Topic: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)

[Rob Dylan]

Tolkien die hards hate the movies and will hate this too.

You can never bring to the screen what those books bring to them. It’s too personal an experience.

However, it’s perfectly legitimate that people might hate it for perfectly reasonable reasons, but there are lots of complaints have been about black people being in it.  Wait till they find out about Orcs….

For me, there’s absolutely no way you could form any worthwhile opinion form what’s been released so far, they’ve keep ot as tight as a gnat’s chuff

Exactly, and that's the point - they'd already decided that it will be terrible and disastrous woke propaganda, before they'd seen anything at all. And yes, Tolkein die hards probably don't even like the movies, yet most of these people seem to love them.

[jillcwhomever]

Exactly, and that's the point - they'd already decided that it will be terrible and disastrous woke propaganda, before they'd seen anything at all. And yes, Tolkein die hards probably don't even like the movies, yet most of these people seem to love them.

I just find it all really weird. I know diehards of any books can be hard to please. There were some fans of His Dark Materials who decided after one episode they hated the recent BBC series. One girl in particular I remember making a soft video on youtube about it. So, you just have to accept that some just won't take to anything regardless how good it was. I remember there was uproar on a couple of websites about Ariyon Bakare taking the part of Lord Boreal. But in actual fact he made that character far more interesting that he ever was in the book. It sounds as though some of these people have too much time on their hands to be honest.

[Rob Dylan]

I just find it all really weird. I know diehards of any books can be hard to please. There were some fans of His Dark Materials who decided after one episode they hated the recent BBC series. One girl in particular I remember making a soft video on youtube about it. So, you just have to accept that some just won't take to anything regardless how good it was. I remember there was uproar on a couple of websites about Ariyon Bakare taking the part of Lord Boreal. But in actual fact he made that character far more interesting that he ever was in the book. It sounds as though some of these people have too much time on their hands to be honest.

These people seem to have gone beyond even that and turned it into some kind of ideological war. It's ridiculous.

[Kashinoda]

Tolkien die hards hate the movies and will hate this too.

I mean Peter Jackson cast Liv Tyler so they'd have a point

I guess my larger point was there are those who don't like that there are black characters in the show, the issue is they're brigading the comment sections and making their voice much louder than it is in reality. It's par for the course.

Ironically enough the scene with the black Elf was the most LOTR looking of the lot.

[scatman]

My only issue really is that why the hell wouldn't you focus on the First Age, that's where all the bad ass stories are. Like LOADS of them.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Some fans will not like the idea of any live action adaptation or will not trust that they'll get it right; some will not be impressed with the trailer. Nothing wrong with that. But there was a flood of people condemning it when that very first teaser came out which showed us nothing of the actual show. It was already woke / SJW propaganda, and they'd already decided before they saw the trailer that it would be a disaster, and now it's out they're basically saying it's evil, they hate the fans, they're destroying Tolkein's work, they're destroying European culture... it's ridiculous and way out of proportion to what we've actually seen. And some of it is veering uncomfortably close to white supremacist ideas.

It seems to be more extreme than the reaction of Star Wars fans to having non-white / female characters, it seems to be really quite ideological. And from a brief unscientific look at some of those YouTube videos, it's mostly white American dudes with beards and baseball caps. They're apparently concerned about the destruction of 'European culture'.

I think you're being a bit extreme yourself. There's nothing supremacist saying that Europe in middle ages was pretty much all white. If the writer had in mind that period, and wanted to tell the story in that spirit and theme, and also based on western and northern mythology, then you normally would expect them to be all white. I don't know about you but I'd be extremely surprised to see whites or blacks in one of Chinese dynasty mythological movies with flying swords and stuff.

[TepidT2O]

Yeah… like LOTR is in anyway real.

[Sheer Magnetism]

It isn't 'real', but no fiction is 'real'. It is, however, the artistic vision of a genius. Are the showrunners artists of similar ability? If the answer is no (and it is) what right do they have to be messing around with the timelines of the story and grafting their personal politics on to it?

There's an interesting fan theory that Amazon would like the Tolkien stuff to be their franchise property, like Star Wars, DC or Marvel, where they can use it as the basis for a raft of action/adventure shows or films. But since the fans of the books would go crazy, Amazon are highlighting isolated right-wingers in an attempt to smear the entire core fanbase as hateful racists and any criticism as de facto hate speech from the start.

[newterp]

Yeah… like LOTR is in anyway real.

wait, what?

