Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1190412 times)

Offline Paddock77

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #240 on: August 5, 2008, 01:50:36 pm »
Absolutely superb read! Real thought provoking. Thanks for putting this together.
Does anyone else see similarities in the RM model to what a certain Bill Shankly did when he came to us? The whole mentality aspect, the building from the ground up side of things.
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Offline king23

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #241 on: August 5, 2008, 02:25:33 pm »
congratulations mate, reading these 3 posts gave me that great satisfaction of genuinely learning something about our club. iv got a limited knowledge of michels work, but i trust your interpretations, and your application of these to our situation and rafas 'bootroom' are absolutely spot on
"oots? its liverpool, not royston fucking vasey"

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #242 on: August 5, 2008, 03:08:21 pm »
that's an important point to emphasise though king23 - it's just an interpretation and in that respect, another person's interpretation could knock the whole premise down like a house of cards. he goes into mind-numbing detail in the attacking phase, and i've tried to distill things down as best i could (honestly - it could have been a lot longer!).

Offline theallseeingeye

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #243 on: August 5, 2008, 07:46:07 pm »
got to say roy what you've wrote has had a profound affect, it's
logical when you think about it,but never easy to put into words
if your not working in football,is there not some kind of job your football intelligence can accommodate.
 can i just ask 1 question were does the human element come into it.
 




 









« Last Edit: August 5, 2008, 07:49:36 pm by theallseeingeye »

Offline Killerred

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #244 on: August 5, 2008, 08:29:43 pm »
Great post - A solid, rooted squad capable of dominating the opposition - as we all saw at first hand back in '03, is what I've been hoping for for the last 4 years or 17, depending on which way you look at it. This is going to be a big season, make no mistake, we'll need luck too, but there is a roundness to the squad that we have been lacking for nearly two decades that has filled me with a confidence based not on hope but on cautious belief. 11 days.......
Certavi et Vici

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #245 on: August 5, 2008, 09:33:52 pm »
if your not working in football,is there not some kind of job your football intelligence can accommodate.

thanks mate but it's embarrassing to think people might look at it that way. all i've done is read a few books and stroked my chin for a while - there are hundreds of posters on here who've watched us play home and away for several decades, so with respect, if there's any football intelligence kicking around, they're the guys who have it in abundance.

i'm an IT business analyst and technical writer by trade so i all i do for a living is take other people's clever ideas and try to make them easier for people to understand. none of the ideas in here are mine! 

Quote
can i just ask 1 question were does the human element come into it

do you mean on the motivational front? the quick answer i guess is that sammi and pellegrino have come in to fill the gap left by pako, but i'm in favour of the way things are set up here cos it encourages professionalism and maturity. it's a bit cold maybe, but it's the foundation for continuous improvement i reckon. that's just me though. what do you think on this front mate?

Offline theallseeingeye

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #246 on: August 5, 2008, 10:30:55 pm »
to your 1st reply roy having read my quote, it should have been your football knowledge and intelligence.
as it's clear to see your use of the English language is of above average

and to your 2nd
agreed to an extent
i have played football at a semi pro level (CM) so i feel i have a bit of a grasp of the mentality
footballers use. me i was focused but never wanted plaudits even if i done good
 a "well done" was suffice.
but were talking  top,top athletes here and a mindset to win and at an age were
it's not about ones self, but about the bigger picture as winning as a collective.

 
 
the bonding in the squad must include rafa (bonding in training on the pitch)
and i don't feel he is as tepid(well, cold ..just sounds cold) as people make out.













royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #247 on: August 5, 2008, 10:39:29 pm »
agreed to an extent
i have played football at a semi pro level (CM) so i feel i have a bit of a grasp of the mentality
footballers use. me i was focused but never wanted plaudits even if i done good
 a "well done" was suffice.
but were talking  top,top athletes here and a mindset to win and at an age were
it's not about ones self, but about the bigger picture as winning as a collective.

the bonding in the squad must include rafa (bonding in training on the pitch)
and i don't feel he is as tepid(well, cold ..just sounds cold) as people make out

i'd agree with that mate - did you see nemeth's blog after the rangers game?

