Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[Zimagic]

Are we keeping score of clear errors / missed decisions by VAR this season? They are already on -2 after one game if so.

[BoRed]

Are we keeping score of clear errors / missed decisions by VAR this season? They are already on -2 after one game if so.

Andy's objective analysis is over here: https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=348997

The first game of La Liga last night was worse, though. They're still consistently giving penalties for players breathing in each other's vicinity, and a player was sent off after being fouled himself because the other guy screamed louder (second yellow, so I guess VAR couldn't get involved). I think the ref was one of those who got sent home early from the Euros.

[Phil M]

Are we keeping score of clear errors / missed decisions by VAR this season? They are already on -2 after one game if so.

What were the two incidents? The possible foul on the keeper for Bees 2nd and?

[Zimagic]

What were the two incidents? The possible foul on the keeper for Bees 2nd and?

Foul on Balogun in the first half.

[ChrisLFCKOP]

Confused is VAR not being used this year?

Didn't give Norwich a bullshit pen tonight, must be broken...

[Morgana]

Confused is VAR not being used this year?

Didn't give Norwich a bullshit pen tonight, must be broken...

Let's just enjoy its invisibility / competence while it lasts. It's bound to go thermonuclear soon enough.

[kopite77]

Let's just enjoy its invisibility / competence while it lasts. It's bound to go thermonuclear soon enough.

Yes, as soon as someone goes within 30 feet of Jack Grealish and he falls over and gets a penalty!

[MBL?]

If it works as it’s supposed to with regards to how contact should be reffed around the pitch we will steam roll most teams. The amount of times fouls were given against us last season for little contact when pressing was a joke.

[4pool]

If it works as it’s supposed to with regards to how contact should be reffed around the pitch we will steam roll most teams. The amount of times fouls were given against us last season for little contact when pressing was a joke.

Ah..we'll be well on a roll with the new Ref guidelines.

In fact we built up a bit of a bank after match day 1.

Norwich-- whistled for 4 fouls

Liverpool-- whistled for 14 fouls

[Phil M]

Foul on Balogun in the first half.

Oh right, missed that, was it fairly clear?

[Elzar]

That Fernandes one that wasn't given offside, that's the exact kind of call everyone would be fuming about last season when it ruled his kneecap was off.

[El Lobo]

[smicer07]

VaR at it again.

[Red-Soldier]

That Fernandes one that wasn't given offside, that's the exact kind of call everyone would be fuming about last season when it ruled his kneecap was off.

No lines for that one, but of course they are out again today!

VAR is just another tool to fuck us over.

[Agent99]

Thicker lines have done fuck all then.

[Rush 82]

Thicker lines have done fuck all then.

was clearly off - didn't really need the lines imo

[wampa1]

I'm sure they said they weren't using two lines this season, just one thick one?

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Not arsed about the call as Mo was close to off - if not totally offside.

But not enamoured with the technology, and the process - too many times errors have been steamrolled and swept under the carpet by the media and FA

[oojason]

[farawayred]

Mo was offside, I thought so when i saw it live

[lamonti]

that looked off, was off. close but off.

[lamonti]

More interesting was the free for all aspect of the reffing

[El Lobo]

Honestly just fuck showing the lines if you can’t get them right. He was off but the lines have fuck all relevance to any body parts on either defender or attacker, just absolutely random

[lamonti]

Dotted line drawn down from the Burnley player's bum, Salah's toe.

Have more of a problem with them flagging Salah off when he wasn't in the second half.

[farawayred]

Dotted line drawn down from the Burnley player's bum, Salah's toe.

Have more of a problem with them flagging Salah off when he wasn't in the second half.

Why are you looking for a calf under a bull? It was offside however you draw the lines. Nothing to complain here.

