Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[Corkboy]

And, indeed, the lad often went to ground even before the slide tackle came in. There have encouraging signs recently, however, that Lucas has conquered this phobia. He's started to alter the direction of his run once he's got beyond his man. He seems less inclined to settle for the foul.

That's the one, make your run across the path of your chasing player. He has to either take you down or miss a stride or two.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

I suppose we're conditioned to expect shit on the wings for the past two decades. Maxi's not so shit. I want more quality there though and hopefully it's rectified soon. Centre midfield though, we've had Hamann, Alonso and Masch in recent seasons. Lucas will be compared to those, which is naturally unfair as each player has his own qualities and the system any decent manager adopts will reflect that too.

It's not a new complaint either at any level of the game. I had a lad play next to me who was the perfect dm in the New South Wales state league years ago, read the play brilliantly, always covered for you well, never shirked a tackle. Was he the best one-on-one defendr? No. If I tried ten dribbles on him, I would beat him about 6 / 7 times. Quickest? No. Best passer? No. Marking?. Very good. Positioning? Very good.

You get the drift. But if you were to take one player out from that team of that season that would've crippled us the most - it would've been him. To an extent due to the system we played, and more importantly for his ability to anticipate, position and cover (which would be his strengths, if you wanted standout qualities), taking him out (and it happened a bit due to suspensions, injury, even lack of transport a few times!) made us disorganised and easy to get through. I came to appreciate the role of that type of player throughout that season.

Lucas reminds me a lot of that type of player. Thing is, Lucas actually had to learn that role, as he was originally more of an attack minded player. That's probably the most encouraging thing about this, the fact that he has to learn the position and is still good enough to hold his own there these days.

As long as the people that make the decisions recognise his quality, the boy can prosper.

[MassDriver]

Talk about missing the point.

No one is saying that Lucas is a crap player. We all know he is a good player just like Kuyt, Merillies. But again, it is this kind of post which makes this discussion more heated. There are tons of supporters like you who start questioning the rights to criticize or basically saying something which is not positive in the case Lucas.

You can clearly see the tread of this thread when people start comparing him with the likes of better players like Gerrard, Xavi, Busquests and saying he is on par and will be better.

Imo, we have waited for 2 years and nothing "new" has come out from Lucas. If it is consistency which people love about Lucas, then it is consistency decent at most which he has shown much like Kuyt.

Repeatedly saying that does not make it true. No one compared their abilities , those players were used to illustrate certain similarities in playing styles. There is a massive difference between the two.

You are the one who is missing the point.

[koolkamal]

You can clearly see the tread of this thread when people start comparing him with the likes of better players like Gerrard, Xavi, Busquests and saying he is on par and will be better.

Imo, we have waited for 2 years and nothing "new" has come out from Lucas. If it is consistency which people love about Lucas, then it is consistency decent at most which he has shown much like Kuyt.

That's the thing though people aren't comparing Lucas to said players directly - they're comparing roles in the team and certain attributes and circumstances. It's a fair comparison to say Lucas is similar to Busquets because they both offer very similar things... difference being Busquets is playing in a team on form with some of the best players in world football whereas Lucas is playing in a team that's been struggling for some time. So right now Lucas is consistent without being too flashy but maybe when the team is performing and confidence levels are higher we'll see more from him.

It's also a fair comparison with Xavi when he was the same age as Lucas. (that's not to say they're the same quality) but look at the development and what both players offered at the same age. Xavi was no where near as good as he is now in fact up till say 25/26 he barely ever even got more than 5 assists in a league season forget goals. His job was simply pass and move. (Water carrier so speak). It's only in the last few years where he's improved his game to a whole different level.

Bottom line is Lucas is a good player with potential to be so much better. He's good enough for the first team and he's good enough for a team challenging for titles.

[leivapool]

Talk about missing the point.

No one is saying that Lucas is a crap player. We all know he is a good player just like Kuyt, Merillies. But again, it is this kind of post which makes this discussion more heated. There are tons of supporters like you who start questioning the rights to criticize or basically saying something which is not positive in the case Lucas.