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=218703.msg4623443#msg4623443

rafa had a word in his ear it seems...
Quote
After the match everybody said some good words to me, even Rafa Benitez did, but I think his words do not behove to the publicity. I'm instead enjoying his words in myself.

good post that by the way - the kid's mentality is superb (was dying for him to score tonight when he got that free header).

i did another post on this last september - it's another long read but basically i agree with you!
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=194700.0

Offline FernandosLaughterLines

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #248 on: August 5, 2008, 10:44:23 pm »
Superb Post.

Posts like that just confirm that Liverpool fans are some of the best educated football fans around.

Opened mine, and hopefully others eyes to what Rafa and the backroom staff are aiming for.

Offline theallseeingeye

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #249 on: August 5, 2008, 11:13:15 pm »
i'd agree with that mate - did you see nemeth's blog after the rangers game?

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=218703.msg4623443#msg4623443

rafa had a word in his ear it seems...
good post that by the way - the kid's mentality is superb (was dying for him to score tonight when he got that free header).

i did another post on this last september - it's another long read but basically i agree with you!
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=194700.0

i hadn't .

i not really one for the analytic side of the game. and i'm not keyboard friendly, having read the KN blog, it is now the self doubt.  and reasurrance is needed which is the "human element" which rafa has ticked his box.(just as i thought) and now, pell or sammy will get  to work on him ..
in the words of  Col. John "Hannibal" Smith.  "i love it when a plan comes together"
« Last Edit: August 5, 2008, 11:22:19 pm by theallseeingeye »

Offline Manila Kop

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #250 on: August 6, 2008, 03:20:08 am »
Royhendo, I'm curious - after watching pre-season, how far along do you think we are in the project?  Would you characterise some of the passing of the ball yesterday when we repeatedly penetrated Valeranga's defense as good circulation football?  I noticed yesterday there was a lot more emphasis on build-up and methodical play, vs. few opportunities to counter-attack because the Norwegians defended deep in their own half.
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Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #251 on: August 6, 2008, 08:28:14 am »

Royhendo, I'm curious - after watching pre-season, how far along do you think we are in the project?  Would you characterise some of the passing of the ball yesterday when we repeatedly penetrated Valeranga's defense as good circulation football?  I noticed yesterday there was a lot more emphasis on build-up and methodical play, vs. few opportunities to counter-attack because the Norwegians defended deep in their own half.

i still think it's fragmented, but the intent's there isn't it? when keane settles it'll be interesting to see the impact it has, because moves that have thus far broken down are more likely to flow on. the end game for us is for the moves to flow on and on and on until the opportunity presents itself clear as day - we're going to still be forcing things a little this year i'd guess.

that's one potential hurdle that may stand in our way - will rafa 'over engineer' the patterns of play? i think personally that his work with valencia showed that's not the case, and that with time it'll come on its own. 

Last year away to Newcastle I felt Babel's goal typified the route we want to take. I remember thinking "That's Liverpool football!". it feels like sacrilege on some level to say this, but i want to see the kind of play that led to diaby's goal in the Anfield leg of last year's CL quarter final - pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-space-goal. if we get close to that when we're faced with a packed defence, we'll have fewer nightmare games like Wigan home, Marseille home, and so forth.

The other thing is the fact we now have better finishers at our disposal. If you look at the stats on our conversion ratio, it was our big achilles heel last year. We created chances galore in most games, but in spite of adding Torres, we still fared miserably when compared with our rivals.

Look at the Actim Premier League stats from here: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11096_2705370,00.html 

If you divide goals scored by the number of attempts on goal we had (to figure out the percentage 'conversion ratio') we hit 12.52%. So for every 100 chances we create, on average, we score 12.52 goals.

So in the Premier League, we had 535 attempts on goal (note that this is second only to Man United who had 547 attempts, and well ahead of Arsenal who had 473, and Chelsea who had 454). So we created a lot of chances - a tremendous number of chances.

If we converted something like the percentage of chances our rivals did, the stats would be frightening.

