Topic: A time to reflect honestly or nothing to worry about ?

[Dim Glas]

Sadio Mane - 111 EPL goals, 38 assists, exceptional pace and timing of runs terrorising defences thus creating space for his forward partners.

Not sure what the point of your post is, but the point about his pace - it’s not as it was is it?

He’s not making waves in Bayern yet. Watched them at the weekend, first time in a few weeks, and I can see why they are very ‘blah’ about him so far. He’ll turn it around I suppose, but it isn’t the walk in the park he may have expected!

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Not sure what the point of your post is, but the point about his pace - it’s not as it was is it?

He’s not making waves in Bayern yet. Watched them at the weekend, first time in a few weeks, and I can see why they are very ‘blah’ about him so far. He’ll turn it around I suppose, but it isn’t the walk in the park he may have expected!

He has been below average to downright poor for them so far this season.

[Suareznumber7]

It's pretty clear we're at the end of a cycle with this group.  I think it probably came a year earlier then Klopp and co. thought but it looks like it's happening.  I still think we'll get our act together and will be good enough to get top 4 but it's not going to be quite as easy as expected. 

[Dave McCoy]

Stuck this in the Klopp Template thread but seems equally applicable here. To me it seems like a failing on all fronts which has combined to really kick us:
- Last season. On the back of several long, intense seasons which took a lot out of the players, we had the longest season possible, the culmination of which was hugely physically and mentally draining.
- The WC. This pushed the start of the season back so the players barely got any time off, all the more significant after the season we've had. We've also had to fit all our PL and CL games into a reduced timeframe with no let up at all.
- Preseason. Players have gone on record as saying it was one of the most intense they've done, and we've lost various players to injury (which is undoubtedly in conjunction with the above).
- Recruitment. Few were calling for more defenders or forwards this summer after Nunez came in. But midfield has been a quagmire of an issue. Coming into the season with our first choice players the wrong side of 30 (and Thiago with various injury issues), Fabinho's form dipping, Jones and Elliot still relatively inexperienced, Keita a seemingly endless enigma of form and fitness, and Ox crocked and plainly on the wane, everyone wanted a new midfielder. But we didn't sign one.
- Performances. Again it's linked to the above, but some of the individual performances from players simply haven't been good enough, particularly given the consistent quality we'd seen in previous years. Trent, Robbo, Virgil, Fabinho, Mo all wobbling badly. And so much expected from Nunez given the fanfare and the price tag.

So there's no one quick fix that would have solved everything, frankly. As others have said, we've sleepwalked into the issue with our midfield to an extent by failing to replace/upgrade the likes of Milner, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Keita. But one or two more signings don't for me sort all of this out. This is a collective burnout, mental and physical, which probably meant that a real dip in performances this season was almost unavoidable. The worry is just how big this dip proves to be, and the long term implications of a possible failure to secure a CL place for next season.

I just want to highlight this again as I think people are just getting so caught up in the overall badness that it masks that there is no one thing that explains this.

It's one thing to say you are no longer are going to win the title. In any season where LFC was going to win the title it was always going to require some breaks go our way just for the simple fact that ManC exist. Through 9 games ManC are playing at an even higher level than they were last year and if they are able to keep up this pace through the rest of the season I'd say there would be no signing or change that would then enable us to win the title.

It's a completely different thing though to say you're going to struggle for top 4. Based on the season so far we're just mediocre and if you were to remove the Bournemouth result I'd say we've actually been bad. Why? People will come in and scream lack of investment and FSG this and that but unless you believe Klopp and Ward and the rest of the club came into this season knowing this was going to happen then this is as much of a surprise to them as it is to us would be my guess. I would hazard even that if we had signed Tchouameni instead of Nunez that nothing would be appreciably different considering how bad the rest of the squad is performing compared to just 4 months ago. There is no single thing that can explain such a drop off.

Just to expand on that, what are some other recent examples of something like this happening?

[Fromola]

It's pretty clear we're at the end of a cycle with this group.  I think it probably came a year earlier then Klopp and co. thought but it looks like it's happening.  I still think we'll get our act together and will be good enough to get top 4 but it's not going to be quite as easy as expected.

