Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1190290 times)

royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #360 on: August 31, 2008, 09:56:45 pm »
i think it's fair to worry about rafa's appetite for a more adventurous approach and it's something to keep an eye on.

we're (as gerrard put it the other day) 'in second gear' at best. we're probably actually in first gear a lot of the time right now and players reknowned for their passing ability are finding touch as often as they find their teammates. i'd like to see us in third and fourth gear more often, and then i'd like to start worrying about whether rafa has the appetite to use the fifth and sixth gears when given the chance.

Offline BazC

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #361 on: August 31, 2008, 10:11:28 pm »
Yeah, the starting conditions haven't been ideal at all. 3 of our regular players last season not available, Gerrard not fit and also playing deeper than he should be because of the absentees... I'm praying that Gerrard and Torres are 100% for our next game, and that we finally have all the players ready to be selected. I'm anticipating (hoping for I guess) Torres up front with Gerrard (right), Keane (central) and Riera/Babel (left) in support, with Alonso and Masch holding. If that gets going, I reckon we'll be putting in some very good attacking performances.
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royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #362 on: August 31, 2008, 10:57:44 pm »
honestly baz i think we'll see a belt and braces line up against man u, and we might pay for it.

playing carragher gives you power against the likes of carew and the big lad for liege, but you lose something in the equation. likewyse, kuyt runs all day and maybe neutralises an attacking full back to some extent, but again, you tend to lose something in the equation.

we'll go safety first you'd think and the knives will get even sharper for rafa. there was never really any doubt about it though, was there? we need to see the quality emerge and we need to address the problems we have (especially defending set pieces which is just plain nerve-wracking to watch at the moment).

arguably it's level 1 football just now cos we're not hitting sides effectively on the break at all. it's our 'siege mentality' that's getting us through.

Offline BazC

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #363 on: August 31, 2008, 11:24:09 pm »
I'd love it if Rafa goes all out against Man U. I said earlier in a post (think the thread it was in got deleted though) that we need a massive defribillation to our confidence. Rafa setting out like he did against Chelsea at Anfield last season- really attacking them and going for the win- will surely instil some confidence in the team- even if we don't get a good result?

I personally think this is the perfect game for Rafa to try it. He's been conservative against them lot for the last 4 seasons and I think we've got 1 point out for all those league games... I think it's safe to say this is one of the games most of us could have 'written off' in our list of 'games we should win'. I know it may sound a bit shit saying this... but if we lose, it's probably expected. I want to see us try and really take the game to them. Have Torres, Gerrard and Keane trying to fuck over Ferdinand and his chums in their defence rather than the other way round. Get Mascherano fired up like he was last time. Have every fucking player in Red go out to win. And if we win, then automatically we're on top of the world. If we lose- well I think we'd at least score 1 or 2 if we went for them- then at least we went down trying to win it rather than a conservative set up.

Not only that, but the Mancs aren't exactly playing at the top of their game either. Perfect time, like I said. Would be the perfect 'defibrillation' win that we need.
« Last Edit: September 1, 2008, 02:29:31 am by BazC »
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #364 on: September 1, 2008, 02:26:21 am »
Defibrilation win...like the Inter game last season?  Personally I'm dreading we'll need another Barnsley or Beşiktaş away to give the team a kick up the arse - by which time it might be too late.

Sadly BazC with the way we're playing I'd lay odds that Rafa will go for a safety-first approach, especially if both Torres and Gerrard are out injured.  I was really looking forward to last night to see how we'd do with Masch and Lucas back, but while we looked a lot better than Liege we still failed to make use of the space between the midfielders and the forwards...the space Gerrard usually makes those blistering runs through.

Anyone fancy a punt on Arshavin if the Riera deal falls through?  :P
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Offline BazC

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #365 on: September 1, 2008, 02:41:23 am »
I dunno... I'm putting all my faith in the fact Rafa hasn't yet had a full team to call upon- and whilst the players he has put out, should have performed better, fact is, we have still yet to see the first team 'proper'... Gerrard, Keane and Torres in attack and Xabi and Masch holding. I'd also like to see Agger and Skrtel in the next game...

There's too much quality in our team for it to be so shit, and I really hope Rafa has faith in them and goes to win the game- set the players out where they'll be at the optimum, and then let the attackers attack the Mancs and pin them back. Get these fucking players fired up a bit for fucks sake! Rafa talks about having the right mentality- but you can instil that into these players as well. Just go all out for the win...