To put this in perspective, Man United scored most goals with 80, followed by Arsenal with 74, and then Villa with 71. We scored 67 - one more than Spurs, and two more than Chelsea.

So how do we rate in our conversion of chances? Well, Villa were first with 17.57%. Arsenal were second with 15.64%. Man United came fifth with 14.63%. Meanwhile, we were 10th with 12.52%.

If we upped our conversion ratio even to the average percentage of those above us, we'd hit roughly Man United's level at 14.65%. That would equate to 78 goals.

If we upped our conversion ratio to Arsenal's level (15.64%), we'd up that to 83 goals.

And if we topped the league in converting our chances by matching Villa's 17.57%, we'd score 94 goals.

So clearly it's going to pay if we improve the quality of service, the creation of space and opportunities in the box, and how clinical we are in and around the box.

We need to improve on our performance from last year.
« Last Edit: August 6, 2008, 08:30:18 am by royhendo »

Offline Manila Kop

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #252 on: August 6, 2008, 09:51:40 am »
i still think it's fragmented, but the intent's there isn't it? when keane settles it'll be interesting to see the impact it has, because moves that have thus far broken down are more likely to flow on. the end game for us is for the moves to flow on and on and on until the opportunity presents itself clear as day - we're going to still be forcing things a little this year i'd guess.

I think you've got it spot on there.  There are times when we're passing the ball neatly and then try to force a breakthrough, which ends up turning over possession to our opponents.  There were a number of times I'd see Benayoun/Keane/Torres trying to dribble through 5 defenders in the box yesterday.  It's not a bad thing but the main point is we haven't developed the patience to pull the defence apart first and then pounce, instead we try to barge through thickets of defenders.  It could explain why we have such low conversion on goals as well...too many times players try to shoot from outside the box or pull the trigger quickly when they're being marked by 2-3 defenders.

Last year away to Newcastle I felt Babel's goal typified the route we want to take. I remember thinking "That's Liverpool football!". it feels like sacrilege on some level to say this, but i want to see the kind of play that led to diaby's goal in the Anfield leg of last year's CL quarter final - pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-space-goal. if we get close to that when we're faced with a packed defence, we'll have fewer nightmare games like Wigan home, Marseille home, and so forth.

Have to agree with this.  There were a few games (can't remember which ones) when we were just pinging the ball around and the opposition didn't know what to do.  I was watching the Great Managers series last week and seeing all the match highlights from the 70s and 80s just made me think about how we don't approach the standard (yet!) of those great teams.  There was really just effective use of space that tore defences apart, the kind of one touch passing that leads to media wankfests over Arsenal.  Players who are comfortable holding the ball and releasing it just right.  It's why, despite his inconsistency, I like Lucas a lot.  He brings to mind that style of play.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #253 on: August 6, 2008, 10:11:52 am »
Players who are comfortable holding the ball and releasing it just right.  It's why, despite his inconsistency, I like Lucas a lot.  He brings to mind that style of play.

i'm the same MK, and i think pacheco and nemeth have that same quality. we need to grow into it a little because we're used to having to force things. alonso's goal was nicely worked last night though - one touch passing and being calmer when things get bogged down

Offline Manila Kop

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #254 on: August 6, 2008, 10:21:36 am »
i'm the same MK, and i think pacheco and nemeth have that same quality. we need to grow into it a little because we're used to having to force things. alonso's goal was nicely worked last night though - one touch passing and being calmer when things get bogged down

Definitely Pacheco, he looks so level-headed on the pitch it doesn't seem like he's still a teenager.  I think Nemeth can rise up to it but at the moment he's being a little jittery.  Same with Keane.

On the point about being calmer - I wonder if it's a relic of our previous lack of quality.  We now have a team that can play Level 3 football, but our players still have that niggling fear in their heads that we will be beaten if we don't force things.  We don't have the confidence or imperiousness of champions yet so there's a certain desperation, the search for the 'Hail Mary' goal to give us the mental reassurance that we're going to win.  It's amazing how much calmer on the ball we are once we score the first goal - we settle into a nice passing rhythm and contain opposition teams in their half.  When we don't score, we rarely hold our nerve and rely on things like the 'Gerrard spectacular' at Derby away.
The infallible wank stain
Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.

royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #255 on: August 6, 2008, 10:36:52 am »
yeah, that's it isn't it? it's hard shaking off old habits and putting faith in your growing abilities but that's the problem in a nutshell. at some stage though, the pressure of the quality will tell and our little growing bud will flower into something beautiful. (and if it doesn't, we should be asking ourselves why.)

