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Author Topic: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street  (Read 497523 times)

Online west_london_red

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13960 on: September 23, 2022, 01:09:42 pm »
Yeah, I was thinking that it might help the financial services sector (the part not destroyed by brexit). So maybe there is lobbying interest from that side?

I don’t think it’s intentional, they aren’t deliberately crashing the pound it’s just an outcome of other decisions they are making and the poor state of the economy.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13961 on: September 23, 2022, 01:09:45 pm »
With the suffering to come I hope red wallers suffer the most.

To be fair they voted for Boris, and I suspect a lot would want Boris back right now.

Offline Wabaloolah

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13962 on: September 23, 2022, 01:12:47 pm »
Do you think she will re-introduce the 45% tax bracket?
100% she will
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Offline Red Berry

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13963 on: September 23, 2022, 01:15:06 pm »
I don’t think it’s intentional, they aren’t deliberately crashing the pound it’s just an outcome of other decisions they are making and the poor state of the economy.

I think it's virtually impossible for this government to do anything deliberately.  They couldn't hit a barn door with a deliberate policy. They'd sky it like a Charlie Adam penalty.

They're a reactive government, incapable of seizing the initiative on anything.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13964 on: September 23, 2022, 01:16:24 pm »
It's just an assault on everything with no mandate.

At this stage I'd welcome Johnson back with open arms... the days of May and Cameron feel like those sunlit uplands we were promised. Absolute fucking disaster.
From a personal perspective I'm delighted that IR35 is going as it will allow me to keep more money from my contracts.  Will it mean i vote for the Tories if Labour say they will bring it back in?  Not a chance but some probably will feel different
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13965 on: September 23, 2022, 01:16:25 pm »
Maybe I am just looking in the wrong places, but at least so far most people have seen this budget for what it is - daylight robbery
I suggest you avoid the Daily Mail comments section  :o

A colleague was reeling through the top comments whilst we waited for the serial late attenders to join a meeting.  People celebrating the UC changes was the top comment but there did seem to be a few that recognised the disproportionate amount of money going to those that don't need it.  Maybe a dawning realisation for most people that read the Daily Mail that they're part of the "have nots" and that the "haves" couldn't give a monkeys about them.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13966 on: September 23, 2022, 01:17:39 pm »
Does anyone know how much removing the 45% tax bracket will cost?

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13967 on: September 23, 2022, 01:18:40 pm »
Does anyone know how much removing the 45% tax bracket will cost?
£2bn is the figure being generally quoted.  Buttons compared to the £12bn of corporation tax cuts.  ;)

Offline spen71

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13968 on: September 23, 2022, 01:20:17 pm »
This country is becoming more and more like the states everyday.    The haves and have nots

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13969 on: September 23, 2022, 01:21:16 pm »
£2bn is the figure being generally quoted.  Buttons compared to the £12bn of corporation tax cuts.  ;)

Yeah, about 600,000 people pay it, so not even the top 10%, it’s about the top 1.5% of adults.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13970 on: September 23, 2022, 01:22:20 pm »
£2bn is the figure being generally quoted.  Buttons compared to the £12bn of corporation tax cuts.  ;)
I atleast understand the corporation tax cuts (well the cancellation of the rise anyway).

I get that with times really hard for businesses, you wouldn’t want to burden them with greater taxes … but you know, something might have been given to the average Joe. The average Joe got nothing

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13971 on: September 23, 2022, 01:22:24 pm »
This country is becoming more and more like the states everyday.    The haves and have nots

States? I was thinking more Russia, it’s basically legalised kleptocracy.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13972 on: September 23, 2022, 01:23:29 pm »
I can see this to be true. The sad bit is people will believe it's all labours fault too.

'Don't vote Labour remember the 2020s' will be the attack line for decades. They still go on about the 70s.

The media landscape even harder now for Labour with GB News, Talk and all the right wing grifters all over social media. In addition to the ever more feral newspapers.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 01:26:16 pm by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13973 on: September 23, 2022, 01:24:13 pm »
This country is becoming more and more like the states everyday.    The haves and have nots

I think it was that data guy from the FT the other day that described the US and UK as poor countries with some rich people in them.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13974 on: September 23, 2022, 01:24:27 pm »
I atleast understand the corporation tax cuts (well the cancellation of the rise anyway).

I get that with times really hard for businesses, you wouldn’t want to burden them with greater taxes … but you know, something might have been given to the average Joe. The average Joe got nothing
1p off basic rate of income tax at a cost of £5bn.  It feels like a token gesture in the face of everything going on but I'm sure the Tories will make great political capital out of it.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13975 on: September 23, 2022, 01:24:38 pm »
And yet, people will just suck it up.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13976 on: September 23, 2022, 01:25:24 pm »
Quote
Kwarteng: "For too long in this country we've indulged in a fight over redistribution."

Haha. I'd call it more a one-sided rout than a fight.

