Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[AJ4Seven]

Fair post. A balanced argument.

Perhaps this explains, to some extent, my disagreement with others here. Perhaps the issue is that while I still see Liverpool as a 'top club', others have already begun to accept Liverpool as a mediocre club destined for 10th place in the league every year, and perhaps that is why we differ in opinion on the usefulness of Lucas.

I can name plenty of midfielders who are worse than Lucas that have won plenty, & plenty who are better who have won fuck all. The problem is some people look at a team as a whole entity, you don't seem to.

[Valery_Karpin]

Let's be honest, people, Barcelona are an exception to most modern rules of football. Most other clubs in Europe go around with a specialist DM and get along just fine. Whilst I'd still consider Busquets a specialist DM, he obviously has Barcelona traits, such as his passing range, his first touch and his lack of true physical talent. Still, look around the rest of Europe and you see a lot of sides that go with specialist DM's. Using Barca as an example is, again, pretty strange, as what they have at their club cannot simply be replicated.

[AJ4Seven]

. Using Barca as an example is, again, pretty strange, as what they have at their club cannot simply be replicated.

Why? Are Barcelona magic?

[JACKO_LFC]

dont rate lucas a tall to be honest, think spearing would be a much better CM regualar, but he is better than poulsen!

[impz]

Let's be honest, people, Barcelona are an exception to most modern rules of football. Most other clubs in Europe go around with a specialist DM and get along just fine. Whilst I'd still consider Busquets a specialist DM, he obviously has Barcelona traits, such as his passing range, his first touch and his lack of true physical talent. Still, look around the rest of Europe and you see a lot of sides that go with specialist DM's. Using Barca as an example is, again, pretty strange, as what they have at their club cannot simply be replicated.

Inter don't, FC Bayern don't and Real don't to name a few top european teams.. heck even United don't..

[koolkamal]

Let's be honest, people, Barcelona are an exception to most modern rules of football. Most other clubs in Europe go around with a specialist DM and get along just fine. Whilst I'd still consider Busquets a specialist DM, he obviously has Barcelona traits, such as his passing range, his first touch and his lack of true physical talent. Still, look around the rest of Europe and you see a lot of sides that go with specialist DM's. Using Barca as an example is, again, pretty strange, as what they have at their club cannot simply be replicated.

Barca are not the exception - they just play really good football. Liverpool use to do the same... there's no suggestion that our team won't be able to play a similar way. If we're going to play a possession based passing and movement type of game then Lucas will be a very important player. Also he has range - I've seen him do it for Brazil plenty times... even for Liverpool, his whole game though is based around keeping possession. Which Barca are the masters at, at the moment but doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be the best either.

Also as mentioned, Inter, Madrid, Mancs, even Arsenal don't play with a specialist defensive midfielder.

[Valery_Karpin]

Why? Are Barcelona magic?

Not magic, but they are the fruits of some of the finest work in football. Over two decades of philosophy, multiple teams at various ages playing 4-3-3, hundreds of players coming in and out at academy level to find and nurture the 'one' to fit in their team. Players like Iniesta, Xavi, Pique, Busquets etc. don't just appear with their talent, they are coached at an exceptionally high level, a unique level that nobody in football can replicate at the moment, IMO. It's all very well and good looking at a distance saying "Barcelona do this, I'd like us to do this", but Barcelona have been working for decades to get to that level, they have their golden age of footballers and no team in Europe can create what they have at the click of a finger. That's why they're in a league of their own, and that's why we'd be better off comparing ourselves to the other top sides in Europe if we're looking for better comparisons, as Barcelona simply cannot be compared to anyone. Call that magic if you want.

[Strummer77]

Fair post. A balanced argument.

Perhaps this explains, to some extent, my disagreement with others here. Perhaps the issue is that while I still see Liverpool as a 'top club', others have already begun to accept Liverpool as a mediocre club destined for 10th place in the league every year, and perhaps that is why we differ in opinion on the usefulness of Lucas.

That sounds like a patronising way of saying 'I'm right'. Even if we rebuilt into a top club I could still see him playing for us. The best reply to this though has already been posted:

I can name plenty of midfielders who are worse than Lucas that have won plenty, & plenty who are better who have won fuck all. The problem is some people look at a team as a whole entity, you don't seem to.