It's a big combination of things which could have been mostly mitigated had we not made such a pigs ear of the transfer window. We made a mess of pre-season, hangover from last season, a lot of players over or near 30 who've given everything for 5+ years game after game.

Had we been able to limit the damage we could have regroup in Jan with a signing or two (i.e. Diaz last season) to kick things on again. Instead, our league season could be dead in the water before the World Cup even starts.

[Eeyore]

I can't believe people are surprised that a huge fall off is possible. The great teams build up an aura that quite often sees their opponents beaten before they set foot on the pitch.

Even when great teams age and fade that aura still exists for a while. It takes opponents a while to understand you have a weakness and the bottle to exploit.

It is nothing new we fell off a cliff at the start of the 90s. The Arsenal invincible team went from being unbeatable to losing in quick succession.

It happened to Chelsea under Mourinho twice it then happened to United when Ferguson retired.

It happened to us in 20/21 when we had no centre backs.

The secret is to keep refreshing the squad keep the hunger but above all keep the aura.

[Fromola]

Not sure what the point of your post is, but the point about his pace - it’s not as it was is it?

He’s not making waves in Bayern yet. Watched them at the weekend, first time in a few weeks, and I can see why they are very ‘blah’ about him so far. He’ll turn it around I suppose, but it isn’t the walk in the park he may have expected!

Mane was adapting his game to become more of a poacher CF after Diaz signed. He'd definitely lost a yard and given the form of our senior players this season may have dropped off further himself had he stayed.

It's his link with Salah that we miss along with his goals (he wasn't the player he was a few years ago and turning 31 this season the move made sense all around). Bringing in Diaz and Nunez this year should be good renewal for the attack for the next few years. We couldn't just stick with Bobby/Mo/Mane anymore. That's the mistake we've made with the midfield because we're so conservative that we couldn't possibly solve two problems in one transfer window.

[mattD]

Front (Darwin) and back (Ali) is okay, the rest in between have got serious issues. Even Jota and Diaz look as if they're playing a different system despite bright spots, I just never get the sense they are linking up all that well.

Rebuild, refresh, rejuvenate. The core of the side is stagnating, many over the age of 30. The 3rd oldest squad in the league tells you something, and they sure play like it.

[plura]

Front (Darwin) and back (Ali) is okay, the rest in between have got serious issues. Even Jota and Diaz look as if they're playing a different system despite bright spots, I just never get the sense they are linking up all that well.

Rebuild, refresh, rejuvenate. The core of the side is stagnating, many over the age of 30. The 3rd oldest squad in the league tells you something, and they sure play like it.

Diaz has probably been our best players this season, and has shown since he arrived that he’s a player we don’t want to lose. Jota can be a bit hot and cold but overall is a very very good player when in form. Both of them are 25 so we can expect a lot from them in the future.

They are not our problems, neither is Ali and Darwin.

Nunez, Diaz, Jota, Ali, Trent, Konate, Elliott and Carvalho are all in good years still and something to build on with. Noticeable the midfield and defence falls short here.

[LifelongRed, Sussex]

Mane was adapting his game to become more of a poacher CF after Diaz signed. He'd definitely lost a yard and given the form of our senior players this season may have dropped off further himself had he stayed.

It's his link with Salah that we miss along with his goals (he wasn't the player he was a few years ago and turning 31 this season the move made sense all around). Bringing in Diaz and Nunez this year should be good renewal for the attack for the next few years. We couldn't just stick with Bobby/Mo/Mane anymore. That's the mistake we've made with the midfield because we're so conservative that we couldn't possibly solve two problems in one transfer window.

By all accounts the club would’ve signed both Nunez and Tchouameni in summer 2022.  I think that would’ve gone a long way to solving all issues.

Fabinho and Thiago would’ve been playing in a centre midfield with a 22 year old bordering on world class, TAA would’ve had pace and energy protecting him, Thiago could just go out there and create.

So the funds were there.

But no plan B, instead the hitherto much praised ‘buy the best or no one’ philosophy.  Whilst Manu, Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea all went on shopping sprees, giving better first teams and squad depth.

