Author Topic: Nat Phillips  (Read 237142 times)

Offline farawayred

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2160 on: May 16, 2021, 06:44:09 am »
So you have VVD, Konate, Matip and Gomez and you say to three of them that they aren't playing because we are playing Burnley ?
Kind of. In that scenario, Matip and Gomez are injured and VVD and Nat play together.
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Offline keyop

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2161 on: May 16, 2021, 07:20:30 am »
But like so many others you seem to be missing the key fact that at one time, early on in the season, Nat and Rhys were simply not ready to play regularly in defence, and certainly not to form a partnershiop without any senior CB there to lead and help them. So it's no surprise that Klopp played Fab and even Hendo there whenever he felt he needed to, even if it meant reducing midfleld effectiveness.

But time has passed; lots of emergency coaching and training and practice has taken place, and now I think Klopp would be much more sanguine about playing Nat certainly in just about any game; maybe not Rhys quite yet. And he's now less likely to move Fab and or Hendo out of midfield.

Of course he'd prefer Kabak there and prefer more ideal CBs even more, but the point is that Klopp's views; what he's prepared to risk doing, will have evolved as these extremely inexperienced young players became better suited to the tasks they needed to perform. They'll never be perfect for the roles for all the reasons discussed ad nauseum, but things have not stood still. Those early months with Fab/Hendo out of position were necessary; they weren't a mistake or something that needs questioning; it needed to be done so that now it no longer needs to be done, so to speak.

It's quite amazing how so few seem to grasp this. Perhaps because people love to think they've spotted a flaw that the manager had not thought of; that they'd have done better. As if!
Definitely this.

It's almost as if Jurgen and the players needed time to fix things and adjust to losing so many players - who'd have thought?

It's not rocket science to see that Fabinho and Henderson were utilised to bring short term stability, as Phillips and Williams weren't ready to be thrown in so regularly.

Sadly some on here didn't want him from the start, and instead of accepting that he's now a realistic option next season alongside Virgil or Gomez against many clubs in the PL, they keep doubling down on their original views. It's no surprise our defence looked better once Fabinho was restored to his best position, and once players had a run of games and some familiarity with the system.

We've had 20+ different CB combinations this season, a changing midfield, and two thirds of our usual front 3 misfiring at times. Our problems started in defence but have actually been all over the pitch this season. All things considered, Phillips has done very well (and exceeded expectations) in a disjointed team in which he would never have expected to get so many minutes.

Whilst there's no doubt we'll need to see Virgil, Gomez, Matip, and perhaps Konate next season, I'd be absolutely fine if Jurgen started Virgil and Phillips together against a bottom half club - especially those whose main tactics are aerial balls and physicality.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2162 on: May 16, 2021, 07:57:41 am »
Agreed but I am comfortable with either Fabinho or Hendo playing as the six. I love Nat but he has only played because we had both a defensive crisis AND a midfield crisis.

Thats fine when Van Dijk was fully fit. He isnt now though is he and thats the point.

Offline kezzy

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2163 on: May 16, 2021, 08:57:50 am »
The lad has done a good job since coming in and has improved massively as the season has gone on.  He’s an old school centre half, strong as fuck in the air and tackles anything that moves.  He’s also improved his passing quite a lot since the season has gone on.  He lacks pace and can get caught out of position when he goes charging out wide to win tackles but with Van Dijk or Matip alongside him that would get cut out of his game. 

We are currently on a run of 5 wins and 2 draws out of our last 7 games which is the best form in the league over that period and the only 2 games where we’ve lost points are the ones where he didn’t play, so he’s become an important player in our race to get a top 4 finish.

We clearly aren’t gonna have a massive transfer budget in the summer and if the Konate stories are true then I don’t see us spending another 18 million on Kabak so personally I’d like to see us give Phillips a new deal. 

Offline Pistolero

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2164 on: May 16, 2021, 09:13:02 am »
Nat Phillips almost joined Swansea in October and Rhys Williams was on loan at Kidderminster last season but they excelled at Old Trafford as a stand-in centre-back partnership in the extended absence of the injured Virgil van Dijk, Joe Gomez and Joël Matip

Klopp has promised the two rookies the opportunity to stay in the side when the regulars are fit next season, explaining: “The boys will be here and will be needed. I don’t get so blind overnight so that I don’t see a good performance.