You can clearly see the tread of this thread when people start comparing him with the likes of better players like Gerrard, Xavi, Busquests and saying he is on par and will be better.

Imo, we have waited for 2 years and nothing "new" has come out from Lucas. If it is consistency which people love about Lucas, then it is consistency decent at most which he has shown much like Kuyt.

Touche.

You clearly missed the point I was making.  I was not condemning/condoning/criticising the supporters/detractors of Lucas and their right to have an opinion.  Infact, if you look through my posts on Lucas I have repeatedly said that whilst I think he is a great player, I appreciate that others do not.  And I personally have not caused the heated discussions on here.

So to repeat,  why he is the most talked about player we have on this and other forums?

[RBrittain]

Tired of defending Lucas against each new knobhead that comes waltzing into this thread , demanding to have a debate which has already been had like a thousand times. Read the fucking thread.

The thing is though, they're not. They're coming in here and giving their opinion for others to read. It's up to you whether you debate them - no-one is demanding it.

Its time we had a poll on Lucas to put it to bed. I will change my user name to dumb fuck if he gets less than 80 % of votes in his favour.

A good idea.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

I'm still wondering why Lucas triggers SO much debate, yet players like Maxi float almost invisibly under the radar.

 Maxi's not been here long, but already has a cool song and the fans seem to like him.  Why so much hate/dislike/doubt (delete as applicable) towards Lucas?  My opinion is that Maxi is a nice little player, but he has just as many flaws as Lucas, yet people aren't constantly debating his strengths/weaknesses?
 

i have my theories lol

1. that derby game when he came on for gerarrd.....imo a lot of fans found this hard to take in.
2.alonso.....fans wanted a passer like alonso not what lucas brings to the table.

[Corkboy]

i have my theories lol

1. that derby game when he came on for gerarrd.....imo a lot of fans found this hard to take in.

Even though it was his shot that Neville saved that led to the peno....?

[RBrittain]

I'm still wondering why Lucas triggers SO much debate, yet players like Maxi float almost invisibly under the radar.

 Maxi's not been here long, but already has a cool song and the fans seem to like him.  Why so much hate/dislike/doubt (delete as applicable) towards Lucas?  My opinion is that Maxi is a nice little player, but he has just as many flaws as Lucas, yet people aren't constantly debating his strengths/weaknesses?

Well, at least you have shown some originality. The standard position here is to throw in Kuyt: "Kuyt's worse than Lucas, so why aren't we hating on him!" the likes of yorkykopite cry regularly (though failing to realise that Kuyt is actually more hated than Lucas on this particular forum). 'Yorky' will frequently suggest that others are ignorant for not seeing Lucas' game, while he himself is ignorant for not appreciating Kuyt's game, which is also more about team-work than the individual.

So, to bring up Maxi is a new viewpoint. I would say that Maxi probably doesn't do quite enough to earn a first team spot, though that's more to do with the lack of squad depth. I'm quite surprised that there is little criticism of him, as he is, as you say, similar to Lucas in that he: Has noticeable flaws, usually plays it short, and does nothing spectacular. That said, I feel he probably does bring more to the team than Lucas and some recent moments are still fresh in the mind: The goals he scored earlier in the season, and recently against Everton, I do recall some dynamic play like when he suddenly pounced on an Everton mistake and instantly shot from outside the box, which was quick thinking and almost worked. Overall, I feel he is at a higher level than Lucas is, but he's certainly no better than Kuyt so you are quite right to bring him up, as we see a lot of hatred directed at both Lucas and Kuyt, but none at Maxi, when there isn't really that much between the three.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

i like maxi.

and this is from a football watcher who really didnt rate him that highly when he was in la liga.
to me he had good spells of form but also bad ones.

here the tactical jon he does is quite good....thought he was superb in hidden way first half v everton.

the wya he plays the game is simple ...shame he isnt the right side of 25

[leivapool]

I used Maxi as an example, but it could be applied to most of our players.  Skrtel has been dire recently, yet there is no 'why we should we keep Skrtel thread', stating all his positives/weaknesses?  What is it about Lucas that he invites discussion so much?  And some quite heated discussion.