[[new username under construction]]

wait, what?

Big nasty man just lying, breath, breath, there there, don't listen

[Barefoot Doctor]

It isn't 'real', but no fiction is 'real'. It is, however, the artistic vision of a genius. Are the showrunners artists of similar ability? If the answer is no (and it is) what right do they have to be messing around with the timelines of the story and grafting their personal politics on to it?

There's an interesting fan theory that Amazon would like the Tolkien stuff to be their franchise property, like Star Wars, DC or Marvel, where they can use it as the basis for a raft of action/adventure shows or films. But since the fans of the books would go crazy, Amazon are highlighting isolated right-wingers in an attempt to smear the entire core fanbase as hateful racists and any criticism as de facto hate speech from the start.

I've no horse in this particular race, but it's an adaptation - and like any adaptation, whoever is in charge is going to make changes. The same happens with any written work that's adapted for TV or film, there's no special dispensation because it's Tolkien.

[Rob Dylan]

I think you're being a bit extreme yourself. There's nothing supremacist saying that Europe in middle ages was pretty much all white. If the writer had in mind that period, and wanted to tell the story in that spirit and theme, and also based on western and northern mythology, then you normally would expect them to be all white. I don't know about you but I'd be extremely surprised to see whites or blacks in one of Chinese dynasty mythological movies with flying swords and stuff.

There's an important distinction to make here. You gave the example of Chinese mythology - those myths (like any) are based on stories that people believed to be real, and are set in the real world (where yes, almost everyone would be Chinese). But LOTR is a work of fiction, nobody believes it is real, and more importantly, it is not set in the real world. A Chinese myth would be based in China, a Norse myth would be based in Scandinavia. Where is LOTR based? So to argue that 'everyone would be white' is meaningless, as this is a world that never existed. It's like saying, 'you wouldn't get that type of alien living on that planet' in Star Wars. There aren't the same 'rules' that would exist with something set in the real world, even if it's fictional.

I've seen some people saying it's like putting white people in Black Panther. But the difference is, while BP is set in a fictional country, it's still set in the real world, where in an isolated African country almost everyone would be black. And also, there is no way they would react the same way if white people were cast in BP, which just shows their hypocrisy.

There's nothing in LOTR that says there can't be black characters (and there are people from other areas in Middle Earth who are dark-skinned), but even if a black elf can't be explained, so what? It doesn't have to be another front in the culture war. Obviously the people making the show can still be criticised for doing things that don't work or fit the spirit of LOTR, but a lot of this is quite hysterical and goes way beyond that, into some kind of moral crusade, they're trying to brainwash us with woke propaganda, it's a betrayal of Tolkien, they're trying to deliberately insult the fans, etc etc.

And I only said some of it is veering into white supremacist ideas. But when you see white bearded American dudes talking about 'European culture' and 'Western Christian values' being destroyed, and sinister forces who control the media, it's pretty obvious what they're getting at.

[Rob Dylan]

It isn't 'real', but no fiction is 'real'. It is, however, the artistic vision of a genius. Are the showrunners artists of similar ability? If the answer is no (and it is) what right do they have to be messing around with the timelines of the story and grafting their personal politics on to it?

There's an interesting fan theory that Amazon would like the Tolkien stuff to be their franchise property, like Star Wars, DC or Marvel, where they can use it as the basis for a raft of action/adventure shows or films. But since the fans of the books would go crazy, Amazon are highlighting isolated right-wingers in an attempt to smear the entire core fanbase as hateful racists and any criticism as de facto hate speech from the start.

As someone else pointed out, any adaptation is going to change storylines and other details - just as Peter Jackson's did. But in this case, they are limited in what they can change under an agreement with the Tolkien estate. Also just casting some dark-skinned actors isn't adding 'politics' to it.

I can't speak for how Amazon is reacting to the criticism, but it's a fact that there are loads of videos on YouTube slaughtering it and thousands of comments calling it evil and complaining about 'woke propaganda' and the destruction of European culture, etc. It's like a magnet for these anti-woke, culture war types. I'm European, and I object to being told by Americans that my culture is being destroyed by this TV show. They should worry about their own 'culture'.

[Drinks Sangria]

What people are asking for is internal consistency, within the lore and story. Something can be a new idea, as long as it doesn't contradict established lore or feel to alien to the world that's already been crafted.