“Team selection is based on performance in training and in pre-season friendlies or in proper competition games so the door is always open. This year created two proper careers which is nice. When you are at an academy, that is not written in stone but now they could show how good they are.”


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Offline Welshred

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2165 on: May 16, 2021, 10:18:09 am »
Kind of. In that scenario, Matip and Gomez are injured and VVD and Nat play together.

In that situation Konate would probably start rather than Phillips.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2166 on: May 16, 2021, 11:26:36 am »
We shouldn't go into next season with four senior CBs, three of whom will be coming back from long-term injuries and the other looks likely to be new to the league. Whether it's Kabak, Phillips, Williams, Ben Davies, Sepp van den Berg, Billy Koumetio or someone else, we'll need one more recognised CB to cover us through the first half of the season at least and guard against us being put in a siuation where we're moving key players out of their best positions to cover in defence.

I'd keep Nat and Rhys around until January at least (5th and 6th choice) and then assess beyond that. Hopefully Konate can slot straight in but the other three will need easing back in.
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Offline Welshred

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2167 on: May 16, 2021, 11:34:53 am »
The "easing in" will be done in pre-season and August though. The games don't start coming thick and fast until September so barring any injuries by the time we get internationals and European games where we play weekends and midweeks the players will be used to the demands they need for the season.

Offline Dim Glas

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2168 on: May 16, 2021, 11:56:25 am »
But like so many others you seem to be missing the key fact that at one time, early on in the season, Nat and Rhys were simply not ready to play regularly in defence, and certainly not to form a partnershiop without any senior CB there to lead and help them. So it's no surprise that Klopp played Fab and even Hendo there whenever he felt he needed to, even if it meant reducing midfleld effectiveness.

But time has passed; lots of emergency coaching and training and practice has taken place, and now I think Klopp would be much more sanguine about playing Nat certainly in just about any game; maybe not Rhys quite yet. And he's now less likely to move Fab and or Hendo out of midfield.

Of course he'd prefer Kabak there and prefer more ideal CBs even more, but the point is that Klopp's views; what he's prepared to risk doing, will have evolved as these extremely inexperienced young players became better suited to the tasks they needed to perform. They'll never be perfect for the roles for all the reasons discussed ad nauseum, but things have not stood still. Those early months with Fab/Hendo out of position were necessary; they weren't a mistake or something that needs questioning; it needed to be done so that now it no longer needs to be done, so to speak.

It's quite amazing how so few seem to grasp this. Perhaps because people love to think they've spotted a flaw that the manager had not thought of; that they'd have done better. As if!

That first paragraph needs stickying at the top of every  page in this forum. It’s mad how now all of a sudden we’re the experts, and a coach like Jürgen Klopp apparently got it horribly wrong.  Also funny, cos many of the same people are insisting these players aren’t good enough anyway, yet are stating the manager made a mistake not playing them.  Fab is a really really really good cental defender - of course he was played there. Unfortunately, the loss of Thiago, and then more injuries to the likes of Keita, Ox, then later Hendo meant our midfield was also stretched and overworked.

Also Nat wasn’t on the CL list, so that hampered selections too as they tried to strive for some sort of continuity at the back.

And yes, they have worked hard over the past few months with top class coaches, and most importantly - they have built trust with the manager and coaches. Something that takes time. This is a manager who won a league with 2 teenage central defenders, he has no problem with young players back there. But it takes time to build trust and it takes time for players who played in the 2nd division in germany and at the 5th tier level here (or whatever it was) to get up to any sort of speed or understanding of the premier league.

Offline macmanamanaman

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2169 on: May 16, 2021, 12:55:57 pm »
Our most important player today.
Corners and freekicks. Defend!!


