Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[redgriffin73]

Hopper will book him so he will get a touchline ban for the Wolves game

I was sure Tierney would find a way to send him off on Sunday just out of spite.

[mikey_LFC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3g8ejvezv3o

Stuff like this is really poor, in my opinion. How can a panel be so split on so many incident, and how can we be in a situation where they can vote a decision as wrong but say it shouldn’t be overturned? Does any other sport have situations like this, where a decision is deemed too subjective to overturn?

I think as a sport we need to move towards more clearly defined rules that eliminate the subjectivity, or at least have a group of officials trained to overcome their natural perspective to ensure as a group they can officiate consistently. That is surely what their training should be about, and we shouldn’t have to rely on the whims of each referee to determine the rules.

[redgriffin73]

Are we the only country to use C&O as a thing? It really needs fucking off.

[mikey_LFC]

Are we the only country to use C&O as a thing? It really needs fucking off.

The whole idea is ridiculous. It comes from people not wanting the game to be re-referee’d but the VAR is just another assistant for the ref with more info. VAR making a call is just like the linesman putting up their flag, or the fourth official letting the ref know about an incident they’ve missed. They should just work as a team, and come to the right decision with all the information at their disposal.

Also, the VAR should be able to be used on all decisions, but it doesn’t need to be the whole big ceremony that’s around it now, they can just say, “That corner should be a goal kick.” And the ref can correct their call, before the set piece is taken. It takes seconds to check these things, shorter than set pieces generally take.

It comes down to the referees not sharing the same opinion on decisions, when they should be able to trust that their colleague on the VAR is making the decision they would with the same information. If there’s that distrust and difference, then something in the system is wrong.

Either the ref should simply be able to hold the play when the VAR suspect a decision is wrong, or we should do away with it and just put up with on the field decisions, because having someone with multiple angles and plenty of time make bad decisions due to a not clear and obvious defence is maddening. If we do the latter then we can just wait until technology improves to give clear decisions in aspects, like goal-line technology and the developing automated offside that could come in at some point.

Rewriting the rules for the new age to add clarity seems the place to start, beginning with what constitutes handball, what frame should be used for offsides and what level of force/intent is necessary for a foul? Something as simple as saying, only deliberate handballs are to be given as fouls when below the shoulder, whereas all handballs above the shoulder are a foul, with pictures/videos of the handballs deemed to be deliberate, below the shoulder, and a clear line drawn to show what constitutes above the shoulder. The whole, natural body shape line is just more subjective wording that is unnecessary.

[BoRed]

Are we the only country to use C&O as a thing? It really needs fucking off.

"The ref got it wrong, but VAR was right not to intervene."

That short sentence perfectly sums up how stupid the whole thing is.

[JRed]

"The ref got it wrong, but VAR was right not to intervene."

That short sentence perfectly sums up how stupid the whole thing is.

Yep. It’s also their get out clause to do whatever the fuck they want.

[Fromola]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3g8ejvezv3o

Stuff like this is really poor, in my opinion. How can a panel be so split on so many incident, and how can we be in a situation where they can vote a decision as wrong but say it shouldn’t be overturned? Does any other sport have situations like this, where a decision is deemed too subjective to overturn?

I think as a sport we need to move towards more clearly defined rules that eliminate the subjectivity, or at least have a group of officials trained to overcome their natural perspective to ensure as a group they can officiate consistently. That is surely what their training should be about, and we shouldn’t have to rely on the whims of each referee to determine the rules.

Because it's the nature of football - decisions are so subjective. Especially on penalty decisions. One of the things that makes VAR unworkable.

[Knight]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3g8ejvezv3o

Stuff like this is really poor, in my opinion. How can a panel be so split on so many incident, and how can we be in a situation where they can vote a decision as wrong but say it shouldn’t be overturned? Does any other sport have situations like this, where a decision is deemed too subjective to overturn?

I think as a sport we need to move towards more clearly defined rules that eliminate the subjectivity, or at least have a group of officials trained to overcome their natural perspective to ensure as a group they can officiate consistently. That is surely what their training should be about, and we shouldn’t have to rely on the whims of each referee to determine the rules.

Much of the rule book is inherently subjective. That’s how football rules work much of the time. Referees are asked to use their judgement. The solution, as it’s been for years, is to bin VAR for many of the things we currently use it for. We won’t improve the state of officiating but we will improve the experience of both playing and watching.

[mikey_LFC]

Because it's the nature of football - decisions are so subjective. Especially on penalty decisions. One of the things that makes VAR unworkable.

I think that’s just a lazy cliché. It’s only the nature of football because the rules are poorly written.

Much of the rule book is inherently subjective. That’s how football rules work much of the time. Referees are asked to use their judgement. The solution, as it’s been for years, is to bin VAR for many of the things we currently use it for. We won’t improve the state of officiating but we will improve the experience of both playing and watching.

Binning VAR is only a partial solution. The rule book being subjective is still a problem whichever route we go down. I don’t agree it’s an inherent issue though. It’s just a historical one.

