Topic: The Klopp Template

[PaulF]

Well, and Virgil. But that was different circumstances.

#mbappe 2020

[ScouserAtHeart]

“The system under Klopp is made for Trent,” says another ex-Liverpool player, who now represents a lower league club where the manager constantly references Klopp’s European champions as the blueprint he wants to try to follow. The player thinks Alexander-Arnold has since emerged as one of the best passers in the world. “The number of times you see him switch play, it reminds me of Steven Gerrard. And he’s (Gerrard) the greatest player I’ve ever trained with.”

https://theathletic.com/1282997/2019/10/18/how-klopp-has-changed-the-game-using-full-backs/

Anyone guess who the player is? I'm trying to think of who it could be but can't come up with a name

[royhendo]

Guardian Football Weekly discussing how to neutralise Liverpool and whether Man Utd had that formula.

The fact that it’s a discussion tells you everything you need to know, and is perfectly timed for a set of more creative midfield options returning to fitness and offering flexibility.

[PaulF]

Guardian Football Weekly discussing how to neutralise Liverpool and whether Man Utd had that formula.

An £800m bus . Martin Atkinson and a coward on the var is as about right.

[BrandoLFC]

Guardian Football Weekly discussing how to neutralise Liverpool and whether Man Utd had that formula.

The fact that it’s a discussion tells you everything you need to know, and is perfectly timed for a set of more creative midfield options returning to fitness and offering flexibility.

It's Chris Wilder's formula for starters as I mentioned in the midfield thread.  It seems insulting to give it to Ole and ManU since Wilder seems to have more tactical nous in his finger than Ole has in his entirety.  To that end it seems effective under the assumption we have no Salah and it's a game away from home. 

Would have to go pull up all the games where Keita started last year to see how that affected Robbo's output.  In general something would have to give as you can't have Robbo bombing on if the midfielder isn't covering without leaving the team way more vulnerable.  It's just not as simple as putting in a different player or maybe it is?  Who knows.

[royhendo]

Is Robertson staying productive the only way for the side to be productive?

[royhendo]

Incidentally Keita is statistically our most disruptive midfielder (defensive actions per 90).

[killer-heels]

Is Robertson staying productive the only way for the side to be productive?

Are we not focussing on our full backs because they are productive, kind of like a striker who is on a very long run of form?

In yesterdays Sky interview Klopp mentioned getting the ball forward and he said we would get better. The way he said it seem to indicate that we have maybe some tactical or personnel (or both) tweaks lined up. Maybe.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Is Robertson staying productive the only way for the side to be productive?

No it's not. Keita and Ox help. When they aren't playing then we need to use the fullbacks. But we've shown various of ways of winning and creating chances. Once Keita and Ox are part of the side, you'll see more productivity and creativity ala yesterday when they came on.

[BazC]

Are we not focussing on our full backs because they are productive, kind of like a striker who is on a very long run of form?

In yesterdays Sky interview Klopp mentioned getting the ball forward and he said we would get better. The way he said it seem to indicate that we have maybe some tactical or personnel (or both) tweaks lined up. Maybe.

No, our fullbacks are productive because the system puts them in positions to be and we need them to be too.

On the midfield; Keita and Ox will bring that progression from the middle of the park. Their ball carrying through midfield was the reason Klopp brought them both here. It can’t be long now before we see Fabinho, Keita and Ox lining up together. I’m quietly hoping it happens in the next game. The key question with it is the defensive solidity. Keita still needs to sharpen up his fit into the system, but that’s only going to come with game time to sharpen up on. Ox also needs that given his lengthy absence. It’s going to take them a while to sharpen up to it, but I hope they get the opportunity to try and get there. It could add another layer to an already incredible football team.

[him_15]

We definitely need Keita and Ox to step up to provide more creatively and penetration in the middle, can't just rely our fullback all season.

[BrandoLFC]

Is Robertson staying productive the only way for the side to be productive?

I have no idea.  I'd guess it's fair to say right now it's dependent on Trent and Salah more than anyone else.  I'm not saying I have the answer but I think it's almost a statistical improbability that Gini and Hendo would have 3 (out of 55) assists last season with the amount of minutes they played, where they play and the amount of goals the team scored.  They're clearly being asked to stay back and cover whatever you think of them as players.

So just from a general balance standpoint something would have to change as you're removing the cover that allows those players (Trent and Robbo) to do what they do.  I think I've brought this up before in that for all the stick Pep gets he did rightly figure out after his first season that PL teams are too good at counter attacking as that's almost all they do and practice.  He then keeps a 3rd player back unless the other team is defending with all 11.  We do the same thing but it's a midfielder so the spacing is different and we are still vulnerable to that ball into the channel whereas they aren't since the FB is already back.

