klavan.

Think you are expecting too much as all of the above could mean a change to 4 starting positions. I dont see Klopp doing that at this point as 2 even 3 changes would be a lot. We will see as ideally I like to see GK and Keita coming in plus there may be additions to the squad. #6 slot (holding / defensive) option seems to be low on Jurgens agenda as he left the only one we had (Lucas) go for free.
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Offline stevensr123

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1573 on: January 16, 2018, 07:10:28 pm »
Think you are expecting too much as all of the above could mean a change to 4 starting positions. I dont see Klopp doing that at this point as 2 even 3 changes would be a lot. We will see as ideally I like to see GK and Keita coming in plus there may be additions to the squad. #6 slot (holding / defensive) option seems to be low on Jurgens agenda as he left the only one we had (Lucas) go for free.
With mignolet looking like he is off soon, can maybe going, and coutinho gone and sturridge likely to leave as well, we are gonna need 4+ signings regardless.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1574 on: January 16, 2018, 07:23:09 pm »
With mignolet looking like he is off soon, can maybe going, and coutinho gone and sturridge likely to leave as well, we are gonna need 4+ signings regardless.

I said 4 starting positions.....Can is back up to Henderson, Sturridge likewise so if they leave then i hope their squad duties can be filled by new signings as I do expect 4 - 5 purchases with 2 or 3 starting positions filled from those.
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Offline Chalky Boots

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1575 on: January 16, 2018, 10:36:46 pm »
Lovren has taken most of his criticism whilst at LCB,stick Matip there we'd probably get a similar result.
I'm not saying Lovren is a better player than Matip but he fares much better at RCB.
When rotated JK should keep Lovren at RCB.
Matip RCB vs Lovren LCB..no argument.
Matip RCB vs Lovren RCB there isnt a million miles between them like some think.


Defensively, possibly but the difference is made when you factor in how much better Matip is on the ball than Lovren. It's night and day between them, Joel is also capable of recovering from his mistakes and doesn't lose his head anything like as bad as Lovren.

If Matip forms a consistent partnership with Van Dijk there's no need to get another starting defender for me.

Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1576 on: January 17, 2018, 01:13:53 am »
Plus, be interesting to see how Karius plays with VD ahead of him.

Van Dijk can't make someone save shots at their near post, though.
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Offline gjr1

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1577 on: January 17, 2018, 01:34:19 am »
As much as you like to support the players we have the fact that Mignolet is 'considering his future' is music to my ears!
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Offline Giono

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1578 on: January 17, 2018, 02:32:29 am »
On the other side even though Moreno has come on leaps and bounds and his shear enthusiasm is a joy to watch at times, he is still a poor defender who often gets away with awful decision making.  He goes to ground far to much, gets tunnel vision on the ball rather than the man.  To highlight this was Andy Robertson's clearing header against Everton where he got headbutted but still cleared the danger.  I would argue Moreno would not even be in that position, or fail to clear.  It is no surprise to me that the recent run of games has come with a left back who instinctively knows how to defend.

Is that what earned Moreno a call up to the Spanish national team this season? :)

That is not how Moreno has been playing this season. Not at all. He has been fantastic this season. The only exception is the Sevilla match a few days after the birth of his son played in his hometown against his old club.

Why is it always that people who like player A feel they have to dump all over player B. It stinks like politics, not sports and not support.

We are blessed having 2 effective left wingbacks this season. Robertson and Moreno. Not a converted right-footed midfielder. Not a convereted right-footed teenage CD. Not a mediocre right-footed fullback local lad that plays with heart.
 


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Offline Redcap

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1579 on: January 17, 2018, 05:32:15 am »
Is that what earned Moreno a call up to the Spanish national team this season? :)

That is not how Moreno has been playing this season. Not at all. He has been fantastic this season. The only exception is the Sevilla match a few days after the birth of his son played in his hometown against his old club.

Why is it always that people who like player A feel they have to dump all over player B. It stinks like politics, not sports and not support.

We are blessed having 2 effective left wingbacks this season. Robertson and Moreno. Not a converted right-footed midfielder. Not a convereted right-footed teenage CD. Not a mediocre right-footed fullback local lad that plays with heart.
 




Is the correct answer.

It's like people can't bear the thought that we might have two good leftbacks instead of one.

Offline Medellin

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1580 on: January 17, 2018, 07:51:10 am »
Defensively, possibly but the difference is made when you factor in how much better Matip is on the ball than Lovren. It's night and day between them, Joel is also capable of recovering from his mistakes and doesn't lose his head anything like as bad as Lovren.