[mrantarctica]

By all accounts the club would’ve signed both Nunez and Tchouameni in summer 2022.  I think that would’ve gone a long way to solving all issues.

Fabinho and Thiago would’ve been playing in a centre midfield with a 22 year old bordering on world class, TAA would’ve had pace and energy protecting him, Thiago could just go out there and create.

So the funds were there.

But no plan B, instead the hitherto much praised ‘buy the best or no one’ philosophy.  Whilst Manu, Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea all went on shopping sprees, giving better first teams and squad depth.

Signing Tchouameni would have been a major step, but I don't think it would have covered up all the flaws of this team. Athleticism is what we need, but you can't have one guy running around and everyone else being slow and languid. It's still better than nobody being athletic but I don't think one player solves all our problems in a Klopp team. This idea of Thiago just going out to create is a fantasy. Klopp has never really employed such a player in a free role in midfield. All of the players are expected to contribute to the various phases of the game. In particular, the midfielders are what make us killers in transition. You can't do this if you have even one immobile, slow midfielder.

[JackWard33]

I just want to highlight this again as I think people are just getting so caught up in the overall badness that it masks that there is no one thing that explains this.

It's one thing to say you are no longer are going to win the title. In any season where LFC was going to win the title it was always going to require some breaks go our way just for the simple fact that ManC exist. Through 9 games ManC are playing at an even higher level than they were last year and if they are able to keep up this pace through the rest of the season I'd say there would be no signing or change that would then enable us to win the title.

It's a completely different thing though to say you're going to struggle for top 4. Based on the season so far we're just mediocre and if you were to remove the Bournemouth result I'd say we've actually been bad. Why? People will come in and scream lack of investment and FSG this and that but unless you believe Klopp and Ward and the rest of the club came into this season knowing this was going to happen then this is as much of a surprise to them as it is to us would be my guess. I would hazard even that if we had signed Tchouameni instead of Nunez that nothing would be appreciably different considering how bad the rest of the squad is performing compared to just 4 months ago. There is no single thing that can explain such a drop off.

Just to expand on that, what are some other recent examples of something like this happening?

I hate to say it but... Klopp's last season at Dortmund springs to mind (from 2nd the previous season to near relegation halfway through before getting it together and finishing 7th)
Outside of that Mourinho at Chelsea the year after winning the title in 15/16 ?
There aren't many

I do think our drop off isn't quite as bad as the league table indicates - our xg is +0.47 this yeah which is in the 3rd to 6th range - and we've been pretty unlucky with the way certain things have gone in a few games this season (we're at the bottom end of the points we'd expect to have won with the performances we've produced)
However given we were really dominant in the league last season (something like +1.6 per 90 over the season which is crushing) it's clearly a big drop which must have a number of reasons 

[redbyrdz]

Diaz has probably been our best players this season, and has shown since he arrived that he’s a player we don’t want to lose. Jota can be a bit hot and cold but overall is a very very good player when in form. Both of them are 25 so we can expect a lot from them in the future.

They are not our problems, neither is Ali and Darwin.

Nunez, Diaz, Jota, Ali, Trent, Konate, Elliott and Carvalho are all in good years still and something to build on with. Noticeable the midfield and defence falls short here.

Think what we're missing is a solid 25ish year old midfielder to transition from our old midfield to one with Elliot, Carvalho, Bacjetic. Maybe Jones too.

Losing Wijnaldum has hurt us more than losing Mane. It's a bit similar to the loss of Alonso, it took us a few years to sort that one out.

[newterp]

Think what we're missing is a solid 25ish year old midfielder to transition from our old midfield to one with Elliot, Carvalho, Bacjetic. Maybe Jones too.

Losing Wijnaldum has hurt us more than losing Mane. It's a bit similar to the loss of Alonso, it took us a few years to sort that one out.

Not replacing Wijnaldum maybe - not losing him. He was declining - but always available. He didn't play for PSG for a variety of reasons, and now he will miss the majority of this season via injury

[Walshy nMe®]

Seems a weird pattern.

Win the league followed by horrible season.
Almost win the quadruple, followed by potentially horrible season.

[Coolie High]

Seems a weird pattern.

