Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[Julio]

It would be nice to think that all Liverpool supporters will eventually come to appreciate what Lucas does for the team but anyone with a sense of history knows this will never happen. Ian Callaghan and Ronnie Whelan always had their detractors, even after 10 years at the club. 'What does he do?' people asked of Cally, 'And when's he gonna score?' 'All those sideways passes', they said of Whelan, 'He just does the simple thing every time'. We can hear echoes of this today.

A couple of posters on here - the obsessive fella was probably one - complained earlier that all that Lucas did was take the ball and find a colleague in space. You have to love that! It's basically the first sentence of the Bill Shankly Bible turned into the first item on the charge sheet! It reveals such a monumental incomprehension about the game that you wonder how anyone holding such a view can derive any enjoyment at all from watching or playing the sport. The obsessive bloke admits to liking Carragher and Kuyt the most. At the risk of alienating a few of my Lucas pals I'd say 'there's a little clue'. If it's the bish-bash-bosh that you like about football then the more controlled and possession-based game practised by Lucas probably won't appeal. It is, however, precisely what the Reds need. Moreover it's what we always had When We Were Kings. On its own it's not sufficient. You need pace, dynamism and trickery in the team as well (especially on the flanks I'd say). But, equally, you won't get anywhere with these qualities unless you have a midfielder like Lucas who speed-reads the game, supports players needing help and finds players requiring space.

El C, mate, I loved your videos of the lad, but they're wasted on the 'know-nothings'. Because such folk lack any sense of how two or three quick, short passes (even backward passes sometimes) can dishevel the opposition and open up a side of the pitch, they will forever gaze on compilations like yours, grunt a bit, choke on their Farleys, and yell for a nice high ball into the box. You saw yourself how the obsessive 'read' the Lucas heading video. Each one of those headers was made under pressure. In very few of them was Lucas a clear favourite to win the ball. But he won all but one, and in the one he didn't win his opponent - big Fellaini as it happened - was so forcefully challenged that he headed straight to a Red. And then there's this. In every single example in the film - even where an Evertonian picked up the 2nd ball - Liverpool were in a better position after Lucas's aerial challenge than they had been before it. And that's the Lucas creed. It's what his game is based on. He hands over solutions, not problems. Repeatedly. Throughout the game. 

The thread really should be closed after a post like this.
A magisterial analysis of our player of the season. Excellent stuff.

[bleedsred1978]

It would be nice to think that all Liverpool supporters will eventually come to appreciate what Lucas does for the team but anyone with a sense of history knows this will never happen. Ian Callaghan and Ronnie Whelan always had their detractors, even after 10 years at the club. 'What does he do?' people asked of Cally, 'And when's he gonna score?' 'All those sideways passes', they said of Whelan, 'He just does the simple thing every time'. We can hear echoes of this today.

A couple of posters on here - the obsessive fella was probably one - complained earlier that all that Lucas did was take the ball and find a colleague in space. You have to love that! It's basically the first sentence of the Bill Shankly Bible turned into the first item on the charge sheet! It reveals such a monumental incomprehension about the game that you wonder how anyone holding such a view can derive any enjoyment at all from watching or playing the sport. The obsessive bloke admits to liking Carragher and Kuyt the most. At the risk of alienating a few of my Lucas pals I'd say 'there's a little clue'. If it's the bish-bash-bosh that you like about football then the more controlled and possession-based game practised by Lucas probably won't appeal. It is, however, precisely what the Reds need. Moreover it's what we always had When We Were Kings. On its own it's not sufficient. You need pace, dynamism and trickery in the team as well (especially on the flanks I'd say). But, equally, you won't get anywhere with these qualities unless you have a midfielder like Lucas who speed-reads the game, supports players needing help and finds players requiring space.

El C, mate, I loved your videos of the lad, but they're wasted on the 'know-nothings'. Because such folk lack any sense of how two or three quick, short passes (even backward passes sometimes) can dishevel the opposition and open up a side of the pitch, they will forever gaze on compilations like yours, grunt a bit, choke on their Farleys, and yell for a nice high ball into the box. You saw yourself how the obsessive 'read' the Lucas heading video. Each one of those headers was made under pressure. In very few of them was Lucas a clear favourite to win the ball. But he won all but one, and in the one he didn't win his opponent - big Fellaini as it happened - was so forcefully challenged that he headed straight to a Red. And then there's this. In every single example in the film - even where an Evertonian picked up the 2nd ball - Liverpool were in a better position after Lucas's aerial challenge than they had been before it. And that's the Lucas creed. It's what his game is based on. He hands over solutions, not problems. Repeatedly. Throughout the game. 