British politics: previously far too focused on helping the poor and ensuring a fairer distribution of wealth.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13977 on: September 23, 2022, 01:28:12 pm »
Haha. I'd call it more a one-sided rout than a fight.

British politics: previously far too focused on helping the poor and ensuring a fairer distribution of wealth.

Funny how the Tories literally won the last election on the platform of levelling up.

They have no mandate for any of this
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Offline Circa1892

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13978 on: September 23, 2022, 01:28:22 pm »
With the suffering to come I hope red wallers suffer the most.

Is exactly the game the Tories have always played.

Those areas already suffer the most. They have done for decades. Yes they were hoodwinked, but they hardly looked for change out of selfishness and to keep the massive wealth that flows through places like Bolsover and Darlington.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13979 on: September 23, 2022, 01:31:09 pm »
Quote
Kwarteng: "For too long in this country we've indulged in a fight over redistribution."
Haha. I'd call it more a one-sided rout than a fight.

British politics: previously far too focused on helping the poor and ensuring a fairer distribution of wealth.
That's a wild quote!  By developed world standards we have very poor wealth redistribution.

It suggests he's also not a very good economist as higher inequality levels mean less broader spending power and inevitable recessions.  The greater levels of income enjoyed by the few doesn't come close to making up the difference as a greater proportion of the money is simply removed from the economy.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13980 on: September 23, 2022, 01:42:24 pm »
With the suffering to come I hope red wallers suffer the most.

Not this shite again.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13981 on: September 23, 2022, 01:43:31 pm »
To be honest if you really wanted to clean up some of the weirdness on the marginal tax rates at the top of the income bands, you would get rid of the Personal allowance taper but have the additional rate kick in far lower down the earnings scale

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13982 on: September 23, 2022, 01:44:53 pm »
I suggest you avoid the Daily Mail comments section  :o

A colleague was reeling through the top comments whilst we waited for the serial late attenders to join a meeting.  People celebrating the UC changes was the top comment but there did seem to be a few that recognised the disproportionate amount of money going to those that don't need it.  Maybe a dawning realisation for most people that read the Daily Mail that they're part of the "have nots" and that the "haves" couldn't give a monkeys about them.
Excellent point that needs to be hammered.
Forget all the low taxes are nothing to be ashamed of. they actually mean low taxes for the very rich, low taxes will mean you have to pay through the pocket for decades. they will face decimated council services, schools hammered yet some will go out and argue low taxes are needed for growth as if they knew what they were talking about.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13983 on: September 23, 2022, 01:45:22 pm »
Haha. I'd call it more a one-sided rout than a fight.

British politics: previously far too focused on helping the poor and ensuring a fairer distribution of wealth.
To be fair to him they’ve succeeded in redistribution …

Just the wrong way round…
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13984 on: September 23, 2022, 01:48:11 pm »
I atleast understand the corporation tax cuts (well the cancellation of the rise anyway).

I get that with times really hard for businesses, you wouldn’t want to burden them with greater taxes … but you know, something might have been given to the average Joe. The average Joe got nothing

Its a tax on profits though. If a business is struggling it won't pay it anyway.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13985 on: September 23, 2022, 01:49:39 pm »
To be honest if you really wanted to clean up some of the weirdness on the marginal tax rates at the top of the income bands, you would get rid of the Personal allowance taper but have the additional rate kick in far lower down the earnings scale

It makes zero sense financially or politically. They have targeted the cuts at such a small % of the population even the vast majority of Tory voters won’t benefit by much compared to the top 1-2%, so I can imagine there will be a lot of disgruntled Tory’s today which is probably a small bonus I guess.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13986 on: September 23, 2022, 01:53:45 pm »
Its a tax on profits though. If a business is struggling it won't pay it anyway.
True, but I can still see where it’s coming from… even if I wouldn’t do it…

The rest? Nuts.

And quietly tucked away is proposed legislation to force all trade unions to put any pay offer to a vote of its members. This will only lengthen industrial disputes

Just crap government in every way
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13987 on: September 23, 2022, 01:58:37 pm »
Yeah, about 600,000 people pay it, so not even the top 10%, it’s about the top 1.5% of adults.

You will get people sandbagging income into next year now

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13988 on: September 23, 2022, 01:59:24 pm »
To be honest if you really wanted to clean up some of the weirdness on the marginal tax rates at the top of the income bands, you would get rid of the Personal allowance taper but have the additional rate kick in far lower down the earnings scale
That 60% tax rate is a bit of a piss take, but abolishing it would save someone earning 125k exactly the same as someone earning 10 times as much. It benefits neither the ultra rich or the poor to get rid of it so there's no real political group who care about it.

Scrapping the 45% band is much better for the ultra rich than the only slightly rich, so much better for this band of Tories.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13989 on: September 23, 2022, 02:07:44 pm »
That 60% tax rate is a bit of a piss take, but abolishing it would save someone earning 125k exactly the same as someone earning 10 times as much. It benefits neither the ultra rich or the poor to get rid of it so there's no real political group who care about it.

