Author Topic: Roberto Firmino  (Read 1993466 times)

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15000 on: November 18, 2022, 01:03:52 pm »
Seven players out of a squad of 22/23? :D

Its all a bit daft now. You're talking like we're struggling financially, that we can't afford to have certain players on big money, that there's this major drop off as soon as someone hits 30. If money is as tight as you seem to think, it surely makes more sense to extend players who are still contributing rather than having to pay more for a younger replacement?

Thats only at that age, will be more in the 30 bracket. Its more the fact that we have so many key players at that age and its not like we are lacking experience in the front line even without them having to be older.

In terms of the money, again we have spoken about how a lot of our money has been invested in wages when questions around where the money has gone on the back of our success. So if thats the case, we have to look at whether the money is being spent wisely and whether its sustainable in terms of the rebuild (which is required) to keep players on that don't have a long term future.

In terms of him as a player, his numbers attacking wise have been good but his pressing hasnt. Considering our defensive numbers are absolutely shocking, not being able to press well is a big deal.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15001 on: November 18, 2022, 01:20:00 pm »
A year extension isn’t massively costly but 2 or 3 years at 180,000 per week adds up!

How much per week would it cost us to bring in a player of Bobbys ability and who are we going to get that is prepared to play the role that Bobby has? Once Jota and Diaz are fit, Bobby is looking at more time on the bench than on the pitch.
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Offline JackWard33

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15002 on: November 18, 2022, 02:00:17 pm »
How much per week would it cost us to bring in a player of Bobbys ability and who are we going to get that is prepared to play the role that Bobby has? Once Jota and Diaz are fit, Bobby is looking at more time on the bench than on the pitch.

So why sign him then, we wouldn’t sign him if he was on the open market - far better to develop a young player with his minutes over the next 2 years
Extending would be a decision that makes us older generally and commits more of our wage bill to older players
Every decision we should make now should be building the next team that can win titles not hanging on to the last one that did

Offline Simplexity

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15003 on: November 18, 2022, 02:05:41 pm »
Seven players out of a squad of 22/23? :D

Its all a bit daft now. You're talking like we're struggling financially, that we can't afford to have certain players on big money, that there's this major drop off as soon as someone hits 30. If money is as tight as you seem to think, it surely makes more sense to extend players who are still contributing rather than having to pay more for a younger replacement?

Using this logic we will never get rid of anyone ever untill they decide to retire.

You are commiting a large amount of money to a rapidly depreciating asset, far better to spend more money on a asset that is appreciating in value, they will probably command less wages as well.



Offline El Lobo

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15004 on: November 18, 2022, 02:13:41 pm »
So why sign him then, we wouldn’t sign him if he was on the open market - far better to develop a young player with his minutes over the next 2 years
Extending would be a decision that makes us older generally and commits more of our wage bill to older players
Every decision we should make now should be building the next team that can win titles not hanging on to the last one that did

A little disengenous.

Since 16/17 we've signed 29 first team players (from what I can see) and 5 of them were 27 or over. And three of them were Manninger, Adrian and Andy Lonergan. So practically, since Klopp was hired the only two first team players we've signed over 27 were Thiago and Klavan. That suggests that its very rare that we'd sign someone of that age, so are you suggesting that we just dont extend contracts of anyone over 27? I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have signed a 30 year old Van Dijk on the open market, or a 30 year old Mo Salah, or a 29 year old Alisson.

Using this logic we will never get rid of anyone ever untill they decide to retire.

You are commiting a large amount of money to a rapidly depreciating asset, far better to spend more money on a asset that is appreciating in value, they will probably command less wages as well.