Win the league followed by horrible season.
Almost win the quadruple, followed by potentially horrible season.

The pattern I guess is not strengthening the squad enough after a good season.

[Qston]

I hate to say it but... Klopp's last season at Dortmund springs to mind (from 2nd the previous season to near relegation halfway through before getting it together and finishing 7th)
Outside of that Mourinho at Chelsea the year after winning the title in 15/16 ?
There aren't many

I do think our drop off isn't quite as bad as the league table indicates - our xg is +0.47 this yeah which is in the 3rd to 6th range - and we've been pretty unlucky with the way certain things have gone in a few games this season (we're at the bottom end of the points we'd expect to have won with the performances we've produced)
However given we were really dominant in the league last season (something like +1.6 per 90 over the season which is crushing) it's clearly a big drop which must have a number of reasons

I remember when Klopp came there was debate about his last season at Dortmund and plenty was posted about the fact that the stats for Dortmund that season were freakish. Again, something to do with xg and that the goals scored didn`t reflect it. It was used at the time to explain his last season at Dortmund. 

[redk84]

There is no one point where I'd imagine klopp thinking, right yep as of now I am rebuilding the team..... let's go and recruit a bunch of lads

For our last winning team to evolve into a new winning team it had to have been a gradual process and we haven't made the best job of it so far.
Fine. But there are two more years after this one and a lot of windows inbetween whereby I am hoping Klopp gets what he needs to form his 2nd title winning team and whatever else we can get our hands on. One more of the big ones atleast will make his tenure feel so much better, atm i feel he hasn't won as much as deserved with this team.

Whether we thought we had more time to act or there's been unforeseen circumstances, some complacency - who knows.
At this moment in the season we are in the shit....so go for the cups, get top 4 and try out whatever you need to get your ideas straight for attacking the league next season.

[Son of Spion]

Seems a weird pattern.

Win the league followed by horrible season.
Almost win the quadruple, followed by potentially horrible season.

It's not that surprising though. The sheer scale of the mental and physical task involved is monumental. We've been the most highly performing non-steroidal side in English football history. The best legitimate side this country has ever seen. Competing with, and often beating, a grotesque freak show in the process.

We've gone flat out, never had enough recovery time, never genuinely strengthened when in that position of strength, then had to go again, and again, and again, pretty much with the same core players.

It's no surprise that the seasons after our biggest pushes have seen us falling short. You can only go flat out for so long, then something has to give.

[Kundale]

I am grateful to Coutinho. He gave me the greatest joy even if he did not play single second in those games. I don't think we would have had Allison and VVD if it was not for him. I was heart broken back then though.
Building a team is a continuous process, it cannot stop cause you won the league or CL or even quadruple. 

[JackWard33]

I remember when Klopp came there was debate about his last season at Dortmund and plenty was posted about the fact that the stats for Dortmund that season were freakish. Again, something to do with xg and that the goals scored didn`t reflect it. It was used at the time to explain his last season at Dortmund. 

Yeah it was freakish for the first half ...they were about as unlucky as you can get which left them in the relegation soon, it was a bizarre run of bad luck
But at the same time they were also a lot worse than the previous year
Same is true here I think, we're not mid table but we're also a big drop down from last year

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

The pattern I guess is not strengthening the squad enough after a good season.

Some posters and people I know personally argued in the summer about why would we strengthen and refresh the squad when we almost.won the quadruple. The main reason besides the players being a year older and most being on the wrong side of 30 is that all our competitors were strengthening and filling any gaps in their squad, meanwhile we lost a key cog in our machine and just replaced him.

[Dim Glas]

I remember when Klopp came there was debate about his last season at Dortmund and plenty was posted about the fact that the stats for Dortmund that season were freakish. Again, something to do with xg and that the goals scored didn`t reflect it. It was used at the time to explain his last season at Dortmund.

yeah I am not sure if there is much point in comparing them. I get the 7 year thing makes pundits and the tabloid media all giddy, but the fact is, he’s probably the only high profile coach who has stayed what is a long time in football terms at 3 clubs, it just doesn’t happen much. So it’s hard to compare I guess with anyone else. Plus it’s like they are using what is a massive positive, to actually have a dig.

