Topic: The RAWK Film Thread

[Armand9]

Jurassic World Dominion

daft and terrible

when you think back to the original film, which i found interesting and fun and the dino's were stellar, it's been on the slide ever since, pity cos im sure there's more they could've done with it apart from repeating the same formula continually (with ever decreasing quality)

[TipTopKop]

I think the whole Jurassic thing couldn't kick on once the dino's were revealed in the 1st one. That initial 'wow' moment and how to take it all in was amazing at the time.

After that, what where they going to do? go bigger, and bigger but by now we've seen it before.

Furthermore, if this was somehow set in older times it would have made for a more interesting challenge.

Nowadays with modern technology/weapons there's always the thought in the back of your mind to say "How far will this go? just nuke the lot of them" or use one of the many advanced weapons at our disposal, so to me, it takes away the dramatic tension of it all.

[[new username under construction]]

If they had just included Doug McClure then the series would have been spectacular

[TipTopKop]

I'd even take Troy McClure!

[bradders1011]

Make the dinosaurs sentient and do a Planet Of The Apes with them.

Then have Troy McClure star in the musical.

[El Lobo]

I'm pretty sure one of the pitches for maybe Jurassic World was to have talking dinosaurs.

Jurassic World I actually thought was not too bad, better than JP3 anyway even if it was literally just a reboot of what happened in the first. But there's only so many ways you can get a group of people stranded somewhere with loose dinosaurs before it gets too silly (even for a film about dinosaurs). I'm surprised actually that they've never done a prequel, or even a prequel trilogy. 'Dawn of Jurassic Park' or something. There's a lot of backstory with Hammond, Wu, Nedry, Dodgson etc about how they even got to the point of breeding dinosaurs.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'm pretty sure one of the pitches for maybe Jurassic World was to have talking dinosaurs.

Jurassic World I actually thought was not too bad, better than JP3 anyway even if it was literally just a reboot of what happened in the first. But there's only so many ways you can get a group of people stranded somewhere with loose dinosaurs before it gets too silly (even for a film about dinosaurs). I'm surprised actually that they've never done a prequel, or even a prequel trilogy. 'Dawn of Jurassic Park' or something. There's a lot of backstory with Hammond, Wu, Nedry, Dodgson etc about how they even got to the point of breeding dinosaurs.

I'm sure half of them on the transfer thread are talking dinosaurs.

[Armand9]

I think the whole Jurassic thing couldn't kick on once the dino's were revealed in the 1st one. That initial 'wow' moment and how to take it all in was amazing at the time.

After that, what where they going to do? go bigger, and bigger but by now we've seen it before.

Furthermore, if this was somehow set in older times it would have made for a more interesting challenge.

Nowadays with modern technology/weapons there's always the thought in the back of your mind to say "How far will this go? just nuke the lot of them" or use one of the many advanced weapons at our disposal, so to me, it takes away the dramatic tension of it all.

that was my point

are we saying you can't have an interesting dinosaur movie once dino's have been seen? of course not

it's down to the writing, crafting an interesting story

you could apply the same principle to any movie that has 'monsters' - just cos we've seen the vampire we can't have an interesting movie after the fact?

this is what i mean when i often talk about lazy story writing, it's not just lazy in the sense of cutting corners so shit doesn't make a lot of sense (which does happen a lot), it's actually getting writers of quality who can create an interesting story in the first place

[Agent99]

I'm pretty sure one of the pitches for maybe Jurassic World was to have talking dinosaurs.

[Macphisto80]

that was my point

are we saying you can't have an interesting dinosaur movie once dino's have been seen? of course not

it's down to the writing, crafting an interesting story

you could apply the same principle to any movie that has 'monsters' - just cos we've seen the vampire we can't have an interesting movie after the fact?

this is what i mean when i often talk about lazy story writing, it's not just lazy in the sense of cutting corners so shit doesn't make a lot of sense (which does happen a lot), it's actually getting writers of quality who can create an interesting story in the first place

I would personally blame audiences more than writers.

[Armand9]

unless the script has been butchered by someone else (it happens), i will always blame the writer for a poor script (and conversely praise them for a good one) - it's their work

in what sense are you blaming the audience?