If these players and staff haven't had a kick up the arse watching that shite for the last few weeks, then there isn't any hope for the title- it would just mean the mentality isn't there, and I include the whole lot here- players, the coaches and Rafa. Their only motivation should come from watching how this club has fallen away, rather than an upset in a match. If it even has to take an upset then it's a waste of fucking time!
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royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #366 on: September 13, 2008, 10:41:38 pm »
so... some encouraging signs today eh?

hopefully that infuses the squad with confidence and lets the composure and cohesion come through a little - we still fell a little short at times on that front but it was promising.

it would be superb if aurelio stayed fit by the way - i know we've been saying that a long time now, but he had an impressive game, and it showed how the 'width' solution is supposedly being solved. it's going to come with time, and there was a lot of room for improvement today (quite a few individual lapses of concentration, a few 'quality' issues when chances arose, and so forth), but it was encouraging to start against that side without our two key players and actually start showing signs of the 'crushing' style we've hoped for. at times in the second half they were completely outclassed. that's not an easy thing to do to that standard of opponent.

anyway, thoughts? did we hint at level 3 potential?

Offline kopindian

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #367 on: September 14, 2008, 07:40:14 am »
Second half was pretty.But were helped by Mancs as they didn't have much of a presence in midfield.We are improving stedily and its fair to say that Ferguson didn't know what hit them in second half.We play better as a team without Gerrard(Gerrard in CM).

royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #368 on: September 14, 2008, 09:07:44 am »
ferguson's comments... could you say they were symptomatic of a manager whose team had been given a 'crushing' for extended periods?

he used words like: pressed, bothered, harried, they were the better side, we couldn't cope with them, and so forth...

when it's done well, we are a fucker of a side to play. if we had better quality and technique in a couple of key moments... kuyt had another jeckle and hyde performance IMO 

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #369 on: September 14, 2008, 09:41:36 am »
ferguson's comments... could you say they were symptomatic of a manager whose team had been given a 'crushing' for extended periods?

he used words like: pressed, bothered, harried, they were the better side, we couldn't cope with them, and so forth...

Absolutely, a mate thought we'd be the ones getting embarrassed today. So glad he was made to eat his words.

Quote
when it's done well, we are a fucker of a side to play. if we had better quality and technique in a couple of key moments... kuyt had another jeckle and hyde performance IMO 

Kuyt looked more comfortable playing up front yesterday and I'd like to see it more often. It'd be nice to have a main 4 strikers as Torres, Keane, Kuyt and Babel. I still don't see Babel as a left winger, would possibly work well on the right though but I think he's definitely a natural hole player like Benayoun should be.
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #370 on: September 14, 2008, 11:45:38 am »
We looked a lot better yesterday (and won) due to three factors, which as it happens were all discussed on here in varying degrees:

1. Constant, productive pressing by the midfield and the strikers
2. Very good interplay and penetration on the left flank
3. Xabi and Masch actually venturing past the halfway line

#1 allowed us to unsettle United after they scored and regain control of the game, an amazing feat of mental strength and sheer will from our players.  #3 was the direct cause of our two goals, but I think that #2 allowed #3 to happen because it created space in the middle and dragged Carrick/Scholes out of position, allowing Xabi and Masch the freedom to push forward without worrying about a quick counterattack.
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Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #371 on: September 14, 2008, 02:47:53 pm »
ferguson's comments... could you say they were symptomatic of a manager whose team had been given a 'crushing' for extended periods?

he used words like: pressed, bothered, harried, they were the better side, we couldn't cope with them, and so forth...

when it's done well, we are a fucker of a side to play. if we had better quality and technique in a couple of key moments... kuyt had another jeckle and hyde performance IMO 
Totally agree, when we press sides in their own half and don't give them a second but also add composure when on the ball were a very very good side. Thought Fabio was tremendous meself, in fact I just love watching him play for us, in an ideal world he'd stay fit all season.

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #372 on: September 14, 2008, 03:08:09 pm »
when it's done well, we are a fucker of a side to play. if we had better quality and technique in a couple of key moments... kuyt had another jeckle and hyde performance IMO 

I thought he had a generally good performance interspersed, as ever with Dirk, with a few moments where his technique let him down.  I thought he was unlucky with his chance late on. He did everything right really but van der Sar pulled off a great save. Contrast that with Babel's goal where he fluffs the shot horribly but the resultant looping bounce proved to be just what was needed to avoid the players on the line.
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royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #373 on: September 14, 2008, 05:04:15 pm »
that's true VDM but contrast both with the Tevez goal and the other chance he had directly after our goal. Paul Doyle at the Guardian argues that Tevez is basically Kuyt with a bit more quality (£20m more i'm not sure about, but a little more) and those two moments exemplified that I thought. If we could start burying these kind of gilt-edged chances - sheesh - our dominance would really show. 

It'll come though.

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #374 on: September 14, 2008, 05:19:31 pm »
Very happy with the performance and the result (of course!) and it was more or less what I wanted to see; just attack the fuckers.