Powerhouse of a comment there mate. Spot on.

[Neil D]

He's developing into a very good player, I just worry that we won't find the right partner for him in central midfield.

[Chakan]

He's developing into a very good player, I just worry that we won't find the right partner for him in central midfield.

Thought him and Raul were starting to get a good partnership going. Too bad Hodge put a stop to that when Gerrard got back.

[Valery_Karpin]

The thing is, because somebody doesn't appreciate Lucas, or views Lucas in the same light as you, doesn't mean they don't view the game the way it should be viewed. I can see the quality and affect of having Mascherano in the team, I can see what's positive about Lucas in the team, what I don't see is a great player who will be part of a great team. Maybe I view things differently, maybe I don't hold how things were done in the 70's and 80's as my reason for doing things now, but I've been given the impression, since Benitez came here, that the central spine is the most pivotal area of the team, the area where your best players play; the area of the team that is most pivotal to maintaining consistently good results. In 08/09, the pinnacle of Benitez's era, our spine looked like this: Reina, Carragher, Skrtel, Masch, Xabi, Gerrard, Torres. I won't go off listing how those players benefited one and another, and how having those players gelled in the middle made Liverpool a top 5 club in Europe, that much is obvious, but Lucas isn't anywhere near the quality of those marked in bold. He has attributes on a few (more disciplined than Gerrard, quicker than Xabi, better variety of passing than Masch), but doesn't have world class attributes to contribute to a world class spine. He doesn't have great pace, strength or even mobility. He doesn't have great shooting, consistent passing range or game-controlling passing. He doesn't have vision, offensive flair or drive when he's on the ball. The only things he has that are at a top level are intangibles, he's a foot soldier who can be tidy on the ball, but to compete at the highest level, you have to have more than that, you simply do, in my opinion. He can be a squad player, he can back up good players and come in when the foundations are built, but I don't think he can be part of a great core, I just don't think he's good enough to be viewed as a long-term solution.

And yes, I do get it, I have mentioned his obvious qualities, I see them, I just don't see them done well enough for him to form the next Xabi, Masch and Gerrard, I don't see a player in of their caliber in Lucas, or anywhere near their caliber. I feel if we're to succeed in the future, we have to rebuild that spine, or something extremely close to that spine, because it was as close to complete as there is in the modern game.

[Neil D]

Thought him and Raul were starting to get a good partnership going. Too bad Hodge put a stop to that when Gerrard got back.

Raul has been terrible at times for the past month or so, hopefully his form will return. But if we start to play a 4-3-3, perhaps he, Lucas and Gerrard will be adopting slightly different roles.

[Chakan]

Raul has been terrible at times for the past month or so, hopefully his form will return. But if we start to play a 4-3-3, perhaps he, Lucas and Gerrard will be adopting slightly different roles.

Raul hasn't been playing next to Lucas though in the games under Kenny and before that under Roy when Gerrard was back.. Raul and Lucas when played next to each other seem to compliment each other well.

[Salty Dog]

The thing that gripes me with Lucas, and it's the thing that people generally refuse to answer, or excuse from answering, is; what is Lucas actually great at? What attributes does he have that make him world class, or potentially world class? What attributes does he have that are at the levels of those in the top bracket of player?

I've never heard anyone claiming he's fantastic at anything, other than defending his teammates.

And that is my gripe. Maybe I'm living a pipe dream, maybe I'm on another planet to everybody else, but I expect Liverpool midfielders to be world class, or as close to it as you can get. Masch was world class, Gerrard's world class, Alonso was world class, Sissoko wasn't world class but was one of the most formidable midfielders in Europe, an almost impossible opponent to play against. I look at our midfield now and Lucas is the number one midfielder picked, he is picked above everybody else and he was a number one pick last season as well, but I see no attribute that justifies such an integral part of the team. I just can't see what puts him above so many other premier league midfielders, because he doesn't standout at anything other than the intangibles.