Of course it's easy to say 'how can you have a problem with a Black Elf when there's green-skinned monsters in this?' and it's because Tolkien was so specific with much of his description and lore that some push back against what seems to be internal inconsistencies to the lore or the creation of something that isn't plausible or lore friendly. It's not a reaction from anti-woke or woke people or whatever, for the large part. It's people who know the fantasy, know the lore inside out and are saying X wouldn't happen, regardless of what X is.

For example, every single Elf that Tolkien described in great detail was white, that we know of; described as fair, or pale in certain instances. Some were blonde, most had darker hair. It was ambiguous as to whether they had specifically pointy ears or not. This is the case in the lore - the elves awakened in the darkness at Cuivienen so didn't need darker skin pigments. However, Tolkien never specifically said there were no darker skinned elves etc etc. Established definitives shouldn't be rewritten, but anything that is justifiable within the lore and an extension as opposed to an opposition should be fair game. Is it really going to be an immersion killer to have a Black Elf? I reckon most people won't even notice and it won't take them out of the scene.

[TepidT2O]

It isn't 'real', but no fiction is 'real'. It is, however, the artistic vision of a genius. Are the showrunners artists of similar ability? If the answer is no (and it is) what right do they have to be messing around with the timelines of the story and grafting their personal politics on to it?

I couldn’t give two shits about messing around with a timeline to be honest. It’s just a TV show.
It reflects the times it’s made in. As did the books.

[Rob Dylan]

What people are asking for is internal consistency, within the lore and story. Something can be a new idea, as long as it doesn't contradict established lore or feel to alien to the world that's already been crafted.

Of course it's easy to say 'how can you have a problem with a Black Elf when there's green-skinned monsters in this?' and it's because Tolkien was so specific with much of his description and lore that some push back against what seems to be internal inconsistencies to the lore or the creation of something that isn't plausible or lore friendly. It's not a reaction from anti-woke or woke people or whatever, for the large part. It's people who know the fantasy, know the lore inside out and are saying X wouldn't happen, regardless of what X is.

For example, every single Elf that Tolkien described in great detail was white, that we know of; described as fair, or pale in certain instances. Some were blonde, most had darker hair. It was ambiguous as to whether they had specifically pointy ears or not. This is the case in the lore - the elves awakened in the darkness at Cuivienen so didn't need darker skin pigments. However, Tolkien never specifically said there were no darker skinned elves etc etc. Established definitives shouldn't be rewritten, but anything that is justifiable within the lore and an extension as opposed to an opposition should be fair game. Is it really going to be an immersion killer to have a Black Elf? I reckon most people won't even notice and it won't take them out of the scene.

I think those are all reasonable points, and it would be wrong for someone who made them to be accused of being racist. But there's a distinction between this - saying that it's impossible (for practical reasons) for an elf or dwarf to be black in that world - and what many of the critics are saying - that there shouldn't be black characters because it's set in a European setting, or is influenced by European myth. One is purely about the internal consistencies of a fictional world, the other is trying connect it to the real world and dragging in ideas about culture and identity and ethnicity, which can be dodgy ground.

I also agree that even if they can't invent a reason why there came to be a black elf, it shouldn't take you out of the story and it's not changing anything fundamental about the character. So even if you believe it's not internally consistent, it's not something that justifies the hysterical reaction and talk of woke propaganda and culture being destroyed. Unfortunately 90% of YouTube videos and comments seem to be taking that approach.

[Sheer Magnetism]

I've seen some people saying it's like putting white people in Black Panther. But the difference is, while BP is set in a fictional country, it's still set in the real world, where in an isolated African country almost everyone would be black. And also, there is no way they would react the same way if white people were cast in BP, which just shows their hypocrisy.

Apart from the obvious point that not everyone from Africa is a dark-skinned black person, Wakanda is a fictional country in a fictional world where people have magical powers, the normal rules of physics don't apply and there are infinite numbers of universes.

The makers could have easily made it a multicultural country, invent new characters or change their ethnicity if they wanted to, but they would never dare to for political reasons (which was, incidentally, also the right choice artistically). It has nothing to do with Wakanda 'being on Earth' - we're talking about a universe where Idris Elba plays a Norse deity. Why invent false parallels and justifications when everyone knows why the studio made the decision?

[Rob Dylan]

Apart from the obvious point that not everyone from Africa is a dark-skinned black person, Wakanda is a fictional country in a fictional world where people have magical powers, the normal rules of physics don't apply and there are infinite numbers of universes.