Offline Carrammba

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #256 on: August 6, 2008, 12:50:16 pm »
Excellent post. Articles like these are the reasons I joined RAWK and makes it worth the while.
Gave me a very warm feeling reading & had tears in my eyes at end in expectation of things to come.
I am posting a reply after quite a long time. The negative drivel I had to endure here at times bogged me down and therefore just took to lurking.

Rafa is doing the same thing Kenny, Fagan, Paisley and Shanks did. They liked to play at "Level 3" (although they may not have called it that during their times), Nurtured youth and kept the supply line healthy (although kenny was guilty of neglecting the supplyline philosophy (could be attributed to Heysel??)).

The thing I am getting at is the "Liverpool way" was to TRUST their manager, give him time and belive in him. He will get it right; all people mentioned above did.
But, in todays world of quick fix and now, now, Rafa has not been afforded that luxury. One small lapse, and its dooms day and all the negative fuC*&^s come out like termites  :butt and drag the match thread to 100 odd pages dissecting Rafa and his methods to shreds.

I hope all the RAWKites read your article, royhendo.
I hope they truly believe in it as you & I do.
These are exciting times ahead.   
Those who were part of the Shanks/Paisley/Kenny era will have a second chance to Re-Live the magic and those who have not experienced the euphoria of those times will experience a truly " Istanbulish" feeling.
Hold on to your hats guys, its going to be one helluva of ride.
KEEP YOUR FEET FIRMLY ON THE GROUND & REACH FOR THE STARS  8)

Offline marcopolored

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #257 on: August 6, 2008, 06:52:01 pm »
Great post. Well worth the read

Offline Robbies5th

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #258 on: August 6, 2008, 06:56:29 pm »
fantastic work. I'll give a proper answer when I get some time but that was well worth the read
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Offline Redblooded

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #259 on: August 7, 2008, 12:21:09 pm »
A vastly superior and more useful read than 99% of all football publications!  Thanks for posting it for us all here!!

I conquer verbate um with these added thoughts:

Rafa's Euro commentary is confirmation, brilliant and thanks again to the providers!

We ARE almost there and any dip in our rivals form will negate their current/past advantage.

Belief & continuity are nonnegotiable essentials:  Note to all!  No one walks alone.

The one thing I haven't seen here so far is how important it is to look after the Gaffa!!!  I pray for Rafa's looong term health & happiness!  As should we all, Yanks & all!

Again FANTASTIC WORK/POST!!
FFS Group it has to be RB!  Though a second second coming in 2 years may be too much to take...


Offline Wexford14

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #261 on: August 7, 2008, 03:43:37 pm »
Long Time Guest, First time poster, and that is the most considered, intelligent piece of writing i've read in quite some time. Not alone about football, but about anything, it's clever, witty, incisive, informative and lays everything out in simple terms for all to see. A few more like you and it'd be a nicer fookin world I tells ya. Touché mon frére!
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Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #262 on: August 7, 2008, 03:48:33 pm »
Roy, fascinating read. Well done for obviously spending so much time on this. I think even before RM came out and set all this out clearly as he has done, I think some on here may have already subconsciously knew about the various levels in football. i.e. when you take over a failing team, the first objective is to stop it from losing. The next objective is to make it very difficult to beat, and also start winning. The third objective is to start winning consistently. I actually believed there was a 4th level as well; that is to start winning consistently by playing beautiful football. I believe our 87/88 side achieved level 4, as did Brazil ’70, and Arsenal 03/04.   