[sinnermichael]

Two years to the day since we were humiliated 4-1 by Spurs at Wembley. We've lost 4 league games out of 76 since. Remarkable what this group of players have achieved together really.

[RedSince86]

Two years to the day since we were humiliated 4-1 by Spurs at Wembley. We've lost 4 league games out of 76 since. Remarkable what this group of players have achieved together really.

That's a ridiculous stat.

What a team of Mentality Giants we have.

[royhendo]

I have no idea.  I'd guess it's fair to say right now it's dependent on Trent and Salah more than anyone else.  I'm not saying I have the answer but I think it's almost a statistical improbability that Gini and Hendo would have 3 (out of 55) assists last season with the amount of minutes they played, where they play and the amount of goals the team scored.  They're clearly being asked to stay back and cover whatever you think of them as players.

So just from a general balance standpoint something would have to change as you're removing the cover that allows those players (Trent and Robbo) to do what they do.  I think I've brought this up before in that for all the stick Pep gets he did rightly figure out after his first season that PL teams are too good at counter attacking as that's almost all they do and practice.  He then keeps a 3rd player back unless the other team is defending with all 11.  We do the same thing but it's a midfielder so the spacing is different and we are still vulnerable to that ball into the channel whereas they aren't since the FB is already back.

Sorry if that last reply read as provocative by the way - that wasn't my intention Brando. I'm just interested in it.

The problem, when you cut through it, is whether we're seen as predictable, so all we need to do is subvert that point of view by mixing it up, even for a spell. The 4-2-3-1 discussion floating round is pretty compelling on that front I reckon. Babu, formerly of this parish, has been talking about it quite nicely. https://twitter.com/babuyagu/status/1185895899840557056   and    https://twitter.com/babuyagu/status/1186273764285341696

He made the point that Gini was being effective on the half turn between the lines but that the minute McTominay got in behind him for a run up the park and a shot, he sat back further and risked it far less. The 4-2-3-1 is arguably more forgiving in that respect, and some might argue better suits the players we'd benefit from rotating in (Ox, Keita, Lallana). I think in that context maybe Gomez and Milner get time at full back (no bad thing)...

It's a nice discussion isn't it? If we solve this one we're in a pretty incredible spot as a side/squad.

[El Lobo]

Two years to the day since we were humiliated 4-1 by Spurs at Wembley. We've lost 4 league games out of 76 since. Remarkable what this group of players have achieved together really.

Even more remarkable with such a shite midfield!

[Legoland]

Even more remarkable with such a shite midfield!

Our midfield suits our requirements. It isn't shite. The basis of our defensive solidity has been that midfield, and the system has allowed for our fullbacks to be that productive. When we need creativity from midfield, and you start introducing the like of Ox and Keita I suspect while the midfield's productivity will go up, the productivity of our fullbacks will fall a bit because the players being tasked with making the penetrative passes will be the midfielders.

[royhendo]

[El Lobo]

Our midfield suits our requirements. It isn't shite. The basis of our defensive solidity has been that midfield, and the system has allowed for our fullbacks to be that productive. When we need creativity from midfield, and you start introducing the like of Ox and Keita I suspect while the midfield's productivity will go up, the productivity of our fullbacks will fall a bit because the players being tasked with making the penetrative passes will be the midfielders.

I know mate I was being facetious. You don’t achieve what we’ve done over the last 18 months without a very good midfield. You might win a CL with an average one, but to be so consistently excellent for such a long time just isn’t possible with an average midfield like some would have you believe ours is.

But.....we’ve got Naby and Ox fit now and clearly they weren’t bought in to sit on the bench. Hopefully over the next dozen or do games we’ll start to see that midfield evolving.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

The greatest fisherman of all time.

[hesbighesred]

Incidentally Keita is statistically our most disruptive midfielder (defensive actions per 90).

This is the big potential with Keita in our team. There's a tendency to think of attack/defence as either/or - if we gain creativity we lose it from midfield. But this isn't the case if the player you're bringing in is simply better all round. Alisson didn't just save more shots, he lets the d-line play higher and sets off attacks. Van Dijk made us better in the air, with set pieces at both ends, and in attack.

Keita can be the same - compared to our other options at 8 he can press better, dribble better and create more, without changing our style or sacrificing anything.

