Topic: FSG discussion thread

[Gerry Attrick]

Who is Raphael Honigstein for the Athletic? Seemed to lay into Klopp a lot in the Athletic podcast yesterday.

Very well connected journalist and pretty respected. Wrote a book about Klopp before.

[shank94]

Very well connected journalist and pretty respected. Wrote a book about Klopp before.

Thanks, I think it was Tony Evans who is the one laying into him. Any idea who he is?

https://theathletic.com/podcast/144-athletic-football-podcast/

[sinnermichael]

Thanks, I think it was Tony Evans who is the one laying into him. Any idea who he is?

https://theathletic.com/podcast/144-athletic-football-podcast/

He's a very good writer when it comes to the history of the club but he's generally just pessimistic in general. "Old school" I'd say.

[IgorBobbins]

Who is Raphael Honigstein and Tony Evans for the Athletic? Seemed to lay into Klopp a lot in the Athletic podcast yesterday.

I watched the podcast on YouTube (well, the 10 mins they were discussing Liverpool anyway) and I didn’t get the impression they were laying into Klopp.  Just saying he has more authority now (old style Manager vs coach)

[shank94]

I watched the podcast on YouTube (well, the 10 mins they were discussing Liverpool anyway) and I didn’t get the impression they were laying into Klopp.  Just saying he has more authority now (old style Manager vs coach)

He insinuated a couple of things: 1. He said Klopp doesn't want help to make decisions. 2. He makes it sound like Klopp is the one haggling over the 5m pounds. 3. Klopp didn't build the system he plays, "he stumbled on to it" and going on to commend the stumble.

There might be some truth to it but his tone has a huge tinge of accusatory.

[The G in Gerrard]

Even without signings we will do well. We have a great attack and some good players all over the place. But we need a couple more to just ensure we are not left short.

We pretty much have to ensure that certain players can't get injured and are kept for league games only though?

[redmark]

He insinuated a couple of things: 1. He said Klopp doesn't want help to make decisions. 2. He makes it sound like Klopp is the one haggling over the 5m pounds. 3. Klopp didn't build the system he plays, "he stumbled on to it" and going on to commend the stumble.

There might be some truth to it but his tone has a huge tinge of accusatory.

I think someone can have the opinion that Klopp is the best manager Liverpool have had in 40 years, or the best manager in the world today, but also think that the Edwards-Gordon-Klopp triumvirate was a better recruitment model than, in his words from the opening of the podcast, "too much power is centred on Jurgen Klopp". Whether we like it or not, there is 'a budget'. We built success on analytics. The manager and coaching staff want certain things. All three of those factors are important.

[Draex]

I think its probably misplaced to say this is down to Schmadtke. Why did Edwards leave? Why did Ward resign months after he'd taken the job?

The process is broken. Whether that's down to too restrictive budgets, too little flexibility and delays on the odd million here and there, or (last summer's speculation) Klopp/Ljinders overriding the analysts, maybe Pearce's reported "fuzzy thinking", is almost impossible to know and divisive and borderline treason to speculate. But our recruitment process is fucked. And ultimately that's the owners responsibility.

An elite SD doesn't magically fix the process, unless he's given the funds and the authority to do that himself.

That’s my point, a sporting director is meant to bring all areas of the club together under one vision. It can’t be an ally of the manager, or of FSG. Both needs respect but they also needs to be challenging.

So as part of that hiring process a systematic review of all areas of the club needs to happen.

So yes, why did Edwards, Graham and Ward all leave would be questioned as part of that.

[kaesarsosei]

I haven't really get involved with the FSG stuff before, but I think both of the following things can be true.

In a sane football world where no club is owned by a petro-state (Newcastle, City, PSG) or bankrolled in a bizarre and suspicious manner by a proxy petro-state (Chelsea), then FSG would really be the best owners going. The club is transformed economically, the stadium is now the right size whilst not causing disruption and losing its history, Liverpool 2023 are basically Liverpool of old but bigger and better.

