Topic: Never mind 'Stop the Boats' - STOP THE TORIES

[Robinred]

But I think the right is operating to the current FPTP model and would react to PR with a new farther right party or parties.  The likes of UKIP - single policy populist issue parties - would become permanent parts of the landscape.

Those parties should take more of the electorate from the Tories than the other parties but as Brexit showed they don't necessarily operate along traditional party politics lines.  Meloni's speech about raging war on consumerism (left appealing) and woke (right appealing) would suck in voters from the whole spectrum but fundamentally she heads up a neo-Nazi party.  The more those extreme right parties are given air-time the more chance they have of bringing people over to their side, Frottage is a fine example of it.

I think PR may deny the Tories the opportunity to come back and finish what they've started but equally it may bring them back to power with a supercharged right wing agenda due to their coalition partners.

I broadly agree with your analysis and share those fears. It’s barely believable yet nonetheless true that in mature democracies, the extreme right have a growing influence. Along with climate change, it’s the most disturbing world development of the past decade.

[redbyrdz]

No leccy cars or heat pumps 

Ive know the |£2500 ewas average use.  They got my bill from average use

Would a smart meter help?

A smart meter will help you monitor your use better, but it won't save you energy directly. Also the energy company gets your meter readings all the time, so they don't have to estimate your use if you don't send them regular readings. If your problem is that they overcharge, or undercharge you and you then struggle with payments, it will help.

With a smart meter, you can look at the display (which you can put somewhere convenient) and see what you are using at any time. So if you've spend half an hour hoovering, you can immediatly see what that used. That might help if you have to convince others in your family to switch things off etc.

[Red Beret]

But I think the right is operating to the current FPTP model and would react to PR with a new farther right party or parties.  The likes of UKIP - single policy populist issue parties - would become permanent parts of the landscape.

Those parties should take more of the electorate from the Tories than the other parties but as Brexit showed they don't necessarily operate along traditional party politics lines.  Meloni's speech about raging war on consumerism (left appealing) and woke (right appealing) would suck in voters from the whole spectrum but fundamentally she heads up a neo-Nazi party.  The more those extreme right parties are given air-time the more chance they have of bringing people over to their side, Frottage is a fine example of it.

I think PR may deny the Tories the opportunity to come back and finish what they've started but equally it may bring them back to power with a supercharged right wing agenda due to their coalition partners.

That's the thing about PR though. Moderate voters won't stand for a super charged, right wing agenda. They'll quickly switch sides if that happened,  and PR governments seem easier to bring down than FPTP administrations.

[thaddeus]

Truss: fracking will only go ahead if there is "local consent".

So it won't ever happen then.  The benefits locally are marginal - maybe a few jobs but most will be multinationals bringing their existing expertise in - but the costs are very localised.  No fairly collected sample of local opinions would ever reach the bar of "local consent".

An utterly pointless distraction.

[Libertine]

But I think the right is operating to the current FPTP model and would react to PR with a new farther right party or parties.  The likes of UKIP - single policy populist issue parties - would become permanent parts of the landscape.

Those parties should take more of the electorate from the Tories than the other parties but as Brexit showed they don't necessarily operate along traditional party politics lines.  Meloni's speech about raging war on consumerism (left appealing) and woke (right appealing) would suck in voters from the whole spectrum but fundamentally she heads up a neo-Nazi party.  The more those extreme right parties are given air-time the more chance they have of bringing people over to their side, Frottage is a fine example of it.

I think PR may deny the Tories the opportunity to come back and finish what they've started but equally it may bring them back to power with a supercharged right wing agenda due to their coalition partners.

One advantage of STV over pure list-based PR of course is that it encourages some sense of moderation, as to win seats candidates need to get transfers (lower preference votes) from across the spectrum. So while it ends up being much more proportional than FPTP, it still can leave the extremes potentially underrepresented compared to their first preference % totals.

[FlashingBlade]

Which is why we need PR.

The Tories only ever govern on 35-40% of the vote and have no real right-wing opponents to split their vote. Meanwhile, more progressive parties get typically 50-60% of the vote but it's split between 3/4 parties (depending which part of UK) and end up out of power for the majority of the time.

Never happen, UK is too divided and at loggerheads with itself...Left  v Right, North V South, Region V Region, City v City.....there is no unity in the UK..everyone hates each other who isn't ´them´...you need commonality for PR to work...politicians must work together and means getting into bed with ´the enemy´....UK is too ¨polarised for PR.