[Macphisto80]

unless the script has been butchered by someone else (it happens), i will always blame the writer for a poor script (and conversely praise them for a good one) - it's their work

in what sense are you blaming the audience?

They produce sequels based off of success of a franchise. Not always, but its usually the norm. If audiences are going to watch a popcorn show, they expect action aplenty and their brains just go limp. I mean, how else can you explain shite like Transformers and Fast and Furious being on what seems like a conveyor belt for the past 15 years or so. They're awful in the writing department, but obviously audiences enjoy them. Now, if you were to take Jurassic Park and maybe slow it down a lot, do what El Lobo suggests and have some interesting back story about the science behind the creation of the park and the dinosaurs, invariably meaning less action and very little dino action, then it wouldn't do nearly as well. The only thing that would prop it up would be the franchise name. People go with what they know. Just look at the Terminator and Aliens series now. They're absolute dogshit, but they keep trying. I seriously doubt a film like the original Alien or Jurassic park would do well at all if they were to be released today for the first time. In summery, having an amazing script is a fantastic thing for people who love slow paced and intelligent story telling. But when it comes to the mainstream modern cinema, it doesn't go down too well. At least not when the film costs about half a billion to make.

[Armand9]

i get your point, it's what i suspected you were suggesting, i just wanted to make sure

i agree that is generally the case with franchise movies

what i disagree with, is that they have to be that way

Aliens is a classic example of what TipTopKop pointed out earlier, yet i'd argue it's a great movie. At the time it's what we were expecting from Cameron - more/bigger/badder aliens - but it had a good script, great characters/cast and a good storyline. I prefer Alien but Aliens is no franchise cash-in imo, Cameron made a fucking good movie.

Similarly, Terminator, all the above applies to that movie too and again I prefer Terminator but the sequel is a quality movie with a good script generally (don't get me started on the end scene  ), good characters/cast, well made.

So my point is just because something is a sequel (or further seasons in TV) is not an excuse for poor writing and badly made films/shows - you can even follow up with bigger badder more-more-more if that's what the studio is calling for, but you can still make a good movie. And im not going to blame the audience if it's not.

Take Picard, season 2 especially - i dont blame trekkies for that, that is 100% on the fuckers that made it. They went with a terrible script in every way possible and did an incredibly shoddy job cutting corners all over the place till it became laughable.

Cos im not in total agreement either that audiences wouldn't take a more 'cerebral', for want of a better expression, film for something like Jurassic - you dont even have to take out the presence of the dino's, you just need a good fucking script, an interesting story.

My whole gripe is that the standards in writing seems to have plummeted in general in the genres i like to watch, whether it's studio heads getting in the way or some other shit im too ignorant to know about, the bottom line is it comes across as yeah we've cut corners but this is it, like it or lump it.

A recent breath of fresh air was Arcane - what a fantastic show, in every way - visually stunning, great characterisation, a compelling story, good fucking writing from dialogue and story to no cutting fucking corners. And as far as im aware it was received very well across the board. Attack on Titan another great show and has maintained a high standard over multiple seasons (not easy). So there's no excuse, it's not an audience thing per se, that's just letting studios off for churning out shite when the talent is out there to make quality products.

Sure the brain dead shit we'll always have and some, maybe lots, of people want it - that has always been the case with cinema, there's nothing new there. And each to their own for those that like that shit.

But for the love of fucking god can we get back to fully fleshed out scripts with no corner cutting in movies/shows where it's required.

[Max_powers]

Watched The Parralax View last night. A proper 70s JFK assassination conspiracy/paranoia fest. The story obviously can be a bit silly for some (I am not big into conspiracies) but the film does well to pull you in and make you feel the paranoia. The brainwashing montage was genuinely creepy and brilliant.

The cinematography was in general amazing. In a weird way, almost prefer The Parralax View to All the Presidents Men (which I love too).