If Matip forms a consistent partnership with Van Dijk there's no need to get another starting defender for me.

Can't argue with that mate,there are other things to factor too which would be debatable amongst some..whether Lovren needs to be a tad more passive where Matip needs to be that bit more aggressive,who is better in the air..injuries seem to dog Matip or maybe that just seems to be the case.
This is only a RCB comparison by the way,would be really interesting to see stats dug out for both there since JK has arrived,pretty sure Lovren has played about x20 there.
Matip does take that spot in my first 11 selection,but like i said..Lovren i dont think is a million miles away from that.
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Offline Fluke

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1581 on: January 21, 2018, 03:22:59 pm »
Is that what earned Moreno a call up to the Spanish national team this season? :)

That is not how Moreno has been playing this season. Not at all. He has been fantastic this season. The only exception is the Sevilla match a few days after the birth of his son played in his hometown against his old club.

Why is it always that people who like player A feel they have to dump all over player B. It stinks like politics, not sports and not support.

We are blessed having 2 effective left wingbacks this season. Robertson and Moreno. Not a converted right-footed midfielder. Not a convereted right-footed teenage CD. Not a mediocre right-footed fullback local lad that plays with heart.
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Offline MNAA

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1582 on: October 25, 2018, 10:34:46 am »
Bumping this. Last posting Jan 21 2018? Not even a month after Van Dijk came on board? Unbelieveable. We’re so so solid now that I believe we’re starting to take clean sheet for granted. Brilliant!
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Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1583 on: October 25, 2018, 10:55:38 am »
20 clean sheets in our last 38 league games. That hadn’t happened since a stretch which ended with a 4-0 win over Stoke City in August 2009.

25 goals conceded in our last 38 league games. That's the best record in the PL in this period, and last matched by Liverpool in a stretch ending in a 4-0 win over Blackburn in April 2009.

No league goals conceded in the last 841 minutes at Anfield.

Not bad, is it?

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1584 on: October 25, 2018, 11:01:29 am »
It's scary to think it'll potentially get even better with Fabinho surely cementing his place as DM in the near future.

A natural DM that seems truly disruptive and highly intelligent in how he reads opposition play (not just yesterday but overall). A good keeper, world-class defender, sensible fullbacks and a DM that's tough to play against. Potentially a sight to behold.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1585 on: October 25, 2018, 11:21:19 am »
20 clean sheets in our last 38 league games. That hadn’t happened since a stretch which ended with a 4-0 win over Stoke City in August 2009.

25 goals conceded in our last 38 league games. That's the best record in the PL in this period, and last matched by Liverpool in a stretch ending in a 4-0 win over Blackburn in April 2009.

No league goals conceded in the last 841 minutes at Anfield.

Not bad, is it?
Those are some incredible stats. How many have we conceded in those 38 games?

The defence was already improving before we signed VVD, but the consistency that him and Robertson have brought to the back line can't be underestimated. TAA, Gomex, Lovren, VVD, Robertson and Becker are as good a group as any in the league.

People used to stare enviously towards the Spurs defence but not any more.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 11:27:05 am by Funky_Gibbons »
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Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1586 on: October 25, 2018, 11:30:40 am »
Those are some incredible stats. How many have we conceded in those 38 games?

Read the post again  ;)

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1587 on: October 25, 2018, 11:32:01 am »
Read the post again  ;)
Sorry I missed that  :-[

Conceded 25 goals in 18, games, that's nearly 1.4 per game, we need to improve that..
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Offline MNAA

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1588 on: October 25, 2018, 11:34:47 am »
People used to stare enviously towards the Spurs defence but not any more.
Agree. Not anymore. We are now the envy. We are the gold standard. Klopp had blown all doubters out of water. A Becker and VV Dijk cost us a lot money but they’re the type of spendings that turn pretenders to true challengers. For the returns that we are getting, they’re bargains. And TAA, J Gomez and A Robertson cost us almost next to nothing in today’s transfer money. Amazing!
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1589 on: October 25, 2018, 11:46:02 am »
Sorry I missed that  :-[

Conceded 25 goals in 18, games, that's nearly 1.4 per game, we need to improve that..

A world apart from the Rodgers era when we would generally concede either zero or 2/3 goals and nothing in between.

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1590 on: October 25, 2018, 11:46:37 am »
Agree. Not anymore. We are now the envy. We are the gold standard. Klopp had blown all doubters out of water. A Becker and VV Dijk cost us a lot money but they’re the type of spendings that turn pretenders to true challengers. For the returns that we are getting, they’re bargains. And TAA, J Gomez and A Robertson cost us almost next to nothing in today’s transfer money. Amazing!