Well no, using this logic we'd get rid of quite a few people before they retire. Like for example....Oxlade Chamberlain and Naby Keita, or Sadio Mane, or Gini Wijnaldum. The 'asset' is having his best season for ages btw.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 02:15:34 pm by El Lobo »
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15005 on: November 18, 2022, 02:15:40 pm »
I don’t know why we do renewals. When we sign somebody we should just give a career long contract because players can stay here for as long as they want and we’ll be happy with that. Nothing against Firmino but this is yet more evidence of us having the date on the computers set to 18/05/2018. Not only is this a poor use of resources moving forwards, it’ll be seen as reason to not touch the attack for another 2 years kicking another can down the road and store up another problem. It’s not what smart teams do.

Offline Simplexity

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15006 on: November 18, 2022, 02:39:21 pm »
The 'asset' is having his best season for ages btw.

You are not paying him based on what he is doing this season. You are paying him for what you think he will bring for the next 2-3 seasons. Frankly it is unlikely that he will be good enough at the top level for that long.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15007 on: November 18, 2022, 02:40:50 pm »
A little disengenous.

Since 16/17 we've signed 29 first team players (from what I can see) and 5 of them were 27 or over. And three of them were Manninger, Adrian and Andy Lonergan. So practically, since Klopp was hired the only two first team players we've signed over 27 were Thiago and Klavan. That suggests that its very rare that we'd sign someone of that age, so are you suggesting that we just dont extend contracts of anyone over 27? I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have signed a 30 year old Van Dijk on the open market, or a 30 year old Mo Salah, or a 29 year old Alisson.

Well no, using this logic we'd get rid of quite a few people before they retire. Like for example....Oxlade Chamberlain and Naby Keita, or Sadio Mane, or Gini Wijnaldum. The 'asset' is having his best season for ages btw.

I’m not into hard and fast rules - but in general if we’re trying to beat teams with bigger budgets then extending players into their 30s is something we should only be doing rarely
Every case is different obv as footballers are individual but it’s hard to make a case for 2 more years of Firmino beyond sentimentality or to be kinder attachment to what he’s achieved

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15008 on: November 18, 2022, 02:49:17 pm »
You are not paying him based on what he is doing this season. You are paying him for what you think he will bring for the next 2-3 seasons. Frankly it is unlikely that he will be good enough at the top level for that long.

Well then there's not much debate to be had if you think that :)
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15009 on: November 18, 2022, 03:29:53 pm »
This conversation is going around in circles.

We have Nunez and Mo, whom I would think a certain starter. Then Diaz on the left.  With Jota and Firmino as backups.

The discussion is Firmino should go and get someone younger in.

My question is, what striker are we going to get for how much money + wages to be 5th choice?

Bobby only costs us his wages. His transfer fee has been amortized out and well paid for with the trophies he's helped bring.

So. for those penny pinchers, take Bobby's salary and go find a young 5th choice striker and pay that transfer fee + wages.

Or do we have that in Ben Doak or Fabio Carvalho and Jurgen has already future planned for it.

Either we are a club of supporters or become a club of customers.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15010 on: November 18, 2022, 03:32:30 pm »
I’m not into hard and fast rules - but in general if we’re trying to beat teams with bigger budgets then extending players into their 30s is something we should only be doing rarely
Every case is different obv as footballers are individual but it’s hard to make a case for 2 more years of Firmino beyond sentimentality or to be kinder attachment to what he’s achieved

I dont really get the issue to be honest.

Its guesswork that it becomes a problem. In two and a half years he'll be 33, Mo will be 32, Diogo will be 28, Diaz will be 28, Nunez will be 25, Carvalho 22, Gordon and Cannonier 20, Doak 19 etc. Considering how he plays, there's a good chance that in two and a half years he'll still be a very good footballer. If in two years our first choice XI is Alisson, Trent, Matip, VVD, Robbo, Fab, Hendo, Thiago, Diaz, Firmino, Salah then thats a problem but...its extremely unlikely, and this is just extending the contract of someone who is predominantly still a very good footballer and secondly a legend and good to have around the place whilst bringing through the next phase of the team.