Spot on.

[GrkStav]

dont rate lucas a tall to be honest, think spearing would be a much better CM regualar, but he is better than poulsen!

I told you all, didn't I?

Yes, there are indeed LFC supporters around who actually think that SPEARING would be "a much better CM regular" than Lucas!

Boggles the mind! Defies logic, common sense, etc. But, there it is.

On EDIT: That's just MY opinion, by the way. And nobody is being "shot down" for having a contrary opinion to mine.

[impz]

dont rate lucas a tall to be honest, think spearing would be a much better CM regualar, but he is better than poulsen!

And theres always one.......

[Julio]

I told you all, didn't I?

Yes, there are indeed LFC supporters around who actually think that SPEARING would be "a much better CM regular" than Lucas!

Boggles the mind! Defies logic, common sense, etc. But, there it is.

He is a Scouser though. That makes him better than he actually is. Poor old Lucas can't compete with that.

[Silverbird]

Silverbird - next time you watch Lucas - watch how often he makes those bursting runs in to space and see how often you start screaming for the player to pass it to him. He does it every game and every single time the commentator mistakes him for someone else (mostly Kuyt or Torres despite the big 21 on his back).

I will keep a lookout, but I have noticed some of these runs before. I have also observed the other players passing to him on occasion, but that's precisely the problem with Lucas. I have actually seen him struggle to reach some of these balls. You may blame the passing player, but I think the failure is due to Lucas not being physical or fast enough. At other times, Lucas has fluffed the lines and wasted the opportunity. Unfortunately, Lucas is not a lethal finisher; I think the best epitome of this flaw is the miss against Bolton (end of the first half) when it seemed easier to score than miss.

But the above is not strictly speaking a criticism of Lucas. The point is no player can do everything, and both Alonso and Masch were not prolific scorers either, though Alonso popped up with the occasional spectacular. I can live with a non-scoring Lucas (Roy Keane and Makelele didn't score many either), but Lucas needs to be able to improve his passing even more to increase his contribution to the team. Increasing the number of assists will certainly compensate his lack of scoring.

[Laergoth]

I'm not a Spearing fan, but it's pretty ridiculous how you shoot him down for having an opinion. Spearing performed quite well against Everton and I can totally see why some people would want to replace Lucas with him, as he could probably do the simple job Lucas does while also getting forward more. Neither are good enough for LFC, for me, though I'd argue that Spearing is probably a better CM than Lucas (would need to see at least 10 games of them both this season to confirm it). But to shoot his argument down immediately makes you look pretty ridiculous considering what you think about a player who many consider to be the definition of Average.

[Yorkykopite]

Perhaps the issue is that while I still see Liverpool as a 'top club', others have already begun to accept Liverpool as a mediocre club destined for 10th place in the league every year, and perhaps that is why we differ in opinion on the usefulness of Lucas.

Any Lucas admirers on here who are content with the Reds coming 10th every year?


Thought not. No, you're wrong again pal. 

[Valery_Karpin]

Inter don't, FC Bayern don't and Real don't to name a few top european teams.. heck even United don't..

Just because a player has the ability to pass, it doesn't mean he can't be a specialist DM. Cambiasso is Inter's specialist DM, but he also acts as a deep-lying playmaker. Don't forget Thiago Motta as well. Van Bommel has been Bayern's for years, whilst they've just signed Luiz Gustavo as well. Even Real have Lassana Diarra who they use, whilst Gago is an apparent defensive midfielder, however poor. Khedira plays there, too.

[GrkStav]

I'm not a Spearing fan, but it's pretty ridiculous how you shoot him down for having an opinion. Spearing performed quite well against Everton and I can totally see why some people would want to replace Lucas with him, as he could probably do the simple job Lucas does while also getting forward more. Neither are good enough for LFC, for me, though I'd argue that Spearing is probably a better CM than Lucas (would need to see at least 10 games of them both this season to confirm it). But to shoot his argument down immediately makes you look pretty ridiculous considering what you think about a player who many consider to be the definition of Average.

