Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[John C]

Best thread title ever.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Best thread title ever.

[Dr. Beaker]

Best thread title ever.

He left out Bullingdon.

[Indomitable_Carp]

English & Welsh - so sort of east & west. 

Just as a comparison to the Scottish Greens, who (and I don't mean this as a dig) are proper socialist, fairly sensible and competent. Not something I really associate with the E&W greens I'm afraid.

Nothing wrong with conservationism, I just mean it is an area of Green politics that is also appealing to more conservative people, so more likely to attract Tory voters than the Scottish Greens.

The English and Welsh Greens are a broader church then some would expect. You do get a lot of small "c" conservatives in the Greens. But they are definitely far outnumbered by those on the left of the spectrum. It does get a lot of disaffected Labour voters who feel Labour isn´t left-wing enough (or some variation on that sentiment). What counts as "proper" socialist these days I wouldn´t know.

I expect it also varies massively from local party to local party.

What I would say (and I did go to one of the conferences here in Liverpool) is that you definitely do get your share of fruitcakes, and it seems fairly shambolic at times. But again I think it varies greatly from locality to locality. Some of the local parties run some pretty slick operations I believe.

I would have thought one of the key reasons for the Scottish Greens not attracting Tory voters is because the Scottish Greens are pro-independence? I´m sure with that removed from the equation you could still find some crossover with conservative nymbism and the like in the North East and other such places.

[John C]

Zeb do you listen to the Oh God What Now podcast? (formerly Remainiacs). Yesterdays was good, it put some of the election results in context, talked about the gains and potential rationale behind Hartlepool and a few other things. They are all superb at measuring the political landscape.

[Zeb]

Zeb do you listen to the Oh God What Now podcast? (formerly Remainiacs). Yesterdays was good, it put some of the election results in context, talked about the gains and potential rationale behind Hartlepool and a few other things. They are all superb at measuring the political landscape.

I've not been, no. Cut right back on news/current affairs last year. Only occasionally catch the Politico one now (latest is quite a decent interview with Angela Rayner). Will have a listen though. Did attend a virtual event with a load of pollsters and politicians doing a summary of where things were at which was quite useful. Yougov's Anthony Wells put loads into context pretty well, wish I'd done screenshots of some of the charts showing just how disconnected some of the narratives have been from the changes which have taken place and just how bad the starting point was for things like being perceived to be competent enough to govern.

[John C]

Yep, ta Zeb and I understand, even that is an hour, there's limited time in the day.

All the contributors are excellent and if you get Ian Dunt (he isn't in this one) on a good day he's brutal about the corrupt Tory c*nts.

[No666]

Lib Dems, Labour and Independents cooperating to take control of Cambridge County Council. I really hope they make it work. The new Cambs mayor is Labour and seems open to cooperation and common sense. If this goes well, there could be a real push to get the Tory MP out at the next election.

[12C]

I guess their thinking is that a lot of the mistakes/misjudgements are already in the public domain. They'll drag the process out and whilst I don't think they can get away with a total whitewash you'd imagine that they'll ensure that any criticism in the final report is comparatively gentle.

Look how long the Grenfell inquiry is taking.
We have had two GEs since the fire and the inquiry was announced almost immediately.
The Manchester Bombing inquiry is similarly long winded.
By the time we ever get to a final report I would think we are looking as 2026. Hancock will be no longer an Mp but a lobbyist for private healthcare companies. Johnson will be on a Russian yacht somewhere writing his memoirs, and Gove will be PM and denying he had any part in the fiasco

[12C]

The English and Welsh Greens are a broader church then some would expect. You do get a lot of small "c" conservatives in the Greens. But they are definitely far outnumbered by those on the left of the spectrum. It does get a lot of disaffected Labour voters who feel Labour isn´t left-wing enough (or some variation on that sentiment). What counts as "proper" socialist these days I wouldn´t know.

I expect it also varies massively from local party to local party.

What I would say (and I did go to one of the conferences here in Liverpool) is that you definitely do get your share of fruitcakes, and it seems fairly shambolic at times. But again I think it varies greatly from locality to locality. Some of the local parties run some pretty slick operations I believe.