People are extrapolating the midfield problems into the rest of the team, as if our problem is all over the park with older players. In goal, in defence and in attack we've done an excellent job with our succession planning. Three years ago our attack was Salah, Mane, Firmino, Origi and Minamino and now its Salah, Nunez, Diaz, Jota, Firmino. Three years ago our defence was Trent, Clyne, Lovren, VVD, Matip, Gomez, Robbo and probably Millie and now its Trent, Ramsay, Konate, VVD, Matip, Gomez, Robbo and Tsimikas. We've bought through Kelleher and Daviesin goal. There's no doubt that we should have done better in midfield but we really shouldn't start bemoaning extending certain players contracts just because we've done a couple in midfield that we probably shouldn't have with hindsight (or not as long anyway).

Two years as well is neither here nor there, more than happy moving forward if two year extensions with an option for a third becomes the form for players going into their 30s. Its a sensible position.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline jepovic

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15011 on: November 18, 2022, 04:05:33 pm »
This conversation is going around in circles.

We have Nunez and Mo, whom I would think a certain starter. Then Diaz on the left.  With Jota and Firmino as backups.

The discussion is Firmino should go and get someone younger in.

My question is, what striker are we going to get for how much money + wages to be 5th choice?

Bobby only costs us his wages. His transfer fee has been amortized out and well paid for with the trophies he's helped bring.

So. for those penny pinchers, take Bobby's salary and go find a young 5th choice striker and pay that transfer fee + wages.

Or do we have that in Ben Doak or Fabio Carvalho and Jurgen has already future planned for it.
Also, what quality strikers are willing to have such a backup role? A young, ambitious striker takes a look at Nunez and Salah and then he looks elsewhere for playing time

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15012 on: November 18, 2022, 05:25:36 pm »
This conversation is going around in circles.

We have Nunez and Mo, whom I would think a certain starter. Then Diaz on the left.  With Jota and Firmino as backups.

The discussion is Firmino should go and get someone younger in.

My question is, what striker are we going to get for how much money + wages to be 5th choice?

Bobby only costs us his wages. His transfer fee has been amortized out and well paid for with the trophies he's helped bring.

So. for those penny pinchers, take Bobby's salary and go find a young 5th choice striker and pay that transfer fee + wages.

Or do we have that in Ben Doak or Fabio Carvalho and Jurgen has already future planned for it.



The thing is we don’t actually need him, we’re extremely well stocked with attackers who want to be in the middle of the pitch - squad composition wise swapping him for a wide forward makes a ton more sense
We don’t need a 5th choice forward we need a young wide forward who would be second choice behind Salah   
Ideally Firmino wouldn’t start a single league game next season (Nunez and Jota are both significantly better players) so it’s an extension that’s almost immediately redundant but also has an opportunity costs as hell take a squad slot, minutes (because as we’ve seen with Milner senior players need to be given game time) and wages that should be better used elsewhere

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15013 on: November 18, 2022, 05:47:02 pm »
Seven players out of a squad of 22/23? :D

Its all a bit daft now. You're talking like we're struggling financially, that we can't afford to have certain players on big money, that there's this major drop off as soon as someone hits 30. If money is as tight as you seem to think, it surely makes more sense to extend players who are still contributing rather than having to pay more for a younger replacement?

The problem is if you keep on renewing deals for players on big wages then you end up being unable to bring in players to replace them. You end up spending your budget on wages and then end up with an aging squad. We have already seen that with the midfield.
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Offline Skagger

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15014 on: November 18, 2022, 06:36:41 pm »
His teeth are boss. This felt an appropriate 100th post.
Henderson has been very good in patches and if he had the confidence of Shelvey he would be some player.
Shame how it ended, hell of a ride though.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15015 on: November 18, 2022, 07:27:08 pm »
Another thing is Bobby is a lot of brilliant things and has been for yrs, but I'm not sure bobby is false 9 anymore, he seems more of a no.10, a position we don't even play generally

Our 1st choice forward players are completely different in style(faster looking to run in behind), in theory having a sub that is different can be useful, but usually isn't.  Bobby is like having a 31 yr old carra deputising, for robbo at left back, we would have to change our team shape to bring the best out of him and you would rather build your team around your starters and have your squad players that can 1 for 1 replace them.  It was like when we had an older sturridge as an understudy for bobby a few yrs back, it never really suited us.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15016 on: November 18, 2022, 08:08:14 pm »
Diarrhea levels of excreta in this thread.

