Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...

[Cochise]

What a waste of a ticket. My 16 yo cousins went to that final and said it was the best days of their lives. Also went the FA cup final and loved that too despite the result.

[Henry Gale]

to be honest I don't think getting 4th and winning the CC would have kept Kenny in his job.

Next season though I can see FSG saying 3rd is a minimum target for this club. 

They can want it but unless they throw £100m into the team it won't happen regardless of who they hire as the manager.

[NorthamptonKopite]

to be honest I don't think getting 4th and winning the CC would have kept Kenny in his job.

Next season though I can see FSG saying 3rd is a minimum target for this club. 

You don't think getting 4th and winning the CC would've kept Kenny his job?

Unbelievable.

[Shannon]

They can want it but unless they throw £100m into the team it won't happen regardless of who they hire as the manager.

The shittest Chelsea team in recent history just won the Champions League. Anything is possible.

[Cochise]

You don't think getting 4th and winning the CC would've kept Kenny his job?

Unbelievable.

Why? I don't think FSG had fully confidence in Kenny. You need the full confidence of the board behind you.

[ziggyy]

For practicality and long term success, at least 4th place for the potential to get into the Cash League.

Like it or not, the extra money and international reach of the CL will attract better quality players.

[Alan_X]

I do struggle with this debate.  In truth we shouldn't have to choose between the two as we should be capable of challenging on multiple fronts.

You're absolutely correct. My point is that starting out the season with the aim of getting fourth, is meaningless as soon as the first game kicks off. To quote the old phrase:

'No plan survives the first engagement with the enemy'. In other words tactical and strategic flexibility is fundamental in a changing campaign. If you get knocked out of the cups early you can focus more on the league, but by the same token, injuries or loss of for might put paid to chances of doing well in the league.

Start out the season with a view to doing your best in every competition but as at most, only five teams can win a trophy there's no point starting out concentrating on just one. And as six or seven teams can now realistically compete for the Champions League spots it's a brave manager who puts all his eggs in that one basket from the off.

'Arry's aim was to get back into the top four and in the end it was a phyrric victory.

We need to be able to compete on all fronts not have to pick and choose.

[ziggyy]

The shittest Chelsea team in recent history just won the Champions League. Anything is possible.

We won it with an even shitter team in 05...

That was real special.

[helmboy_nige]

The shittest Chelsea team in recent history just won the Champions League. Anything is possible.

Roberto di Matteo it is then!  Oh and a black magic expert.

[Alan_X]

The shittest Chelsea team in recent history just won the Champions League. Anything is possible.

So are there two camps here?... they're the shittest Chelsea team in recent history or they bought the Cup by buying the best players?...

[John C]

Simples, a cup run and winning cups is fucking boss, how many clubs were as envious as fuck watching us win and parade that trophy round Wembley - clubs would love to experience it.

Its all about winning shiny things.

[12Kings]

So are there two camps here?... they're the shittest Chelsea team in recent history or they bought the Cup by buying the best players?...

Or they just got lucky because their far superior opponents had a bad day at the office in front of goal.

[Alan_X]

Its all about winning shiny things.

Signature heaven

[shelovesyou]

The argument for 4th is clearly CL and its a means to an end, more income, better ability to get players to join, ergo better team for the next season. Not quite as simple as that but you get the idea.
And of course, winning the cups, its what we all dream of, lifting the cup at Wembley.
The game has changed, sadly its economical now, and unless we start to accept this, rightly or wrongly, we will fall behind further.
These are the harsh realities of the game, I dont like it, not many do, but do we sink or swim ?

Interesting article in the Independant today, regarding the Shankly quotes in Melwood, and how its a complete contradiction to what Ayre and the club seem to be portraying.

[12Kings]

Simples, a cup run and winning cups is fucking boss, how many clubs were as envious as fuck watching us win and parade that trophy round Wembley - clubs would love to experience it.

Its all about winning shiny things.

And coming 8th in the premier league (close 9th only for gd) is fucking boss! .. Oh wait....

[Shannon]

Roberto di Matteo it is then!  Oh and a black magic expert.

I don't mean that, outside Man City I don't think there is a hell of a lot between the other 6-7 teams, between some teams losing key players and other teams buying players who hit the ground running there is every chance we can get a CL spot.

[Alan_X]

And coming 8th in the premier league (close 9th only for gd) is fucking boss! .. Oh wait....

The classic 'point missed by a country mile' post...  winning things is boss, playing in Europe is boss, winning as many games as you can is boss.

No twat aims for eight place.

[kennedy81]

Way too much is being made of this 4th or carling cup argument,
and way too much is being made of what Ayre said the other day.