I live in Netherlands who have  a similar PR set up ( with insane number of parties) ...took them nearly a year to form a government after elections.. doing deals with different parties/views  form a Government plan ( which they are obliged to stick too)....Im not that knowledgeable enough to know details , but for all its faults ( and it has them) the NL isn't a basket case like UK so it sorta works

[Nobby Reserve]

But I think the right is operating to the current FPTP model and would react to PR with a new farther right party or parties.  The likes of UKIP - single policy populist issue parties - would become permanent parts of the landscape.

Those parties should take more of the electorate from the Tories than the other parties but as Brexit showed they don't necessarily operate along traditional party politics lines.  Meloni's speech about raging war on consumerism (left appealing) and woke (right appealing) would suck in voters from the whole spectrum but fundamentally she heads up a neo-Nazi party.  The more those extreme right parties are given air-time the more chance they have of bringing people over to their side, Frottage is a fine example of it.

I think PR may deny the Tories the opportunity to come back and finish what they've started but equally it may bring them back to power with a supercharged right wing agenda due to their coalition partners.

Perhaps, but IMO unlikely.

The right-wing (especially the bigots) love to portray themselves as 'the silent majority' but they're not a majority at all.

I have a long-held dream of a truly radical and reforming leftish government, which would have to be - under the current system - a left-leaning Labour one. But PR would destroy that. However, the last 12 years of hard-right Tory government (ironically, the Bozo govt was the least economically hard-right) has given me the belief that we cannot ever risk such a destructive, hard-right agenda again. And I absolutely believe that PR massively diminishes that prospect.

[Kenny's Jacket]

A smart meter will help you monitor your use better, but it won't save you energy directly. Also the energy company gets your meter readings all the time, so they don't have to estimate your use if you don't send them regular readings. If your problem is that they overcharge, or undercharge you and you then struggle with payments, it will help.

With a smart meter, you can look at the display (which you can put somewhere convenient) and see what you are using at any time. So if you've spend half an hour hoovering, you can immediatly see what that used. That might help if you have to convince others in your family to switch things off etc.

Thanks for that mate, really helpful

[Libertine]

Never happen, UK is too divided and at loggerheads with itself...Left  v Right, North V South, Region V Region, City v City.....there is no unity in the UK..everyone hates each other who isn't ´them´...you need commonality for PR to work...politicians must work together and means getting into bed with ´the enemy´....UK is too ¨polarised for PR.

I live in Netherlands who have  a similar PR set up ( with insane number of parties) ...took them nearly a year to form a government after elections.. doing deals with different parties/views  form a Government plan ( which they are obliged to stick too)....Im not that knowledgeable enough to know details , but for all its faults ( and it has them) the NL isn't a basket case like UK so it sorta works

The UK and NL are good examples of the two extremes in voting systems.

NL system is very fair and every vote has equal weight, but ends up a bit of a mess like you say. UK system is very unfair and most votes are pointless, but until recent years it was relatively effective in a broad sense.

I don't think either works particularly well and there are of course many options in between that provide a better balance.

[FlashingBlade]

Football is more important 

True...when it gets too much my default is " As long as Liverpool win the league"

[CheshireDave]

      

Thanks for that mate, really helpful

Do you have any idea what is using so much electricity in your home? I ask because I live in a semi detached 3 bed house and use about 1/7th of the electricity you are using (assuming we are similar tariffs). Are you using the washing machine and tumble drier all the time? I think they use quite a bit of electricity.

Anyway sorry for derailing the thread somewhat. There is probably a better thread for these conversations. But there surely much be some things you can do to reduce the amount of electricity your household is using.

[FlashingBlade]

The UK and NL are good examples of the two extremes in voting systems.

NL system is very fair and every vote has equal weight, but ends up a bit of a mess like you say. UK system is very unfair and most votes are pointless, but until recent years it was relatively effective in a broad sense.

I don't think either works particularly well and there are of course many options in between that provide a better balance.

Its the 'polder' view here ..everyone has a say....can be a fuckign pain...but the Dutch have a better take on Society than I think UK....not prefect but better than UK.....standard of living across economic levels here much better than UK IMO..and these fuckers invented the free market!!

[Statto Red]

40% of mortgage products taken off the market since the mini budget last Friday, so 1,621 products taken off the market leaving only 2,340 products left on sale.

[cornishscouser92]

Lizz Truss' husband is an economist...

[Gerry Attrick]

Truss trying to explain away economic decisions is like an A-Level physics student having to do in depth speeches on the inner workings of CERN.