The guy deserves a new contract, because people far more qualified and clued in think so.

"Discuss" all you want. The managers gotta do what the managers gotta do.

If experts on RAWK say he is not worth a new contract, the opposite must be true.  :wave
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15017 on: November 18, 2022, 08:11:57 pm »
The problem is if you keep on renewing deals for players on big wages then you end up being unable to bring in players to replace them. You end up spending your budget on wages and then end up with an aging squad. We have already seen that with the midfield.

So we shouldn’t renew players who are on big wages?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15018 on: November 18, 2022, 08:16:58 pm »
He won't be offered anything near to what he's on now.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15019 on: November 19, 2022, 09:16:52 am »
He won't be offered anything near to what he's on now.

Agreed, then it's up to him to decide whether he wants to be a squad player/4th or 5th choice or go off and look else where.  I'd be fine with both situations, if was to leave I'd be happy with what he's done for us and wish him well, if he stayed, I'd be happy as he can still bring something to the team/squad.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15020 on: November 19, 2022, 10:57:48 am »
He won't be offered anything near to what he's on now.

His pension goes up in line with inflation though...
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15021 on: November 19, 2022, 11:00:58 am »
Diarrhea levels of excreta in this thread.

The guy deserves a new contract, because people far more qualified and clued in think so.

"Discuss" all you want. The managers gotta do what the managers gotta do.

If experts on RAWK say he is not worth a new contract, the opposite must be true.  :wave

no excreta here. but some rather decent argument for and against the extension.

the people far more qualified and clued in are the one that got us arthur and the mess in midfield. they are not beyond criticism and i guess that the firmino conundrum is a rather good talking point about the squad moving forward

im in the boat of rather letting his contract run down while we try to get a younger and more valuable asset in. Surely the "qualified" staff at looking at the data have some targets that is worth taking a punt on or if not are they even "qualified" to bring the team moving forward. We have already taken some steps back any more mistakes and we will be an afterthought in the league

He will still be a club legend and one of the best players as a false 9 that have graced anfield even if he doesn't have his contract renewed.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15022 on: November 19, 2022, 11:18:09 am »
Would let him go and bring in a younger wide player for a better balance in attack. Given Mo plays all the time any Bobby minutes will usually come with Mo on the pitch too so don't really want another year in the legs and ending up with them playing together lots. We saw a worrying glimpse at Forest without the energy of Diogo, Darwin or Luis to help. One older bloke up top is enough and it's a no contest between the two. Think his numbers flatter his performances this season too, some lovely stuff but quite a few stinkers too and doesn't seem physically what he was.

It's all well and good suggesting keep every player 30 + because they are still good and Modric, Lewandowski etc but a tiny decline in just a few ends up being a big problem for the team and then our points tally! We are amazing at finding attackers, let's save some wages here and get our next god.