10 minutes in and it was much of the same from us. After that, our players just slipped up a gear and our attacking play was just sublime.

Last year I remember the Chelsea at Anfield performance was exciting for what it could mean; we attacked them and it was an open game. Yesterday it was the same. But we were very good at keeping the ball in the middle and attacking 3rds. Doing that against the best fucking defensive set up in Europe last season? Fucking profound.

More of that Riera- I think his display was exactly what I wanted to see. Looking to play the one touch passes, and link with the fullback behind him and also knew when to take on the fullback in front of him. Carry on like that and he'll be immense for us.

I was happy with the way we kept the ball and created a couple of chances- especially down the wings, with Mascherano, Kuyt, Babel and Riera making mince meat of the fullbacks they faced. There was great support from Alonso and Mascherano (when he wasn't marauding forward himself!) and even Skrtel on occassion- he had a decent effort at goal at one point I think.

I hope it's a sign of things to come. A sign like the one the Chelsea game last season could have, but didn't, turn out to be.

Very happy with what I saw... now all we need is Kuyt shooting across the keeper (could have got himself a brace if he had) and Keane making connections with the ball. Get that confidence flowing in attack and we should be set to challenge. Should be.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #375 on: September 14, 2008, 05:31:08 pm »
Very happy with what I saw... now all we need is Kuyt shooting across the keeper (could have got himself a brace if he had) and Keane making connections with the ball. Get that confidence flowing in attack and we should be set to challenge. Should be.

Agree with everything apart from that bit really. For his chance to make it 3-1 at the end I thought he did the right thing. He placed it where the keeper was coming from. The idea being that he cannot change direction to make the save.  I think the Tevez comparison is a good one, when I see Kuyt I see a player who is clearly trying to do all the right things it's just that sometimes his execution lets him down.
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #376 on: September 14, 2008, 05:35:50 pm »
Agree with everything apart from that bit really. For his chance to make it 3-1 at the end I thought he did the right thing. He placed it where the keeper was coming from. The idea being that he cannot change direction to make the save.  I think the Tevez comparison is a good one, when I see Kuyt I see a player who is clearly trying to do all the right things it's just that sometimes his execution lets him down.

I saw Kuyt shoot at the near post where VdS was... and thought if he had gone for the far corner he'd have had more of a chance. The first one at the corner was fair enough I suppose- it was congested. Agree with the Tevez comparison- have said it myself- and have thrown Rooney in that category as well actually.
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #377 on: September 14, 2008, 05:39:03 pm »
Agreed on Rooney.  I think that is where Man U potentially will struggle.  They have three brilliant attacking players but no real finisher.  They got away with it last season because Ronaldo stepped up to the plate.

Berbatov may make the difference, although to me he is another in the same mould really.
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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #378 on: September 14, 2008, 06:19:13 pm »
If we can attack man utd like that, why couldn't we go for it against Villa rather than settling for the 0-0, just hope them 2 dropped points won't matter come the end of the season because that game was certainly there for the taking.
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #379 on: September 14, 2008, 08:46:17 pm »
Agreed on Rooney.  I think that is where Man U potentially will struggle.  They have three brilliant attacking players but no real finisher.  They got away with it last season because Ronaldo stepped up to the plate.

Berbatov may make the difference, although to me he is another in the same mould really.

Agree again- I think we could potentially have a better attack than Man U saying all that- but where we might not realise that potential is the mentality we have in attack. Yesterday was promising in that respect, but then games like Villa (as mentioned above) are the exact opposite. Hopefully we'll see more performances like yesterdays though- an attacking strategy that gives a bit more freedom to the attackers rather than shackling them with overly tactical instructions.

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #380 on: September 15, 2008, 11:08:32 am »
Agree again- I think we could potentially have a better attack than Man U saying all that- but where we might not realise that potential is the mentality we have in attack. Yesterday was promising in that respect, but then games like Villa (as mentioned above) are the exact opposite. Hopefully we'll see more performances like yesterdays though- an attacking strategy that gives a bit more freedom to the attackers rather than shackling them with overly tactical instructions.

To be fair though, there's a world of difference between playin Villa on the back of a run of poor form, press and fans on our back, all the pressure on us to perform, added Barry bollocks, Gerrard injured, and then Torres off after 20 minutes. Maybe we could have been more expansive, but mentally speaking we were clearly nowhere near the level we were against United, where we'd had a bit of time to prepare and in some ways the pressure was far less (maybe not on getting a result, but at least in terms of performance...no-one was going to go ape-shit critical of Rafa and the lads if we'd played relatively poorly and got a good result).