The make up of each team and club was so very different each of those seasons. Dortmund that year, it really was a freakish season, a case of everything that can go wrong, did go wrong, and this is no comfort to us by the way - but Dortmund played well a lot of the time in that first half of the season. Only comparison though I would say is that that there was a suggestion of a rather large ‘hangover’, in BVB’s case - from the world cup, and in our case maybe the intensity of last season still being felt.

[keyop]

Seems a weird pattern.

Win the league followed by horrible season.
Almost win the quadruple, followed by potentially horrible season.

We've seen it before under different owners, managers and teams.

08/09: we narrowly miss out on the title under Benitez, finishing on 82 points and only losing 2 games all season.
09/10: we finish 7th on 63 points - a 19 point swing.

13/14: we narrowly miss out on the title under Brendan, finishing on 84 points.
14/15: we finish 6th on 62 points, with 12 defeats and a 22 point swing.

19/20: we win the league with 99 points.
20/21: we finish 3rd on 69 points - a 30 point swing.

2021/22: we miss out on the title on the final day, finishing on 92 points and narrowly missing out on the quadruple.
2022/23: we're on 10 points from 8 games and almost everyone is either injured, or coming back from injury, or out of form.

There's mitigating circumstances for each of those of course and plenty of other teams have fallen off a cliff after a great season, but they've certainly all been back-to-back seasons of massive contrast.

[Aldo1988]

We've seen it before under different owners, managers and teams.

08/09: we narrowly miss out on the title under Benitez, finishing on 82 points and only losing 2 games all season.
09/10: we finish 7th on 63 points - a 19 point swing.

13/14: we narrowly miss out on the title under Brendan, finishing on 84 points.
14/15: we finish 6th on 62 points, with 12 defeats and a 22 point swing.

19/20: we win the league with 99 points.
20/21: we finish 3rd on 69 points - a 30 point swing.

2021/22: we miss out on the title on the final day, finishing on 92 points and narrowly missing out on the quadruple.
2022/23: we're on 10 points from 8 games and almost everyone is either injured, or coming back from injury, or out of form.

There's mitigating circumstances for each of those of course and plenty of other teams have fallen off a cliff after a great season, but they've certainly all been back-to-back seasons of massive contrast.

This, not worried about the future, we will come good again in the 2nd half of this season and be better next season.  There's a lot of pant wetting on this forum, maybe it's an age thing, but I'm not panicking because some knobheads on Twitter are taking the piss out of us.

[Dave McCoy]

I hate to say it but... Klopp's last season at Dortmund springs to mind (from 2nd the previous season to near relegation halfway through before getting it together and finishing 7th)
Outside of that Mourinho at Chelsea the year after winning the title in 15/16 ?
There aren't many

I do think our drop off isn't quite as bad as the league table indicates - our xg is +0.47 this yeah which is in the 3rd to 6th range - and we've been pretty unlucky with the way certain things have gone in a few games this season (we're at the bottom end of the points we'd expect to have won with the performances we've produced)
However given we were really dominant in the league last season (something like +1.6 per 90 over the season which is crushing) it's clearly a big drop which must have a number of reasons

I actually think there are some similarities between now and Klopp's last season at Dortmund. Mainly in that while the numbers did lie and Dortmund weren't as bad as their results they also were no longer a title competing team, but just merely a top 4 team. Here you can argue that we're more in the 6-7th range instead of 10th which is better than the relegation zone Dortmund were in but we also have clearly dropped from title competing form regardless. The big difference now though is that Klopp left Dortmund instead of remaking that team whereas here at LFC that seems unthinkable due to the most recent extension so he'll get the chance to remake this LFC team unless things get really drastic.

[Aldo1988]

I actually think there are some similarities between now and Klopp's last season at Dortmund. Mainly in that while the numbers did lie and Dortmund weren't as bad as their results they also were no longer a title competing team, but just merely a top 4 team. Here you can argue that we're more in the 6-7th range instead of 10th which is better than the relegation zone Dortmund were in but we also have clearly dropped from title competing form regardless. The big difference now though is that Klopp left Dortmund instead of remaking that team whereas here at LFC that seems unthinkable due to the most recent extension so he'll get the chance to remake this LFC team unless things get really drastic.