Also I have a question. If I could point to a single game since Rafa has been here that made me the proudest, irrespective of result or what we won at the end of it, it has to be our game against the Mancs in 2006 at their ground. Despite us losing the game, I was actually proud of the way we totally controlled the match and circulated the ball ala level 3. And this was away to one our closest rivals. Who themselves were at level 3. I really thought that was the sign we had arrived back where we belong. But it’s interesting that since we played that game, the Mancs nearly always play us at Level 2, while we have tried playing a combination of level 2 and 3. With the result that they have mugged us every single time.

I’m just wondering what your views are on this.

*With such simplicity the European cup is won.
**Sour-ness, will he get a shot? Now Dalglish...across the face of the goaaaalllll!
***Alan Kennedy!...He goes on...he scores!
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*****And Liverpool have won it! They're back...outsiders all the way...

Offline Ingumsky

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #263 on: August 7, 2008, 05:19:00 pm »
Excellent! That's a must-read piece for all the lads who want to pick the berries up without fail next May and for those who are ready to bury Rafa and his plan right now 'cause 'there's no progress in our league position'. Thank you!
Wild rover, Irish rover

Offline Morse

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #264 on: August 8, 2008, 01:41:59 am »
I just hope Rafa gets the time to finish his work here.

Offline Redblooded

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #265 on: August 8, 2008, 11:31:50 am »
Roy' heads up on the official website.  Rafa's latest interview, it's like he's talking about your/this thread!

Quote.  "Now though, we are in the position we always wanted to be. You can say it's the starting point in a way, but we have the benefit of learning from the mistakes of recent seasons, and we are at another level now."

Spooky!  :o

The Boss stating we're at the next level too!!  That's different, like paying top dollar for mature aged players.

Damn it, my hopes officially up again!)
FFS Group it has to be RB!  Though a second second coming in 2 years may be too much to take...

royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #266 on: August 8, 2008, 12:21:30 pm »
Roy' heads up on the official website.  Rafa's latest interview, it's like he's talking about your/this thread!

Quote.  "Now though, we are in the position we always wanted to be. You can say it's the starting point in a way, but we have the benefit of learning from the mistakes of recent seasons, and we are at another level now."

Spooky!  :o

The Boss stating we're at the next level too!!  That's different, like paying top dollar for mature aged players.

Damn it, my hopes officially up again!)

Didn't you realise I'm here in an 'incognito' capacity? (strokes beard, browses ladies' watch catalogue for Montse...)

;D

link: http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N160827080808-1102.htm
« Last Edit: August 8, 2008, 12:34:26 pm by royhendo »

Offline Redblooded

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #267 on: August 8, 2008, 12:53:27 pm »
RESPECT.
FFS Group it has to be RB!  Though a second second coming in 2 years may be too much to take...

Offline Uhoh AureliOs

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #268 on: August 8, 2008, 02:34:23 pm »
Just read the first half of it, I'll come back to read the rest later - very insightful so far.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #269 on: August 8, 2008, 04:30:06 pm »
Errr.... who are you and why aren't you writing for a national paper?!?!  (or are you?)

One of the best most interesting things I've read on sport and I read a lot

Well done mate

Offline Red Shaolin Monk

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #270 on: August 9, 2008, 07:52:29 pm »
Thanks you for the time and effort you have taken to wirte this, it was most interesting.
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royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #271 on: August 9, 2008, 08:49:56 pm »
...I think even before RM came out and set all this out clearly as he has done, I think some on here may have already subconsciously knew about the various levels in football. i.e. when you take over a failing team, the first objective is to stop it from losing. The next objective is to make it very difficult to beat, and also start winning. The third objective is to start winning consistently. I actually believed there was a 4th level as well; that is to start winning consistently by playing beautiful football. I believe our 87/88 side achieved level 4, as did Brazil ’70, and Arsenal 03/04.   

Also I have a question. If I could point to a single game since Rafa has been here that made me the proudest, irrespective of result or what we won at the end of it, it has to be our game against the Mancs in 2006 at their ground. Despite us losing the game, I was actually proud of the way we totally controlled the match and circulated the ball ala level 3. And this was away to one our closest rivals. Who themselves were at level 3. I really thought that was the sign we had arrived back where we belong. But it’s interesting that since we played that game, the Mancs nearly always play us at Level 2, while we have tried playing a combination of level 2 and 3. With the result that they have mugged us every single time.