Definite level 3 signs though, and you could see our high intensity pressing game at it's finest. I'm also becoming more and more convinced that Barry would be a great signing for us. I love Alonso as a player, but for me the comparison between his performance and Mash's was very telling on Saturday.

Mash was dominant in defense, and as soon as that platform was achieved he was also stunning in attack. His passing was almost Xabi-like..always spreading the play, but able to chip/play it through with delicacy, vision and skill. Somehow though, and it seems more with every match, he is adding a peak years Roy Keane like ability to drive us forward with some great runs, bursting from deeper and totally changing the complexion of the match, as he did for the second goal.

Xabi, on the other hand, was excellent doing his Xabi-thing, but my worry is that no matter how well he can stay deeper and ping great balls about, in our current system I'd take a hit on that passing in exchange for the stamina, running, mobility, versatility and most importantly the pitch coverage of a Barry or Mash, I really would.

Maybe Xabi seems more mobile for Spain because they play so patiently? For them he seems able to use his skills around the box a lot more, which I am desperate for him to do for us, but it just never seems to happen. I think a problem is that back in the day, teams were not so defensive against us...he always had space to play his long balls into. It's not the same these days. I'm beginning to think that as we develop further, in his own way I wonder if he isn't as hampered by his limitations as Kuyt and Carra, with the fatal blow that he lacks the versatility to be as useful in the squad as those two?

Anyway, sorry about that...he's still a magnificent player, and I should be being positive. Riera was great, and while I'm no wingers freak, I was wrong in previous assesments. Clearly midfield domination was a huge part of the problem, but there's no denying the difference Reira made, even in 80 minutes of one game. I think it's important to note he isn't an out and out traditional winger, but just having a natural there did give us much more balance and threat.

Importantly, and despite his lack of pace, his height and technique and the way he played suggest he could be a very useful emergency outlet for us...we actually now have more than one target to aim at if we want/need to 'hoof' it from the back.

I also loved his passing intelligence. Reminded me actually of what I hoped for from Leto, in some ways more like a second striker with his height and ability to play little perfectly weighted passes around. Great to see how obviously him and Aurelio relished playing together, and also great that from looking weak we now - with Riera, Aurelio, Dossena and Babel - look to have a really impressive diversity of options on that side. R&A, D&B look like natural, balanced pairings to me, with A&B ideal if we want to play narrow, while D&R look potentially less solid in defence, but really threatening going forward.

I'm really looking forward to seeing Degen on the other side too. Just like Arbeloa seems more balanced playing with a Benny, Pennant or even a Keane or Gerrard (namely an out and out attacker) I wonder if Degen/Kuyt might prove similar in terms of the pair bringing the best out of each other and becoming greater than the sum of their parts?

Anyway, it's all really really positive, especially given that we haven't seen anywhere near top form from Gerrard and Torres, I have huge hopes for Lucas if he gets a chance in Xabi's position, Agger should not be forgotten, and a number of potentially very dangerous level 3 type players like Babel, Dossena and Keane should also improve significantly as the season goes on.

Keane in particular is, I think, no more than a goal away from becoming a very, very danerous cog in our machine. I wasn't totally certain about his signing, but there is no doubt he gives huge amounts between the lines, and I think Saturday showed his worth too. I know his finishing was poor, but I think just having that presense of a proven dangerous striker, (with of course the experience workrate and, finishing aside top forward display from Kuyt), meant that unlike in previous years we still carried a big threat without our biggest players, and the rest of the team clearly had confidence in them too. The leadership he so clearly brings to what is still a young side is a massive positive too.

In fact, he and Kuyt were good enough that it looks like we may be able to rest Gerrard and Torres though choice at times this season, and the ability to keep those two fit and fresh for big games could be huge. Gerrard in particular is one who always seems to play superbly after he's been rested...perhaps no wonder given the insane amount of football he's played over the years.


« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 11:16:31 am by hesbighesred »
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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #381 on: September 15, 2008, 09:54:21 pm »
Robbie Keane is another player with good technique and soft feet whose addition only improves our ability to camp in the other team's final third. He finds space, he manipulates the ball well, and he's capable of doing serious damage in the tight spaces between the lines. Which brings us to...


Spot on.

It is one of the most tactically astute peices of writing I've read.
You what lad?!

royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #382 on: September 15, 2008, 10:21:18 pm »
elsombreroman - where's the image from? cheers by the way ;D

anyway, some great points above again gents.

one thing's been sticking in my mind - Rafa said something along the lines of 'for a few years now we've been the better team but they capitalised on our mistakes... this time we didn't make any mistakes'. for me it's not quite true (the carra backpass and gerrard's brain fart that led to the giggs shot for example) but for the most part the mistakes weren't fatal and it was good to see our concentration hold out. when we got to near half time and full time my heart was still in my mouth because we found ourselves conceding set pieces or backing on to our own box, but this time it was calmer somehow. hopefully we're seeing a new self-assuredness to our set piece play and our concentration eh?

but those things are the basics i guess and honestly having watched the game again i'm convinced it's developing nicely (from a 'level 3 please Rafa' perspective).