Didn't he come out and say the 7 year thing is bullshit?

[Dave McCoy]

Didn't he come out and say the 7 year thing is bullshit?

Klopp? Yes he did. The bigger point is that regardless of similarities he's going to be here to build the next LFC team unlike with Dortmund. If he's built two title winners why can't he build a 3rd?

[Aldo1988]

Klopp? Yes he did. The bigger point is that regardless of similarities he's going to be here to build the next LFC team unlike with Dortmund. If he's built two title winners why can't he build a 3rd?

There was the usual Liverpool jump on after our bad start to the season, the press came out and made something out of nothing about Jurgen's 7th season.  We'll get better as the season gets on, I'm sure of it.  I'd happily bet anyone on here now that we get better rather than worse this season.  Deactivating accounts kind of bet., heard it all over the last few weeks, Ttent can't defend, Matip is done, Salah in declining, Hendo might be a racist and can't run around any more, Harvey is to slow and will never fit the system, Fab is too slow, Nunez is shite, VvD & Robbo got it as well, the only players who didn't get it were the ones that were injured!

[Son of Spion]

We've seen it before under different owners, managers and teams.

08/09: we narrowly miss out on the title under Benitez, finishing on 82 points and only losing 2 games all season.
09/10: we finish 7th on 63 points - a 19 point swing.

13/14: we narrowly miss out on the title under Brendan, finishing on 84 points.
14/15: we finish 6th on 62 points, with 12 defeats and a 22 point swing.

19/20: we win the league with 99 points.
20/21: we finish 3rd on 69 points - a 30 point swing.

2021/22: we miss out on the title on the final day, finishing on 92 points and narrowly missing out on the quadruple.
2022/23: we're on 10 points from 8 games and almost everyone is either injured, or coming back from injury, or out of form.

There's mitigating circumstances for each of those of course and plenty of other teams have fallen off a cliff after a great season, but they've certainly all been back-to-back seasons of massive contrast.

It could be worse. At least we haven't done a Manchester City in 1937/38.

Relegated the season after being champions.    The only club to ever do so too.

[redbyrdz]

It could be worse. At least we haven't done a Manchester City in 1937/38.

Relegated the season after being champions.    The only club to ever do so too.

Why have you said that!

[JRed]

Right. So we are saying the likes of Jota, Konate, Trent, Diaz cannot compete with that? Or are those players you mention ever getting to Van Dijk, Salah levels?

Let’s hope Van Dijk and Salah can get to Van Dijk and Salah levels.

[Iska]

If he's built two title winners why can't he build a 3rd?

Because building the third is going to be much, much harder?  He doesn’t have the advantage of playing high-intensity sides against low-intensity sides anymore, the other teams have all caught up.  If he does build a third, he’s going to have to do it in a different way.  Unless he comes up with another killer tactical evolution, that realistically means an across-the-board upgrade to the playing squad.

[whiteboots]

there is always something to worry about. but...



Firstly “the template”. A football team should realise the talents of those players available at the club, and those available to be brought in. It is not an end in itself, it is constantly evolving. Several first team players are not playing very well- this has nothing to do with “the template”.

Secondly football is cyclical, results are two thirds skill and judgement, a third luck, we have had a lot of luck in recent years, not least in Europe. Skill and judgment you can work on, luck you cannot.

Thirdly, we do not play in a league of one. We are playing in an era when our major competitor is backed by a Nation State, as are the new kids on the block, Newcastle who will also start to lure players who might otherwise have come to us. Chelsea have ridden ownership change well, and have appointed a new manager well, their new ownership looks full of ideas. Spurs had the courage, which FSG did not to build a purpose built high capacity high spec new stadium which will bankroll them for years to come. Ten hag will have Salford competing again in time. Klopp is not operating in a vacuum.

Klopp is a dynasty manager who will make mistakes but get a lot more right than he gets wrong. Football is about an entire season and there is still much to play for. Lets just enjoy he football, warts and all.