So please, Lucas Leiva's Barmy Army, tell me what makes Lucas a stud?

I think his greatest attribute is his ability to read the game.  This allows him to be in the right positions without having to bust a lung to get there.

Second to that, I love the way he can tackle (i.e. win the ball) without leaving his feet, allowing him to use the ball immediately.

[LiamG]

The thing is, because somebody doesn't appreciate Lucas, or views Lucas in the same light as you, doesn't mean they don't view the game the way it should be viewed. I can see the quality and affect of having Mascherano in the team, I can see what's positive about Lucas in the team, what I don't see is a great player who will be part of a great team. Maybe I view things differently, maybe I don't hold how things were done in the 70's and 80's as my reason for doing things now, but I've been given the impression, since Benitez came here, that the central spine is the most pivotal area of the team, the area where your best players play; the area of the team that is most pivotal to maintaining consistently good results. In 08/09, the pinnacle of Benitez's era, our spine looked like this: Reina, Carragher, Skrtel, Masch, Xabi, Gerrard, Torres. I won't go off listing how those players benefited one and another, and how having those players gelled in the middle made Liverpool a top 5 club in Europe, that much is obvious, but Lucas isn't anywhere near the quality of those marked in bold. He has attributes on a few (more disciplined than Gerrard, quicker than Xabi, better variety of passing than Masch), but doesn't have world class attributes to contribute to a world class spine. He doesn't have great pace, strength or even mobility. He doesn't have great shooting, consistent passing range or game-controlling passing. He doesn't have vision, offensive flair or drive when he's on the ball. The only things he has that are at a top level are intangibles, he's a foot soldier who can be tidy on the ball, but to compete at the highest level, you have to have more than that, you simply do, in my opinion. He can be a squad player, he can back up good players and come in when the foundations are built, but I don't think he can be part of a great core, I just don't think he's good enough to be viewed as a long-term solution.

And yes, I do get it, I have mentioned his obvious qualities, I see them, I just don't see them done well enough for him to form the next Xabi, Masch and Gerrard, I don't see a player in of their caliber in Lucas, or anywhere near their caliber. I feel if we're to succeed in the future, we have to rebuild that spine, or something extremely close to that spine, because it was as close to complete as there is in the modern game.

I can kind of see where your coming from

Masch,Xabi and Gerrard are World Class players, Lucas dosent fall into that category as useful to us as he is, It's the truth

[SMD]

Well he was my man of the match against Everton

Without him, we would've been dominated in midfield.

[Julio]

I can kind of see where your coming from

Masch,Xabi and Gerrard are World Class players, Lucas dosent fall into that category as useful to us as he is, It's the truth

Is Mascherano really world-class, though? Not a particularly good passer of the ball and has nowhere near the same positional sense as a player like Lucas. Javier was forever manically sprinting to the ball and making cruching, last-ditch tackles (which, conversely, was probably why he was rated so highly in Britain), while Lucas cleans up tidily and without fuss, because he knows intuitively where the ball will go - and is there when it arrives. The comparisons to Hamann are apt, I feel.

[GrkStav]

Masch was world class from the moment he stepped foot here 'til the moment he left. Xabi was world class, hindered by injuries but his class was there for all to see, hence the reason the club constantly met expectations back then by finishing in the top 4 and reaching the deeper stages of the CL.

The hell he was!

And Xabi did not become world class until his last season with LFC.

Revisionist history is fun and all that but it doesn't make it true.

[LiamG]

Is Mascherano really world-class, though? Not a particularly good passer of the ball and has nowhere near the same positional sense as a player like Lucas. Javier was forever manically sprinting to the ball and making cruching, last-ditch tackles (which, conversely, was probably why he was rated so highly in Britain), while Lucas cleans up tidily and without fuss, because he knows intuitively where the ball will go. The comparisons to Hamann are apt, I feel.

1 of the best defensive midfielders in the world id say he is but thats my opinion

[GrkStav]

Xabi Alonso wasn't even regularly getting into the Spain NT ffs until he shone in his last season with us.

Mascherano is a world-class specialist DM, he's not a world-class footballer.

Lucas Leiva is not a world-class anything (yet).