But.

We don't live in a sane football world anymore, and FSG's model of ownership is never going to keep us at the top table. For that we need to sell our souls to the devil. Arsenal never really had a chance last season. United are miles off. Chelsea are a mess but they will win the title again before either of those two. If Liverpool did have another £100m to spend 2 weeks ago and had signed Lavia and at least 1 (probably 2) more players, I genuinely think we would have been in with a very good shout of the title, second-favourites at least.


Any success we have had on the pitch was a combination of 1 shrewd sell (Coutinho), two transformative signings from that money (VVD and Alisson) and a string of extremely successful mid-level transfers (eg Mane, Salah, Robbo). When everything is not pulling perfectly together, we lose ground because we can't compete financially. We can complain all we like about City, Chelsea making the football landscape insane but it is what it is and it isn't going to change.

The main reason we have had any success is having the best manager in the world. As other's  have suggested, when Klopp goes we are fucked.

[Mister Flip Flop]

I haven't really get involved with the FSG stuff before, but I think both of the following things can be true.

In a sane football world where no club is owned by a petro-state (Newcastle, City, PSG) or bankrolled in a bizarre and suspicious manner by a proxy petro-state (Chelsea), then FSG would really be the best owners going. The club is transformed economically, the stadium is now the right size whilst not causing disruption and losing its history, Liverpool 2023 are basically Liverpool of old but bigger and better.

But.

We don't live in a sane football world anymore, and FSG's model of ownership is never going to keep us at the top table. For that we need to sell our souls to the devil. Arsenal never really had a chance last season. United are miles off. Chelsea are a mess but they will win the title again before either of those two. If Liverpool did have another £100m to spend 2 weeks ago and had signed Lavia and at least 1 (probably 2) more players, I genuinely think we would have been in with a very good shout of the title, second-favourites at least.


Any success we have had on the pitch was a combination of 1 shrewd sell (Coutinho), two transformative signings from that money (VVD and Alisson) and a string of extremely successful mid-level transfers (eg Mane, Salah, Robbo). When everything is not pulling perfectly together, we lose ground because we can't compete financially. We can complain all we like about City, Chelsea making the football landscape insane but it is what it is and it isn't going to change.

The main reason we have had any success is having the best manager in the world. As other's  have suggested, when Klopp goes we are fucked.

I'd rather see us relegated in the last game of the season by Everton than get sport washed by one of these backward regimes.

[[new username under construction]]

One thing for sure, we need an elite level sporting director urgently. The Jorg experiment jury isn’t out, the verdict is close, and it’s not good.

Sooooooooo new sporting director juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust after the window shuts

Sooooooooo investment juuuuuuuuuuuuuust after the window shuts

Got that right don't i?

[Eeyore]

Thanks, I think it was Tony Evans who is the one laying into him. Any idea who he is?

https://theathletic.com/podcast/144-athletic-football-podcast/

Tony Evans is a weird one. Was very good at highlighting the issues around Hillsborough but had some personal issues and then basically became a rentagob for talksport. Got wheeled out whenever they needed anyone to attack the club.

[AndyMuller]

Buy some fucking players.

[Wool]

Buy some fucking players.

[MonsLibpool]

People will always back oue vulture capitalist owners who are more interested in acquiring more sport franchises than maintaining the ones they already have. The "they've never taken money out" argument is weak because they generate funds (whether equity or debt) based on the value of the clubs they already own and use this to purchase more clubs.

They've totally killed expectations now and some are even content with a battle for the top 4. Like I said a few days ago, investment is needed to challenge (sprinkled with the odd title challenge every 4/5 years when things align) and these guys aren't willing to do it. Therefore, a comfortable top 4 finish is this team's ceiling going forward. That's not good enough for a club that "exists to win trophies" as Bill Shankly once said but trophies are apparently not that important.

[[new username under construction]]

Buy some fucking players.

Can I finish my breakfast first?