[Cafe De Paris]

The reality is you get what you pay for… yes we got some great deals done on the cheap but you can’t cheat the system forever and fsg need to inject a large amount of funding towards transfers. To think the club has been a regular in the champions league and playing in 4 European finals in the last 7 or so years bringing all that money into the club. So there is no excuse for not having made money. yet here we are scrabbling around for injured loan Players. Fkn shocking. What amazes me even more is the amount of fans still backing the owners. Unreal.

[duvva 💅]

It doesn’t feel like it but we’ve actually won 7 of our last 9 games. Granted the two defeats were to Leeds and Forest, which probably explains why it doesn’t feel like we’re on a decent run, but we are.

Hopefully we can make it 8 out of 10 against Soton. Clearly there are still things to fix but it’s not all doom and gloom or at least it shouldn’t be (until we lose to Soton obviously)

[Dave McCoy]

Wanted to compare last season's stats vs. this season so far just to see where things are really varying. Going to list the current seasons numbers first vs. last season.

Goals per game: 2.00 v 2.47
xG per game: 1.72 v 2.502
Goals against per game:  1.21 v .68
xG against per game: 1.39 v .98
Shot per game: 17.14 v 18.97
Shots allowed per game: 9.86 v 7.82
Possession: 62.1 v 62.7

[Barrow Shaun]

Wanted to compare last season's stats vs. this season so far just to see where things are really varying. Going to list the current seasons numbers first vs. last season.

Goals per game: 2.00 v 2.47
xG per game: 1.72 v 2.502
Goals against per game:  1.21 v .68
xG against per game: 1.39 v .98
Shot per game: 17.14 v 18.97
Shots allowed per game: 9.86 v 7.82
Possession: 62.1 v 62.7

Says it all for me - scoring/attacking less, conceding/more dodgy defending.

Get the lads back up front (Jota and Diaz) plus strengthen in midfield, and we should be just fine. I'm absolutely convinced that strengthening our midfield helps to sort out those other two areas, but then I've thought this about our midfield for a long time now. It's becoming obvious to everyone, not just us lot.

[nerdster4]

Turns out there was a lot to worry about

I think our best hope is to try to finish top 4 and see if one major midfield signing can be the foundation
We can build around

It’s clear from the World Cup the likes of hendo can still
Do a job with ‘legs’ around them

[Gnurglan]

Yes, we have reasons to worry. This PL season is all about saving a top four spot. That’s clearly disappointing. In May last year we competed for every trophy and now it feels like all trophies are out of reach. That may change, but we sure have a task on our hands.

Things should improve once we get at least one more attacking option available. If we compare with last season we had Mane available pretty much every week. That is a massive loss for us. This season reminds me of 20/21 when we struggled for options in defence. Now it’s in attack. But once we got those defenders back, things improved. I expect something similar now and I can’t wait to see Gapko in the side. We have a right to expect him to produce soon enough, something we can’t really do from someone like Carvalho (yet).

The reason to worry is the age of the squad. This is not 2018 where you could sense that this side would grow stronger with another year together. Milner was getting a bit on the old side, but even then we could see that his role was mainly as a backup. Now? We have too many players who are at their prime or past it. That Milner (and Henderson) still play so much is a sign of weakness. Credit to them for being available, but the necessary transition has not taken place. We are yet to replace what Wijnaldum was for us. As a squad we carry too many options that don’t add enough value and almost all of them are in CM.

Tonight, after losing to Brentford, it’s easy to see more negatives than positives. I think we have the basis for a good future, both this season and beyond. But we can’t avoid the elephant in the room anymore. Our midfield needs rebuilding and the sooner we start the better. If we were getting these results with Jones, Bajcetic and Elliott playing a lot in CM we could at least hope for an improvement over time.

When we are back to something like our best we’ll have 4-5 senior CMs playing 40 games/season. And a couple of them will be closer to 25 than 30 years of age. IMO that means Thiago and Fabinho stays. Pretty much all other senior CMs can be moved on (that is Henderson, Milner, Keita, AOC). I don’t want that to be seen as disrespectful to what they have done for us. I see it as necessary for us to get back to the top. Departures are crucial for our progress.

On a final note, this also means I think we are 1-2 new CMs away from being a very good side again.