I’m just wondering what your views are on this.

Cheers for this SSS... to be honest the clearest work i've seen on this was Clive Woodward (sorry, back to egg chasing again) when he described his World Cup winning side playing New Zealand on their home turf before the tournament started. he described the level they'd reached as 'winning' because they could play winning rugby no matter what happened during a game - they could play the referee, they could play in baking sunshine or thunderous rain, and they could keep a world class NZ side from scoring any points when they'd had two men sin-binned in the final quarter of the game. they played what was in front of them and reacted as a group. for me, that's equivalent to 'level 3' in that it calls for a full repertoire of footballing styles, and the ability to react and win when things don't go to plan (in simple terms reverting to level 2 or even level 1 to save our skins at the death).

it's one thing that irks me about Rafa to be honest - we'll lose a game and he'll say we 'controlled' it, but by definition we didn't control it, because we lost. when we reach the level of consistency and adaptability of a true level 3 side, we'll 'control' or 'dominate' as the circumstances dictate, and it'll be very rare that we don't do it.

this is all assuming that the whole project doesn't go t_ts up in the aftermath of this latest shitstorm from over the Atlantic.

Anyway, I take your point about Level 4, but even then, the sides you mention had the nous to dig out wins and draws they didn't deserve when the need arose. But i know what you mean - with these rare teams you get the feeling the quality's so high they could complete an entire training game with one-touch volleys alone :D

Offline dane

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #272 on: August 10, 2008, 02:42:42 am »
I think Plesis fives a great example of the situation Hamberg spoke of...where you compare the youth with their first team equivalent and if the young player is better, you get rid of the first team player (my paraphrase). After watching Plesis for the first time yesterday, he reminds me a lot of Momo Sissoko but with a bit of Xabi Alonso in him. He sprayed the ball well and seemed to have a "monster" engine. I think this would go a long way toward explaining why Momo was sold in January because IIRC it came out of the blue almost. 
I can see what you're referring to regarding Plessis and Sissoko but I'm actually inclined to think the sale had more to do with Mascherano... and indirectly Lucas... transfer value and competition for places.  I do agree though that in what I've seen of Plessis he looks to have a good engine, certainly has the physique to be a very imposing figure in the middle of the park, looks very capable of breaking up the play and also picks a good simple pass in a composed fashion for a youngster.  Perhaps the presence of Plessis down the pecking order was a factor in making Rafa more comfortable letting Momo go.

If we haven't extended his contract yet I hope we do soon.  Without any disrespect to Lucas I find Plessis the more interesting and promising prospect, get the lad to sign to 2012 with an option to extend.

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Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #273 on: August 10, 2008, 10:51:22 pm »
Really, Really good. Inspiring and very interesting. I dearly hope that you are right. It all seems so good in theory, so let's all just cross our fingers that Rafa's given the time to sort it, and if I hear any LFC fans start moaning, I'll direct them to this article.

This is now my first choice of opinion, above the p-takers in The Guardian and so on. Well written, balanced and intelligent. Bravo!

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #274 on: August 11, 2008, 03:08:40 am »
it's one thing that irks me about Rafa to be honest - we'll lose a game and he'll say we 'controlled' it, but by definition we didn't control it, because we lost. when we reach the level of consistency and adaptability of a true level 3 side, we'll 'control' or 'dominate' as the circumstances dictate, and it'll be very rare that we don't do it.


This is one point I disagree with. One of the things I love about football, especially compared to a sport like Rugby, is that it is totally possible to dominate every aspect of play yet still lose the game. The Barnsley loss springs to mind.

The more control you have of a game, the more likely you are to win it, but the extent of that likelihood is also dependent on the quality of your players, even if the system and training is perfect. Perhaps a reason why Rafa always stops at 'we controlled the game' is that if poor results are happening too often, then the solution is down to better players...not always something you want say repeatedly, and something I think Jewell got hugely wrong with Derby.