Amazing for sure, makes me all happy inside reading stuff like that considering where we were not too long ago.

Offline sinnermichael

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1591 on: October 25, 2018, 11:47:01 am »
Given Cardiff's directness, height and physicality, I reckon we'll see Gomez at right back again on Saturday with Lovren coming in and it's like nothing has changed. Says it all really.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1592 on: October 25, 2018, 12:16:41 pm »
I’m old enough to remember when a  ton of posters on here were convinced our bad defensive record was due to our midfield and the lack of a proper dm ......

VVD, Alisson, a more conservative use of our fullbacks and better organization at set pieces have all improved  us defensively ....however the biggest single personnel difference remains simply not having Mignolet in the team

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1593 on: October 25, 2018, 12:17:33 pm »
A world apart from the Rodgers era when we would generally concede either zero or 2/3 goals and nothing in between.

A world apart from Klopps first 18 months too

Offline Yiannis

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1594 on: October 25, 2018, 12:25:56 pm »
I’m old enough to remember when a  ton of posters on here were convinced our bad defensive record was due to our midfield and the lack of a proper dm ......

VVD, Alisson, a more conservative use of our fullbacks and better organization at set pieces have all improved  us defensively ....however the biggest single personnel difference remains simply not having Mignolet in the team

LFCTV or the official LFC account posted on Twitter a clip with some of our best PL away wins and in it there was the Norwich one (4-5). Some of the goals conceded in that game...Christ.
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Offline suede lady

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1595 on: October 25, 2018, 12:31:27 pm »
I think so, too, but I think the following are greater priorities:
1. GK (Allison)
2. #6 (Fabinho)
3. Coutinho replacement (Fekir)
4. High quality forward to rotate with the other three. (Shaquiri)

Along with that, we need to hand over £55-60m for Keita, so I think we may not be in the market for another CB or, say, a top LB this summer. Changing too much of the team at once might be risky, and we also would need to balance the books, so it depends what we spend on the above players.

I do agree that we should look to upgrade on Matip/Lovren (Gomez) and probably sell one out of Matip/Lovren/Klavan.

You were spot on!  :) Only Fekir falling through.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1596 on: October 25, 2018, 12:31:44 pm »
A world apart from the Rodgers era when we would generally concede either zero or 2/3 goals and nothing in between.
To be fair, up until that Spurs game, Klopp's record was almost identical to Rodgers for goals conceded per game. The tactical switch he's made since that game, as well as the better personnel, have been unbelievable and taken us to another level.

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Offline Giono

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1597 on: October 26, 2018, 10:20:03 am »
Bumping this. Last posting Jan 21 2018? Not even a month after Van Dijk came on board? Unbelieveable. We’re so so solid now that I believe we’re starting to take clean sheet for granted. Brilliant!

Good bump. Our defence as a unit is performing so well.

It has been said that sometimes teams can be beaten in the tunnel before the match. I think a fearsome defence is what seals that deal. Opponents can see a good offence and think it is inevitable we score, but still see opportunity. Now they see a defence and think, 'how are we going to break through that wall". Opposing managers can spend their training their squads to defend agains our front three, but can they give their squad added confidence that they can break down our system?

"I am a great believer in luck and the harder I work the more of it I have." Stephen Leacock

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1598 on: October 26, 2018, 10:31:16 am »
A world apart from Klopps first 18 months too

To be fair, up until that Spurs game, Klopp's record was almost identical to Rodgers for goals conceded per game. The tactical switch he's made since that game, as well as the better personnel, have been unbelievable and taken us to another level.

Yeah, I meant to say "and the start of Klopp's reign" as well. However I've always felt we were a little more solid under Klopp. Probably more likely to keep a clean sheet under Rodgers, but less likely to concede 2's, 3's and 4's under Klopp, if that makes sense. I recall us drawing 1-1 a lot in Klopp's first season.

Offline Vinay

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1599 on: October 26, 2018, 10:31:25 am »
I think so, too, but I think the following are greater priorities:
1. GK
2. #6
3. Coutinho replacement
4. High quality forward to rotate with the other three.

Along with that, we need to hand over £55-60m for Keita, so I think we may not be in the market for another CB or, say, a top LB this summer. Changing too much of the team at once might be risky, and we also would need to balance the books, so it depends what we spend on the above players.

I do agree that we should look to upgrade on Matip/Lovren and probably sell one out of Matip/Lovren/Klavan.
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