I read his statement as meaning, he wants LFC to be able to compete on all fronts, and we need to be aiming for CL places if we are to do that.
I think that should be obvious to anyone.
Teams that finish 8th in the league, don't normally compete in 2 cup finals in a season

He was also defending his position, with regards the sacking of Kenny despite the CC win, that a CC win is not enough if we are also finishing 8th in the league.
That should also be obvious to anyone, whether you think Kenny should have been sacked or not.
He was dismissing the CC cup win as a sign of progress, not dismissing it outright or its importance to the fans.

[12Kings]

Quote from: John C on Today at 02:27:53 PM
Its all about winning shiny things.

It's all about winning bigger shiny things.

[soxfan]

Kenny got sacked having garnered 52 points in the league, the single worst points tally of the modern era after one of the biggest summer spends in our history which came after one of the biggest January spends in our history.

Correct. Kenny was never given a "finish fourth or you're fired" ultimatum this season, but the hysteria-makers here won't ever admit that.

If you don't finish at least 4th most years, you won't attract the world's best players. If you don't attract the world's best players you won't win the Premier League, and you will never qualify to win the Champions League.

[lukas]

Cup everytime its what I look forward to as a fan, great days out, that feeling of being in a Final is what its all about.

Simple.

[12Kings]

The classic 'point missed by a country mile' post...  winning things is boss, playing in Europe is boss, winning as many games as you can is boss.

No twat aims for eight place.

It didn't look like we were really aiming for anything in the league after the carling cup final really. It might as well been the last few games of the season.

[CraigDS]

This isn't the case all the time unless you're suggesting someone outside of the top 4 will always win the CL?

[kdorg]

It's virtually the same only one gives you an ugly, embarassing, Disney sponsored silver trophy that nobody really wants. Then you have to spend days, even weeks thinking on where to hide it so nobody ever reminds you of the embarassement.

It's all about winning bigger shiny things.

so you are saying size does matter.

[shelovesyou]

It didn't look like we were really aiming for anything in the league after the carling cup final really. It might as well been the last few games of the season.

Up until the Arsenal match we were still in with a very good shout of 4th, the players however took their foot off the gas, they became too complacent, and to an extent that was inevitable because of their youth and in-experience.
It all went tits after that.

[steveeastend]

Both, and the F.A. cup. and the euro league or any competition we are in. Cause football is all about that, competition and trying to win. In addition, the CL is important financially but that´s not the point of being a football club in the first place.

The point is to try to win every game, the next one. That´s why I was very unhappy with the attitude of the players at the end of the season. Just picking games by the importance is not good enough. Just as a long term strategy without any sight of being competitive eonugh for the next game, the next season.

 

[scoresagain]

We should be aiming for both, there is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be competing on all fronts. I see getting into the Champions League as a foundation from which you can build a more successful team.
Also I think saying 'Fourth or the Carling Cup' is the wrong question, it should be 'Top 4 or the Carling Cup?' Nobody aims for fourth, that's ludicrous, you start a league campaign wanting to win it.

[Alan_X]

Corrected for you:

It's all about winning shiny things.

He was right first time. We should aim to win everything we can and expect the owners to provide the necessary resources to achieve that. What's bizarre is that three are people slinging around words like mediocrity and mid-table who have lower aspirations than I do. I don't want to be a club like Spurs, who have a good 45 minutes in Milan and fuck off winning things to get another season of under-achievement with the big teams.

[kennedy81]

Interesting article in the Independant today, regarding the Shankly quotes in Melwood, and how its a complete contradiction to what Ayre and the club seem to be portraying.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/the-last-word-shankly-spirit-is-reduced-to-a-mere-ghost-7768770.html

didn't care much for that piece to be honest.

That (Liverpool) family is dysfunctional, splintered by corporate brutality, doomed romanticism, emotional incontinence and institutionalised ignorance.

the rest of the piece is an over the top, very one-sided view, of a far more complex narrative.

[TheEru]

Someone wrote this on rawk the other day (not sure who it was). But it sums it up for me:

Those were the days my friends
We finished 4th no ends
We’ve done 3rd
And 2nd, the novelty
We’ve fought for mediocrity
And financial security
Those were the days
oh yes those were the days.....

[Alan_X]

We should be aiming for both, there is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be competing on all fronts. I see getting into the Champions League as a foundation from which you can build a more successful team.

Lack of a stadium, no director of football, no CEO...

Also I think saying 'Fourth or the Carling Cup' is the wrong question, it should be 'Top 4 or the Carling Cup?' Nobody aims for fourth, that's ludicrous, you start a league campaign wanting to win it.