I'd still like a poll to see what percentage of the fans on here love/rate/like/don't rate/ect Lucas.  Massdriver might need to change his username!!  after, but I doubt it!

[leivapool]

Oh and I think Maxi is a great little player 

Right I'm off to read the whole thread again to see who does/doesn't rate lucas

[Yorkykopite]

The standard position here is to throw in Kuyt: "Kuyt's worse than Lucas, so why aren't we hating on him!" the likes of yorkykopite cry regularly .

If I "cry that regularly" you'll have no trouble showing an example, will you?

I'll set you a little challenge to make it more interesting. I'll give you £100,000 if you can find me saying this. You give me a tenner if you can't. How about it?

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Oh and I think Maxi is a great little player 

Right I'm off to read the whole thread again to see who does/doesn't rate lucas

Seriously, fuck it off. It doesn't matter. It's a waste of your life.

[leivapool]

Seriously, fuck it off. It doesn't matter. It's a waste of your life.

Good point articulately made 

[MassDriver]

I used Maxi as an example, but it could be applied to most of our players.  Skrtel has been dire recently, yet there is no 'why we should we keep Skrtel thread', stating all his positives/weaknesses?  What is it about Lucas that he invites discussion so much?  And some quite heated discussion.

I'd still like a poll to see what percentage of the fans on here love/rate/like/don't rate/ect Lucas.  Massdriver might need to change his username!!  after, but I doubt it!

  Don't believe it will come to that. I believe i've got more than 80. I would be worried if this was TIA or something. 

[RBrittain]

I used Maxi as an example, but it could be applied to most of our players.  Skrtel has been dire recently, yet there is no 'why we should we keep Skrtel thread', stating all his positives/weaknesses?  What is it about Lucas that he invites discussion so much?  And some quite heated discussion.

I'd still like a poll to see what percentage of the fans on here love/rate/like/don't rate/ect Lucas.  Massdriver might need to change his username!!  after, but I doubt it!

I think almost everyone here agrees that Skrtel isn't good enough, so there would be little point in such a thread - The Skrtel detractors would hugely outnumber the Skrtel lovers, whereas this thread is fairly even.

I just created such a poll but it mysteriously disappeared after a minute or so!

[MassDriver]

I think almost everyone here agrees that Skrtel isn't good enough, so there would be little point in such a thread - The Skrtel detractors would hugely outnumber the Skrtel lovers, whereas this thread is fairly even.

I just created such a poll but it mysteriously disappeared after a minute or so!

Oh no no no , as a poll would easily prove. It's just that the Lucas detractors are very vocal in expressing themselves in this thread. And when you have detractors , you will have defenders.

[Neil D]

i have my theories lol

1. that derby game when he came on for gerarrd.....imo a lot of fans found this hard to take in.
2.alonso.....fans wanted a passer like alonso not what lucas brings to the table.

I sort of agree, the main reasons why I think Lucas became so disliked, rightly or wrongly, were:

1. He wasn't Xabi Alonso
2. He wasn't Steven Gerrard, and he was playing in central midfield while Stevie was playing off Torres, which a lot of people championing for Gerrard as a CM thought was wrong
3. He wasn't Mascherano
4. When he first came here, he was nowhere near as good as any of those three players, and the team was significantly weakened whenever any of them were rested for him
5. He didn't and doesn't score goals
6. He didn't beat men with trickery or skill, do tricks, or display any attacking 'Brazilian' traits beyond occasional brilliant passes
7. He had long hair
8. He was seen as Rafa's favourite, and associated with all, and seen to be indicative of, Rafa's failings by his detractors
9. Rafa would rarely sub him, no matter how badly he was playing, and take off fan's favourites instead
10. He developed a reputation for conceding daft fouls after a couple led to goals, and wimping out of challenges, even though generally he put his foot in and only conceded fouls when necessary

[Yorkykopite]

RBrittain - are you up for the challenge I set you? Or do you just want to hide?