[Macphisto80]

i get your point, it's what i suspected you were suggesting, i just wanted to make sure

i agree that is generally the case with franchise movies

what i disagree with, is that they have to be that way

Aliens is a classic example of what TipTopKop pointed out earlier, yet i'd argue it's a great movie. At the time it's what we were expecting from Cameron - more/bigger/badder aliens - but it had a good script, great characters/cast and a good storyline. I prefer Alien but Aliens is no franchise cash-in imo, Cameron made a fucking good movie.

Similarly, Terminator, all the above applies to that movie too and again I prefer Terminator but the sequel is a quality movie with a good script generally (don't get me started on the end scene  ), good characters/cast, well made.

So my point is just because something is a sequel (or further seasons in TV) is not an excuse for poor writing and badly made films/shows - you can even follow up with bigger badder more-more-more if that's what the studio is calling for, but you can still make a good movie. And im not going to blame the audience if it's not.

Take Picard, season 2 especially - i dont blame trekkies for that, that is 100% on the fuckers that made it. They went with a terrible script in every way possible and did an incredibly shoddy job cutting corners all over the place till it became laughable.

Cos im not in total agreement either that audiences wouldn't take a more 'cerebral', for want of a better expression, film for something like Jurassic - you dont even have to take out the presence of the dino's, you just need a good fucking script, an interesting story.

My whole gripe is that the standards in writing seems to have plummeted in general in the genres i like to watch, whether it's studio heads getting in the way or some other shit im too ignorant to know about, the bottom line is it comes across as yeah we've cut corners but this is it, like it or lump it.

A recent breath of fresh air was Arcane - what a fantastic show, in every way - visually stunning, great characterisation, a compelling story, good fucking writing from dialogue and story to no cutting fucking corners. And as far as im aware it was received very well across the board. Attack on Titan another great show and has maintained a high standard over multiple seasons (not easy). So there's no excuse, it's not an audience thing per se, that's just letting studios off for churning out shite when the talent is out there to make quality products.

Sure the brain dead shit we'll always have and some, maybe lots, of people want it - that has always been the case with cinema, there's nothing new there. And each to their own for those that like that shit.

But for the love of fucking god can we get back to fully fleshed out scripts with no corner cutting in movies/shows where it's required.

No, I agree that writing in some of these things has fallen off a cliff. But again, it's just the status quo of whatever is popular to the consumer. If something sells for the minimum effort, why bother with the effort at all when you can pump something out quickly and cheaply for maximum profit? The gaming industry often shares parallels with films, and it's the same there, only with the actual thing that matters regarding what makes a decent game: game design. I've noticed it going down the shitter as well and largely for similar reasons. Ironically, games trying to be films is a thing I find that's a detriment.

Aliens is a classic example of what TipTopKop pointed out earlier, yet i'd argue it's a great movie. At the time it's what we were expecting from Cameron - more/bigger/badder aliens - but it had a good script, great characters/cast and a good storyline. I prefer Alien but Aliens is no franchise cash-in imo, Cameron made a fucking good movie.

As I said earlier, only regarding the gaming industry, you can sometimes pinpoint exactly where a series started to go wrong. An example I'll use here is Resident Evil, and specifically, Resident Evil 4. Now, by most accounts, 4 in this series represented the best of the lot. For some people it's their favorite game ever. I've not played it, but no doubt it's an amazing game. However, it marked the point where it was such a success and a high point with the fans, that the developers then decided that this is what the fans wanted and needed, and therefore continued on with making it less methodical, more action, less emphasis on engaging your brain, and it gradually went on to become more and more ridiculous until it reached the point where it was just a parody of what made it good to start with. In the case of the Alien series, you can see that it literally peaked by the second film and couldn't be taken any further. Cameron took the concept to the only place it could go and that was that. This is why Alien 3 gets so much flack, despite it  actually being not that bad. It's just that it wasn't Aliens. There's just some things that run their course and burn themselves out very quickly, and no amount of talent in the writing department can salvage. Just look at Prometheus. It tried. It failed. Spectacularly. If we really hope to see good writing in things, then it has to come from a blank slate. Give us new stuff. Then again, that's a massive risk for them. Why? Because its  new, and audiences generally go with what they know. It's a major factor why I absolutely fucking hated the latest Ghostbusters.