That wouldn't make a lot of sense though would it? The only reason for the thread is because Chelsea won last night creating the situation where a team who focussed solely on league position to get Champions League football (at the expense of trophies) are left in exactly the same position as if they had won the Carling Cup...

Do you think 'Arry really believed he was going to win the league?

[Cream147]

Come on now ffs, your now happy with Liverpool fc not challenging for the league title and being competitive in the league over winning the smallest cup competition in england?
 I went that final and I have to say, I was underwhelmed, I honestly don't know what all the fuss was about, it was as if we hadn't won any silverware in 50 years. Also the manner in which we won it, Cardiff city, going to penalties...
 We need to be in Europe for lots of reasons, for me it's competing with the best teams in the land for the biggest trophy in world football only bettered by the world cup. It's where Liverpool belongs, we've won it how many times now? But by saying you would rather win the carling cup above being 4th, your effectively saying your happy competing with the likes of fulham and sunderland, Swansea.... Wigan. Instead of are old rivals, we have competed with since the days of old for the title of best team in England.

4th place isn't challenging for the title though. So you would've rather we were massive also-runs this season like Spurs, rather than actually winners of silverware. If you're underwhelmed by us winning silverware, then what are you doing supporting a football club really? That day is what it's all about. Note that the JPT and FA Trophy are smaller cup competitions, as well as the Community Shield. The ultimate aim is of course to win absolutely everything we can. However, we can't always have it all. I'd much rather have had our season than Spurs', that's for sure.

[Anthony]

What gets me about this whole conversation is the idea that they had to be mutually exclusive. We could and should have qualified for the Champions League this season

We ended up 18 points behind Arsenal in Third Place. If we had managed to get at least a point against them the week after the Carling Cup we would only have needed to get those 18 points to finish ahead of Spurs.

So forget about the rest of the Season, if we had managed to avoid defeat against Arsenal and get victories from these 6 matches alone

Sunderland (a)
QPR (a)
Wigan (H)
WBA (H)
Fulham (H)
Swansea (a)

(or win 5, draw 1 and convert the draw against Aston Villa into a win)

we would not need to be having this conversation as we would have come Third. That's frustrating!

[litmanen37]

our worst league season in around 50 years and one of our lowest points tallys (at home) in almost forever with an 8th place finish (our worst in the premier league) on joint points with fulham and below the likes of everton and newcastle......with a carling cup win

OR

4th place


In the circumstances of chelseas win last night, i would still want the cup win, but it isn't as simply as "4th v Carling Cup" given the mediocrity of our league campaign.

I love Kenny as much as anyone and the circus that is developing around our next managerial appointment is regrettable - but this thread just comes accross as an attempt to justify the season that we have just endured.

[-RedTilDead-]

Put it this way: history will record only LFC, Chelsea and Man City as winners for 2011/2012.

Plus we got to see Kenny lift another trophy.

[anil]

Why? I don't think FSG had fully confidence in Kenny. You need the full confidence of the board behind you.

Why do you think FSG did not have full confidence in Dalglish?

[Shannon]

Would you of been happy to finish 8th in 2004 but win the Carling cup?

[jDJ]

All I can say, is a lot of our fans kept very fcking quiet when Rafa prioritised finishing in the top four over domestic cups.  Actually, they didn't, they vocally defended his right to do so.

People are just creating an entirely false position for the Americans where by they don't care about winning domestic trophies at all and all they care about is the champions league qualification.  If we had had a reasonable league campaign, say Newcastle-esque, and won the Carling Cup and  Kenny had still been sacked, then it's a fair conclusion but as it happens we had the worst league campaign in anyone who's on this forum's lifetime.  So, all we can say for sure is two great cup runs, aren't enough to ignore an atrocious league campaign for them.

[stockdam]

This year was a one-off and normally 4th with get into the CL.

The simple answer is to get 4th or higher and win a cup or two every year.

However if it's one or the other then I'll reluctantly go for fourth.

Fourth means that we are doing quite well in the league and we can get/keep better players. We should get more CL money and that helps to get better players. Although it is great to win a cup and it goes into the record books, it is harder to convince a player to some to a club that has won the Carling Cup but has finished 8th in the League. The better players want to come to successful clubs and they generally view CL as being better than occasionally winning a Carling Cup.

Yes this year the Carling Cup was better but normally I wouldn't agree.

If we finish 4th or higher every year then we'll attract better players. better managers and be financially more secure. Those things will help us to win Carling Cups and FA Cups.

Winning the Carling Cup is great but it in itself does very little to keep the club viable.

I'd rather focus on being viable and attracting better players - the Cups and trophies will then take care of themselves.

[mikey_LFC]

Do you reckon if we had come 4th Kenny would have been sacked this morning for not making it into the promised land?