[Yorkykopite]

So it won't ever happen then. 

What's interesting though is that Truss will not give any definition, or even indication, of what "consent" might mean. It could mean a referendum, or a council decision, but that would probably kill any chance of fracking anywhere since practically everyone who wants fracking wants it somewhere else. But by "consent" Truss almost certainly means the consent of a local, unelected quango of businessmen.

[Barneylfc∗]

      
Do you have any idea what is using so much electricity in your home? I ask because I live in a semi detached 3 bed house and use about 1/7th of the electricity you are using (assuming we are similar tariffs). Are you using the washing machine and tumble drier all the time? I think they use quite a bit of electricity.

Anyway sorry for derailing the thread somewhat. There is probably a better thread for these conversations. But there surely much be some things you can do to reduce the amount of electricity your household is using.

I'd be surprised if I used £600 electric in a year never mind £600 a month 

[Libertine]

Its the 'polder' view here ..everyone has a say....can be a fuckign pain...but the Dutch have a better take on Society than I think UK....not prefect but better than UK.....standard of living across economic levels here much better than UK IMO..and these fuckers invented the free market!!

Oh I agree. Definitely a more well rounded and fair society. Although weirdly I read somewhere that while it has one of the lowest levels of income inequality in the world, it has the highest level of wealth inequality, probably driven by those 400 uninterrupted years of capitalism.

Thought this was an interesting article yesterday on the government's procrastination and inability to make quick decisions. Wonder how much the consensus model feeds into that.
https://www.dutchnews.nl/features/2022/09/soaring-energy-prices-exposed-the-governments-low-watt-crisis-management/

[Yorkykopite]

Truss trying to explain away economic decisions is like an A-Level physics student having to do in depth speeches on the inner workings of CERN.

It's much worse. It's like a hamster having to do it. 

[Statto Red]

Martin Lewis on that £2,500 energy cap

The UK government announced it would be placing a £2,500 cap on energy bills, but Mr Lewis explained that there is no such cap.

"What there is, is a cap on the standing charges you pay and the unit rate, how much you pay for each unit of gas and electricity you use, that is what is capped," he said

He said the £2,500 figure is what someone who uses a "typical" amount of energy would pay on that cap.

"If you use more, you will pay more," he said.

[Jiminy Cricket]

But I think the right is operating to the current FPTP model and would react to PR with a new farther right party or parties.  The likes of UKIP - single policy populist issue parties - would become permanent parts of the landscape.

Those parties should take more of the electorate from the Tories than the other parties but as Brexit showed they don't necessarily operate along traditional party politics lines.  Meloni's speech about raging war on consumerism (left appealing) and woke (right appealing) would suck in voters from the whole spectrum but fundamentally she heads up a neo-Nazi party.  The more those extreme right parties are given air-time the more chance they have of bringing people over to their side, Frottage is a fine example of it.

I think PR may deny the Tories the opportunity to come back and finish what they've started but equally it may bring them back to power with a supercharged right wing agenda due to their coalition partners.

That's fine and dandy. But how do you then explain the present Tory Party under FPTP?

PR might make it more difficult, though it is no guarantee against another extreme Tory Government. But this is not the point; PR is more democratic and the right thing to do. That's why we should make the change. But yes, for the UK, I also believe it will make extreme governments (either end) less likely. Whatever the shortcomings of the UK and and its electorate, it is not Italy. The vast majority of countries which might be sensibly compared with the UK have PR and are not right wing havens. Italy probably would have problems no matter what type of voting system it has in place.

[FlashingBlade]

Oh I agree. Definitely a more well rounded and fair society. Although weirdly I read somewhere that while it has one of the lowest levels of income inequality in the world, it has the highest level of wealth inequality, probably driven by those 400 uninterrupted years of capitalism.

Thought this was an interesting article yesterday on the government's procrastination and inability to make quick decisions. Wonder how much the consensus model feeds into that.
https://www.dutchnews.nl/features/2022/09/soaring-energy-prices-exposed-the-governments-low-watt-crisis-management/

That's the problem here , checking in with everyone first.., was typified in slow Vaccine roll out however, when they done it it was spot on...they're slow cos they check everything first...

not perfect but not UK bad either.

oh btw that UK energy cap....do you think most of UK realise they are paying for it eventually

[Circa1892]

But by "consent" Truss almost certainly means the consent of a local, unelected quango of businessmen.

That's part of what these investment areas are about...