The makers could have easily made it a multicultural country, invent new characters or change their ethnicity if they wanted to, but they would never dare to for political reasons (which was, incidentally, also the right choice artistically). It has nothing to do with Wakanda 'being on Earth' - we're talking about a universe where Idris Elba plays a Norse deity. Why invent false parallels and justifications when everyone knows why the studio made the decision?

Not sure what you're getting at here. I haven't invented a 'false parallel', it's literally one of the arguments used by the people criticising the casting - that it's like casting white people in BP. I was just pointing out that it was a flawed comparison. And that if they had cast white people in BP, those people would not be up in arms in the way they are about this.

Also in an African country which had been completely isolated from the rest of the world (and the rest of Africa) for thousands(?) of years, virtually everyone would be black. It wouldn't make sense to change their ethnicity or move it out of Africa, since it's called Black Panther and the ethnicity of the character is a fundamental part of the story. But putting a couple of black characters in LOTR is not fundamentally changing anything. They're not even characters who already exist.

[Riquende]

Where is LOTR based?

I'm sure this isn't news to most people in here, but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micheldever

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Michel_Delving

So the capital (for want of a better term) of the Shire at least, is in Hampshire.

[Riquende]

Unfortunately 90% of YouTube videos and comments seem to be taking that approach.

It's the poison of the modern age - people want to monetise and make income from these videos, and so depend on their content being widely shared to reach bigger audiences. As a result they have to be the loudest, most controversial etc. Even if you disagree with them, you might still show the content to someone with "Look at this idiot". Clicks matter.

Nobody's going to send links to their mates of even-handed analysis and considered opinions.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

There's an important distinction to make here. You gave the example of Chinese mythology - those myths (like any) are based on stories that people believed to be real, and are set in the real world (where yes, almost everyone would be Chinese). But LOTR is a work of fiction, nobody believes it is real, and more importantly, it is not set in the real world. A Chinese myth would be based in China, a Norse myth would be based in Scandinavia. Where is LOTR based? So to argue that 'everyone would be white' is meaningless, as this is a world that never existed. It's like saying, 'you wouldn't get that type of alien living on that planet' in Star Wars. There aren't the same 'rules' that would exist with something set in the real world, even if it's fictional.

I've seen some people saying it's like putting white people in Black Panther. But the difference is, while BP is set in a fictional country, it's still set in the real world, where in an isolated African country almost everyone would be black. And also, there is no way they would react the same way if white people were cast in BP, which just shows their hypocrisy.

There's nothing in LOTR that says there can't be black characters (and there are people from other areas in Middle Earth who are dark-skinned), but even if a black elf can't be explained, so what? It doesn't have to be another front in the culture war. Obviously the people making the show can still be criticised for doing things that don't work or fit the spirit of LOTR, but a lot of this is quite hysterical and goes way beyond that, into some kind of moral crusade, they're trying to brainwash us with woke propaganda, it's a betrayal of Tolkien, they're trying to deliberately insult the fans, etc etc.

And I only said some of it is veering into white supremacist ideas. But when you see white bearded American dudes talking about 'European culture' and 'Western Christian values' being destroyed, and sinister forces who control the media, it's pretty obvious what they're getting at.

Elves, dwarves, goblins, trolls etc are "white" mythology. I see no reason why should this offend someone. There are a lot of black people on YT who are fans of Tolkien books, saying this americanization of Tolkien work is nonsense. There are people who are very passionate about mythology, and any wrongly interpretation of it will surely trigger them, and rightly so in my opinion.

[Rob Dylan]

Elves, dwarves, goblins, trolls etc are "white" mythology. I see no reason why should this offend someone. There are a lot of black people on YT who are fans of Tolkien books, saying this americanization of Tolkien work is nonsense. There are people who are very passionate about mythology, and any wrongly interpretation of it will surely trigger them, and rightly so in my opinion.

The only people being 'offended' here are the people who are up in arms against it. And it's important to understand the difference between actual real mythology and a work of fiction - LOTR is the latter. It is not 'mythology', it didn't develop organically from actual events or things that people believed to be true. It's no more actual 'mythology' than Star Wars is (it's just a lot more detailed and sophisticated). It can be adapted and interpreted in different ways. The stories they're telling in this show were never fully fleshed out by Tolkien, and these characters are new, so they're not even changing existing characters.

Also how does adding a couple of black characters amount to 'Americanisation'? Based on what we've seen (a 1 minute trailer), it's no more 'Americanised' than Peter Jackson's adaptation was.