[MartinSkrtelsBasement]

I sort of agree, the main reasons why I think Lucas became so disliked, rightly or wrongly, were:

1. He wasn't Xabi Alonso
2. He wasn't Steven Gerrard, and he was playing in central midfield while Stevie was playing off Torres, which a lot of people championing for Gerrard as a CM thought was wrong
3. He wasn't Mascherano
4. When he first came here, he was nowhere near as good as any of those three players, and the team was significantly weakened whenever any of them were rested for him

Exactly, and somebody earlier wrote about how 'Maxi escapes the radar'. Maxi escapes the radar because he plays out wide (usually), and Liverpool haven't really had a quality wide player since McManaman if that. As the person above illustrates, Lucas came to the club at a time when Liverpool were rich in quality midfield player. The likes of Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard even Sissoko were/are extremely popular here and Lucas is not quite in their bracket.

Now that were weak in that area, he is beginning to shine and people are valuing his true worth. He is strong in the tackle more often than not; a good passer of the ball if not a little unadventurous; well tempered; hard-working and I do believe given a license that he has goals in him. I remember when he first signed, his goalscoring stats from midfield at Gremio were Lampardesque. I'm not saying he's capable of 20 goals a season but a few here and there is well within his capabilities imo. 

His main problem is that he has been asked to play roles which just aren't him. He's not a holding midfield player. neither is Merieles, Spearing, Shelvey, Gerrard. Poulson is perhaps but you know the story there...

[Sangria]

I replied to liverpooll, after he said people were claiming he was as good as these illustrious players. I explained he'd got it wrong.

That's only because people are trying to explain football in terms others can understand. Try to explain the technical details of what he does, and it goes over their heads, as they don't even understand the concepts behind it. This is my point about language and how it limits understanding. So they try and alternative method instead, which is to point to a wellknown player, and describe how Lucas is that type of player. When they do that, the critics splutter with outrage at how Lucas is being compared with these players when he's not their level. Thus missing the point that Lucas isn't being compared to them in quality, but in role and player type.

Then liverpooll goes and posts this.

Talk about missing the point.

No one is saying that Lucas is a crap player. We all know he is a good player just like Kuyt, Merillies. But again, it is this kind of post which makes this discussion more heated. There are tons of supporters like you who start questioning the rights to criticize or basically saying something which is not positive in the case Lucas.

You can clearly see the tread of this thread when people start comparing him with the likes of better players like Gerrard, Xavi, Busquests and saying he is on par and will be better.

Imo, we have waited for 2 years and nothing "new" has come out from Lucas. If it is consistency which people love about Lucas, then it is consistency decent at most which he has shown much like Kuyt.

So redmark, Juan and others, I'd like to ask you. What basis for discussion is there, when there is such a fundamental disconnection between what people say and what people hear?

[mulhergremista]

Oh and just for the record I think Lucas will be world class in a couple of years, not now, but soon.

My opinion?  Lucas is  one of the best pass and move players we have.  If Kenny brings back pass and move, and it already looks like he is, then Lucas will be integral to the team.

I thik Lucas has a chance to be at the fifa list of 30 some time if he keeps playing as bunker in the Brazil squad and make some success with them in the Copa America this summer

Playing in Liverppol will not help him reach such status, I am afraid.  If he stays. which is not sure , because nobody renewed his contract,  he will continue to be aa unseeen starter at best. If he finds a club when he will be played and seen, it may help, but there is a catch here, if he goes to a top quality club he will seldom play, so he can also to lose the place in Mano's team. If he goes to a lesser club, he may play all the time and mayby even hold his place in Brazil, but will be unseen and will not progress the way he and Mano want

so, his chances to be a world beater as you call it, has to do only with Mano Menezes and the brazil squad, in Liverpool he will contitue to be a good player, doing unseen work and damaged by Carraguer hoofs.

Unfortunately, even the best "volantes" are not getting any  prizes, the strikers do, look at this last voting.  They chose Messi over Xabi and Iniesta, althogh Messi could not be what he is without them,  but they have been what they are without him

When Xabi was escalated from the yuth tem as a sub for Guardiola,  very few beleived in him. Guardiola did , he said " This one will be soon better than me"  it took him many years, I remember those comments"he is grey, he is boring, he is ot Barcelona quality"  He stayed only for being local lad.  He was underrated and taken for granted, until some other clubs became interested in him.
After many years he became appreciated at last.