 I know it's like comparing apples and oranges with films and games (more like apples and carrots, really) but it's a similar tale with a lot of these mega franchises. The difference is that its easier for them to get your cash with films because its less of a time commitment for the punter v a game that requires 40 hours to finish, and they can target times to release a thing when nothing else can compete in terms of brand recognition. It's an instant win.

[disgraced cake]

Watched The Parralax View last night. A proper 70s JFK assassination conspiracy/paranoia fest. The story obviously can be a bit silly for some (I am not big into conspiracies) but the film does well to pull you in and make you feel the paranoia. The brainwashing montage was genuinely creepy and brilliant.

The cinematography was in general amazing. In a weird way, almost prefer The Parralax View to All the Presidents Men (which I love too).

Love all those conspiracy thrillers from the 70s. A proper golden age for them. The Parralax View might be my favourite of them all, it seems to have all the classic conventions of the genre like the brainwashing scene as you mentioned. Not watched All the Presidents Men for years but it's a classic. The JFK assassination really spawned some great films come to think of it.

Would be wrong not to mention Blow Out too, by Brian De Palma. It's one of Travolta's best ever performances. Never gets old for me.

[TipTopKop]

Good points Macphisto80, and I think by extension most things these days are going that way (or I'm too old!).

Everything is geared for the short, quick cut, soundbite, from TikTok to Politics to even children's shows.

It's all about the bang, pop, quick "look over there and now here this shiny object".

I guess the one medium perhaps bucking this trend is TV series (certain ones at that). Some of them do take the time to set the table and give you a proper slow buildup.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Thing is, Aliens and T2 massively ramped up the action compared to the originals, and there wasn't much space to go after that. Once you get on to the fourth or fifth film the studio's natural instinct is to keep dialling up the action and dialling down the plot. That's how you end up with ever diminishing returns. There's really no point in having anything past three films in any franchise, unless you're Marvel and you have multiple characters simultaneously capable of carrying their own films.

[Peabee]

Thing is, Aliens and T2 massively ramped up the action compared to the originals, and there wasn't much space to go after that. Once you get on to the fourth or fifth film the studio's natural instinct is to keep dialling up the action and dialling down the plot. That's how you end up with ever diminishing returns. There's really no point in having anything past three films in any franchise, unless you're Marvel and you have multiple characters simultaneously capable of carrying their own films.

Marvel get a lot of criticism, but they’ve done extremely well to connect dozens of films directed and written by different people.

If I wanted to have anyone organise a conspiracy, it’d be Marvel as they’ve gotten the closest to being able to coordinate so many different people and stories.

It’s never gonna be perfect, it’s never gonna satisfy everyone, and there will always be questions or films that seem like fillers, but it could have been far far worse considering other franchises can’t manage more than two films.

[Macphisto80]

I think Terminator is the outlier in that it still had some room for the story to logically progress. The problem was Cameron himself. I think he had some kind of rights to it and studios held off waiting for him to make a 3rd, which everyone just assumed - and rightly so - would be about the war with the machines. It basically missed its sell by, and then someone else less creative with zero vision banked on its name. Here we are now, and its still being palmed about from one hack to another, all doing the same tired thing because audiences want more of Arnie as a T-800. I actually didn't mind it when Summer Glau took his place in the TV show because it was a logical thing the machines would do.

[Armand9]

No, I agree that writing in some of these things has fallen off a cliff. But again, it's just the status quo of whatever is popular to the consumer. If something sells for the minimum effort, why bother with the effort at all when you can pump something out quickly and cheaply for maximum profit? The gaming industry often shares parallels with films, and it's the same there, only with the actual thing that matters regarding what makes a decent game: game design. I've noticed it going down the shitter as well and largely for similar reasons. Ironically, games trying to be films is a thing I find that's a detriment.