[LiamG]

Xabi Alonso wasn't even regularly getting into the Spain NT ffs until he shone in his last season with us.

Mascherano is a world-class specialist DM, he's not a world-class footballer.

Lucas Leiva is not a world-class anything (yet).

Yeah your right i think thats what alot of people are trying to say, But at least with alonso and masch you could see where they could potentially be world class, masch as a DM and alonso with his passing, you couldnt really pick anything with lucas as his all round game is a credit to himself but whats going to set him apart in the future?

[Julio]

1 of the best defensive midfielders in the world id say he is but thats my opinion

Fair enough, I just feel that world-class defensive midfielders are the ones who take care of problems efficiently without the barn-storming, all-action stuff we get from players who are really just compensating for being in the wrong position. Players like Alonso, Hamann, Makelele and, going back a little further, Dunga, Deschamps et al. Lucas is quickly becoming part of that elite group.

[mickeydocs]

He doesn't have vision, offensive flair or drive when he's on the ball. The only things he has that are at a top level are intangibles, he's a foot soldier who can be tidy on the ball, but to compete at the highest level, you have to have more than that, you simply do, in my opinion.

Most people consider Roy Keane a modern midfield great. Apart from determination I can not find one area that Keane absolutely excelled in other than the ability to read the game well and to carry out his Manager's orders.

[Roger Federer]

I think Mascherano is one of our most overrated players in recent years.

That doesn't mean he wasn't a very good player, but Masch didn't develop his game during his time here (he played his best football in his first 18 months imo), and his first touch and sometimes decision making (mostly when in possession), wasn't great. I perfer the type of midfielder that Lucas is and if he continues to develop, he'll become better than Masch.

[mickeydocs]

We have missed Mascherano hugely this season!

[Valery_Karpin]

The hell he was!

And Xabi did not become world class until his last season with LFC.

Revisionist history is fun and all that but it doesn't make it true.

Of course he was, he walked into our club and Sissoko was dropped within weeks. Other than lacking match sharpness and obvious adaptations to English football, he was class and he shown that on our way to the CL final, immense against PSV, immense against Chelsea, immense in the final, he established himself as the best anchorman in the league within four or five months of being at the club. He was already an established Argentina international and an integral part to their side, a side that should go down as one of the biggest underachievers due to 'odd' coaching at the 2006 world cup. As for the whole footballer lark, Masch had his limitations but he never tried to play to them, he knew his strengths and he shown them throughout his career here. Now at Barca they're developing his all-round game, which is good, and, if successful, will probably cement Mascherano's place as the best holding player in the world.

Maybe Xabi wasn't recognized as truly world class until his final season here, but he'd been a pivotal hub at the heart of our midfield throughout Benitez's reign. Stereotyped history is something that will always follow Alonso, those who supported Benitez in 2008 when he wanted to get rid felt it justified, stereotyping 'he'd been poor for two years' and 'Gerrard does everything he does', it wasn't until he went that people realized what Xabi had been doing for us throughout his entire time here.

[Ambrosia]

I think Mascherano is one of our most overrated players in recent years.

That doesn't mean he wasn't a very good player, but Masch didn't develop his game during his time here (he played his best football in his first 18 months imo), and his first touch and sometimes decision making (mostly when in possession), wasn't great. I perfer the type of midfielder that Lucas is and if he continues to develop, he'll become better than Masch.

I don't buy that Lucas will become better than Masch, as a defensive midfielder anyway. Mascherano has a certain energy and tenaciousness that no other defensive midfielder has. As in regards to his first touch and decision making, i think it's unfair to judge that aspect of his game on his years at Liverpool. I always found him to be a different player when playing for Argentina. Seemed to fit in very smoothly with the passing and technical play but back in Liverpool, he'd turn a little inconsistent. I put that down to the different style of play.

Lucas is a decent player with Liverpool, but his recent games with Brazil have shown he plays better, and imo that's down to the more positive football played. Both Masch and Lucas have suffered from having less technical players around them at Liverpool, especially Lucas.

[simesy]

Xabi Alonso wasn't even regularly getting into the Spain NT ffs until he shone in his last season with us.

Mascherano is a world-class specialist DM, he's not a world-class footballer.

Lucas Leiva is not a world-class anything (yet).