Hopefully he's also been working in training on his attacking set pieces. If he scores , plants one in the back of the net off a corner, will be massive.
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Offline macmanamanaman

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2170 on: May 16, 2021, 01:05:00 pm »
Good practice finishing in the last game.
Now just do it in the other box ;)
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Offline NewfoundRed

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2171 on: May 16, 2021, 01:05:45 pm »
I just don’t think he’s fashionable enough for many. Over the last half season, he’s shown glimpses that he’s got good aerial prowess, good last ditch tackling skills, good passing range, he’s tough, he’s shown he can command, and for me I think he’s got the intelligence.

He just lacks the polish, and the consistency. Both of which he can gain playing as the second fiddle. Is he a starter here? Maybe not, but I think he’s not well respected because of his background being a late bloomer, and IMO it’s probably another case that he’s not called Phillipinho.

Bolton fans used to call his Dad Jiminho.  :)

Offline bornandbRED

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2172 on: May 16, 2021, 02:48:13 pm »
Is he any worse than Conor Coady or James Tarkowski? Probably not

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2173 on: May 16, 2021, 02:51:42 pm »
Is he any worse than Conor Coady or James Tarkowski? Probably not

Definitely not as good on ball as Coady. Funnily enough could definitely see Wolves/Burnley interested in signing him in future.

Offline Welshred

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2174 on: May 16, 2021, 02:55:35 pm »
Is he any worse than Conor Coady or James Tarkowski? Probably not

He's nowhere near both of them

Offline daveonthespionkop1900

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2175 on: May 16, 2021, 02:56:14 pm »
he needs a song. his name should be changed by the 10,000 at the Palace game... love Nat
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Offline johnj147

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2176 on: May 16, 2021, 03:06:05 pm »
Deserves a contract and a wage rise ..

Offline johnj147

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2177 on: May 16, 2021, 03:07:09 pm »
Bolton fans used to call his Dad Jiminho.  :)
lol ;D

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2178 on: May 17, 2021, 01:44:05 am »
Today showed why the play Nat against the grocks doesn't really work. The more we dominate possession the more vulnerable Nat is to a counter-attack. When the full backs push on our centre backs need to be able to defend the channels.
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Offline farawayred

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2179 on: May 17, 2021, 02:36:01 am »
Today showed why the play Nat against the grocks doesn't really work. The more we dominate possession the more vulnerable Nat is to a counter-attack. When the full backs push on our centre backs need to be able to defend the channels.
That 95th min corner was intended for him, I believe. But Alisson showed him what the result of such balls should be; what a goal!...

I agree with you, but my point is that Nat can learn offensive headers. In the last two games he's been there in the box playing part. He's not good yet, no question, but the balls have not been perfect either. Even today, Trent's passes were overhit 99% of the time. I could be wrong, but I truly believe that Ali was supposed to cover the space for Nat to run into and head at goal. Well, the better outcome happened...
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Offline Clint Eastwood

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2180 on: May 17, 2021, 08:23:46 am »
Thought he was really good yesterday. He’s clearly a bit too limited to play in our team, hasn’t got the recovery pace or the ability to win the ball on the front foot, but he’s stuck to what he’s good at and has done himself proud this season. If we do get top 4, he’s played a significant role in it.

I don’t think there’s any point keeping him/giving him a longer contract. Once our senior CBs are back, and we probably sign Konate, he won’t get much game time. He will probably want more game time himself. Any PL club who plays a deeper line should really be looking at him though. He’d be a very smart signing.

Then again, I’ve said that about pretty much every young fringe player we have sold.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2181 on: May 17, 2021, 08:33:11 am »
He's nowhere near both of them

If only for experience. Both of them were average Championship players until their mid-20s. They've both played 300 first team games and are reaching their peak pushing 30. Burnley and Wolves are also very defensive minded teams and aren't defending a high line.

Nat has just played his 40th first team game of his career.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 08:37:33 am by Fromola »
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Offline Ravishing Rick Dude

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2182 on: May 17, 2021, 08:33:53 am »
Thought he was really good yesterday. He’s clearly a bit too limited to play in our team, hasn’t got the recovery pace or the ability to win the ball on the front foot, but he’s stuck to what he’s good at and has done himself proud this season. If we do get top 4, he’s played a significant role in it.