As I said earlier, only regarding the gaming industry, you can sometimes pinpoint exactly where a series started to go wrong. An example I'll use here is Resident Evil, and specifically, Resident Evil 4. Now, by most accounts, 4 in this series represented the best of the lot. For some people it's their favorite game ever. I've not played it, but no doubt it's an amazing game. However, it marked the point where it was such a success and a high point with the fans, that the developers then decided that this is what the fans wanted and needed, and therefore continued on with making it less methodical, more action, less emphasis on engaging your brain, and it gradually went on to become more and more ridiculous until it reached the point where it was just a parody of what made it good to start with. In the case of the Alien series, you can see that it literally peaked by the second film and couldn't be taken any further. Cameron took the concept to the only place it could go and that was that. This is why Alien 3 gets so much flack, despite it  actually being not that bad. It's just that it wasn't Aliens. There's just some things that run their course and burn themselves out very quickly, and no amount of talent in the writing department can salvage. Just look at Prometheus. It tried. It failed. Spectacularly. If we really hope to see good writing in things, then it has to come from a blank slate. Give us new stuff. Then again, that's a massive risk for them. Why? Because its  new, and audiences generally go with what they know. It's a major factor why I absolutely fucking hated the latest Ghostbusters.

 I know it's like comparing apples and oranges with films and games (more like apples and carrots, really) but it's a similar tale with a lot of these mega franchises. The difference is that its easier for them to get your cash with films because its less of a time commitment for the punter v a game that requires 40 hours to finish, and they can target times to release a thing when nothing else can compete in terms of brand recognition. It's an instant win.

I agree with hell of a lot of what you say and i think the games industry is a good parallel - Final Fantasy was ruined after X cos Square Enix followed the crowd and turned to more action based gameplay rather than a huge part of what had made FF so good, turn-based combat. It wasn't a case of bad writing really, they just followed the crowd in gameplay and it's suffered ever since.

i dont disagree that some things rightly come to their conclusion and should be a done deal - im not suggesting that every franchise or IP should get a next iteration in film/game, and some would be very hard to write for to add to the franchise. But as an example of is that the case or would good writing make it worthy to add another film, i'll use one you mentioned - Prometheus. Rightly panned, but why was it panned? Visuals were stellar, characters were pretty decent too (some supporting ones were poor admittedly, but that was the script - ie writing), it was the writing and in this case not the story, the story line was good if you look at the framework. However, the dialogue and lack of intelligence attributed to members of this 'elite' team and again cutting corners in exposition and lack of attention to detail killed it.

I remember the Prometheus thread on here well and certain things being hammered and (as i wasn't initially as disappointed as some) i wrote about all the assumptions i had made watching the movie to make it make sense, and someone replied that they 'learned' more and it all made much more sense from my post than watching the fucking film  if Scott had given Prometheus the care and attention he'd given Alien, im convince it could've been a top film worthy of the first two. So as someone pointed out, Aliens totally ramped up the action, which for them gave it nowhere to go - i dont believe there was nowhere to go if they decided to make another, it just needed the right story and a writer that could pull it off - Prometheus proves that was the case for me, it's all there, just appalling writing/cutting corners sunk it.

But back to your main point, blaming the audience, i will conceed their is an element of that - i recall TV before reality tv, that sums up your point in one. Forget good tv, the cheapest, most formulaic trash TV is being gobbled up, why spend money on TV slots when we can continually churn out this crap and they lap it up? Fair point. And Tv in general was ruined by reality TV that swamped our screens since.

But still, for me, for those who do get to write scripts, there's no excuse for a bad one, unless like i said before it was butchered for whatever reason, then that's down to the studio/director whatever. I dont know, maybe it's because im a writer myself and im of the belief that almost anything fictional can be good if the writing is quality, maybe that's why i lay so much at the door of the writers. Anyway, it's a pet peave of mine and i'll leave it there, taken up enough thread space.

[B0151?]

Finally went to see Elvis and it was packed, surprised me a bit, been out a while hasn't it

I mostly liked it but wasn't a fan of Hanks performance at all, just wanted more Elvis, Butler was great

[[new username under construction]]

Finally went to see Elvis and it was packed, surprised me a bit, been out a while hasn't it

I mostly liked it but wasn't a fan of Hanks performance at all, just wanted more Elvis, Butler was great

Apparently Hanks wasn't a fan either! Probably should/could have played him without the accent and so much makeup and would have been better. Still a decent film though I thought, Butler as you say was great. One thing I did find annoying was you seemed to get like 20 seconds of a song and that's it! :/

Didn't Elvis say himself that after singing "If I Can Dream" he never wanted to sing another song without meaning, that's pretty major in his life but was kinda passed off in the film as (again) 20 seconds and more about rebelling against a Christmas special.