What do you mean by "shooting down" someone for having an opinion?

I responded to an opinion with, lo and behold, an opinion. People telling me that what I had stated regarding Mascherano and Alonso were not fact but just my opinion was not them "shooting me down" for having an opinion, was it?

My opinion is that the notion that Spearing is a better CM regular than Lucas is outlandish and defies common sense. It still is JUST my opinion.

[AJ4Seven]

Not magic, but they are the fruits of some of the finest work in football. Over two decades of philosophy, multiple teams at various ages playing 4-3-3, hundreds of players coming in and out at academy level to find and nurture the 'one' to fit in their team. Players like Iniesta, Xavi, Pique, Busquets etc. don't just appear with their talent, they are coached at an exceptionally high level, a unique level that nobody in football can replicate at the moment, IMO. It's all very well and good looking at a distance saying "Barcelona do this, I'd like us to do this", but Barcelona have been working for decades to get to that level, they have their golden age of footballers and no team in Europe can create what they have at the click of a finger. That's why they're in a league of their own, and that's why we'd be better off comparing ourselves to the other top sides in Europe if we're looking for better comparisons, as Barcelona simply cannot be compared to anyone. Call that magic if you want.

So there is a system in place at another club(other clubs are run similarly to Barca , not quite with there success though) which out of any club's system has a better chance of prolonged success & you don't wish to follow it because it would take too long?

Now I'm not saying the Barca model can be applied lock, stock & barrel, but  a high possession style is crucial to success(IMO) & for that players like Lucas are also crucial.

[Salty Dog]

Using Barca as an example is, again, pretty strange, as what they have at their club cannot simply be replicated.

But it can be replicated, just not easily.  The football they play is founded on the same principles on which many of the greatest football teams were founded, such as:  Michels' Ajax & Holland, Sacchi's Milan, Cruyff's Barcelona, and most importantly the Liverpool teams of Messrs. Shankly, Paisley, Fagan, and Dalglish.

[Silverbird]

Actually, when I think about it again, maybe Lucas can be part of a title-winning Liverpool side. I mean, United has Fletcher, and there is no question to my mind that Lucas is the better CM (though Fletcher excels at the physical side of the game). Fletcher doesn't create much from what I have seen, but he doesn't need to. Fletcher tidies up and keeps possession, and United turns to other more creative avenues (mostly Nani and Rooney) for assists.

Unfortunately, that's what we are lacking these days. Maxi has shown a lot of promise, but he hasn't often clicked with Torres, and Kuyt, while an incredible workhorse is not exactly the most creative. Perhaps what we need are better wingers and a more creative CM to partner Lucas.

[Laergoth]

I will keep a lookout, but I have noticed some of these runs before. I have also observed the other players passing to him on occasion, but that's precisely the problem with Lucas. I have actually seen him struggle to reach some of these balls. You may blame the passing player, but I think the failure is due to Lucas not being physical or fast enough. At other times, Lucas has fluffed the lines and wasted the opportunity. Unfortunately, Lucas is not a lethal finisher; I think the best epitome of this flaw is the miss against Bolton (end of the first half) when it seemed easier to score than miss.

But the above is not strictly speaking a criticism of Lucas. The point is no player can do everything, and both Alonso and Masch were not prolific scorers either, though Alonso popped up with the occasional spectacular. I can live with a non-scoring Lucas (Roy Keane and Makelele didn't score many either), but Lucas needs to be able to improve his passing even more to increase his contribution to the team. Increasing the number of assists will certainly compensate his lack of scoring.

Would agree with this. Lucas's acceleration is poor. He certainly isn't pacey and it shows when the team are making fluid attacking movements and he fails to get there quite in time. I don't think he's slow, but he's probably one of our least quick players. It's especially his acceleration - which is arguably as bad as Dirk's, though Dirk at least has a powerful maximum speed.