[royhendo]

He just needs to stay fit now doesn’t he Seb? This is a big chance for him.

[BrandoLFC]

I probably made at least 10-15 posts in Keita's thread last year about how he was being used differently after the Spurs away game and we weren't using him in a way that justified the money we spent.  Mainly revolving around the defend and transition aspect of his game which is what hesbighesred is talking about.  Until we see what the tactics are for all we know he could be pushed high up on the left like last year which while he's a good attacker he's not at the level of the front 3 or Shaqiri to really justify that.  Doubt it will matter for tomorrow but we'll see sooner or later.

[hesbighesred]

He just needs to stay fit now doesn’t he Seb? This is a big chance for him.

Hopefully, my fingers are crossed for it because he can honestly take this team up to yet another level.

[Knight]

I don't know if we'll win the league this season if Keita spends most of the rest of it as injured as he's been for the first 2 months of the season. But I'm pretty confident we'll win the league if he spends most of the rest of it as fit as he was in the period pre Barca last season. If our midfield can be both functional in terms of protecting the defence AND penetrative when the occasion demands it, what weaknesses will we have?

[redk84]

Our fullbacks have massively been highlighted this calendar year especially as the focus of our attacking supply to the front 3
So they will be coming under more pressure as teams look to adapt to this more and more. Results like Sunday will encourage them.

While I do feel we have a slight issue in the "big" away games that we need to address this season, the rest of the pack still seem to be getting dealt with.....so maybe we will see the emergence of some of our guys back from injury giving us a different dimension. But in the last few seasons under klopp we have tweaked our system throughout as the season develops and I am sure he will do the same this year.
The more options the better.

[royhendo]

For me it's the next step in their development, both collectively and individually - to learn to improvise within the imposed structures. That's what takes a Trent and a Robbo and elevates their football intelligence from an attacking perspective to a Marcelo (or dare I say it a Milner). I mean no disrespect to either of our fullbacks intended by the way - they've so much raw talent it's frightening - but if the little component units learn to respond to what's in front of it fully, not just in the way that's been drilled, then we're really onto something scary. I think just keeping the core of the side together for the medium term does that, but particularly for Robbo I think he's a little mired in working class hero mode. When he gets sight of goal he could do with the ice in his veins that he showed as a nipper. It's in there, but his blood's too high to access it just now. 

[Edit: bloody hell I shouldn't come on and post during meetings - the grammar on this is a disgrace.]

[PaulF]

I don't know if we'll win the league this season if Keita spends most of the rest of it as injured as he's been for the first 2 months of the season. But I'm pretty confident we'll win the league if he spends most of the rest of it as fit as he was in the period pre Barca last season. If our midfield can be both functional in terms of protecting the defence AND penetrative when the occasion demands it, what weaknesses will we have?

living in Everton's shadow?

[redk84]

For me it's the next step in their development, both collectively and individually - to learn to improvise within the imposed structures. That's what takes a Trent and a Robbo and elevates their football intelligence from an attacking perspective to a Marcelo (or dare I say it a Milner).

One thing that is noticeable in this squad compared to the squad that Klopp took over when he first came...
The football intelligence.

We are much smarter as a team and better at dealing with evolving problems on the pitch but there is room for improvement there.
The fullbacks obviously will with the more experience they have.....the rest of the team have it in abundance. Having a settled first 11 for the best part of 18 months has also helped as they know their own limitations and the system well. Its been a good organic growth so far and I just hope we stay lucky with injuries because there is potential for more to come from this team

[hesbighesred]

It's in there, but his blood's too high to access it just now. 

To be fair, one of the things I've liked most about Robbo is how, for me, he was too unwilling to use his right peg and rarely attacked the space available to him inside. He seemed one-dimensional in attack, albeit a fantastic dimension. This season and last it seems to me he's been using that space more often - a great example is the Salzburg game where the line is covered so he drives inside and keeps on driving to get on the end of Trent's pass. For Trent this kind of thing comes more naturally because a) he's played midfield at youth and senior level (albeit only a game) and b) he's got such an absurdly rounded skillset.

TL;DR - the willingness to work on slight weaknesses is a real feature of this team.

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

I'll say it after a win to reduce the slaughtering...

But does the Klopp Template include the worst substitutions by any manager in the history of sport. 

[Redcap]

There was an interesting Michael Cox article in The Athletic the other day about how United negated our fullbacks.

I can't share the whole article for obvious reasons, but the gist of the analysis was that United was able to negate our wingbacks by making them choose between pressing their wingbacks or staying back to mark United's forwards. When Robbo did push forward to press Wan-Bissaka one time, we conceded the goal (foul on Origi notwithstanding).