Thats about it.Masch broke opposition attacks up but couldn't pass for toffee.Lucas doesnt tackle like masch but is a better passer of the ball.As for alonso noone could touch him and his range of passing when at his best.We dont have an alonso type player nor a masch.Lucas is a different type of midfielder so you cannot compare him to the others.He does however have tremendous distribution and he's improving all the time.He's been our best player this season.those who dont rate him probably thought ronnie whelan was shite as he is the nearest comparison to lucas.

[Valery_Karpin]

Most people consider Roy Keane a modern midfield great. Apart from determination I can not find one area that Keane absolutely excelled in other than the ability to read the game well and to carry out his Manager's orders.

Roy Keane never played for us, though. He played for a completely different team in a completely different era, comparing other club's players to ours is absolutely pointless. Compare Lucas to what has been successful at our club, compare Lucas to players we've seen fit in at our club and the bars they've set for players. I don't think using Masch and Xabi as the measuring stick is wrong, as they played for us only two/one season ago, but using players like Roy Keane or whoever, players who played their peak years in a different era for a different club is, as there are far too many things that complicate the comparison.

[Neil D]

The hell he was!

And Xabi did not become world class until his last season with LFC.

Revisionist history is fun and all that but it doesn't make it true.

Xabi Alonso wasn't even regularly getting into the Spain NT ffs until he shone in his last season with us.

Mascherano is a world-class specialist DM, he's not a world-class footballer.

Lucas Leiva is not a world-class anything (yet).

I couldn't disagree more. I think Mascherano was a world class defensive midfielder during his entire time here, he was amazing during his first 18 months and last year was our best player.

And so was Xabi, even though they were very different players. Xabi was phenomenal for his first two seasons here, then had an average couple of years plagued by injury, then a superb final year. Xabi not getting into the Spain team has fuck all to do with anything - when he had world class midfielders like Xavi, Iniesta and Senna keeping him out of the side.

I think Mascherano is one of our most overrated players in recent years.

That doesn't mean he wasn't a very good player, but Masch didn't develop his game during his time here (he played his best football in his first 18 months imo), and his first touch and sometimes decision making (mostly when in possession), wasn't great. I perfer the type of midfielder that Lucas is and if he continues to develop, he'll become better than Masch.

Again I couldn't disagree more, I don't think Lucas is in Masch's league and doubt he ever will be. Mascherano was an absolute dynamo, playing with an intensity and assured confidence I haven't seen from Lucas. He dominated midfields and imposed himself on the opposition, was quicker, a better tackler and had a great physical edge. He wasn't as good in possession as Lucas, but if you offered Liverpool fans the chance to swap the two now most would in a heartbeat. I really rate Lucas, and think he should be a player here for years to come. But I agree with the lad who says we need to get back to a world class spine like we had with Xabi, Masch and Gerrard, when you knew we could take on any team in the world and win.

We have missed Mascherano hugely this season!

Without a doubt.

[LiamG]

The thing is you cant really compare the 2, Masch is a proper defensive midfielder a tackler, Lucas is much a much more all rounder, he can break up play but can link it up aswell

[GrkStav]

In case I wasn't clear.

In my opinion:

When they were the same age as Lucas, neither Xabi Alonso nor Mascherano were "world-class" footballers.

Xabi Alonso was NOT "world-class" until his last season with LFC.

Mascherano became a "world-class specialist DM" whilst playing with us. He wasn't that before he joined us.

Mascherano is, still, NOT a "world-class" footballer.

Lucas Leiva is not, at the moment, a world-class anything.

[Ambrosia]

In case I wasn't clear:

When they were the same age as Lucas, neither Xabi Alonso nor Mascherano were "world-class" footballers.

Xabi Alonso was NOT "world-class" until his last season with LFC.

Mascherano became a "world-class specialist DM" whilst playing with us. He wasn't that before he joined us.

Mascherano is, still, NOT a "world-class" footballer.

Lucas Leiva is not, at the moment, a world-class anything.

You do realise the above is completely subjective?

Therefore, you shouldn't be stating any of the above as if they're fact.

[pistolpete]

People say he's not Masch or Xabi and then others comment on his age and where he is in terms of developing as a player yet the most glaring aspect is Lucas has been learning from both of them!