I would have thought one of the key reasons for the Scottish Greens not attracting Tory voters is because the Scottish Greens are pro-independence? I´m sure with that removed from the equation you could still find some crossover with conservative nymbism and the like in the North East and other such places.

Locally in Liverpool, I know of a lot of LibDems (including an ex councillor)  who “migrated” to the greens once Storey’s act was rumbled and they were shown the door.

[Elmo!]

I would have thought one of the key reasons for the Scottish Greens not attracting Tory voters is because the Scottish Greens are pro-independence? I´m sure with that removed from the equation you could still find some crossover with conservative nymbism and the like in the North East and other such places.

For suer that would put them off, but pretty much their whole manifesto would put off Tories.... 

The North East is full of ooil workers that are against the Grees policy of stoppping all oil exploration. Thoough we havee finally elected our first Green MSP on the regional vote.

[PatriotScouser]

Lib Dems, Labour and Independents cooperating to take control of Cambridge County Council. I really hope they make it work. The new Cambs mayor is Labour and seems open to cooperation and common sense. If this goes well, there could be a real push to get the Tory MP out at the next election.

I hate this and told my friend who's the Labour Group leader this too but to no avail. Doing deals with the Libs. Disgusting.

Also what do you mean get the tory MP out at the next election? Cambridge already as a Labour MP and after the city and county council elections last week we almost made the Lib Dems as dead as the tories in Cambridge. But oh no we had to push them back into the fold in Cambridge by being their junior partner in a coalition. Junior partners do really well in coalitions!!

[No666]

I hate this and told my friend who's the Labour Group leader this too but to no avail. Doing deals with the Libs. Disgusting.

Also what do you mean get the tory MP out at the next election? Cambridge already as a Labour MP and after the city and county council elections last week we almost made the Lib Dems as dead as the tories in Cambridge. But oh no we had to push them back into the fold in Cambridge by being their junior partner in a coalition. Junior partners do really well in coalitions!!

Well, the alternative to the deal is more years of Tory power at County level. And Cambridge city is one small part of CCC - I'm in S Cambs so have the Tory MP who wrote a disgusting diatribe about immigrants - a non-partisan, adult, leftish coalition is infinitely preferable at County level and might impress enough by not being adversarial for the Lib Dems to unseat him (Labour haven't got a hope here). I have no problem with non adversarial politics.

[HarryLabrador]

Lib Dems, Labour and Independents cooperating to take control of Cambridge County Council. I really hope they make it work. The new Cambs mayor is Labour and seems open to cooperation and common sense. If this goes well, there could be a real push to get the Tory MP out at the next election.

We are seriously delighted Dr. Nik Johnson is our mayor!!! Absolutely shocked a Labour mayor represents Cambs.

[PatriotScouser]

Well, the alternative to the deal is more years of Tory power at County level. And Cambridge city is one small part of CCC - I'm in S Cambs so have the Tory MP who wrote a disgusting diatribe about immigrants - a non-partisan, adult, leftish coalition is infinitely preferable at County level and might impress enough by not being adversarial for the Lib Dems to unseat him (Labour haven't got a hope here). I have no problem with non adversarial politics.

   
We could have had a Tory minority running CCC with Cambridge Labour making demands for Cambridge instead we are a junior partner in a coalition! We can't implement our own plans but will get the blame for decisions aka the worse of both worlds. As I have seen elsewhere, Labour has often been able to deliver more of its agenda and policies through taking skilful advantage of NOC situations rather than committing to coalition deals with the Lib Dems, whose primary concerns tend to be tactical rather than principled.

By doing what we've done Labour have allowed them to close the gap on us on who is more left wing and progressive. Why should property owners who want fewer houses built and less council tax vote for us rather than them?

We’ve given the Lib Dems precisely the lie they need to say ‘We aren’t Clegg-style Coalition Tory lites! We are nice, cuddly middle-class extensions of the Labour Party!’

One of the reasons the 2013-17 term was so productive was because experienced Independent, Tory, and Labour councillors all agreed on how little we could trust the Lib Dems.