An alternative is the Metro Mayors, or the mayors they're looking to bring in in regions. Although apart from the dickhead in Teeside and the guy in the West Midlands there's not many Tory Mayors...

[west_london_red]

Truss trying to explain away economic decisions is like an A-Level physics student having to do in depth speeches on the inner workings of CERN.

This makes no sense to me, she has a degree in PPE, so she should have some grasp of what’s going on and why or is the PPE syllabus weighted more towards the PP and less towards the E?

[Kenny's Jacket]

      
Do you have any idea what is using so much electricity in your home? I ask because I live in a semi detached 3 bed house and use about 1/7th of the electricity you are using (assuming we are similar tariffs). Are you using the washing machine and tumble drier all the time? I think they use quite a bit of electricity.

Anyway sorry for derailing the thread somewhat. There is probably a better thread for these conversations. But there surely much be some things you can do to reduce the amount of electricity your household is using.

It might be the equipment I have relating to my disability, it needs to be constantly plugged in. The washing machine gets a good hammering. Ive banned the dryer till November.   

[Schmarn]

This makes no sense to me, she has a degree in PPE, so she should have some grasp of what’s going on and why or is the PPE syllabus weighted more towards the PP and less towards the E?

PPE is what you study at Oxford if you want to be a Tory minister. Cambridge has an equivalent (it used to be called SPS back in my day). I can attest to the fact that there is a world of difference between academic intelligence and practical intelligence. Plenty of bright people there who couldn't tie their own shoelaces many of whom participate actively in student politics.  The intelligent, savvy and wise students typically run a mile from student politics.  Once you add unbridled ambition to the equation you get people like Truss, grossly overpromoted and utterly unsuited for the job..

[Ray K]

Dan Snow  @thehistoryguy
That was the worst provincial campaign of any of our leaders since autumn 1216 when King John marched about dealing with a rebellion & two invasions, caught dysentery in Norfolk, lost the Crown Jewels in The Wash and died in Nottinghamshire

 

[Rhi]

Never happen, UK is too divided and at loggerheads with itself...Left  v Right, North V South, Region V Region, City v City.....there is no unity in the UK..everyone hates each other who isn't ´them´...you need commonality for PR to work...politicians must work together and means getting into bed with ´the enemy´....UK is too ¨polarised for PR.

PR in some form already works within the UK in two of its devolved governments in Wales and Scotland. In Wales, a majority has never been returned and parties work together to make things happen. Is it perfect? No. Do adults act like adults to govern a country as they were elected to do? Mostly yes.

If PR can’t work in the UK, then it’s on England, predominantly. Although I don’t know enough about NI’s issues with forming a government to know whether PR or other mad shit was the reason for that. Either way, it’s not accurate to say PR can’t work in the UK. It works now in two parts of the UK.

[Libertine]

Superb.


@AngelaRayner
Liz Truss has finally broken her long painful silence with a series of short painful silences.

[Red-Soldier]

So it won't ever happen then.  The benefits locally are marginal - maybe a few jobs but most will be multinationals bringing their existing expertise in - but the costs are very localised.  No fairly collected sample of local opinions would ever reach the bar of "local consent".

An utterly pointless distraction.

It will.  There are rumours that they will designate sites as important national infrastructure projects - bypassing consent.

[Felch Aid]

The Daily Fail were frothing at the shock and awe budget leaks last week. Now that has failed beyond comprehension what exactly has she got left politically to shift opinions?

The whole energy debacle is infuriating. Martin Lewis warned of price hikes 4 months before the invasion of Ukraine. Yes it's exacerbated it but it's not the main cause. It's not a cap of 2500 and I some cases it's more than double last year.

Blame culture at the heart of the Tory propaganda but it has no traction.

Its a perfect storm on the housing market fuelled by the previous chancellor with 2 year deals coming to an end and no cheap credit available. Oh and did we mention a recession?

It's not 2008 but there's a feeling of harder times around the corner.

[Qston]

Lizz Truss' husband is an economist...

She doesn`t strike me as the sort to take advice.

[Red-Soldier]

It might be the equipment I have relating to my disability, it needs to be constantly plugged in. The washing machine gets a good hammering. Ive banned the dryer till November.

People with (some) disabilities use a far higher proportion of energy, compared to people without.

Definitely get a smart meter installed to help you monitor it.  Once installed you can then set it to daily and hourly readings: giving your provider a much more accurate picture of your energy usage.

[KillieRed]

Perhaps, but IMO unlikely.