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #383 on: September 15, 2008, 10:38:01 pm »
when we got to near half time and full time my heart was still in my mouth because we found ourselves conceding set pieces or backing on to our own box, but this time it was calmer somehow. hopefully we're seeing a new self-assuredness to our set piece play and our concentration eh?

but those things are the basics i guess and honestly having watched the game again i'm convinced it's developing nicely (from a 'level 3 please Rafa' perspective).

To be fair we're a different side when we have the lead. It'd be interesting to see a comeback stat, I think I've made that point elsewhere...it's very, very rare that we let a lead slip. I've always thought Man U would come very unstuck chasing the game against us, given that we're actually very, very effective at neutralising their attacks. There was nearly 20 minutes after Babel's goal. Normally that's the cue for twenty minutes of intense Man U pressure, against anyone really. It's to our immense credit that they didn't even manage a spell of pressure, never mind bombardment. We looked by far the most likely to get the 4th goal, and indeed probably would have but for a surprisingly unremarked upon despicable professional foul on Keane by Vidic.
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #384 on: September 15, 2008, 10:43:16 pm »
great point - crushing indeed HBHR eh?

i guess it proves we can do it, so now we need to see signs of doing it consistently.

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #385 on: September 15, 2008, 10:52:40 pm »
great point - crushing indeed HBHR eh?

i guess it proves we can do it, so now we need to see signs of doing it consistently.

Absolutely. Hopefully it's a fitness issue as much as anything, what with Gerrard injured and Torres injured Vs Villa etc we haven't been our usual 'in your face' selves before the Man U match.

Still, perhaps my biggest positive from the Man U match, and one I have never seen in a fixture between us, was the way they started fluffing passes when under no pressure at all...kind of like we did against Liege (who did a very good 'us' on us), leading to numerous instances of their players having little goes at each other...grumpy faces and WTF?? FFS!! type gestures. Evil slime they may be, but they tend to have a very strong team spirit, it was absolutely fantastic to see them getting all pissy at each other. Fergie's face at the end was magnificent, so bitter that I saw a pickled onion in the crowd behind him saying to a lemon '...now that's bitter.'
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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #386 on: September 15, 2008, 10:53:25 pm »
Fair points hesbighesred. Can't agree with the Barry/Alonso thing though. For me, there's absolutely no need for it... Xabi's good enough, he just needs to play more. I also don't agree that he should be marauding forward. Leave that to Gerrard, Mascherano and Lucas when they're playing- Xabi's role is, and always should be, to sit deeper and move the ball on from the defence and provide that vital link to the attackers. I absolutely hate seeing the long balls forward from our defenders...

Also, I don't think Masch is as good as Xabi at distribution from the defenders. In fact, he's very prone to losing the ball in our defensive third, and that's caused us problems many times. Sure he is capable of spreading the ball, but you'll still see him make mistakes quite regularly- and he did make one on Saturday when he lost the ball in a dangerous position. I'd rather see him doing what he does so well; ball at his feet and running at the opposition. With players like Gerrard, Keane, Kuyt and (hopefully) Riera able to drop deep to support him when he does that, it'll be dangerous. I hope he works on his shooting, because if that improves, he'll definitely get a handful of goals like the one he scored for us last season. Not only that, but he'll make them as well like he did on Saturday (well, technically it was an assist by Kuyt, but Masch did so fucking well in the build up to our 2nd...)

The football was brilliant at times on Saturday and I think a big reason was because Xabi and Masch had players putting in decent performances in front of them. There was also no injured Gerrard, who quite frankly, was a massive liability when he was playing at the start of the season. A fit Gerrard, Riera playing as well as Saturday and Keane doing what he does and we'll easily be able to step up a couple of gears. Torres would have loved some of those balls from our midfielders on Saturday, and we carry on like that he'll be laughing all the way to the Golden Boot.

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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #387 on: September 15, 2008, 11:23:34 pm »
Re Barry/Alonso.

I realise I'm in the minority with that view, which is fair enough. Alonso's still a phenomenally classy player, and there was a 20 minute spell that really stood out for me where he was controlling the pace and distribution beautifully. I've just downloaded the match so I'll try and pay more attention to Xabi. This'll be about the first time I've watched a match in full again so I'm interested to see if my impressions change at all, obviously I'd be happy to be wrong about Xabi.