[killer-heels]

We pretty much have to ensure that certain players can't get injured and are kept for league games only though?

Yes but thats why the urgency for transfers. We need an injection of defensive ability and tonnes of energy into the back line and midfield. Do that and we are then well stocked.

[Sharado]

Sooooooooo new sporting director juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust after the window shuts

Sooooooooo investment juuuuuuuuuuuuuust after the window shuts

Got that right don't i?

I am already absolutely PUMPED to see what gets released post the window closing to make us feel good about this shambles. New investment? Maybe new ownership entirely? If we're really lucky we'll get our 5th or whatever it is john henry apology video/letter. Speccy lizard prick.

[killer-heels]

I am already absolutely PUMPED to see what gets released post the window closing to make us feel good about this shambles. New investment? Maybe new ownership entirely? If we're really lucky we'll get our 5th or whatever it is john henry apology video/letter. Speccy lizard prick.

Ive said multiple times that the new investment stuff was pointless once it passed a certain point. We all felt it would help with transfers but once that opportunity passed, who really gives a shit about what investment we get? We should give a shit about the identity of the investors but not the money.

Plus i always felt investment would be announced just after the window shuts

[Eeyore]

That’s my point, a sporting director is meant to bring all areas of the club together under one vision. It can’t be an ally of the manager, or of FSG. Both needs respect but they also needs to be challenging.

So as part of that hiring process a systematic review of all areas of the club needs to happen.

So yes, why did Edwards, Graham and Ward all leave would be questioned as part of that.

We don't have what you would call a normal sporting director though. In the traditional model then a Sporting Director basically runs the football side of the business.

They are given a budget and usually choose who the coach is.

We don't do that as Schmadtke explained. For me some of the Sporting Director role is given to Klopp whilst Gordon takes up a massive chunk.

What autonomy does a Liverpool Sporting Director actually have with Gordon making the day to day decisions.

I agree that we need a review of the operations but for me that would almost certainly be done by Gordon himself.

[shank94]

Isn't Horgè on probation, so might very well see him sign for 2-3 years as stipulated as works through the window. I think getting those deals done especially outgoing should suffice to get the permanent job since those outgoings, regardless of how they hurt us, were very good financial deals for the "sustainability" of the club. Unless I have no idea what he does at the club.

[lgvkarlos]

Yes but thats why the urgency for transfers. We need an injection of defensive ability and tonnes of energy into the back line and midfield. Do that and we are then well stocked.

Absolutely

[MD1990]

He insinuated a couple of things: 1. He said Klopp doesn't want help to make decisions. 2. He makes it sound like Klopp is the one haggling over the 5m pounds. 3. Klopp didn't build the system he plays, "he stumbled on to it" and going on to commend the stumble.

There might be some truth to it but his tone has a huge tinge of accusatory.

Tony Evans loves going against the general consensus.
Does this constantly over the years

He was great about Hillsborough as mentioned above but loves putting down the club. So negative

[tubby]

There's no way on earth Klopp is involved with setting budgets and/or negotiating prices.  I very much doubt he sets limits on how much a player is worth.

[Wool]

Billy Hogan, Liverpool’s chief executive on the impact of being in the Europa League:

“Our goal is to run the club sustainably. When you are missing revenue from the Champions League, you have to react accordingly — and we’ve done that.” [the athletic]

https://theathletic.com/4762019/2023/08/10/billy-hogan-liverpool-anfield-delay-lebron-taylor-swift/

Here we go. Fuck right off you c*nts.

[tubby]

Uh oh.

[[new username under construction]]

Billy Hogan, Liverpool’s chief executive on the impact of being in the Europa League:

“Our goal is to run the club sustainably. When you are missing revenue from the Champions League, you have to react accordingly — and we’ve done that.” [the athletic]

https://theathletic.com/4762019/2023/08/10/billy-hogan-liverpool-anfield-delay-lebron-taylor-swift/

Here we go. Fuck right off you c*nts.