Why should they be 'triggered'? If it turns out to be bad, they've not lost anything, the source material still exists. As I said earlier, many of these videos and comments go way beyond just Tolkien fans saying that a black elf or dwarf is physically impossible in that world - they're in full-on culture war territory, saying it's woke propaganda and amounts to European culture being destroyed and 'white genocide'.

[TepidT2O]

Elves, dwarves, goblins, trolls etc are "white" mythology. I see no reason why should this offend someone.

Because it’s nonsense

They just come from books that happened to be written when Britain was 99% white.

It isn’t any more.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Because it’s nonsense

They just come from books that happened to be written when Britain was 99% white.

It isn’t any more.

If you don't like the way the books were written, then start writing your own books with your imagination and fantasy, you can add there whatever you want. No need to twist someone's else work just because you don't like it.

[TepidT2O]

If you don't like the way the books were written, then start writing your own books with your imagination and fantasy, you can add there whatever you want. No need to twist someone's else work just because you don't like it.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Elves, dwarves, goblins, trolls etc are "white" mythology.

 

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

The only people being 'offended' here are the people who are up in arms against it. And it's important to understand the difference between actual real mythology and a work of fiction - LOTR is the latter. It is not 'mythology', it didn't develop organically from actual events or things that people believed to be true. It's no more actual 'mythology' than Star Wars is (it's just a lot more detailed and sophisticated). It can be adapted and interpreted in different ways. The stories they're telling in this show were never fully fleshed out by Tolkien, and these characters are new, so they're not even changing existing characters.

Also how does adding a couple of black characters amount to 'Americanisation'? Based on what we've seen (a 1 minute trailer), it's no more 'Americanised' than Peter Jackson's adaptation was.

Why should they be 'triggered'? If it turns out to be bad, they've not lost anything, the source material still exists. As I said earlier, many of these videos and comments go way beyond just Tolkien fans saying that a black elf or dwarf is physically impossible in that world - they're in full-on culture war territory, saying it's woke propaganda and amounts to European culture being destroyed and 'white genocide'.

Seriously you're going to compare Peter Jackson's "americanization" with the americanization of this new show with black elves and black dwarves? Characters and races and their appearances are well explained in Tolkien's books. Elves are german mythology, and "elf" literally means white or pale creatures. For a german especially, i bet it looks ridiculous to see an black elf in tv shows, just like for swedes would feel ridiculous to see a black Thor. You can't ignore the fact that the tendency to americanize the show is real.

I think there are three groups of people criticizing this show. 1. Fanatics of mythology 2. Fanatics of Tolkien books and 3. Racist c*nts. Third group can get to fuck, but i understand first and second group. You shouldn't put everyone in that third bag.

[TepidT2O]

Fuck me

This thread should be sponsored by Jim Davidson

[Sheer Magnetism]

Not sure what you're getting at here. I haven't invented a 'false parallel', it's literally one of the arguments used by the people criticising the casting - that it's like casting white people in BP. I was just pointing out that it was a flawed comparison. And that if they had cast white people in BP, those people would not be up in arms in the way they are about this.

Also in an African country which had been completely isolated from the rest of the world (and the rest of Africa) for thousands(?) of years, virtually everyone would be black. It wouldn't make sense to change their ethnicity or move it out of Africa, since it's called Black Panther and the ethnicity of the character is a fundamental part of the story. But putting a couple of black characters in LOTR is not fundamentally changing anything. They're not even characters who already exist.

The comparison is apt, the dichotomy you've created isn't. Wakanda could have easily had non-black people in it because it's an imaginary place in an imaginary universe, just like Middle Earth. They could put anyone they want in there for whatever reason and it would make no more or less sense than having different races of elves.

You see, this is what irritates me: the hypocrisy. If they'd inserted a white character in there, there would have been uproar from the usual suspects on Twitter, just like there was when Scarlett Johansson was cast to play a cyborg in a film set in Tokyo, or even when Marvel didn't change the ethnicity of Iron Fist for the TV show. Of course there would have been an uproar if they'd changed a Black Panther character to white, just like there was when Kevin Feige had to apologise for casting Tilda Swinton in Dr Strange. Pretending this doesn't exist, and that there's some massive difference between Wakanda and the Shire that means the fantasy logic only applies to one and not the other, is a bad faith argument.