Perhaps what it is is that I have a bit of a vision of Barry doing down the left what Mash does down the right...when we're defending he's a strong tackling holding midfielder, but he is capable of carrying the ball forward, quick passing on the ground, and able to move into space out wide an put in devastating crosses. I just see a perfect and natural balance from any two out of Barry/Lucas/Mash that I don't quite see with Alonso, but there again that's because Alonso undoubtedly offers something that hardly any other player in the world does, I'm just not sure that something is needed enough in the way we set up to be worth the things he lacks.

I've got to disagree about Mash's passing too, no he's not Xabi (who is?), but I honestly don't think he gives the ball away very often at all, and I struggle to remember times he's put us in danger with his passing.

That said though there is an element of bias there. I loved Mash before he joined us, was delighted when he did, and I've been raving about him since about 10 minutes into his debut....from which point on he's done nothing but improve. It's frightening (for our opponents :)) that he's only 24, in a position where he should keep improving for another 5 years at least.

Still, I think we can both agree that some of his attacking passes have been very, very impressive this season so far. The chip for Keane against Villa immediately springs to mind. It always boggles my mind when people write off Mash as being just a destroyer, as if Makelele ever came out with balls of that technique and vision, or as if a side like Argentina with the wealth of midfield option's they have would feel the need to play such a one dimensional player in a role they've always seen as being as important in attack as in defense. The passing's always been there, and you (hopefully used) to see a lot more of it for Argentina due to the excellent movement of their front players.

Agree about his running from deep though, it's phenomenal to watch and that's one aspect of his game that's improved under Rafa, and just keeps getting better and better. He has incredible intelligence in knowing when to make those runs too, I can't remember him ever having left us badly exposed because of one.

As for his shooting, you're right it would be great if he could get more accurate with his long shooting. I think we will also see him score more as our attack improves, I could see him scoring a lot in situations where teams are defending very deep, we have a lot of pressure and eventually someone pulls it back to that random player running from deep. It's something Arsenal are great at, and Mascherano is capable of phenomenal accuracy (as he showed in the Copa America) when he can hit it in or on the very edge of the box, when he doesn't need to put great power on it.

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #388 on: September 15, 2008, 11:57:34 pm »
Don't get me wrong; I don't think Masch's distribution is crap- on the contrary, it's very good for a player who is dubbed a destroyer, like you say. But, he does definitely make mistakes and very sloppy passes in dangerous areas. I noticed it on Saturday once and against Villa as well- and he does do it fairly regularly. By regularly, I mean not in the same match, but you'll see him play a very bad pass every now and then which gives the opponents the ball in such a bad area that they could score very quickly from it. That's the reason why I don't think Masch could take up Xabi's place in the team- I do think he's prone to making a sloppy pass. Xabi, whilst he will make sloppy passes, will pretty much always make them when he's trying an attacking pass- for example a long through ball, or a diagonal cross field ball.

Barry would be the same as Alonso in terms of effect on our team, in my opinion, which is why I said at the time that I thought he was a good player, but I really didn't see why Rafa would want to swap Xabi for him. The talk of 'balance' has been brought up- which is a pretty crap reason to spend almost £20m on a player in my opinion- and I think the most likely reason was that Barry was English and Rafa hoped to make a net profit when buying Barry and selling Xabi. Money he could have spent on an attacking midfielder.
 
Now that we've got Riera, Babel, Keane and Yossi I'm happy though- I think they're good enough to work with Gerrard and Torres as long as they've not got the ball and chain of too much tactical responsibilities. I think that aspect will be important...
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #389 on: September 16, 2008, 12:36:00 am »
Just watched the first 40 minutes again, have to say I was wrong about Alonso, he's been absolutely superb so far, just not as obvious as Mascherano.

Have to say a huge word of praise for Kuyt too, Alonso was finding him in dangerous areas time and time again, and Kuyt's first time flicks from those passes were excellent. Very interesting to watch that right side too, great interchange with Keane, Kuyt and Benni all turning up there, and swapping each others roles. Keane and Kuyt together is interesting too, neither was a 9 or 10, the were swapping that role between them (and Benny in ten) very often. Could be a clue Re Torres and Keane, if they could interchange like that with both on form there isn't a defense in the world that could handle it.

Take your point now Re Mash, you're right, he's certainly not unreliable, but he does seem to have occasional lapses which can be very dangerous.

Regarding Barry, theres a couple of posts from Mimi here:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=227988.msg4802259#msg4802259

which explain the Barry Vs Alonso absolutely perfectly for me, well worth a read.
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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #390 on: September 16, 2008, 02:18:28 am »
Yeah, was very impressed by Kuyt, Keane and Yossi myself. Moreso Kuyt- I've been very critical of him when talking about his capability to play at another level of an attacking and passing game- but games like Saturday show me the times I'm wrong. Still not consistant enough for me to change my mind about him being a first team player though... especially now. With Keane on the scene and Babel's continuing development, Kuyt probably won't be a regular. This is without even considering Riera and Yossi.... I really hope he carries on playing like that though.