Maybe Lucas still has a chance, providig the next steady coach will decide to a liverpool playing the pass and move style.

Last - All the stupid comparisom Lucas- Alonso has no sense at all, it is a fact tha Alonso did not want to stay while Lucas, for some reason not known to me, sticks with Liverpool , is commited100% and wants to stay.   Better count your blessings, scousers, than weeping for the impossible
s

[Yorkykopite]

Last - All the stupid comparisom Lucas- Alonso has no sense at all, it is a fact tha Alonso did not want to stay while Lucas, for some reason not known to me, sticks with Liverpool , is commited100% and wants to stay.   Better count your blessings, scousers, than weeping for the impossible
s

Maybe the reason he sticks with Liverpool is that he recognises the incredible importance of the club on the world football stage. I'm a little bit biased (though only a little bit) but I can't think of a greater football club than Liverpool. 

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Maybe the reason he sticks with Liverpool is that he recognises the incredible importance of the club on the world football stage. I'm a little bit biased (though only a little bit) but I can't think of a greater football club than Liverpool. 

Waterford Utd.

How do you like those apples....

Good point earlier about Lucas moving away from players. I think the core problem with Lucas compared to Alonso or Sergio is his feet are a little too slow. Alonso had incredibly quick feet under pressure, hence the red cards he inflicted. It helped him lose his marker and release the ball very quickly. Lucas doesn't have that. He finds his space BEFORE the ball comes to him. Once at his feet he needs to move the ball on because once under pressure he cannot free himself easily.

[RBrittain]

Maybe he sticks with Liverpool because no other clubs have shown any interest in signing him thus far?

[koolkamal]

Maybe he sticks with Liverpool because no other clubs have shown any interest in signing him thus far?

Wrong again.

[Smashedin]

Maybe he sticks with Liverpool because no other clubs have shown any interest in signing him thus far?

Prepare yourself, good sir, for the torrent of abuse you are about to receive.

[RBrittain]

Wrong again.

No point telling someone they're wrong but not qualifying it.

What clubs have shown any sort of interest in signing Lucas since he has been a Liverpool player?

[koolkamal]

No point telling someone they're wrong but not qualifying it.

What clubs have shown any sort of interest in signing Lucas since he has been a Liverpool player?

It's the same as you saying no other clubs have shown interest in him without having any proof but here's a few that were interested in him Inter, Sevilla, Malaga, Atletico.

[RedGuy]

No point telling someone they're wrong but not qualifying it.

What clubs have shown any sort of interest in signing Lucas since he has been a Liverpool player?

A few clubs made offers for him in the summer, don't really remember who but I think one of them was Palermo?

[RBrittain]

Oh, fair enough. I was wrong. Stoke were after him:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1307668/Stoke-Liverpools-Lucas-Leiva.html

[koolkamal]

A few clubs made offers for him in the summer, don't really remember who but I think one of them was Palermo?

Palermo, Fiorentina were also interested from what I can remember.

[koolkamal]

Oh, fair enough. I was wrong. Stoke were after him:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1307668/Stoke-Liverpools-Lucas-Leiva.html

Stoke were one of the clubs interested in him.

[Smashedin]

Oh, fair enough. I was wrong. Stoke were after him:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1307668/Stoke-Liverpools-Lucas-Leiva.html

An indication of world class status if ever i saw one!

[RedGuy]

An indication of world class status if ever i saw one!

[koolkamal]

An indication of world class status if ever i saw one!

This is the kind of stupid comments that make me angry.

[RBrittain]

Interesting read, this:

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2010/07/04/2009075/liverpool-scare-off-inter-milan-with-8-million-lucas-leiva

Seems Inter (or Benitez, rather) were after him, but they felt that £8 million was far too pricey.

[Smashedin]

This is the kind of stupid comments that make me angry.

These are the kind of comments that confirm there is no substantial argument to prove Lucas' world class abilities.

[leivapool]

Stoke were one of the clubs interested in him.

But he did say on his 60 mins interview that he would only go to a 'good club'!