I don’t think there’s any point keeping him/giving him a longer contract. Once our senior CBs are back, and we probably sign Konate, he won’t get much game time. He will probably want more game time himself. Any PL club who plays a deeper line should really be looking at him though. He’d be a very smart signing.

Then again, I’ve said that about pretty much every young fringe player we have sold.

Maybe to cover all bases and to play it smart, when all our cbs are back, we should loan him instead of selling him. He will get game time elsewhere and we can recall him if things go tits up again with injuries.

Also, we don't know if our injured cbs will be the same when they get back.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2183 on: May 17, 2021, 08:39:36 am »
Maybe to cover all bases and to play it smart, when all our cbs are back, we should loan him instead of selling him. He will get game time elsewhere and we can recall him if things go tits up again with injuries.

Also, we don't know if our injured cbs will be the same when they get back.

I'd keep him until January and then assess it. See how Konate has settled if he signs and how the other 3 have recovered.
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Offline reddebs

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2184 on: May 17, 2021, 08:46:42 am »
There's a quote by Milly in one of the clips they show regularly on lfctv that now makes me think of Nat.

Can't remember it word for word but something about earning the right to play for the club then earning the right to become part of the clubs history.

That's exactly what he's done this season and nobody can take that away from him, regardless of what happens in the future.

Offline Ravishing Rick Dude

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2185 on: May 17, 2021, 08:46:57 am »
I'd keep him until January and then assess it. See how Konate has settled if he signs and how the other 3 have recovered.

Aye, good lad is our Nat. Some people can't wait to tell him to fuck off. We shouldn't mess with karma like that.
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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2186 on: May 17, 2021, 09:14:02 am »
I'd keep him until January and then assess it. See how Konate has settled if he signs and how the other 3 have recovered.
Yes I will go with that. You've got people here talking about offering the 'young lad' a new contract. I am by no means suggesting he should be 'fucked off' either. I'm just suggesting we get as much as we can for him as realistically he isn't good enough to be playing for us.

He's done well enough and if we get top 4 he's certainly played his part.

Offline Welshred

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2187 on: May 17, 2021, 09:28:51 am »
He was woeful yesterday. Was 5 yards behind the defensive line to play Hal Robson Kanu onside for their goal and don't even start me on that attempted header in the first half that he completely missed that left Robson Kanu one on one with Ali only for Trent to come across and cover.

Today showed why the play Nat against the grocks doesn't really work. The more we dominate possession the more vulnerable Nat is to a counter-attack. When the full backs push on our centre backs need to be able to defend the channels.

Then there's this to go on top of it.

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2188 on: May 17, 2021, 09:30:30 am »
Him and Williams struggled big time and that's against Robson-Kanu, who I am pretty certain hasn't played in ages. They are up against Chris Wood in the next game.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 09:34:04 am by a treeless whopper »

Offline Phineus

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2189 on: May 17, 2021, 09:36:44 am »
Yeah that was probably his worse game for us yesterday... was all over place. Lost 6 arial duels too and if he isn't doing those basics, there really isn't much more he's bringing to team.

I really just don't see how he can be an option for our system at all next season. He's a good defender in right system, but its a style clash that really showed yesterday.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2190 on: May 17, 2021, 09:37:47 am »
Yeah that was probably his worse game for us yesterday... was all over place. Lost 6 arial duels too and if he isn't doing those basics, there really isn't much more he's bringing to team.

I really just don't see how he can be an option for our system at all next season. He's a good defender in right system, but its a style clash that really showed yesterday.

The only reason he is being considered as an option is on the chance that we decide to go into next season with 4 centrebacks.

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2191 on: May 17, 2021, 09:52:58 am »
For someone who is really good defending headers, he's crap at attacking ones isnt he?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2192 on: May 17, 2021, 09:56:54 am »
Yeah that was probably his worse game for us yesterday... was all over place. Lost 6 arial duels too and if he isn't doing those basics, there really isn't much more he's bringing to team.

I really just don't see how he can be an option for our system at all next season. He's a good defender in right system, but its a style clash that really showed yesterday.