[Avens]

Perfect illustration of the bigger issue that nobody acknowledges - how does anyone know that this is the moment the ball is played. Two posters have looked at that image and said, "yep, he's off" which he definitely looks in that image. Where's the ball though? Is this the split second the ball has been played by Elliot? In this image, we can't even see the ball - so how have you determined that the offside is the correct call?

Let's presume though, that VAR can see the ball from another angle. You still can't tell if this is the moment the ball is played because the camera works at 24 frames a second, it takes less that a 24th of a second for the ball to leave the player's foot.

If the frame before this one had been chosen, Mo would've been deemed onside and nobody would've complained - but the same issue prevails. That's why when people say "well offside is a matter of fact" they're wrong, it's a matter of luck. Which frame has been chosen will determine whether or not the player is seen as onside.

[carling]

Perfect illustration of the bigger issue that nobody acknowledges - how does anyone know that this is the moment the ball is played. Two posters have looked at that image and said, "yep, he's off" which he definitely looks in that image. Where's the ball though? Is this the split second the ball has been played by Elliot? In this image, we can't even see the ball - so how have you determined that the offside is the correct call?

Let's presume though, that VAR can see the ball from another angle. You still can't tell if this is the moment the ball is played because the camera works at 24 frames a second, it takes less that a 24th of a second for the ball to leave the player's foot.

If the frame before this one had been chosen, Mo would've been deemed onside and nobody would've complained - but the same issue prevails. That's why when people say "well offside is a matter of fact" they're wrong, it's a matter of luck. Which frame has been chosen will determine whether or not the player is seen as onside.

100%.  It's completely up to the guy freezing the frame whether this is onside or not.  Plenty of frames to choose from where the ball will look like it's just leaving Elliot's foot - some of them will show speedy gonzalez Mo onside, some will show him offside.  The second they see one frame where the player is onside, the goal should stand.

I'm very much for VAR, but goals like this being ruled out undermines the whole thing.

[WillG.LFC]

The alternative is literally guessing

[moondog]

The alternative is literally guessing

Or the linesman doing what they have for 100 years and getting them >90% correct .

[nayia2002]

The Newcastle "offside" was a fucking piss take aswell today

[Avens]

The alternative is literally guessing

That's not the alternative, it's the current reality. VAR is guessing when the ball has left the player's foot, as it's impossible to see it with any certainty.

A better alternative, if VAR has to be used, is a rolling motion type of situation. Draw the lines, move through the 10 frames or so which could be the "moment" the ball is played, and if the lines touch at any point, benefit goes to the attacker.

Peter Drury in commentary said after Salah's disallowed goal, "there is no doubt, offside is a matter of fact." The problem is nobody that matters in terms of decision making, or mainstream influence seems to have identified this as a problem at all, so there's no chance of it changing any time soon.

[farawayred]

The Newcastle "offside" was a fucking piss take aswell today

The issue for me is consistency across all games. If the Newcastle offside was given, nothing was done for City's first goal; "VAR check complete" without showing lines. To my eyes, those look identical margins.

As for Salah's disallowed goal, it would have liley been flagged pre-VAR, and would have been certainly disallowed last season. I have no issue with this decision.

[Avens]

The issue for me is consistency across all games. If the Newcastle offside was given, nothing was done for City's first goal; "VAR check complete" without showing lines. To my eyes, those look identical margins.

As for Salah's disallowed goal, it would have liley been flagged pre-VAR, and would have been certainly disallowed last season. I have no issue with this decision.

What if they chose the frame before the one they did? Salah would've been on and we'd be saying, yep right decision.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting any type of conspiracy here, just that it's literally impossible to know which frame is the one that the lines should be drawn on and offside should be determined by. We've benefitted from it ourselves (Spurs game last season, Chelsea the season before). Tight offsides are not the exact black and white decision they're made out to be.

[Fromola]

What if they chose the frame before the one they did? Salah would've been on and we'd be saying, yep right decision.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting any type of conspiracy here, just that it's literally impossible to know which frame is the one that the lines should be drawn on and offside should be determined by. We've benefitted from it ourselves (Spurs game last season, Chelsea the season before). Tight offsides are not the exact black and white decision they're made out to be.