The other reason it's hypocritical is of course because Amazon has no interest in giving money to a non-white creator to helm their own big-budget fantasy show, or even to adapt work by an existing writer like Octavia Butler, Liu Cixin or NK Jemisin, despite the success of films like Black Panther and Shang-Chi showing there is a market for it. But they expect everyone to believe they really care about diversity and that the only reason someone could dislike it is because of racism.

[RJH]

Seriously you're going to compare Peter Jackson's "americanization" with the americanization of this new show with black elves and black dwarves?

If I was asked what I thought "americanization" involved, I'm not sure how many attempts it would take me to guess "cast a black brit as a dwarf and a Puerto Rican as an Elf".

Personally, I'm really not bothered by them having non-white people in the cast. It doesnt make any difference to the story - the different cultures in LotR are important, but that isn't the same as the skin colour of individuals.

[Rob Dylan]

The comparison is apt, the dichotomy you've created isn't. Wakanda could have easily had non-black people in it because it's an imaginary place in an imaginary universe, just like Middle Earth. They could put anyone they want in there for whatever reason and it would make no more or less sense than having different races of elves.

You see, this is what irritates me: the hypocrisy. If they'd inserted a white character in there, there would have been uproar from the usual suspects on Twitter, just like there was when Scarlett Johansson was cast to play a cyborg in a film set in Tokyo, or even when Marvel didn't change the ethnicity of Iron Fist for the TV show. Of course there would have been an uproar if they'd changed a Black Panther character to white, just like there was when Kevin Feige had to apologise for casting Tilda Swinton in Dr Strange. Pretending this doesn't exist, and that there's some massive difference between Wakanda and the Shire that means the fantasy logic only applies to one and not the other, is a bad faith argument.

The other reason it's hypocritical is of course because Amazon has no interest in giving money to a non-white creator to helm their own big-budget fantasy show, or even to adapt work by an existing writer like Octavia Butler, Liu Cixin or NK Jemisin, despite the success of films like Black Panther and Shang-Chi showing there is a market for it. But they expect everyone to believe they really care about diversity and that the only reason someone could dislike it is because of racism.

This isn't entirely accurate though. Wakanda is an imaginary place, but Africa isn't and neither is the world which the villain of the story wants to take over - including the USA, where part of the film takes place and the villain grew up. It also deals with issues of slavery and racism in America which are things that actually happened in our history. It's set in the real world, our world, but imaginary things are happening in it. Whereas Middle Earth is an entirely imaginary world, where none of the places, characters or races have ever existed and none of the historical events have ever happened.

To set BP in a completely different world and give the characters a different ethnicity would make no sense at all, because the whole point of the character is that he's black, he's called Black Panther after the political movement in America in the 60s, the villain's main motivation is revenge for the exploitation of black people throughout history and he's a black person who grew up in America. It's a film about black identity and history. Change it to a different world and make the characters not black, and it's a completely different story. Whereas adding a couple of (new) black characters into Middle Earth does not fundamentally change the story or the identity of the main character.

And of course there would've been outrage if white actors had been cast in BP, but my point is that it wouldn't have come from a lot of these people who are up in arms at the moment, complaining about woke propaganda and the destruction of European culture. Even if they thought it made no sense, they wouldn't have been reacting in the hysterical way they are now.

[Rob Dylan]

Seriously you're going to compare Peter Jackson's "americanization" with the americanization of this new show with black elves and black dwarves? Characters and races and their appearances are well explained in Tolkien's books. Elves are german mythology, and "elf" literally means white or pale creatures. For a german especially, i bet it looks ridiculous to see an black elf in tv shows, just like for swedes would feel ridiculous to see a black Thor. You can't ignore the fact that the tendency to americanize the show is real.

I think there are three groups of people criticizing this show. 1. Fanatics of mythology 2. Fanatics of Tolkien books and 3. Racist c*nts. Third group can get to fuck, but i understand first and second group. You shouldn't put everyone in that third bag.

Can you explain exactly how casting two non-white actors (neither of whom are actually American) amounts to 'Americanisation'?

If they all talk with American accents and use modern vernacular, then the accusation might stick. But considering we haven't yet seen a single episode or even a scene with dialogue, I'd say it's premature.

And why would 'fans of mythology' be critical of the show? As I said, LOTR is not real mythology. As for accusing every critic of racism, I explicitly said it was some of the people criticising it who are veering into that territory. But there are a lot of videos and comments along those lines, and it's what is dominating the online conversation.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Can you explain exactly how casting two non-white actors (neither of whom are actually American) amounts to 'Americanisation'?