And let Matip and one or two of our starting midfielders go as well.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15023 on: November 19, 2022, 05:28:59 pm »
no excreta here. but some rather decent argument for and against the extension.

the people far more qualified and clued in are the one that got us arthur and the mess in midfield. they are not beyond criticism and i guess that the firmino conundrum is a rather good talking point about the squad moving forward]
We keep seeing this but what makes you qualified to criticise them? None of us have a clue what's going on in the backround so you end up fulminating at length about something that might not even be happening or wherein the facts are very different. We don't even know of he's going to sign a new contract. And if he is we don't know the term of it or the cost of it, or whether it's going to happen or not contingent on something else happening etc etc

So yeah, Klopp and co aren't "beyond criticism" - by people who know the facts and details and so are criticising from a position of knowledge not neurosis. The rest is just pissing and moaning.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15024 on: November 19, 2022, 06:32:18 pm »
never ceases to amaze me, the number of people who get themselves whipped into a frenzy for weeks / months on end because of something that might happen at LFC that they disagree with.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15025 on: November 19, 2022, 06:35:39 pm »


So yeah, Klopp and co aren't "beyond criticism" - by people who know the facts and details and so are criticising from a position of knowledge not neurosis. The rest is just pissing and moaning.

Fair enough, I expect you have Nothing but fulsome praise for the current governments of the world in the news and politics forum  ;)

« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 06:37:32 pm by markmywords »

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15026 on: November 19, 2022, 06:38:51 pm »
Fair enough, I expect you have Nothing but fulsome praise for the current governments of the world in the news and politics forum  ;)

Oh fuck off with that,if you want to talk Politics then head over there,you posted this shite for a reaction.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15027 on: November 19, 2022, 07:02:33 pm »
Oh fuck off with that,if you want to talk Politics then head over there,you posted this shite for a reaction.

0/10

You missed the point, no one should be heading to the politics forum unless they are qualified or intend to offer nothing but praise according to some on here. Not sure this is a helpful way of looking at things. bobby has been a fine servant, I don't think speculating if he should get an extension or not, is a frenzy or requires someone to have special qualifications

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15028 on: November 19, 2022, 07:58:05 pm »
You don't really want a 5th choice forward on £180000 a week and you don't really need another forward who plays centrally given Nunez, Jota and, probably, Salah as he gets older. Given those 2 facts it's pretty reasonable to question the wisdom of a new contract. And you can understand the alternative points of view, even if I disagree with them. We probably don't need to polarise on this one.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15029 on: November 19, 2022, 09:02:16 pm »
He's got another baby on the way so he needs all the money he can get. :P
Rafa Benitez: "I'll always keep in my heart the good times I've had here, the strong and loyal support of the fans in the tough times and the love from Liverpool. I have no words to thank you enough for all these years and I am very proud to say that I was your manager. Thank you so much once more and always remember: You'll never walk alone."

Online DangerScouse

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15030 on: November 19, 2022, 09:13:31 pm »
You missed the point, no one should be heading to the politics forum unless they are qualified or intend to offer nothing but praise according to some on here. Not sure this is a helpful way of looking at things. bobby has been a fine servant, I don't think speculating if he should get an extension or not, is a frenzy or requires someone to have special qualifications

What an utterly fucking ridiculous comparison. For starters, Klopp is arguably the best manager in the world and his achievements at both Dortmund and Liverpool prove this. He's elevated Liverpool from mediocrity to the best team in the world, the less said about the Tories impact on Britain, the better.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15031 on: November 19, 2022, 09:55:37 pm »
Some dreadful ill-informed shite being posted here. I love Bobby, but leaving that aside, from a footballing perspective it makes sense to give him a new contract. He will more than pay back his salary. His skill set fits well with the newer formation we will now play.
They are only great because we are on our knees......let us arise!

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15032 on: November 20, 2022, 07:25:40 am »
Some dreadful ill-informed shite being posted here. I love Bobby, but leaving that aside, from a footballing perspective it makes sense to give him a new contract. He will more than pay back his salary. His skill set fits well with the newer formation we will now play.

Which formation is that then?

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15033 on: November 20, 2022, 08:23:19 am »
What an utterly fucking ridiculous comparison. For starters, Klopp is arguably the best manager in the world and his achievements at both Dortmund and Liverpool prove this. He's elevated Liverpool from mediocrity to the best team in the world, the less said about the Tories impact on Britain, the better.