[Sangria]

I will keep a lookout, but I have noticed some of these runs before. I have also observed the other players passing to him on occasion, but that's precisely the problem with Lucas. I have actually seen him struggle to reach some of these balls. You may blame the passing player, but I think the failure is due to Lucas not being physical or fast enough. At other times, Lucas has fluffed the lines and wasted the opportunity. Unfortunately, Lucas is not a lethal finisher; I think the best epitome of this flaw is the miss against Bolton (end of the first half) when it seemed easier to score than miss.

But the above is not strictly speaking a criticism of Lucas. The point is no player can do everything, and both Alonso and Masch were not prolific scorers either, though Alonso popped up with the occasional spectacular. I can live with a non-scoring Lucas (Roy Keane and Makelele didn't score many either), but Lucas needs to be able to improve his passing even more to increase his contribution to the team. Increasing the number of assists will certainly compensate his lack of scoring.

That's Lucas's single biggest weakness, his finishing. I described it as lack of conviction, a lack of belief that he's going to score after he's got into a good position to do so. That, I think, can hardly be denied. I've further speculated that he might be a thinking footballer like Kuyt, rather than an instinctual one. I don't know whether that's true or not for Lucas (although it seems to be true for Kuyt from what I can see). I really don't know why he keeps missing, but he keeps getting into good positions, and he keeps missing. I'll wait for someone with greater knowledge of penalty area football to do a better analysis than I can, but meanwhile, I'll defer to Shankly's comment about Roger Hunt.

[Valery_Karpin]

Barca are not the exception - they just play really good football. Liverpool use to do the same... there's no suggestion that our team won't be able to play a similar way. If we're going to play a possession based passing and movement type of game then Lucas will be a very important player. Also he has range - I've seen him do it for Brazil plenty times... even for Liverpool, his whole game though is based around keeping possession. Which Barca are the masters at, at the moment but doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be the best either.

Also as mentioned, Inter, Madrid, Mancs, even Arsenal don't play with a specialist defensive midfielder.

He won't, though, that's the thing. Lucas wouldn't be important, because all he would be is the holding player who gives it to our Xavi or Iniesta. The ability to just play good football doesn't happen like that, any coach who plays the game will know you can't just get your team playing Barcelona's football. If Barcelona never had Xavi or Iniesta, they probably wouldn't be able to play like they do. Those two players - products of their academy that have been raised playing this way - are able to convert the vision on the pitch, as that is all they know. You couldn't get players like Lucas playing like Xavi or Iniesta, players like Lucas couldn't get our team anywhere near to the style of football Barcelona play.

As for the other two teams that don't play with a specialist DM, Fletcher is United's (although he does break forward on occasions), he is their ball winner, he is their most defensive midfielder, whilst Arsenal have Song (although Wenger continues to give him offensive freedom, when he probably shouldn't).

[impz]

Just because a player has the ability to pass, it doesn't mean he can't be a specialist DM. Cambiasso is Inter's specialist DM, but he also acts as a deep-lying playmaker. Don't forget Thiago Motta as well. Van Bommel has been Bayern's for years, whilst they've just signed Luiz Gustavo as well. Even Real have Lassana Diarra who they use, whilst Gago is an apparent defensive midfielder, however poor. Khedira plays there, too.

None of those players you mentioned is a specialist DM with the exception of L. Diarra

[GrkStav]

This thread is becoming (and I have contributed, myself) less and less about "Why we should keep Lucas" and more and more about completely different topics.

[Laergoth]

Actually, when I think about it again, maybe Lucas can be part of a title-winning Liverpool side. I mean, United has Fletcher, and there is no question to my mind that Lucas is the better CM (though Fletcher excels at the physical side of the game). Fletcher doesn't create much from what I have seen, but he doesn't need to. Fletcher tidies up and keeps possession, and United turns to other more creative avenues (mostly Nani and Rooney) for assists.

I disagree with this. Fletcher is actually fairly creative and weighs in with some goals. He is both more physical and more creative than Lucas.

Last season:

Darren Fletcher

Started 29 league games. 4 goals, 5 assists.

Lucas Leiva

Started 32 league games. 0 goals, 2 assists.

[Laergoth]

Also, it doesn't help to be defining Lucas as a CM, when it is clear that most of his play is in his own half. That either means he's been told to play in the DM spot, or he's doing it by his own accord. Either way, he plays far too deep to be defined as a CM. Everything about his play suggests DM, and if he's trying to be a CM, then he's doing it wrong.