[killer-heels]

‘Lightyear’ is now on Disney plus for anyone who has a subscription.

[AndyMuller]

‘Lightyear’ is now on Disney plus for anyone who has a subscription.

Crap though init?

[tubby]

Prime have finally changed their garbage UI.  Took them long enough.

[John_P]

Thoroughly enjoyed Bullet Train this afternoon, violent and lots of fun.

[hixxstar]

Thoroughly enjoyed Bullet Train this after, violent and lots of fun.

Yeah lookin forward to this.. i don't mind a mad action film as such (no brainer-just a bit of fun)... 
Don't mind Brad Pitt .... Me too the missus says  ... Once upon a time in hollywood... Fury.. etc..

[Hedley Lamarr]

Prey is on Disney tomorrow, got really good reviews.  I've read the script, it's very similar to the first Predator but a really good read.  Looking forward to it.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Memento coming to Netflix on the 14th of August. Might give that a watch.

[Drinks Sangria]

Prime have finally changed their garbage UI.  Took them long enough.

It's still shite.

[Chakan]

For any Neil Gaiman fans Sandman got released on Netflix today.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Prime have finally changed their garbage UI.  Took them long enough.

I hate it now.

Would opt into the original if I had the chance. You used to be able to click on the 'free to me' and that's gone now, so loads of shite I'm not paying for

[Crosby Nick]

Memento coming to Netflix on the 14th of August. Might give that a watch.

Can’t remember if I’ve seen that before.

[TipTopKop]

Can’t remember if I’ve seen that before.

It's ok Crosby mate, the more you go on, you might start to remember?

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Just finished Thirteen Lives on Prime - the story of the Thai boys football team who got trapped in a cave.

Just brilliant - incredible story, really well told.

Colin Farrell, Vigo Mortensen, Joel Edgerton the lead cast.

[Peabee]

Can’t remember if I’ve seen that before.

Write it down.

[Armand9]

Prey, latest in the predator films and well, fuck me, it's a good one

funnily enough with the talk earlier in the thread about franchises suffering cos there's always the desire to go bigger badder more more more and forget about the story and the writing, here Predator with Prey have done the opposite

if what has gone before didn't exist and this was the first Predator movie im sure it would be thought of as a top movie (it's not as good as the original tho)

story is good, writing is decent, cast is good

there's the language thing, which is always a difficult call how it is implemented so im not going to criticise it on that, even way bigger films like Last of the Mohicans, which i love,  could be pulled up on that (inconsistent in it's choices where it uses english or native language)

also a shoutout to the music, really good (totally borrowing from the afterforementioned Jones/eldeman soundtrack, granted, then again they borrowed from others...)

[Tobelius]

Prey, latest in the predator films and well, fuck me, it's a good one

funnily enough with the talk earlier in the thread about franchises suffering cos there's always the desire to go bigger badder more more more and forget about the story and the writing, here Predator with Prey have done the opposite

if what has gone before didn't exist and this was the first Predator movie im sure it would be thought of as a top movie (it's not as good as the original tho)

story is good, writing is decent, cast is good

there's the language thing, which is always a difficult call how it is implemented so im not going to criticise it on that, even way bigger films like Last of the Mohicans, which i love,  could be pulled up on that (inconsistent in it's choices where it uses english or native language)

also a shoutout to the music, really good (totally borrowing from the afterforementioned Jones/eldeman soundtrack, granted, then again they borrowed from others...)

Thanks,will give it a watch then.

Was going to be a hard pass on this one because the language thing irks me so,much prefer how they handled it on films like Apocalypto.

[Hedley Lamarr]

Prey is available with a Comanche dub, the cast and crew are on record saying it's the definitive way to watch it, the original script had 'All dialogue in Comanche' printed across the top of it, the idea was scrapped when Disney bought Fox.