Be sensible all the way down to relegation yeah never, ever! put your hand in your pocket as owners to help

[Simplexity]

Billy Hogan, Liverpool’s chief executive on the impact of being in the Europa League:

“Our goal is to run the club sustainably. When you are missing revenue from the Champions League, you have to react accordingly — and we’ve done that.” [the athletic]

https://theathletic.com/4762019/2023/08/10/billy-hogan-liverpool-anfield-delay-lebron-taylor-swift/

Here we go. Fuck right off you c*nts.

Weird how that does not stop the likes of Arsenal and United from spending when they are not in the CL. United are richer, sure. Why are Arsenal able to outspend us by magnitudes? Wages? We just slashed our wage budget drastically.

[shank94]

One day after the Lavia rumors. Read the fucking room Billy!

Surely we have other methods of cutting costs.

[clinical]

They are so predictable. We're ran like a midtable club.

[killer-heels]

Billy Hogan, Liverpool’s chief executive on the impact of being in the Europa League:

“Our goal is to run the club sustainably. When you are missing revenue from the Champions League, you have to react accordingly — and we’ve done that.” [the athletic]

https://theathletic.com/4762019/2023/08/10/billy-hogan-liverpool-anfield-delay-lebron-taylor-swift/

Here we go. Fuck right off you c*nts.

With all due respect you do have Klopp saying we will sign players. You dont know who to believe.

[classycarra]

Not that it matters but I had another account on here that I lost the log in details for – I've been on here since 2004, but yes I've been a Liverpool fan essentially my entire life. I was quite proud of my involvement as an 'internet terrorist' in the ousting of H&G. You're right, we didn't have a list of alternative options in 2010, but that was a different time. Today we know so much more about the types of people that try to own football clubs and we should be a lot more conscious of the alternatives.

sorry, was too late to reply last night. hope (think) you didnt take my point on the RAWK account as checking credentials or anything!

I'm with you on the internet terrorism front, lots to be proud of - and I think that the example served supporters goals in the subsequent years with FSG, in terms of tempering some of their worst early decisions (from a matchgoing supporters perspective).

If people don't want FSG as owners it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask what type of owner they do want. I suspect a lot of people aren't answering that question because they either (a) know that the alternatives are extremely risky, or (b) secretly want us to be state-funded (not you). I'm not accusing any individual poster of the latter, but without anyone providing any idea of what ownership they hope for, or expect, it's a natural conclusion to reach.

i get you (and appreciate you being explicit about the latter point).  i think there's broader alternatives, but I know what you mean.

for me, I sort of set out my thoughts on this last summer - think i made a long and rambling post in here when confronted with similar hypotheticals (but less clear, constructive and polite than this one) about 'well if you think we can do better, tell us the solution'. i was on board with your point A above - as a firm believer of better the devil you know in the context of football ownership. so my ideal solution was FSG going back to how they were when they first joined and we hadn't won the big trophies.

i'd dilute my ideal even further now, since they appear to remain relatively 'checked out' (am v ready to change my mind on that, if they give any evidence otherwise in coming years) to just wanting FSG to share around 5% of the ambition of the average matchgoing LFC supporter for competing for titles - with our absolute best efforts and energy, on all fronts on and off field - and occasionally winning titles (or at least having amazing journeys to remember as supporters - eg 13-14 and a couple of seasons either side of our PL win). if they cared that much, Klopp'd be in a much better spot (which aligns with what most supporters want)

[MonsLibpool]

Billy Hogan, Liverpool’s chief executive on the impact of being in the Europa League:

“Our goal is to run the club sustainably. When you are missing revenue from the Champions League, you have to react accordingly — and we’ve done that.” [the athletic]

https://theathletic.com/4762019/2023/08/10/billy-hogan-liverpool-anfield-delay-lebron-taylor-swift/

Here we go. Fuck right off you c*nts.

Like they invest when we're in the CL...