[Knight]

I think that’s just a lazy cliché. It’s only the nature of football because the rules are poorly written.

Binning VAR is only a partial solution. The rule book being subjective is still a problem whichever route we go down. I don’t agree it’s an inherent issue though. It’s just a historical one.

Yeah interesting. I think I’d probably argue that officiating by judgment, and those playing accepting the authority of the ref to adjudicate based on his judgment, is inherent not just to the rule book but to the nature of the game itself. But I’d have to think through how to articulate it clearly!

[mikey_LFC]

Yeah interesting. I think I’d probably argue that officiating by judgment, and those playing accepting the authority of the ref to adjudicate based on his judgment, is inherent not just to the rule book but to the nature of the game itself. But I’d have to think through how to articulate it clearly!

I understand where you’re coming from and agree to an extent. In my mind, it’s similar to how football is evolving. A footballer can play on instinct and do well in that regard, or they can be coached away from their instincts so that they operate as a team, as we see Guardiola do so often. Whilst, I’d rather watch footballers in the first category, I’d prefer referees in the second, since the second is designed to increase the order in a system and reduce variation in outcome.

The way I see it, you’d want the PGMOL acting like one big bald hive mind with complete understanding of the rules with a single interpretation achieved through training. The human element is understanding the lapses away from this where instinct takes over but in general, the process should increase consistency.

In general, I think there’s loads that can be done to improve relations between refs, teams and supporters with many of the problems stemming from legacy issues. For instance, I think there’s a conversation to be had around whether the penalty box is the right shape and whether it’s current shape causes problems due to a discrepancy between punishment and crime, as it were. These conversations don’t seem to happen though, and the lack of evolution in these areas eventually causes quite a large issue.

[JRed]

Maybe the rules need to be made clearer? I’ll start:

Kick someone in chest in penalty area - Penalty.
Play basketball in own area - Penalty
Score an onside goal with no foul in build up - Goal
Ball in play and goal keeper throws ball onto ground inviting attacker to try to score - Play on
Goal keeper charges out of goal feet first, and snaps opponent in half - Red card

It’s really not that difficult.

[mikey_LFC]

Maybe the rules need to be made clearer? I’ll start:

Kick someone in chest in penalty area - Penalty.
Play basketball in own area - Penalty
Score an onside goal with no foul in build up - Goal
Ball in play and goal keeper throws ball onto ground inviting attacker to try to score - Play on
Goal keeper charges out of goal feet first, and snaps opponent in half - Red card

It’s really not that difficult.

No doubt there are blatant blunders, often against us, but they are only one issue, and there is a greater problem than that with teams / supporters constantly frustrated throughout the game, and in every game. Plus the nonsense around clear and obvious provides a get out to refs in all areas. Removes any accountability.

[JRed]

No doubt there are blatant blunders, often against us, but they are only one issue, and there is a greater problem than that with teams / supporters constantly frustrated throughout the game, and in every game.

It’s a starting point.
If they can’t/ don’t want to get them decisions right then there’s no chance with the other ones and the lot of them need fucking off.
They have deliberately caused so much confusion so they can do whatever the fuck they want and gaslight their way out of it.

[wenlock]

It should have been such a simple thing. We had rules that had stood the test of time and were not really broken but they fixed them anyway and here we are.

All they had to do was copy other sports and use tv to rid us of the odd howler but here we are.

Refs simply have too much influence on games now and are looking more corrupt then incompetant. It should be pretty much impossible to come to some of the decisions they have with tv helping them. What are the appologists seeing moments or hours later at pmgol that a team of various officials (close to 10 now?) cant see with the help of multiple screens in a purpose built VAR hub?

When they spend over 5 mins pouring over something and still get it wrong! When they abandon logical things and replace with problematic things, like goalkicks needing to be kicked outside the 18 yard box which causes a 'schoolboy error' being ignored by a ref in a chaps league game. It is not his job to do that it's his job to applt the rules evenly and fairly and it's the players jobs to make sure they don't do any schoolboy errors.

Same thing with the recent stupidety in our game from Taylor, it was his job to ref the game and not save the goalkeepers blunder.

So many silly rule tweaks over recent years. If players are abusing a rule then punish them ffs, should be easier now with tv. Like the head injuries rule, like holding at corners, like feigning injury, like waving imaginary cards. Offsides are stupid with rules that change depending on the teams concerned. Subs coming on also plays taps in to that depends on the teams involved vibe too. Sometimes a match seems to pause while a sub gets stripped (why?) and then comes on while others have players being hurried off to save time.

I thought the whole point of pro refs was to make things better but they can't even train them to a similar standard, so consitency is much more erratic. A simple example of that was a few weeks back man city played arsenal and I think we played brighton. Anyway the point is that our game has a ref giving any contact as a foul while their game had a cage match feel with a missing ref.

The knock on affect is/was some teams don't pick up cards as often as they should while others get them when they shouldn't.

It should have been such a simple thing.