Add that to his own natural ability, his game intelligence, his temperament and his exemplary ethic for working hard, ignoring the critics and staying humble and we could well have a world class player on our books in a couple of years.

[Laergoth]

thnx to some users i realise we have new Zidane here

of course he can make some passes,tackles,runs...he's a footballer for fucks sake

Well said. Thank you. These people constantly harp on about everyone else "not looking deep enough" into the game. They accuse me of only seeing the individual rather than the team (which is bizarre considering my admiration for Dirk Kuyt). Then, to account for Lucas sideways and backwards passing with the argument, "It's because the players around him aren't moving well enough. That's why he isn't playing like Xavi, because the other Barcelona players move around better!"

What a ridiculous thing to say. First of all, you're belittling Xavi by ignoring the fact that he is a much better footballer than Lucas. Secondly, you're blaming everyone else in the Liverpool team for not 'moving well enough' for Lucas. Well guess what, the team doesn't revolve around Lucas, and it never did. If the other players aren't 'moving properly' for Lucas' style of play, then perhaps that means he isn't the right guy for this team?

But Vidocq pretty much summed up the biggest failing in their whole stance:

They're looking at very average passes, tackles, runs which literally any player can do, and using it as "evidence" for his greatness. FFS, any footballer does those things. Go and watch f*cking Lee Bowyer at Birmingham City! Go and make a compilation of all his passes and tackles in game and some people here will be mightily impressed.

Honestly, if a footballer isn't able to make simple passes, occasional tackles, running round, then they're not good enough for non-league football.

[Neil D]

In case I wasn't clear:

When they were the same age as Lucas, neither Xabi Alonso nor Mascherano were "world-class" footballers.

Xabi Alonso was NOT "world-class" until his last season with LFC.

Mascherano became a "world-class specialist DM" whilst playing with us. He wasn't that before he joined us.

Mascherano is, still, NOT a "world-class" footballer.

Lucas Leiva is not, at the moment, a world-class anything.

You were clear, but I think you were wrong.

Lucas is 24 now and Masch was world class when he joined us at 23, as was Alonso when he joined us at 23.

Xabi was world class throughout his first season, his performance away in Turin the highlight of that, and was world class in 2005-06. Mascherano was world class throughout his time here, his first six months he was incredible.

[Roger Federer]

Again I couldn't disagree more, I don't think Lucas is in Masch's league and doubt he ever will be. Mascherano was an absolute dynamo, playing with an intensity and assured confidence I haven't seen from Lucas. He dominated midfields and imposed himself on the opposition, was quicker, a better tackler and had a great physical edge. He wasn't as good in possession as Lucas, but if you offered Liverpool fans the chance to swap the two now most would in a heartbeat. I really rate Lucas, and think he should be a player here for years to come. But I agree with the lad who says we need to get back to a world class spine like we had with Xabi, Masch and Gerrard, when you knew we could take on any team in the world and win.

I did say if he continued to develop though, right now I'd say Masch was the better player too.

But also, Barcelona with Busquets shows that you don't need a specialist player like Masch at the top level. I, like Guardiola apparently, prefer that type of allround player that Lucas and Busquets are, those who doesn't rely on aggression and pace to win the ball back, but by reading the game. They also remain calm in possession and know what they want to do before Masch does - which means the pass they play is more effective and quicker.

I'd love to have that world class spine back too, but if we replaced Meireles with Alonso (or even better Xavi), we'd have it in an instant. That type of playmaker, and a Gerrard in form, is what made us so good, not our defensive midfielder imo. I don't think it would make even close to the same differance if we swaped Lucas for Masch. In fact, I think I'd prefer a Lucas-Xavi midfield instead of a Masch-Xavi one.

[leivapool]

I did say if he continued to develop though, right now I'd say Masch was the better player too.

But also, Barcelona with Busquets shows that you don't need a specialist player like Masch at the top level. I, like Guardiola apparently, prefer that type of allround player that Lucas and Busquets are, those who doesn't rely on aggression and pace to win the ball back, but by reading the game. They also remain calm in possession and know what they want to do before Masch does - which means the pass they play is more effective and quicker.