[koptommy93]

Why not, they've got one of the best records against teams with a winning record & they've got injured players to come back into the team.

A six game deficit is not small, and they've shown zero ability to go on the kind of run it would take.

[redwillow]

Billy Hogan, Liverpool’s chief executive on the impact of being in the Europa League:

“Our goal is to run the club sustainably. When you are missing revenue from the Champions League, you have to react accordingly — and we’ve done that.” [the athletic]

https://theathletic.com/4762019/2023/08/10/billy-hogan-liverpool-anfield-delay-lebron-taylor-swift/

Here we go. Fuck right off you c*nts.

First of all, we missed the revenue from the Champions League because of how you run the club.

Secondly, how on earth are we run sustainably? We cannot continue to operate how we are - literally the opposite of sustainability.

We have always operated on selling players to buy, but year on year we let more players leave than we sign. The squad and wage bill continues to shrink. Eventually what do you have to sell?

We don't invest, we lose CL, we lose revenue, we don't invest again, we fall behind again, we lose European football altogether, its a viscious cycle.

[vblfc]

This is where we seem to be stuck. Who, from the LFC side, talks to Henry, Werner et al to persuade them it’s a bit of a crisis and to invest differently. I guess it sits somewhere around Gordon?  It’s interesting because, for all our screaming of “mingebags” I still don’t see anyone bringing a solid argument of what our investment model should look like and who are a good example of a well run club in such a model?  Chelsea?  City? United? Arsenal? Madrid? Villa??? Not so easy to see whats right way to go. Looks like the money league will be won easily by state ownership which no-one wants.
So it feels like we are trying to push towards a Arsenal or current United type model? I’m still not convinced either of them are on the right path.

[LifelongRed, Sussex]

I think the analysis here of the suits hierarchy is overblown.

Instead it all boils down to money.

Football transfer prices are now on another level from when we bought Fabinho, Salah, Mane.  Edwards operated in an entirely different landscape.  Caicedo’s fee blows the VVD fee out of the water.  I realise we uncovered gems such as Robertson, but it took the purchase of expensive quality to deliver silverware.

£50m now gets you a punt on a very young DM.

The PL/Bayern/Real/PSG have moved on, we’re still trying to box clever in a market that seldom exists.  Mac Allister a welcome and rare exception.

[Caston]

Obviously this can change before the end of the window - but surely we should have lots of funds available?

Considering this was bigged up as a big rebuild window - it's on the verge of being a massive disappointment again.

[classycarra]

Billy Hogan, Liverpool’s chief executive on the impact of being in the Europa League:

“Our goal is to run the club sustainably. When you are missing revenue from the Champions League, you have to react accordingly — and we’ve done that.” [the athletic]

https://theathletic.com/4762019/2023/08/10/billy-hogan-liverpool-anfield-delay-lebron-taylor-swift/

Here we go. Fuck right off you c*nts.

good lord, has he always been so unreadably unbearable - absolute quilt

right on cue though, he's proven the point we've been making

“Our goal is to run the club sustainably. When you are missing revenue from the Champions League, you have to react accordingly — and we’ve done that.”

Sort of flies in the face of the old adage that you have to spend money to make money - instead, true to form from these vulture capitalists, he's talking downsizing.

(sidenote: what happened to the performance-based contracts reducing the salary commitments when the team don't reach goals like qualifying for the CL?? think, as suspected, that was just more self-aggrandising spin from FSG and their supporters to try and act like they were superior to other football clubs - like the 'watching other teams panicking on sky sports news deadline day' hubris)

Ultimately, in an entire interview about being CEO of LFC - about the lay of the land and the future - the guy has shared absolutely no sporting ambition. bodes well for Klopp..

[LifelongRed, Sussex]

Obviously this can change before the end of the window - but surely we should have lots of funds available?

Considering this was bigged up as a big rebuild window - it's on the verge of being a massive disappointment again.

Thank you.

Add to that the vast payroll saved and we won’t be paying player bonuses!