If we had MPs with the same ability to do their jobs as our staff across the club, the country wouldn't be fucked.

If Jurgen wants to keep Bobby, then that's all that matters
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15034 on: November 20, 2022, 10:15:05 am »
Funny thread this. Seems like the extreme responses are from those who believe he should say. I wouldnt call it a shite decision that deserves everything burning down. Yet you take the opposition position, you are talking shite, dont ever question anybody.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15035 on: November 20, 2022, 10:35:08 am »
We keep seeing this but what makes you qualified to criticise them?

No one is qualified for any opinion they post on here - for the 8000th time in my time here ... its a forum ... a place where views are exchanged ... not a cult
Debate or challenge the view if you don't agree with it, or ignore it but dont question people's right to have a view that's differnet from the people at the club

Offline Ghost Town

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15036 on: November 20, 2022, 01:40:15 pm »
No one is qualified for any opinion they post on here - for the 8000th time in my time here ... its a forum ... a place where views are exchanged ... not a cult
Debate or challenge the view if you don't agree with it, or ignore it but dont question people's right to have a view that's differnet from the people at the club
For the 8001th time the person didn't say anythng about discussion or debate, and nor did I. They were speaking specifically about the much demanded 'right to criticise' (as if anyone is stopping them anyway) and so was I. And in particular that to be able to criticise something you need to have the facts about it, and we don't currently have any facts about any potential Firmino contract: whether it's actually happening, and if so how long for or what the purported wage would be or what his role would be or anything else such as maybe his being re-signed being contingent on other departures or arrivals/non-arrivals. Nothing. Nothing yet to jump onto and criticise.

We know how much people here love to stick the boot in and cry and whinge but maybe we can at least wait till we have the facts before loosening the bowels of blather over it? Or is even that too much to expect now? No doubt if a contract extention is announced everyone will go to town on it, despite continuing claims that they are somehow being 'stopped' or 'oppressed' from talking any amount of shite, and this thread about a glorious, joyful footballer will become as unreadable a cess-pit as others' threads have become.

But, you know, cult.

A word that can apply multiple ways
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Offline JackWard33

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15037 on: November 20, 2022, 04:58:14 pm »
For the 8001th time the person didn't say anythng about discussion or debate, and nor did I. They were speaking specifically about the much demanded 'right to criticise' (as if anyone is stopping them anyway) and so was I. And in particular that to be able to criticise something you need to have the facts about it, and we don't currently have any facts about any potential Firmino contract: whether it's actually happening, and if so how long for or what the purported wage would be or what his role would be or anything else such as maybe his being re-signed being contingent on other departures or arrivals/non-arrivals. Nothing. Nothing yet to jump onto and criticise.

We know how much people here love to stick the boot in and cry and whinge but maybe we can at least wait till we have the facts before loosening the bowels of blather over it? Or is even that too much to expect now? No doubt if a contract extention is announced everyone will go to town on it, despite continuing claims that they are somehow being 'stopped' or 'oppressed' from talking any amount of shite, and this thread about a glorious, joyful footballer will become as unreadable a cess-pit as others' threads have become.

But, you know, cult.

A word that can apply multiple ways

Firmino is out of contract at the end of the season - some people think he should get a new contract, some people think we should let him go
Either opinion is valid and so is dicussing it. Ta

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15038 on: November 20, 2022, 05:04:28 pm »
Funny thread this. Seems like the extreme responses are from those who believe he should say. I wouldnt call it a shite decision that deserves everything burning down. Yet you take the opposition position, you are talking shite, dont ever question anybody.
Why do you hate old people so much?

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #15039 on: November 20, 2022, 05:28:58 pm »
Firmino is out of contract at the end of the season - some people think he should get a new contract, some people think we should let him go
Either opinion is valid and so is dicussing it. Ta

As near as I can tell, no one is stopping anyone from giving an opinion in this thread or any thread.

Either we are a club of supporters or become a club of customers.