I'd love to have that world class spine back too, but if we replaced Meireles with Alonso (or even better Xavi), we'd have it in an instant. That type of playmaker, and a Gerrard in form, is what made us so good, not our defensive midfielder imo. I don't think it would make even close to the same differance if we swaped Lucas for Masch. In fact, I think I'd prefer a Lucas-Xavi midfield instead of a Masch-Xavi one.

How about we get a few wide class players for Lucas to pass to before we decide to write him off as not world class?  The  movement around Lucas for us this season has been pretty terrible?

[Sangria]

But I agree with the lad who says we need to get back to a world class spine like we had with Xabi, Masch and Gerrard, when you knew we could take on any team in the world and win.

I reckon you could get a similar level of effectiveness, with greater flexibility, if you add a couple more Lucases to the team. Players like Aurelio, Maxi, Arbeloa, and probably Kelly. It would also be more feasible and cheaper, especially if you factor in squad depth and not just the starting XI.

IMHO the right approach is to add as many of these types of players as possible. It's unlikely, in the English game, that you'll find enough to populate the squad, but if there are numbers to spare, only then do you look to skim off the cream and sell the excess. Only when you have enough of these players can you properly use the stars to their full effect.

[leivapool]

I reckon you could get a similar level of effectiveness, with greater flexibility, if you add a couple more Lucases to the team. Players like Aurelio, Maxi, Arbeloa, and probably Kelly. It would also be more feasible and cheaper, especially if you factor in squad depth and not just the starting XI.

IMHO the right approach is to add as many of these types of players as possible. It's unlikely, in the English game, that you'll find enough to populate the squad, but if there are numbers to spare, only then do you look to skim off the cream and sell the excess. Only when you have enough of these players can you properly use the stars to their full effect.

I dream of a team of these pass and move players.  Lucas, Mereiles, Maxi, Torres?, Aurelio I want these type of players in our team!

[GrkStav]

You do realise the above is completely subjective?

Therefore, you shouldn't be stating any of the above as if they're fact.

Edited above accordingly.

[Sangria]

I dream of a team of these pass and move players.  Lucas, Meireles, Maxi, Torres?, Aurelio I want these type of players in our team!

Torres is more of a receive and score player than pass and move. Dunno what he was like at Atletico, but it's what Benitez has moulded him into. It limits his game, but it's what makes him so ridiculously dangerous. He'd still fit into a pass and move side though, as a team can do with one or two of these kinds of players, especially in attack.

[Ambrosia]

Edited above accordingly.

Fair enough 

[Silverbird]

Lucas has done a lot in the past two seasons to convince even his worst detractors that he's good enough for Liverpool. The question people disagree on is whether he's good enough for a title-winning Liverpool.

I like Lucas, and I see the qualities he brings to the team. Picking up people in space, providing an avenue to the defenders, etc, but I agree with the posters who say that he's not exactly the best in anything, unlike Masch or Alonso. The latter's qualities are indisputable and I believe there's consensus that Alonso's departure hurt us badly last season. Masch leads to a lot of disagreements, generally between people who like a holding DM in the team and people who prefer a more attacking-minded CM in that place. In any case, people would agree that Masch was phenomenal in that DM role, whether such a role was needed in the team or not. I have to disagree with people who said Masch didn't have positional sense. Just because he often charged down opponents does not mean he had poor positional sense; it's just his style of play. He was very often in the right place at the right time, and you can see this very clearly whenever the opposition counter-attacked. Masch was never the fastest, but he often was able to stop the opponent's counterattacks by being reasonably near to cut them out.

But I digress. The point is, Lucas does a lot of things well, and has a bit of everything in his arsenal, but nothing outstanding at the moment. He doesn't score many, like Gerrard. He doesn't have the range of passing, the delivery of set-pieces, like Alonso. And though he is a little more mobile than Alonso, Alonso was more physical, and Alonso had quick feet (which I see in Agger as well) that enabled him to gain the first step on opponents. Lucas also lacks the tenacity of Masch, who tackled well and very rarely got yellow-carded.

I personally think Lucas lacks that little extra to be part of a title-winning Liverpool side. I don't know, but I do hope, he can acquire that little extra. Right now, I think he will gain the most by improving his speed and physicality. That will allow him to burst into space occasionally and widen his own options to distribute the ball. Otherwise, from what I have seen thus far, his distribution is limited by the fact that he is very often too deep and can't get forward fast enough to make more penetrative passes. Not sure if people see what I see, or necessarily agree, but well, just my own thoughts on what I must say is a good player.