Scrapping the 45% band is much better for the ultra rich than the only slightly rich, so much better for this band of Tories.

Totally agree there is no obvious political group lobbying for it, but it just seems a really odd anomaly, particularly if you are lucky enough to earn that amount but are unlucky enough to be paying student finance off.

I was actually shocked that even this group of Tory crazies felt they could get rid of the additional rate entirely in this environment where public finances look bloody grim.

The same people will be pleading poverty when public sector strikes kick off in earnest in the autumn.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13990 on: September 23, 2022, 02:17:38 pm »
Its a tax on profits though. If a business is struggling it won't pay it anyway.

It is the definition of struggling - so the 25% rate begins to kick in from taxable profits (so a business can be loss making due to non taxable expenditure such as depreciation - big plant and machinery can do this quite easily) of £50,001 and marginal relief ends when profits are over £250k which would hit them quite hard.

A return to the previous marginal split of (if memory serves) £350,000 and £1.5m would be better I think.

Either way, the ones who benefit most are your multi million pounders - if you've made a £120m profit (which Sainsburys did in 2020 for example) then you have received 6% saving on that (the £250k is trivial so ignoring it for the calc) which is £7.2m of tax saved.

That isn't getting reinvested I can tell you that much. Most likely it will get paid to shareholders, directors etc by various means and as someone said on here recently they can only spend so much so most will be in savings or investments etc.

If they were to insist on lowering taxes then I think they should have dropped the small profits rate to 17% (in line with thier original plans before they moved to the 25% idea) and then had the large profits rate be 23% as that would then take pressure of businesses at the bottom end but still get a fair whack from bigger ones.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13991 on: September 23, 2022, 02:48:07 pm »
Nothing sums up a turkey voting for christmas more than the majority of the British Public.
Thank Fowler we're not getting Caulker

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13992 on: September 23, 2022, 02:56:08 pm »
Totally agree there is no obvious political group lobbying for it, but it just seems a really odd anomaly, particularly if you are lucky enough to earn that amount but are unlucky enough to be paying student finance off.

I was actually shocked that even this group of Tory crazies felt they could get rid of the additional rate entirely in this environment where public finances look bloody grim.

The same people will be pleading poverty when public sector strikes kick off in earnest in the autumn.
I think a lot of other means tested stuff kicks in at 100k as well. Tax free childcare, 30 free hours etc, so it's a bit of a cliff edge. I think it was initially brought in as a temporary measure to deal with one crisis or another and just no one really cares enough to get rid of it.

I'm absolutely astounded though that in this environment they've gone after banker's bonuses, fois gras and fur, and tax cuts for ultra high earners. Absolute political insanity and the complete opposite of the levelling up agenda they sold in 2019.

I'm not even convinced they make it to the next election.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13993 on: September 23, 2022, 03:09:34 pm »
Just fast forwarding 2 years when they lose the election:

"Boooo labour increasing taxes booooooo".

It's part of their game, they are purposely leaving labour/libs a gigantic mess. 
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13994 on: September 23, 2022, 03:15:14 pm »
Nothing sums up a turkey voting for christmas more than the majority of the British Public.

Pedant's corner mate, the majority of the British public vote for parties that are not the Tories. 
Believer

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13995 on: September 23, 2022, 03:17:27 pm »
Just fast forwarding 2 years when they lose the election:

"Boooo labour increasing taxes booooooo".

It's part of their game, they are purposely leaving labour/libs a gigantic mess.

Yes they will play that card withoit doubt.

They might still win the GE then this plan has failed but joe public has 5 more years of this sh*t rinse & repeat.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13996 on: September 23, 2022, 03:17:45 pm »
It's frustrating that people vote for left leaning parties like the Lib Dems and the Greens, knowing that essentially it's a vote for the Tories.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13997 on: September 23, 2022, 03:22:36 pm »
From a personal perspective I'm delighted that IR35 is going as it will allow me to keep more money from my contracts.  Will it mean i vote for the Tories if Labour say they will bring it back in?  Not a chance but some probably will feel different


That's made me more livid than the scrapping of the 45% band.

IR35 is vital. Before it, de facto employees were able to be 'employed' by companies on a self-employed basis, allowing companies to pay no NI and save on other costs, and the self-employed 'employee' to pay less NI and lower their tax bill through writing off 'expenses'

We need to be getting more hardline on tax and the scum who dodge it, but this corrupt shower of shite are going the opposite direction.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13998 on: September 23, 2022, 03:23:45 pm »
Andrew Griffiths, Chief Secretary to the Treasury saying explicitly on BBC interview that it's the Government's business to set out a plan for the economy but that the Government has no responsibility to forecast the result of the plan.

We're in the loony bin.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline RainbowFlick

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #13999 on: September 23, 2022, 03:24:48 pm »
bleek, bleek future.
YNWA.