Remember also the Marseille loss. There wasn't any 'controlled the game' then. If we've been soundly beaten for whatever reason then Rafa nearly always acknowledges it as well as the reasons why. Torres talking about Rafa's training methods and those excellent 'el mundo' columns show just how superb he is at calling games. 

This line of thought, funnily enough, leads me to Fat Sam's Bolton. For me they had many 'total football' hallmarks, but lacked the players to produce level 3 against better sides. They may have been derided for physicality, but they had a lot of technical players for a team like that, defended as a very tight unit, and they could play levels 1,2 and even 3 depending on the opposition. People forget that they thrashed a lot of teams around them through playing much better football...they couldn't rely on directness, spirit and strength to win those. If they had a weakness, it was the same as all 'limited' level 3 sides...they struggled with teams who were happy to treat them as the 'overdogs' and set up to defend.
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #275 on: August 11, 2008, 08:29:27 am »
This is one point I disagree with. One of the things I love about football, especially compared to a sport like Rugby, is that it is totally possible to dominate every aspect of play yet still lose the game. The Barnsley loss springs to mind.

The more control you have of a game, the more likely you are to win it, but the extent of that likelihood is also dependent on the quality of your players, even if the system and training is perfect. Perhaps a reason why Rafa always stops at 'we controlled the game' is that if poor results are happening too often, then the solution is down to better players...not always something you want say repeatedly, and something I think Jewell got hugely wrong with Derby.

Remember also the Marseille loss. There wasn't any 'controlled the game' then. If we've been soundly beaten for whatever reason then Rafa nearly always acknowledges it as well as the reasons why. Torres talking about Rafa's training methods and those excellent 'el mundo' columns show just how superb he is at calling games. 

first up, thanks for this - the depth of thinking on RAWK is what sets it aside. this made me stop and have a rethink and having looked at the dictionary definition of the verb 'to control', it seems i'm being too narrow in my own definition. To control denotes 'to exercise influence over', and is only suggestive of 'to dictate the behaviour of'. i was always thinking of it in those terms - that when Rafa said 'we controlled the game', he meant 'we dictated the game'. i suppose that's where the verb 'to dominate' would be used.

i do think the two terms are vague though, and that it'd be useful to nail down exactly what individual managers mean when they use those words. i think you make a great point in that rafa holds his hands up when he feels we've played poorly and allowed the opposition to play 'unopposed' so to speak (which is very rare indeed). so i guess his 'control' suggests we closed them down according to our game plan and minimised the chances they got - that their fortune was entirely dependent on luck.

strangely enough michels talks about this directly in his book and i think i actually quoted him on that in the first version of the post - that the criteria he lays down do not guarantee success on the pitch, because they're dependent on a. the quality of the personell, and b. luck. he spends a little time making that clear point.

Quote
This line of thought, funnily enough, leads me to Fat Sam's Bolton. For me they had many 'total football' hallmarks, but lacked the players to produce level 3 against better sides. They may have been derided for physicality, but they had a lot of technical players for a team like that, defended as a very tight unit, and they could play levels 1, 2 and even 3 depending on the opposition. People forget that they thrashed a lot of teams around them through playing much better football...they couldn't rely on directness, spirit and strength to win those. If they had a weakness, it was the same as all 'limited' level 3 sides...they struggled with teams who were happy to treat them as the 'overdogs' and set up to defend.

i think that's fair comment and i suppose it's a contextual thing. at LFC, the context and hope (if not expectation) is to beat all comers and win everything we compete for (i think that's still fair) whereas at bolton...

i'm pretty sure there's a sanctioned UEFA definition of 'control' and 'dominate' and i'm sure it's possession- and territory-related. that is, if your opponent doesn't overwhelm you in terms of possession in your final third, then there's an argument you 'controlled' them. whereas, if you imposed yourselves on your opponent territorially in their final third, and had the overwhelming majority of possession (at least of 'meaningful' possession), then you 'dominated' them.