[tray fenny]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3g8ejvezv3o

Stuff like this is really poor, in my opinion. How can a panel be so split on so many incident, and how can we be in a situation where they can vote a decision as wrong but say it shouldn’t be overturned? Does any other sport have situations like this, where a decision is deemed too subjective to overturn?

I think as a sport we need to move towards more clearly defined rules that eliminate the subjectivity, or at least have a group of officials trained to overcome their natural perspective to ensure as a group they can officiate consistently. That is surely what their training should be about, and we shouldn’t have to rely on the whims of each referee to determine the rules.

good post

[stoa]

The whole idea is ridiculous. It comes from people not wanting the game to be re-referee’d but the VAR is just another assistant for the ref with more info. VAR making a call is just like the linesman putting up their flag, or the fourth official letting the ref know about an incident they’ve missed. They should just work as a team, and come to the right decision with all the information at their disposal.

The problem with that "C&O"-approach is that it doesn't avoid re-refereeing the game, it's the complete opposite. With the way PGMOL are approaching this whole thing, the VAR is essentially making the decision in most cases. He's re-refereeing the game. He's the one saying "A kick in the chest is not a penalty, because both players go in high". It's not the ref making the decision based on all the facts, it's the VAR saying "The ref was right" or "The ref was wrong". That's what I don't get about this whole thing and how this isn't pointed out in the media.

The approach you're describing is the one I want to see (and is also the one that seems to be the intention in the VAR protocol). The VAR should be part of the team and provide the ref with enough information to make a call. The way VAR is used at the moment, it's not. That's why we haven't heard sentences like "Mate, Odegaard's hand never was on the floor, it looks more like he's using it to deflect the ball, maybe you should take another look at it" or "I'm not sure it's just two players coming together competing for a ball, Doku's leg is dangerously high and he hits MacAllister in the chest. I suggest you take a look yourself". At the moment, the communication is basically "Delay, delay, delay, checking a possible penalty" then the folks in the VAR-room talk amongst themselves and then it's "Check complete". It's just so wrong.

[tray fenny]

The whole idea is ridiculous. It comes from people not wanting the game to be re-referee’d but the VAR is just another assistant for the ref with more info. VAR making a call is just like the linesman putting up their flag, or the fourth official letting the ref know about an incident they’ve missed. They should just work as a team, and come to the right decision with all the information at their disposal.

Also, the VAR should be able to be used on all decisions, but it doesn’t need to be the whole big ceremony that’s around it now, they can just say, “That corner should be a goal kick.” And the ref can correct their call, before the set piece is taken. It takes seconds to check these things, shorter than set pieces generally take.

It comes down to the referees not sharing the same opinion on decisions, when they should be able to trust that their colleague on the VAR is making the decision they would with the same information. If there’s that distrust and difference, then something in the system is wrong.

Either the ref should simply be able to hold the play when the VAR suspect a decision is wrong, or we should do away with it and just put up with on the field decisions, because having someone with multiple angles and plenty of time make bad decisions due to a not clear and obvious defence is maddening. If we do the latter then we can just wait until technology improves to give clear decisions in aspects, like goal-line technology and the developing automated offside that could come in at some point.

Rewriting the rules for the new age to add clarity seems the place to start, beginning with what constitutes handball, what frame should be used for offsides and what level of force/intent is necessary for a foul? Something as simple as saying, only deliberate handballs are to be given as fouls when below the shoulder, whereas all handballs above the shoulder are a foul, with pictures/videos of the handballs deemed to be deliberate, below the shoulder, and a clear line drawn to show what constitutes above the shoulder. The whole, natural body shape line is just more subjective wording that is unnecessary.

again on the money

[RyanBabel19]

IMO There is one and literally only one way VAR could work...

Referees drop the ego and mission to prove themselves right and just make decisions for the good of the game. Clear and obvious has always been a way to protect officials long held belief that they always know better and are above question. The whole system is set up so that they cannot be questioned and the whataboutery and mental gymnastics make for a 'anything but admitting we need to be a lot better' type of stance.

Give an apology that fixes nothing, 'by the letter of the law' , 'he's used his common sense', dont want VAR to re-referee games, the ref cant win there... I could go on

Were they to have an approach in which decisions are looked and and correctly swiftly 'Andy you've called a goal kick, it actually hit the defender on the way out, it should be a corner' as an example, things would run so swiftly.

They spend too much time begging for sympathy and looking down on the rest of us like we haven't got a clue. There's always an excuse and consistency is what people often expect most. Weekly we see insane calls and it changes so often it's actually crazy. What's handball and a penalty today will be 'the arm was in a natural position' the following week.

They should sit down with a panel WEEKLY after each round of games, go through the decisions and analyse how they can improve consistency and decision making taking into account both the laws of the game and common sense in certain situations. Too much focus is on making themselves look good instead of just admitting fault and looking to correct it for the good of the game.

[JRed]

Mike Dean on soccer Saturday showed a glimpse of their attitude. When talking about the ‘offside’ at spurs to Merson. Just kept shouting ‘it’s the law it’s the law, you don’t know what you’re talking about, you’re just a player’ 
Arrogant little twats who thrive on the authority and power of deciding football matches.