The County Council is in a state of financial collapse. It can barely administer its statutory services. Frankly, it doesn't matter which party runs it: the finances are so tight, nobody can put their own stamp on the council. It's simply an exercise in managing decline and taking the blame. At one point when my friend was Labour group leader from 2013-17 one at-risk child - God forbid - falling through the cracks and being subject to legal challenge could send the council into the receivers. What, exactly, will CCC be able to do? What policies will we be able to implement? What would you cut instead (that, I bet you, the Liberals wouldn't - whatever it is)? What is this a golden opportunity for? The 'agreement' doesn't even stipulate a long-term tax or income strategy, for fuck's sake. We have office, but absolutely no power.
And, of course, you know what'll happen if we actually want to do anything by proposing to raise council tax higher than the Liberals and trying to earmark it for that policy.
This isn’t some nutty Corbynite Trot speaking. This is cold, hard political reality. The County is in a state of collapse and there’s nothing any party can do about it. The whole point of mayoral devolution is to run these authorities down and break them up. Far better to go for an all-party committee system and share the blame proportionately under the pretext of democracy.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

We are seriously delighted Dr. Nik Johnson is our mayor!!! Absolutely shocked a Labour mayor represents Cambs.

[Zeb]

Yep, ta Zeb and I understand, even that is an hour, there's limited time in the day.

All the contributors are excellent and if you get Ian Dunt (he isn't in this one) on a good day he's brutal about the corrupt Tory c*nts.

Had a listen but think I need to go back when they release the subscribers version publicly? One I've got access too still has Dunt on it.

Got the Progress event on in the background today. Starmer's just been on talking about all sorts. Policy review won't just be cut and paste of past manifestos, which is going to get some excited but is essentially the recommendation from across all parts of the party from the review of 2019's failure in focusing on a message. Opinium's Chris Curtis is being interesting at the moment on not alienating voters and being seen to represent them (using Wales as an example - I would argue Burnham did the same with buy in on homelessness, being seen to largely deliver on it, not being on a demo over everything but picking battles). Curtis argument is similar to Wells' the other day that there's positive changes there feeding through even as the polling has shifted back to the Tories being 10 points and change ahead, especially on the core problem of Labour not being trusted to run anything and having an economic argument which the public, generally, don't understand and don't believe (ie you're raising our taxes or you're not improving public services or you're increasing public debt instead are the only options which are broadly believed at the moment).

[Welshred]

https://twitter.com/OprosUK/status/1393645829391634432?s=19

[Snail]

Genuine question, given the fairly horrific polling that's coming out on a daily basis, does anyone actually think it's a good idea to stick with Starmer until the next GE?

Me, personally, I want him gone but I can't see who takes his place who'd be much good. Maybe Lewis, but I'm not a huge fan, and Burnham is a) not an MP, b) recently re-elected Mayor of Manchester with a ridiculous majority and he can't really fuck them off and, c) has shown in the past he's something of a weathervane and I don't 100% trust him. It's a total mess.

Looking further into the future, I think my MP Dan Carden could be leadership material, but I've heard through the grapevine his dad might have some links to the council shenanigans so that's probably a non-starter. He's a good speaker though and has "something". He's dead young though and has plenty of time to turn into a gobshite.

[Machae]

David Lammy, although hes black and that would be a problem for racist twats

[TepidT2O]

David Lammy, although hes black and that would be a problem for racist twats

I’m not sure about Lammy. Lots to like, but I’m not sure he’s head of the party material.

I don’t think being black would be a big issue on the whole.

[RainbowFlick]

David Lammy, although hes black and that would be a problem for racist twats

I'm not sure he really inspires confidence to be honest and I know a lot of my Black friends are pretty critical of him.

I think Labour as a whole is in a terrible place and should probably just choose where they want to pitch themselves going forward. To me, they've now solidified themselves as the centre/centre-right party. That is not what many of us want.

[killer-heels]

Genuine question, given the fairly horrific polling that's coming out on a daily basis, does anyone actually think it's a good idea to stick with Starmer until the next GE?