He's looked less assured next to Williams, didn't know whether to stick or twist too often. He had a good paring with Kabak. I think we'll see Fabinho alongside him on Wednesday.
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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2193 on: May 17, 2021, 10:18:41 am »
He’s destined to score a last minute header to secure 4th place.
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2194 on: May 17, 2021, 11:31:22 am »
Phillips has looked a little exposed at times, mainly because he’s playing in a system that can catch you out very quickly.

But yesterday he made a lot of individual mistakes and made poor decision making. Lost a lot of headers, mistimed his leaps on a few occasions and poor distribution, especially in the last few minutes when he started over rating his own ability on the ball.

What’s worrying is the next two games are against Burnley and Palace who’ll play in a very similar style to WBA and use Chris Woods and Benteke for those flicks and knock downs. Nat needs to up his game against those two.
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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2195 on: May 17, 2021, 12:06:19 pm »
Nothing against Man of Steel Nat but some seem to regard his determination to defend at all costs as a substitute for defensive quality. He gives everything and never shirks a tackle, but his lack of pace and  poor decision making are the reasons why we would never have seen him in the first team without all the injuries. We aspire to win the PL and CL but having Nat anywhere near the first team as even as cover won't help there. Great lad but so were Nicki Tanner and Torben Piechnik. I hope Nat gets a move to a good club but I doubt he has a long term future at Liverpool.

Offline G a r y

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2196 on: May 17, 2021, 03:26:46 pm »
For someone who is really good defending headers, he's crap at attacking ones isnt he?
Getting your head on a ball in a defensive situation is completely different to doing it in an attacking sense.

He's just getting his head on it in our box, anywhere will do. Guiding the ball into the net at the opposite end of the pitch like Alan Shearer or Alisson takes a hell of a lot more skill.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 03:29:22 pm by G a r y »

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2197 on: May 17, 2021, 03:50:11 pm »
Getting your head on a ball in a defensive situation is completely different to doing it in an attacking sense.

He's just getting his head on it in our box, anywhere will do. Guiding the ball into the net at the opposite end of the pitch like Alan Shearer or Alisson takes a hell of a lot more skill.

Ahhh yes of course, thanks G a r y.

Nah he's not 'just getting his head on it in our box, anywhere will do' he's actually quite often shown pretty good guidance and direction with them. So again, weird that he seems to get a bit of a nosebleed when he's in the opposition box. He's easily our most dominant header of the ball (with the other CBs out). With his height and his ability at heading the ball defensively, I'd expect him to be a bit more of a presence from corners and free kicks.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2198 on: May 17, 2021, 03:56:07 pm »
Ahhh yes of course, thanks G a r y.

Nah he's not 'just getting his head on it in our box, anywhere will do' he's actually quite often shown pretty good guidance and direction with them. So again, weird that he seems to get a bit of a nosebleed when he's in the opposition box. He's easily our most dominant header of the ball (with the other CBs out). With his height and his ability at heading the ball defensively, I'd expect him to be a bit more of a presence from corners and free kicks.
You are clearly watching what you want to see if you honestly believe his distribution via defensive headers can be described as 'good'.

He's a big lad, he has an advantage and should be winning those headers - which he does. Problem is half of the time they end up anywhere. When he wins those headers he is concentrating on the ball, nothing else. Trying to score at the other end requires concentration of where the ball is, opposing players and the goal itself, something he can't do.

Hence why in your own words, "he's crap".
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 03:58:23 pm by G a r y »

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Re: Nat Phillips
« Reply #2199 on: May 17, 2021, 04:03:15 pm »
Guess there will be a few decisions to be made as can you rely on Matip who misses 50% of the games since he has joined us? Probably not. None of the CDs we brought in this Jan have made more of an impact that Philips so surely he is ahead of Kabak or Davies for next season. More than likely we will buy one CD this summer who will be in the mix to partner one of Virgil or Gomez if one of them are injured. If two are injured then are we happy with Nat as our 4th option for central defence? As long as we have a quick partner beside him I would not worry too much Philips as he has grown this year when more experienced teammates have struggled. He has surely earned a spot in the squad for next season and when called upon he wont shirk from his duties as he is well up for the battle.
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