It's bollocks. We accept the new rule change because it'll stop some of the more ridiculous ones getting chalked off, but it's still ruling out goals nobody would think twice about before VAR, as it's broadly level. It should be clear from one replay, if it needs lines drawn in the first place the decision should be left alone.

[Jm55]

It's bollocks. We accept the new rule change because it'll stop some of the more ridiculous ones getting chalked off, but it's still ruling out goals nobody would think twice about before VAR, as it's broadly level. It should be clear from one replay, if it needs lines drawn in the first place the decision should be left alone.

I’ve always said this and I’m fairly sure it’s the way that it will end up going, I think it’s basically the way that it was used in the Euros for example.

You can make the point that without VAR it gets flagged, which maybe true, and if it it does a few will moan about it but will broadly accept it as the linesman’s call, but the fact is it didn’t get flagged and should therefore have stood as it was nowhere near enough offside to go against what was decided on the pitch (of course, if you implement the rule whereby the onfield decision stands then you may well end up seeing more flags go up so the point is somewhat circular.)

What I will say is that at least it was done quickly which was an improvement from previous seasons.

[Wghennessy]

Your VAR issues today shouldnt be a goal that was clearly offside. It should be Ashley Barnes with his WWE impression on Matip. What a fucking joke that was.


https://twitter.com/biggies_maiis/status/1429184783700135953?s=21

What the fuck is this? We literally have a referee watching replays and he gets away with a triple H special?

[Wghennessy]

Ahh I see it ignored Walker on Rashica aswell. Conveniently ignored by MOTD and the like.

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

Has anyone got a capture of the Fernandez offside against Leeds with the lines. That looked a pretty similar level of offside to Mo's. If there is a specific guideline they are following (on MOTD last night night they suggested that if the lines were overlapping, then it's considered on, for example, and the lines being thicker to account for error margin) then I am happy with that.

I can't shake the feeling that it's more like a classic FA/PGMOL thing, whereby in a high profile Man Utd game they're like "look, we didn't bother drawing the lines cos it was so close, see how we've changed, aren't we great", then the very next weekend the lines come out for all the other teams.

Like when they resolved Man U and Chelsea players hounding referees by sending Masch off for swearing at the ref at Old Trafford, then never did it again. Or when they decided that you can't touch the player while making a tackle so as to give Shef Utd a pen against Fabinho, a rule that has literally never been seen again. Or  when a pass through to an offside player deflects off a defenders foot so is deemed onside, for literally one match (Kane at Anfield).

If it's a sensible rule applied consistently, then I'm all for it. If it's a shit rule applied consistently, then its shit. If it's a sensible rule applied inconsistently, then what's the point of VAR?

[Crimson]

Your VAR issues today shouldnt be a goal that was clearly offside. It should be Ashley Barnes with his WWE impression on Matip. What a fucking joke that was.


https://twitter.com/biggies_maiis/status/1429184783700135953?s=21

What the fuck is this? We literally have a referee watching replays and he gets away with a triple H special?

Or what about Jota being thrown to the ground? Was there a card all game?

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

Or what about Jota being thrown to the ground? Was there a card all game?

Out of interest, why does the official Liverpool twitter feed, or anyone official attached to the club, forward that video to the MOTD twitter feed. The way it's been left, and will be left, is that Klopp is a paranoid twat manager, trying to play mind games, and nothing untoward was done by Burnley. This is the sort of unaccountable bollocks that, in other parts of life, is driving this country into the ground and costing thousands of lives. Why do people in positions of strength/power not do anything.

If I was Klopp watching MOTD last night, I'd be personally sending videos of that shit to their twitter feed and demanding a public reply, and threatening to take them to court for the "mind games" slander. Tossers