Essentially, the article posited that if you have fast forwards and centre halves that have enough confidence to beat a press, you're going to ask questions of our approach to the game.

The article did also say that this approach meant that United's centre-halves were left to do a lot against our forwards, which they nearly paid for.

As a neophyte to football tactics I couldn't see fault with the analysis, but I'd be keen to hear more learned views.

[1892tillforever]

I make it 45 straight wins in all comps when we score 2+ goals now (Could be completely wrong since I researched it myself). Not sure what it means other than we are boss at both ends 

[royhendo]

There was an interesting Michael Cox article in The Athletic the other day about how United negated our fullbacks.

I can't share the whole article for obvious reasons, but the gist of the analysis was that United was able to negate our wingbacks by making them choose between pressing their wingbacks or staying back to mark United's forwards. When Robbo did push forward to press Wan-Bissaka one time, we conceded the goal (foul on Origi notwithstanding).

Essentially, the article posited that if you have fast forwards and centre halves that have enough confidence to beat a press, you're going to ask questions of our approach to the game.

The article did also say that this approach meant that United's centre-halves were left to do a lot against our forwards, which they nearly paid for.

As a neophyte to football tactics I couldn't see fault with the analysis, but I'd be keen to hear more learned views.

Not gonna claim to be learned but the counter to it is the sweeping keeper, recovery pace in the two centre half positions, and a third auxiliary centre half in the deepest midfield position. That way the keeper can sweep, and the centre halves can split comfortably if the whippets go wide, while cover drops in to the gap it leaves.

Alternatively you let your full backs cover back and create from the midfield, which is how Klopp dealt with it on the day. It's easy to forget we should have won!

[No666]

Alternatively you let your full backs cover back and create from the midfield, which is how Klopp dealt with it on the day. It's easy to forget we should have won!

Indeed. I think it's forgotten by the wider world how the current system emerged, and that Klopp is backing himself to manage a small squad effectively because of the dividend in team spirit (and because we're not financially doped).

[jepovic]

There was an interesting Michael Cox article in The Athletic the other day about how United negated our fullbacks.

I can't share the whole article for obvious reasons, but the gist of the analysis was that United was able to negate our wingbacks by making them choose between pressing their wingbacks or staying back to mark United's forwards. When Robbo did push forward to press Wan-Bissaka one time, we conceded the goal (foul on Origi notwithstanding).

Essentially, the article posited that if you have fast forwards and centre halves that have enough confidence to beat a press, you're going to ask questions of our approach to the game.

The article did also say that this approach meant that United's centre-halves were left to do a lot against our forwards, which they nearly paid for.

As a neophyte to football tactics I couldn't see fault with the analysis, but I'd be keen to hear more learned views.

I don’t think it was down to special tactics, we just had a poor gane. Our fullbacks in particular were far below their usual level. Something about OT.

[Dim Glas]

I'll say it after a win to reduce the slaughtering...

But does the Klopp Template include the worst substitutions by any manager in the history of sport. 

Not a slaughterning, but of all times to even ask it, is after recent games when the substitutions are spot on?

By the way, every manager seems to get hammered about subsitutions by their teams own fans, who somehow all know best, which always amuses me. 

[royhendo]

Indeed. I think it's forgotten by the wider world how the current system emerged, and that Klopp is backing himself to manage a small squad effectively because of the dividend in team spirit (and because we're not financially doped).

It's amazing we got to see the type of side evolve that we always dreamed of eh?

[Legoland]

Would be interesting to see how often we've implemented the counter-press and against which sides...

Klopp mentioned that the counter-press was back last night as though it was unintended but I think it was very much intended. My thoughts are that we don't use the counter-press as often this season to conserve energy for the number of games we have to play and really only use it against oppositions that test us. It would be interesting to look at some stats that either back up or refute this claim.

[royhendo]

Would be interesting to see how often we've implemented the counter-press and against which sides...

Klopp mentioned that the counter-press was back last night as though it was unintended but I think it was very much intended. My thoughts are that we don't use the counter-press as often this season to conserve energy for the number of games we have to play and really only use it against oppositions that test us. It would be interesting to look at some stats that either back up or refute this claim.

Anfield Index have been very good on tracking this over time. Last season we became way more passive because, I guess, we had the luxury of players who could make different set ups work. That same group is even more solid now and can grind out three points from a winning position, so yeah - I think your intuition is not only right, it's 100% borne out by the stats.