If they all talk with American accents and use modern vernacular, then the accusation might stick. But considering we haven't yet seen a single episode or even a scene with dialogue, I'd say it's premature.

And why would 'fans of mythology' be critical of the show? As I said, LOTR is not real mythology. As for accusing every critic of racism, I explicitly said it was some of the people criticising it who are veering into that territory. But there are a lot of videos and comments along those lines, and it's what is dominating the online conversation.

https://youtu.be/E4c2KiUGr7Q

[Sheer Magnetism]

This isn't entirely accurate though. Wakanda is an imaginary place, but Africa isn't and neither is the world which the villain of the story wants to take over - including the USA, where part of the film takes place and the villain grew up. It also deals with issues of slavery and racism in America which are things that actually happened in our history. It's set in the real world, our world, but imaginary things are happening in it. Whereas Middle Earth is an entirely imaginary world, where none of the places, characters or races have ever existed and none of the historical events have ever happened.

To set BP in a completely different world and give the characters a different ethnicity would make no sense at all, because the whole point of the character is that he's black, he's called Black Panther after the political movement in America in the 60s, the villain's main motivation is revenge for the exploitation of black people throughout history and he's a black person who grew up in America. It's a film about black identity and history. Change it to a different world and make the characters not black, and it's a completely different story. Whereas adding a couple of (new) black characters into Middle Earth does not fundamentally change the story or the identity of the main character.

But this is all taking place in a different universe to ours, the 'Africa' and 'America' you're talking about have literally no people in common with the real world. The Africa you're talking about is a place where a magical element called vibranium exists that made everyone around it super intelligent, where somehow no one noticed a vast blank space in the middle of a continent for centuries, where somehow a super-advanced society sprung up which has no technological influence from anywhere else on earth - contrary to every other civilisation in history - while seemingly being hugely culturally influenced by other African countries and having no contact with America. Why would the black panthers there have any relation to Wakanda?

And all that is fine because it's a fantasy, but you can't say it's okay to change characters' ethnicities in every other part of this fantasy world but not Wakanda. No plane could ever crash near that vast stretch of land? No explorer could ever find it? That would be insane in a world subject to multiple alien invasions, where magic canonically exists and exposure to radiation turns people into a Hulk or Abomination instead of causing them to die of radiation sickness? Marvel literally makes up a different universe every time it brings out a new film! I mean, maybe you're an elite-level Tolkien scholar, but the people who are massive Tolkien fiends are saying this doesn't make sense in the context of that world.

And of course there would've been outrage if white actors had been cast in BP, but my point is that it wouldn't have come from a lot of these people who are up in arms at the moment, complaining about woke propaganda and the destruction of European culture. Even if they thought it made no sense, they wouldn't have been reacting in the hysterical way they are now.

But what's the difference? You're selective in the same way they are, just in the opposite direction, so how can you claim this is about anything else but political stance?

[Rob Dylan]

But this is all taking place in a different universe to ours, the 'Africa' and 'America' you're talking about have literally no people in common with the real world. The Africa you're talking about is a place where a magical element called vibranium exists that made everyone around it super intelligent, where somehow no one noticed a vast blank space in the middle of a continent for centuries, where somehow a super-advanced society sprung up which has no technological influence from anywhere else on earth - contrary to every other civilisation in history - while seemingly being hugely culturally influenced by other African countries and having no contact with America. Why would the black panthers there have any relation to Wakanda?

And all that is fine because it's a fantasy, but you can't say it's okay to change characters' ethnicities in every other part of this fantasy world but not Wakanda. No plane could ever crash near that vast stretch of land? No explorer could ever find it? That would be insane in a world subject to multiple alien invasions, where magic canonically exists and exposure to radiation turns people into a Hulk or Abomination instead of causing them to die of radiation sickness? Marvel literally makes up a different universe every time it brings out a new film! I mean, maybe you're an elite-level Tolkien scholar, but the people who are massive Tolkien fiends are saying this doesn't make sense in the context of that world.
But what's the difference? You're selective in the same way they are, just in the opposite direction, so how can you claim this is about anything else but political stance?

The majority of fictional stories set in our world have 'no people in common with the real world', unless they throw in a real historical figure or famous person somewhere. But most fictional novels, movies and TV dramas don't do that - it doesn't mean they're set in an entirely imaginary, fantasy world. BP is still set in our world, which we recognise and a world where Africa and America and all those historical events exist. Just because things happen there that couldn't happen in real life, the actual setting is still the real world. There's a clear difference between that and Middle Earth, none of which has ever existed. And Wakanda is a place where the majority of the people would be black, and as I said, the whole story is about black history and identity in our world. The 'Black Panther' character in the comics was named after the movement in America.