[Valery_Karpin]

So there is a system in place at another club(other clubs are run similarly to Barca , not quite with there success though) which out of any club's system has a better chance of prolonged success & you don't wish to follow it because it would take too long?

Now I'm not saying the Barca model can be applied lock, stock & barrel, but  a high possession style is crucial to success(IMO) & for that players like Lucas are also crucial.

Of course I want us to replicate it, but we couldn't just do it at the drop of a hat. We'd start it off in the academy, but in the first team we'd have to gradually mold a team that can play that type of football, adapt to that kind of formation, whilst the style is something that would have to be gradually brought in, not immediately. Still, if we were to have a player that would be crucial to pass and move, it would be a player like Fabregas, or another type of 'playmaker general'. Lucas simply isn't a playmaker, hence why I don't feel he'd be of significant importance to the pass and move style. He'd be important to balance and shape, but his passing now barely affects how we play, so picturing him holding the strings whilst we attempt to play Total Football would be, quite simply, farcical.

[Sangria]

Any Lucas admirers on here who are content with the Reds coming 10th every year?


Thought not. No, you're wrong again pal. 

I'm a Lucas admirer who judges Liverpool teams by the standard of the 87-88 team. I'm content with winning the title, but I won't be fully satisfied until it's won with the style of that team. And I think Lucas would have fitted easily into that team, and probably been picked by the manager ahead of Molby in some games, if Dalglish's actual selections back then were any guide. For example, the inclusion of Lucas would have improved the side that beat Forest 5-0, and not just because of modern fitness standards.

[AJ4Seven]

I disagree with this. Fletcher is actually fairly creative and weighs in with some goals. He is both more physical and more creative than Lucas.

Last season:

Darren Fletcher

Started 29 league games. 4 goals, 5 assists.

Lucas Leiva

Started 32 league games. 0 goals, 2 assists.

Manchester Utd. scored 86 goals last season, we scored 61.

[Salty Dog]

Would agree with this. Lucas's acceleration is poor. He certainly isn't pacey and it shows when the team are making fluid attacking movements and he fails to get there quite in time. I don't think he's slow, but he's probably one of our least quick players. It's especially his acceleration - which is arguably as bad as Dirk's, though Dirk at least has a powerful maximum speed.

Dalglish is the greatest player in the history of our club (Gerrard also enters the debate, but that's beside the point I wish to make).  He was not pacey either.  It's about speed of thought.  The old expression "the first 5 yards are in the mind."

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing Lucas to Dalglish.  I'm just saying that pace is a poor barometer to use to judge whether a player is good or not.  Pace is a great asset for any footballer.  But pace or a lack thereof is only one attribute amongst the many which different footballers possess.  Riquelme and Zidane, undoubtedly great players, were far from pacey as well.

[GrkStav]

So, in summary:

Lucas is not really a CM. He is really a DM. And not a very good one at that.

He may actually be worse than Spearing, even as DM, but certainly as CM.

Corollary: Rafa Benitez, Dunga, Menenez, Roy and Dalglish are either 1. Fools (which may apply to Roy, mind) or 2. had no other option but to use Lucas regularly (and Dunga did, except for the last WC).

[Valery_Karpin]

None of those players you mentioned is a specialist DM with the exception of L. Diarra

So Cambiasso isn't a specialist defensive midfield player? I ask you, in complete honesty, have you ever seen Esteban play? He has great ability, but he only ever players in front of the Inter defence, with the odd roam into the box, but that doesn't mean he isn't a specialist DM. Cambiasso is as classic a DM as you will find, he epitomizes all of the attributes of a defensive midfielder, then adds some onto it, but he is still an absolute defensive midfield player. A similar player to that would be Daniele de Rossi, who is first and foremost a defensive midfielder, but still has great ability, both passing-wise and shooting-wise. He is a specialist DM, but he does have other attributes, too. Khedira, again, plays mostly as a ball-winner, but he still sits in the midfield next to Alonso and anchors the play. Just because some players have a different style, or some players have added extras, like playmaking abilities or goalscoring abilities, doesn't mean they aren't a specialist defensive midfield player, it just means they are asked to do more from our manager, whereas Mascherano never was in his time here, until his final season.