[Laergoth]

Lucas has done a lot in the past two seasons to convince even his worst detractors that he's good enough for Liverpool. The question people disagree on is whether he's good enough for a title-winning Liverpool.

I like Lucas, and I see the qualities he brings to the team. Picking up people in space, providing an avenue to the defenders, etc, but I agree with the posters who say that he's not exactly the best in anything, unlike Masch or Alonso. The latter's qualities are indisputable and I believe there's consensus that Alonso's departure hurt us badly last season. Masch leads to a lot of disagreements, generally between people who like a holding DM in the team and people who prefer a more attacking-minded CM in that place. In any case, people would agree that Masch was phenomenal in that DM role, whether such a role was needed in the team or not. I have to disagree with people who said Masch didn't have positional sense. Just because he often charged down opponents does not mean he had poor positional sense; it's just his style of play. He was very often in the right place at the right time, and you can see this very clearly whenever the opposition counter-attacked. Masch was never the fastest, but he often was able to stop the opponent's counterattacks by being reasonably near to cut them out.

But I digress. The point is, Lucas does a lot of things well, and has a bit of everything in his arsenal, but nothing outstanding at the moment. He doesn't score many, like Gerrard. He doesn't have the range of passing, the delivery of set-pieces, like Alonso. And though he is a little more mobile than Alonso, Alonso was more physical, and Alonso had quick feet (which I see in Agger as well) that enabled him to gain the first step on opponents. Lucas also lacks the tenacity of Masch, who tackled well and very rarely got yellow-carded.

I personally think Lucas lacks that little extra to be part of a title-winning Liverpool side. I don't know, but I do hope, he can acquire that little extra. Right now, I think he will gain the most by improving his speed and physicality. That will allow him to burst into space occasionally and widen his own options to distribute the ball. Otherwise, from what I have seen thus far, his distribution is limited by the fact that he is very often too deep and can't get forward fast enough to make more penetrative passes. Not sure if people see what I see, or necessarily agree, but well, just my own thoughts on what I must say is a good player.

Fair post. A balanced argument.

Perhaps this explains, to some extent, my disagreement with others here. Perhaps the issue is that while I still see Liverpool as a 'top club', others have already begun to accept Liverpool as a mediocre club destined for 10th place in the league every year, and perhaps that is why we differ in opinion on the usefulness of Lucas.

[koolkamal]

I did say if he continued to develop though, right now I'd say Masch was the better player too.

But also, Barcelona with Busquets shows that you don't need a specialist player like Masch at the top level. I, like Guardiola apparently, prefer that type of allround player that Lucas and Busquets are, those who doesn't rely on aggression and pace to win the ball back, but by reading the game. They also remain calm in possession and know what they want to do before Masch does - which means the pass they play is more effective and quicker.

I'd love to have that world class spine back too, but if we replaced Meireles with Alonso (or even better Xavi), we'd have it in an instant. That type of playmaker, and a Gerrard in form, is what made us so good, not our defensive midfielder imo. I don't think it would make even close to the same differance if we swaped Lucas for Masch. In fact, I think I'd prefer a Lucas-Xavi midfield instead of a Masch-Xavi one.

Exactly Mascherano may be more of a 'specialist' but depending on the system you're playing you may not need it. Lucas positioning and reading of the game is better than Mascherano - he's hardly ever forced to make those sliding tackles, stays on his feet, tries to win the ball while standing up which can almost immediately turn defence into attack. (Hyppia was a master at reading the game, his positional sense was amazing). Like you mention Barca play better with Buequets than they do with Mascherano - do they even need Mascherano? Most would say no. Lucas is a similar type of player.

You mention Lucas-Xavi would be better than Mascherano-Xavi and I totally agree. (Or Lucas - Aquilani partnership) Which was something I've really wanted to see.

___________________________________________________

Silverbird - next time you watch Lucas - watch how often he makes those bursting runs in to space and see how often you start screaming for the player to pass it to him. He does it every game and every single time the commentator mistakes him for someone else (mostly Kuyt or Torres despite the big 21 on his back).