On Alonso; that's the thing with him- he does the things very well but his contribution isn't always as obvious as a crunching sliding tackle or 25 yard shot leaving the keeper at full stretch... he has seriously been playing like he did on Saturday for the majority of his games since the last quarter of last season. Sure there have been some games he's played shit, but on the flipside, there have been games where he's truly looked a class above. Generally though, he's been the same as he was on Saturday- always looking to play the link man and get our play going from the back.
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #392 on: September 16, 2008, 09:25:11 am »
On Alonso; that's the thing with him- he does the things very well but his contribution isn't always as obvious as a crunching sliding tackle or 25 yard shot leaving the keeper at full stretch... he has seriously been playing like he did on Saturday for the majority of his games since the last quarter of last season. Sure there have been some games he's played shit, but on the flipside, there have been games where he's truly looked a class above. Generally though, he's been the same as he was on Saturday- always looking to play the link man and get our play going from the back.

It's the pace with which he links play that Liverpool would miss if he went. It's not a word people associate with Alonso because he lacks footspeed. But I think it's the defining feature of his play. I was going to write a post on this after the Sunderland game but there are already about 500 on Alonso out there! His contribution that afternoon was crucial because it made the team tick over at a far faster rate than it had done with a Plessis-Gerrard midfield. Because of the quickness with which the simple things were done everyone suddenly had more space to play in.

That pace comes from three things. 1. Great technique - in particular a tendency to kill the ball with his left foot and instantly pass with his right. 2. A special ability to look up and retain a 3-D image of the state of play and its likely evolution over the next few seconds, which allows him to make 'blind' passes which are completely safe. 3. Arrogance - of the best kind. He knows that technically he's the best player on the park and therefore goes in search of the ball where others might be tempted to hide. 

I would build the team around Alonso (obviously!). He's a very good player now. But the better the players are around him - like Mascherano - the more devastating Alonso's impact is likely to be. If a player with sound technique takes up intelligent positions - no matter how apparently obscure - Alonso will find them.   

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royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #393 on: September 16, 2008, 11:16:02 am »
hmmm - I think that describes Alonso at his best but I'm not convinced he's done that consistently - the away game in Liege wasn't at the level you mention Yorky

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #394 on: September 16, 2008, 11:41:19 am »
hmmm - I think that describes Alonso at his best but I'm not convinced he's done that consistently - the away game in Liege wasn't at the level you mention Yorky

Actually I'd beg to differ. If you care to watch it again (you'd be mad; I wouldn't  :P) you should notice that Alonso was always looking to get the ball from the back and move it to the attackers and as yorky rightly points out- he's looking to inject pace into the game. I put him and Plessis down as the best players after Reina- the rest were very poor. Problem with him was that as soon as Kuyt, Gerrard or Yossi got the ball, they'd give it away- almost every time. And they're the players that really need to be playing well in front of Alonso to get his game going. On Saturday, Alonso had Kuyt, Keane, Yossi and Riera playing quite well- so his passes were sticking and getting turned into attacking chances.

The only game Xabi's done poor in this season has been the Boro game. Ironically, it was in that game that the team as a whole (apart from one or two) played alright- before that, Xabi was one of the few playing well (or doing the things to get the team playing well) with the rest looking shite.

Alonso is a player who will look poor if he's got no options. Standard cut off his options and pretty much strangled the life out of our team- maybe Alonso could have done more, but I think the reason we were so crap against Liege was because we were tactically outdone and outplayed as a team.

I fully believe that Alonso will shine this season if he's regularly in the squad. I never did get the criticisms of the Mascherano and Alonso holding midfield partnership- I think it's perfect to provide the platform for Gerrard to have a free roam role in our team- which is important. Also, I'm not convinced as to why people think Gerrard and Masch could be better, or even Lucas and Masch. I'm looking forward to watching Xabi play this season- as I do every season he's been here. He's definitely not the player he was in 2005, but I think that fact has been so overplayed now, it's entered a strange mystical connotation- in fact it's evolved so much that there are people saying Xabi hasn't played a good game since his first season here...
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Offline GeniusChrist

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #395 on: September 16, 2008, 11:56:05 am »
It's the pace with which he links play that Liverpool would miss if he went. It's not a word people associate with Alonso because he lacks footspeed. But I think it's the defining feature of his play. I was going to write a post on this after the Sunderland game but there are already about 500 on Alonso out there! His contribution that afternoon was crucial because it made the team tick over at a far faster rate than it had done with a Plessis-Gerrard midfield. Because of the quickness with which the simple things were done everyone suddenly had more space to play in.