Me, personally, I want him gone but I can't see who takes his place who'd be much good. Maybe Lewis, but I'm not a huge fan, and Burnham is a) not an MP, b) recently re-elected Mayor of Manchester with a ridiculous majority and he can't really fuck them off and, c) has shown in the past he's something of a weathervane and I don't 100% trust him. It's a total mess.

Looking further into the future, I think my MP Dan Carden could be leadership material, but I've heard through the grapevine his dad might have some links to the council shenanigans so that's probably a non-starter. He's a good speaker though and has "something". He's dead young though and has plenty of time to turn into a gobshite.

Yes, he should stick it out until at least the next election. Absolutely.

If you mean Clive Lewis then absolutely no way.

David Lammy, although hes black and that would be a problem for racist twats

No way to him either.

[ShakaHislop]

Genuine question, given the fairly horrific polling that's coming out on a daily basis, does anyone actually think it's a good idea to stick with Starmer until the next GE?

Me, personally, I want him gone but I can't see who takes his place who'd be much good. Maybe Lewis, but I'm not a huge fan, and Burnham is a) not an MP, b) recently re-elected Mayor of Manchester with a ridiculous majority and he can't really fuck them off and, c) has shown in the past he's something of a weathervane and I don't 100% trust him. It's a total mess.

Looking further into the future, I think my MP Dan Carden could be leadership material, but I've heard through the grapevine his dad might have some links to the council shenanigans so that's probably a non-starter. He's a good speaker though and has "something". He's dead young though and has plenty of time to turn into a gobshite.

There's a part of me that wants either of Burnham or Nandy in ASAP just to lance that particular boil and prove that the professional Northerner/flag waving deluxe route isn't the way to go.

[Red-Soldier]

Genuine question, given the fairly horrific polling that's coming out on a daily basis, does anyone actually think it's a good idea to stick with Starmer until the next GE?

Me, personally, I want him gone but I can't see who takes his place who'd be much good. Maybe Lewis, but I'm not a huge fan, and Burnham is a) not an MP, b) recently re-elected Mayor of Manchester with a ridiculous majority and he can't really fuck them off and, c) has shown in the past he's something of a weathervane and I don't 100% trust him. It's a total mess.

Looking further into the future, I think my MP Dan Carden could be leadership material, but I've heard through the grapevine his dad might have some links to the council shenanigans so that's probably a non-starter. He's a good speaker though and has "something". He's dead young though and has plenty of time to turn into a gobshite.

Green party co-leader tells Keir Starmer: my door is open for talks

After Green gains in local elections, Jonathan Bartley invites Labour leader to discuss progressive alliance

Bartley believes some form of wider alliance with Labour at the next general election could prove beneficial for a “progressive alliance”, an idea some experts think may be the best or perhaps only way to counter a surging Tory party.

“We have been governing with Labour and the Lib Dems in councils; we have reached out to Labour. The ball is in the court of the Labour party – we are always ready to talk,” he told the Guardian in an interview. “Will Labour ever be able to form a government on its own? That’s a legitimate question to ask.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/16/green-party-jonathan-bartley-keir-starmer-door-is-open-for-talks

[jameslfc1997]

Green party co-leader tells Keir Starmer: my door is open for talks

After Green gains in local elections, Jonathan Bartley invites Labour leader to discuss progressive alliance

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/16/green-party-jonathan-bartley-keir-starmer-door-is-open-for-talks

Kier should take that seriously. Shame can't swap Corbyn for Bartley and Berry

[Zeb]

Genuine question, given the fairly horrific polling that's coming out on a daily basis, does anyone actually think it's a good idea to stick with Starmer until the next GE?

Me, personally, I want him gone but I can't see who takes his place who'd be much good. Maybe Lewis, but I'm not a huge fan, and Burnham is a) not an MP, b) recently re-elected Mayor of Manchester with a ridiculous majority and he can't really fuck them off and, c) has shown in the past he's something of a weathervane and I don't 100% trust him. It's a total mess.

Looking further into the future, I think my MP Dan Carden could be leadership material, but I've heard through the grapevine his dad might have some links to the council shenanigans so that's probably a non-starter. He's a good speaker though and has "something". He's dead young though and has plenty of time to turn into a gobshite.