So changing it to a completely different, imaginary world (as you suggested) and changing the characters ethnicity makes it a completely different story and the main character a completely different character, and you couldn't even call it 'Black' Panther anymore. Having two black characters in a LOTR series does not have anything like the same impact. It does not change the whole story and the identity of the main characters. LOTR is not a story about white elvish identity, and their historical exploitation and slavery, is it?

I'm not being selective at all - some people are saying the two scenarios are the same, I'm saying they're different. The difference is as I have explained before.

And again, simply saying that the existence of a black elf is not possible in that world (for practical reasons) is a lot different to the extreme and hysterical reactions talking about woke propaganda and the destruction of Western culture currently circulating online. Which is what I was criticising in the first place.

[Rob Dylan]

https://youtu.be/E4c2KiUGr7Q

Nope, that does not explain how casting two non-American actors is 'Americanisation'. Try again.

[Sheer Magnetism]

But it isn't our world, it has nothing to do with our world and it's canonically in a completely different universe. It's about black history because of a conscious decision by the studio (but more realistically by Ryan Coogler). That is no more inherent than anything else in a fictional adaptation. Is it a stance that paid off artistically? Obviously yes, but it was still a subjective decision. You either respect the creator/creator's vision or you don't, and I'm yet to hear any kind of argument that the changes in the new LOTR were for artistic reasons that enhance the story, let alone a compelling one. If you would like to present a cogent argument about how inserting racial differences within species in Middle Earth enhances the core story, go ahead.

[Rob Dylan]

But it isn't our world, it has nothing to do with our world and it's canonically in a completely different universe. It's about black history because of a conscious decision by the studio (but more realistically by Ryan Coogler). That is no more inherent than anything else in a fictional adaptation. Is it a stance that paid off artistically? Obviously yes, but it was still a subjective decision. You either respect the creator/creator's vision or you don't, and I'm yet to hear any kind of argument that the changes in the new LOTR were for artistic reasons that enhance the story, let alone a compelling one.

Of course it's our world, it has almost the whole of human history up to 2012 in common with our world, it's not a complete fantasy world in which nothing in it has ever existed. How can you not see the difference? A world where human history has developed in almost exactly the same way as in reality, where the same races live in the same countries, who have the same position in the world, where culture and has developed in the same way, etc etc...how can that have 'nothing to do with our world'? There's a reason most Marvel movies (at least, the ones set on Earth) don't need much 'world building' - it's because we already recognise and understand that world.

And the character was always the black ruler of an isolated country in Africa, and the villain was always someone originally from that country who grew up elsewhere and was resentful. When the character first appeared in the 70s as probably the first black superhero, obviously issues of race and black identity were important and were being explored. The idea that you could make the Black Panther character not black or detach it from those issues is just bizarre.

As for 'racial differences enhancing the core story' - well firstly there were always 'racial differences' (different types of hobbits, elves etc.) - but if you're talking purely about skin colour, no that in itself does not 'enhance the core story' - but neither does it damage it.

[Brian Blessed]

If in this day and age you don’t know why it’s problematic that white people being cast in people of colour roles is nothing like POC being cast in “white” roles I don’t know what to say.

God knows what the attitude would be if the characters were gay. Or even worse, trans.

Time to stop punching down.

[Sheer Magnetism]

It isn't the same world because our world does not have superheroes in, there was never any such country as Wakanda and the very idea such a country could exist in anything approximating our reality is completely and utterly insane. Saying it has "almost the whole of human history up to 2012 in common with our world" is batshit because our world does not have magic or superheroes in it, and again, IT IS CANONICALLY A DIFFERENT REALITY EVEN WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE FILM ITSELF.

Seriously, why are you still sticking by this idea it even remotely pertains to our world objectively in any way? You might as well say Narnia should be taken seriously as a realistic work of art because it begins in a Britain we recognise. I agree with you that Black Panther should have been adapted the way it was, because that was what it was the creators' visiion (though I'm not sure where you got the idea anyone had suggested making him, as opposed to other characters within the country, non-black). Where we disagree is that you seem to believe the same standard should not apply to other things. The difference is clearly to do with the relative skin colours and not any objective weighing up of the worlds - why can't you just be honest and admit that?