That pace comes from three things. 1. Great technique - in particular a tendency to kill the ball with his left foot and instantly pass with his right. 2. A special ability to look up and retain a 3-D image of the state of play and its likely evolution over the next few seconds, which allows him to make 'blind' passes which are completely safe. 3. Arrogance - of the best kind. He knows that technically he's the best player on the park and therefore goes in search of the ball where others might be tempted to hide. 

I would build the team around Alonso (obviously!). He's a very good player now. But the better the players are around him - like Mascherano - the more devastating Alonso's impact is likely to be. If a player with sound technique takes up intelligent positions - no matter how apparently obscure - Alonso will find them.

I would also add to that the fact he knows when to slow things down, when we need to just keep possesion without trying to drive forward.
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #396 on: September 16, 2008, 12:17:18 pm »
I would also add to that the fact he knows when to slow things down, when we need to just keep possesion without trying to drive forward.

I wouldn't use the words "slow things down" but I know what you mean. He doesn't force things ridiculously if the chances of it coming off are slim. But the alternative of further ball retention - at least the way he does it - can still feel like the game speeding up if you're constantly on the end of it. That's how Spain the won the Euros. They were patient, but never allowed that patience to turn into a 'breather' for their opponents. If a move ran into a blind alley, the team instantly started working out an alternative route. The Germans and Russians - fit teams - were both knackered after 60 minutes. That was pace.

This thread started out about 'Level 3' footy and I'm a bit surprised its excellent author doesn't seem convinced about Alonso. It seems to me that the only time we ever get near Level 3 is when Alonso is on the team. Roy says he isn't consistently effective. Results, of course, suggest otherwise (how many times has the Alonso-Mascherano central midfield pairing lost a game?). Liege was a poor effort - though Baz's post is terrific on this. But, remember the pitiful footy we often played last year after Alonso got crocked? Level 1 stuff.

I'm desperate for us to play to the Rinus Michels model. First because it's effective. Second because it's exhilirating to watch. Parts of the team are capable of doing it, and the key part - central midfield - is the best in the Premier League. Up there with Chelsea's. Some of the movement around it could still improve though.
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #397 on: September 16, 2008, 02:15:32 pm »
i'm convinced about alonso when he's on song and he's making good choices yorky, that's for sure. but i'm not as convinced as you that he always does that. injecting pace into the game is sometimes appropriate but when your side needs to build confidence it's often better to look lateral and try a simpler ball, or to carry the ball forward into space before offloading. injecting pace isn't much use when the recipients of your passes haven't played themselves into the game yet, or if they're playing poorly full stop.

i think it's symptomatic of how good alonso is, however, that we even have these levels of expectation about him. deco's doing a good job at chelsea just now and that's the kind of role xabi's more than capable of reaching from an offensive point of view (i think he's got more potential than deco defensively myself, although i haven't watched deco enough to make a solid judgement of that side of his game really). 

anyway, the decision maker role (wherever it's deployed) is probably analogous to a point guard in basketball, a setter in volleyball, or a stand off half in rugby. in those games the choice of pass is more obvious and there's less tendency to blame the intended recipient of the ball for losing possession, because it's all about how the ball's presented to them - the decision and its delivery is the key to everything that flows from it.

xabi's capable of the kind of delivery few players can match, but sometimes the pass has to be more conservative to bring others into the game. using the rugby metaphor, if he tried what he tried in liege as a stand-off, the side would have lost a good three or four players to injury, because they'd have been stretching to field balls they couldn't quite gather, and they'd be hit hard as a result.

anyway, the xabi debate (as with kuyt) gets almost sectarian at times and i guess we're unique on this thread in agreeing that both are useful and have potential when playing well to fit the level 3 bill perfectly (as I said in the o.p about alonso actually), so here's hoping we get more play of the sort we saw against Man U.

sorry, i have to go cos i have more to type (bloody mother in law has arrived).

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #398 on: September 16, 2008, 02:44:25 pm »
I think you've misuderstood what I said though roy. Alonso brings pace to Liverpool because of his short passing, his ability to be patient, his lateral movement etc. My favourite Xabi pass isn't the 40 yarder to the wings, it's the quick-fire 5-10 yarder through the centre, or the pass and move that results in him getting the ball back immediately, in a greater amount of space than when he first received it. This is why he needs players like Mascherano and Lucas around him. They understand how to play that way - which is not necessarily true of some of the senior players we have.   
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #399 on: September 16, 2008, 02:47:56 pm »
Go on, say Steven Gerrard, you know you want to ;)
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