is that bow-lox?  ;D

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #276 on: August 11, 2008, 08:39:28 am »
btw thanks to stussy et al for the recommendations for further reading - i'm just reading the Jonathan Wilson book HBHR mentions above and it's superb. interesting to read the stuff about michels' and lobanovsky's sides, their use of pressing, and veiled allegations of substance abuse coordinated by their medical staff.

there lies the underlying reason for our squad depth and rotation policy eh? we want to play a pressing game as far as we can - but then i know you have detailed thoughts on that HBHR and i'm looking forward to hearing them 'mature' :D

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #277 on: August 11, 2008, 01:07:10 pm »
i'm pretty sure there's a sanctioned UEFA definition of 'control' and 'dominate' and i'm sure it's possession- and territory-related. that is, if your opponent doesn't overwhelm you in terms of possession in your final third, then there's an argument you 'controlled' them. whereas, if you imposed yourselves on your opponent territorially in their final third, and had the overwhelming majority of possession (at least of 'meaningful' possession), then you 'dominated' them.

is that bow-lox?  ;D

That seems about right to me. Control, to me, means we had most of the possession, or at least were significantly more dangerous in possession, and we looked significantly more comfortable in our play then the opponents. Obviously, there's degrees of this, from only just controlling a game to utterly dominating it, with 'dominating' being what you describe, and as I say the extent to which you win games is then ultimately dependent on quality. Saachi says something like:

"I used to tell my players that if we could keep 25m between the centre backs and the centre forward, with our ability, no-one could beat us."

The ability bit is telling. Tactics can take you a huge, huge distance, but ultimately converting domination into great chances or goals requires players who can pass, have creativity and can finish etc.

-----------------------

I really enjoyed the bits about Lobanyovsky in particular, his scentific approaches are incredible, and far ahead of their time. In terms of physique, it's also telling that a number of sources talk about how Saachi's pressing was massively draining. It's interesting that Gullit seems to have almost broken down through injury by the end of Saachi's tenure.

In comparison Rafa's players often look like they could still pull trucks at the end of tiring games towards the end of the season.
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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #278 on: August 11, 2008, 02:36:58 pm »
Saachi says something like:

"I used to tell my players that if we could keep 25m between the centre backs and the centre forward, with our ability, no-one could beat us."

that ties in with Michels and the bit about using the offside trap as an attacking tactic. i've only scanned the book thus far, but a bit i stopped on was on a Brazilian centre half who moved to Barca when Michels was there, and was shocked because Barca played such a high defensive line (apparently they called it 'the donkey line' in Brazil because traditionally it was so easy to spring the offside trap played so high)... but the point was to compress play when out of possession and expand the space available when in possession. 

Quote
I really enjoyed the bits about Lobanyovsky in particular, his scentific approaches are incredible, and far ahead of their time. In terms of physique, it's also telling that a number of sources talk about how Saachi's pressing was massively draining. It's interesting that Gullit seems to have almost broken down through injury by the end of Saachi's tenure.

In comparison Rafa's players often look like they could still pull trucks at the end of tiring games towards the end of the season.

yup - rotation, no? that and diet and their approach to fitness work - i think ramos is from the same school as rafa on this front and by all accounts is even more militant on diet and fluid intake than rafa/pako. he has strange carbo baby-drink-style drinks tailored for each player before the game, at half time, and after the game.

royhendo

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Re: Re: Level 3 football - the final step in Rafa's plan, part 3
« Reply #279 on: August 11, 2008, 08:28:59 pm »
here's the actual quote from the brazilian centre half (marinho peres) who played under michels at barca:
Quote
The pressing had a dual function, though: it wasn't just about frustrating the opposition. 'In one training session,' marinho recalled, 'i pushed up and we caught four or five players offside. i was pleased, because it was still new to me and i was finding it difficult, but michels came and shouted at me. what he wanted was for us to charge the guy with the ball with the players we had spare because they had men out of the game in offside positions. that's how offside becomes an offensive game. if when we got the ball like this, we couldn't create a chance, the defenders dropped back and made the pitch bigger. it was all about space.' 

i have to say having read the michels book, and the lobanovskyi and sacchi sections there, the parallels between rafa and all three managers are striking.