[Laergoth]

So, in summary:

Lucas is not really a CM. He is really a DM. And not a very good one at that.

He may actually be worse than Spearing, even as DM, but certainly as CM.

Corollary: Rafa Benitez, Dunga, Menenez, Roy and Dalglish are either 1. Fools (which may apply to Roy, mind) or 2. had no other option but to use Lucas regularly (and Dunga did, except for the last WC).

Fair comment. Some people insist on defining Lucas as a CM so, in some posts, I'm having to debate on the pretense of Lucas being one. But, in my opinion, he is a DM.

So, it's probably unfair to compare Spearing, who is a CM, and Lucas, who is a DM. But some people just keep on calling Lucas a CM.

[Valery_Karpin]

Corollary: Rafa Benitez, Dunga, Menenez, Roy and Dalglish are either 1. Fools (which may apply to Roy, mind) or 2. had no other option but to use Lucas regularly (and Dunga did, except for the last WC).

For argument's sake, what did/have any of these coaches achieved by making Lucas a regular? Whilst Dunga only ever had Lucas as a regular for his squad, but never a regular in his team.

[Mutton Geoff]

It's more like this:

The players who (I believe) are shite in our team should be seen to be shite. Otherwise, it is potentially to the detriment of the club.

I would love for Lucas to do well. I just think it's insane to label him as one of our best players, when everything he does smacks "Mediocrity".

If anything, ridiculing him and pointing out his mediocrity is the necessary antidote to those wildly distorting him as our best player.

But I have to say, he has mastered the Powder-Puff Header technique.

2 flaws in your theory how about if people feel your opinion is shite, and also they accurately think that you are on some one man witch hunt to attract some sort of weird kudos in here.

finally as Lucas is clearly not shite your theory is bogus anyway.

[Sangria]

2 flaws in your theory how about if people feel your opinion is shite, and also they accurately think that you are on some one man witch hunt to attract some sort of weird kudos in here.

finally as Lucas is clearly not shite your theory is bogus anyway.

"You'll neeever walk alone
But I'll do my best to change that"

[Laergoth]

Corollary: Rafa Benitez, Dunga, Menenez, Roy and Dalglish are either 1. Fools (which may apply to Roy, mind) or 2. had no other option but to use Lucas regularly (and Dunga did, except for the last WC).

Dunga did not use Lucas regularly, by the way. Only in the Olympics, which is more of a youth tournament than anything. Lucas played absolutely no part in Brazil's qualification for the World Cup.

[scatman]

Mr Karpin, your wrong about Khedira and about Cambiasso, both get into the box a lot, if they were defensive midfielders sitting deep they wouldnt. Khedira was actually further forward than Schweinsteiger in nearly every single game at the World Cup, would you describe Schweinsteiger as a defensive midfielder?

[Salty Dog]

Dunga did not use Lucas regularly, by the way. Only in the Olympics, which is more of a youth tournament than anything. Lucas played absolutely no part in Brazil's qualification for the World Cup.

Except that he played in 2 qualifiers.

[scatman]

I'm not a Spearing fan, but it's pretty ridiculous how you shoot him down for having an opinion. Spearing performed quite well against Everton and I can totally see why some people would want to replace Lucas with him, as he could probably do the simple job Lucas does while also getting forward more. Neither are good enough for LFC, for me, though I'd argue that Spearing is probably a better CM than Lucas (would need to see at least 10 games of them both this season to confirm it). But to shoot his argument down immediately makes you look pretty ridiculous considering what you think about a player who many consider to be the definition of Average.

Arguing that the lad who played a full game yet did not attempt a single tackle on his premiership debut is better than Lucas at CM is a tall order, and I'd like to see it. I love a little laugh here and there.

Oh and also you neglect that Lucas played in 2 qualifiers.... but I guess they weren't competitive games and Dunga must have wanted to pick Luke, not Lucas. Must have gone senile for a day.