The right-wing (especially the bigots) love to portray themselves as 'the silent majority' but they're not a majority at all.

I have a long-held dream of a truly radical and reforming leftish government, which would have to be - under the current system - a left-leaning Labour one. But PR would destroy that. However, the last 12 years of hard-right Tory government (ironically, the Bozo govt was the least economically hard-right) has given me the belief that we cannot ever risk such a destructive, hard-right agenda again. And I absolutely believe that PR massively diminishes that prospect.

I tend to believe that most people crave the middle. To not be extreme. It is, after all what we are taught as small children. Some people are fiscally conservative or socially, others similarly progressive. Not many people are at the extremes. Most people just want a quiet life, to work, raise their families & not be frightened. It is, for example, in my opinion why the good Friday agreement came about: normal people were fed up of the divisive nature of daily life & being held to randsom by the gangsters masquerading as political groups on either side. In the 21st century the minority should not be able to rule majority with self-serving, extremist views & policies. I believe PR from refs us to make accommodations to others.

[Indomitable_Carp]

PR in some form already works within the UK in two of its devolved governments in Wales and Scotland. In Wales, a majority has never been returned and parties work together to make things happen. Is it perfect? No. Do adults act like adults to govern a country as they were elected to do? Mostly yes.

If PR can’t work in the UK, then it’s on England, predominantly. Although I don’t know enough about NI’s issues with forming a government to know whether PR or other mad shit was the reason for that. Either way, it’s not accurate to say PR can’t work in the UK. It works now in two parts of the UK.

This is eaxctly right.

The reason UK politics is so adversarial is because FPTP is designed to be. It was designed for a period when there was two major parties that dominated all elections and there was always one winner. That is simply no longer the case. We have never had a situation up until recent years where millions of peoples votes are simply wasted on other parties. PR is fairer and more reflective of this countries modern day politics. Parties will work together because they´ll have to work together - they won´t have an option. The devolved assemblies show that.

However we should also be be looking at it as an oppurtunity for a complete political reset. It will be different sure. But if the last 12 years have shown us anything, it is that our traditional politics is utterly broken. PR is not perfect. No system is. But it would be a much needed chance to do things differently. A chance to refresh. A chance to address some of our other constitutional flaws.

I find it baffling that any left-leaning people who have witnessed the last 12 years could think that continuing the FPTP is a good a idea.

[Red-Soldier]

This is eaxctly right.

The reason UK politics is so adversarial is because FPTP is designed to be. It was designed for a period when there was two major parties that dominated all elections and there was always one winner. That is simply no longer the case. We have never had a situation up until recent years where millions of peoples votes are simply wasted on other parties. PR is fairer and more reflective of this countries modern day politics. Parties will work together because they´ll have to work together - they won´t have an option. The devolved assemblies show that.

However we should also be be looking at it as an oppurtunity for a complete political reset. It will be different sure. But if the last 12 years have shown us anything, it is that our traditional politics is utterly broken. PR is not perfect. No system is. But it would be a much needed chance to do things differently. A chance to refresh. A chance to address some of our other constitutional flaws.

I find it baffling that any left-leaning people who have witnessed the last 12 years could think that continuing the FPTP is a good a idea.

Exactly.

I believe there are only two advanced 'democracies' that use FPTP; you can guess which two. 

[Red Beret]

Truss trying to explain away economic decisions is like an A-Level physics student having to do in depth speeches on the inner workings of CERN.

That's probably insulting to an A Level student 

If you're passionate about a certain subject, you can probably educate yourself to a very good level and go into a fair amount of detail. Just not deliver a presentation to a room of true experts on the subject.

Truss is the kid trying to explain a book to class based on what she read off the back cover cause she was too lazy to actually read it.

[redbyrdz]

Truss is the kid trying to explain a book to class based on what she read off the back cover someone told her about it cause she was too lazy to actually read it.

[Mahern]

She doesn`t strike me as the sort to take advice.

Nor does he judging by what he's ended up with.

[reddebs]

Ive just had my bill, its going to be £600 a month electric only. There was no reduction written on my bill.

How do this government help show on the bill?

It's not come in yet but I've no idea how each supplier will show it.

I'm with Scottish power for my electric and do everything online with monthly meter readings, bills and payments. 

They've said they'll take my normal £102 monthly payment then 3 days later refund the £66 but that if a payment fails they'll refund the full balance of the government help.

For anyone not bothered about their credit rating that can afford the new monthly payments but wanted a cash injection for Xmas just miss a payment and you'll get the £400 up front 🤷