Dan Carden won't even get on the ballot. Too close to Uncle Len's fun bus.

As for the polling, a bit of perspective worthwhile.

[Sangria]

I'm not sure he really inspires confidence to be honest and I know a lot of my Black friends are pretty critical of him.

I think Labour as a whole is in a terrible place and should probably just choose where they want to pitch themselves going forward. To me, they've now solidified themselves as the centre/centre-right party. That is not what many of us want.

How?

[TepidT2O]

Farrage is holding an event in the US.

Some very unscrupulous people are booking tickets to prevent genuine fans attending.


Book yours now to stop this travesty

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/nigel-Frottage-americas-comeback-tour-2021-pittsburgh-pa-tickets-152757061483

[Elmo!]

Farrage is holding an event in the US.

Some very unscrupulous people are booking tickets to prevent genuine fans attending.


Book yours now to stop this travesty

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/nigel-Frottage-americas-comeback-tour-2021-pittsburgh-pa-tickets-152757061483

I hope these unscrupulous people don't use their real personal details when they book their tickets....

[TepidT2O]

I hope these unscrupulous people don't use their real personal details when they book their tickets....

Just call me sideshow Bob

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Genuine question, given the fairly horrific polling that's coming out on a daily basis, does anyone actually think it's a good idea to stick with Starmer until the next GE?

Me, personally, I want him gone but I can't see who takes his place who'd be much good. Maybe Lewis, but I'm not a huge fan, and Burnham is a) not an MP, b) recently re-elected Mayor of Manchester with a ridiculous majority and he can't really fuck them off and, c) has shown in the past he's something of a weathervane and I don't 100% trust him. It's a total mess.

Looking further into the future, I think my MP Dan Carden could be leadership material, but I've heard through the grapevine his dad might have some links to the council shenanigans so that's probably a non-starter. He's a good speaker though and has "something". He's dead young though and has plenty of time to turn into a gobshite.

Yeah I do. No way he can be as bad as Corbyn.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

New vote up!

[RainbowFlick]

How?

Have you not noticed the pandering to flag-waving nationalism to begin with? All the focus trying to 'win back' the 'red wall' and 'working class' which is a quiet way of saying the focus is on white people.

[Sangria]

Have you not noticed the pandering to flag-waving nationalism to begin with? All the focus trying to 'win back' the 'red wall' and 'working class' which is a quiet way of saying the focus is on white people.

How are these things mutually exclusive from the left?

[RainbowFlick]

How are these things mutually exclusive from the left?

Nationalism isn't left-wing. Beyond all the flag shagging, it's not like Starmer has shown himself to be left-wing in his term, I'm not sure how this is a debate. The Labour Party is in a grim place and most actually left-wing people are over it.

[Sangria]

Nationalism isn't left-wing. Beyond all the flag shagging, it's not like Starmer has shown himself to be left-wing in his term, I'm not sure how this is a debate. The Labour Party is in a grim place and most actually left-wing people are over it.

Maybe this determination to set itself apart from any idea of nation is why the right and far right are so successful electorally. If the left defines itself as separate from the nation of Britain, it turns off anyone who isn't quite so militant. Maybe the triumph of right wing populism in Britain isn't so much in what they do to win votes, as in what the left do to lose votes.

[Dr. Beaker]

Yvette Cooper did the Andrew Marr show yesterday. Haven't seen her head above the parapet for a long time. Fingers crossed.

[west_london_red]

I’m not sure about Lammy. Lots to like, but I’m not sure he’s head of the party material.

I don’t think being black would be a big issue on the whole.

Completely agree on the first point.

Sadly completely disagree on the second. Labour needs to win back Leave voting areas and I can’t see that being helped with a Black leader.

[killer-heels]

Completely agree on the first point.

Sadly completely disagree on the second. Labour needs to win back Leave voting areas and I can’t see that being helped with a Black leader.

Amazing coming from me but I don't think it will be a problem. The problem for a new leader won't be the colour of their skin but of their party. The brand is proper shite right now.