Topic: Academy development thread

[Callaghan.]

From .tv http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N164669090608-1254.htm

" ... passion, aggression and desire. We want players who are hungry to play football and achieve success with Liverpool. We need to return to the philosophy of passing and moving quickly. We have to develop a winning mentality in every one of our players."

[jason42]

It's my nephew mate - he's 16 going on 17 and in one of the four SRU development squads. He's leaving school a year early and doing a year's coaching work with Perthshire Rugby Club, so that's him pretty much dedicated to a career in either rugby or sports development work even if he doesn't make it as a player (he needs a big growth spurt if he's going to have a chance sadly). He goes in for regular assessments and in the scouting games, they're given detailed feedback based on checklisted aspects of their game.

It's good common sense isn't it?

How old's your son mate?

Sorry Roy. Could have sworn I read 'son'. My boy is almost 12 so is in the U13 squad. The really details stuff can start at U14 for a very select few but for most at U16. The stuff they have to do now is to get them in the right habits and doing the right exercises now in readiness for that time.

[royhendo]

Sorry Roy. Could have sworn I read 'son'. My boy is almost 12 so is in the U13 squad. The really details stuff can start at U14 for a very select few but for most at U16. The stuff they have to do now is to get them in the right habits and doing the right exercises now in readiness for that time.

No worries dude! It amazes me the level of coaching for the forwards even at the younger age groups mate. Good luck with your son - the standard in rugby is pretty good now I think so if he has the talent, they'll take him through.

[hassinator]

They have been let go because they are expensive, with many years service and also because Rafa has decided that he can increase his power base within the club now that Parry has gone.

well that's your take on it.  you could equally say they've been removed after years of under achievement and at a time which more negative stories are appearing about our club in the sunday sun than ever before.

in terms of melwood indeed only one player has come into the first team on a regular basis since rafa joined us - insua - but by reckoning that's one more than the academy has produced since houllier was in charge and we have an abundance of potential first team players waiting in the wings - pacheco; nemeth; san jose to name a few and when was the last time we could say that?

there seems to be a hyper defensive culture that's sprung up in the academy, a real 'them' and 'us' attitude which you seem to characterise when describing our manager as wanting to 'increase his power base.. now that parry has gone.'  well good riddance to parry - no matter what mitigation about the unspecific growth of his role he was clearly incapable of being a modern ceo - and three cheers for rafa who is putting his head on the block by bringing in his own staff and making his own decisions about a chronically underperforming and expensive part of our club.

also farewelll to 'them' and 'us' as if all the staff are pulling in the same direction then we're back to just being plain old 'us'

 

[Pawlu]

Here's what is effectively a translation of the piece that appeared on AS a week or so back:

New Academy Head Looking to re-establish a Liverpool Way

Re-hauling the overall philosophy at the academy. That is the task that Rafael Benitez has set for new academy head Pep Segura who will be looking to see that all teams in the set-up play in a specific manner and with a particular style.

Talking to the Spanish paper AS, Segura said that as the head of the technical areas at the academy, he will be the reference point for all coaching and training sessions. With a large number of staff at the academy being released last week, which included high profile figures like Hughie Macauley and John Owens, it looks like Segura has already set about his job in an area where, yet again, Liverpool seem to have fallen behind.

“Arsenal and Manchester United having been working well with young players for a number of years and Liverpool is now trying to do likewise,” he said.

“At Arsenal, Wenger has had total control [on the academy] for the past fourteen years. The same is now happening at Liverpool where Rafael Benitez is now involved in the day-to-day operations but also in the players’ contracts as well as the technical staff.”

Benitez newly gained power over the academy is evidenced by the fact that Segura was handpicked by him, contrary to what had happened two years back when Piet Hamberg had been appointed. “He (Benitez) asked me what I was doing and at the time I was at out of work. At that point he asked me to come over for a weekend where he told me that he had thought of me for this role. I thought about it for a couple of days and then accepted.”

Having led Olympiakos to a league and cup double, it might seem surprising that Segura has accepted to move back into youth football. Yet, that is where he seems to be most comfortable at.

“I have been in football coaching for the past twenty-six years but only for the past three years have I been working in the senior game. I was the link between Barcelona B and the first team in my final season at the Nou Camp and then spent two years in Greece.”

Given their success in the Champions League with a squad built around home grown players, it is fashionable to try and copy the Barcelona model. That seems to be what Liverpool have gone for and Segura, with eight years of experience at the Catalan giants, seems perfectly suited to do just that.
“One of the keys to success at an academy is to have a clear training and playing ideology throughout the different age-groups so that the players can learn about their positions. Once that’s in place you can leave them on their own.”

“Then there’s the ability to spot players: Messi, Bojan and Iniesta are there because they’re good. True, they came and liked what they saw so they decided to stay at Barcelona. That is also very important.”

“Yet, the secret to continuing with this production line is that everyone knows what their role is, which makes it all easier. Once you have set up the way you work, then year on year you can build on it and get results. I remember that there were some problems when the 4-3-3 style was imposed but they were overcome and the teams play well.”

Which is not to say that clubs with a distinct ideology between the youth and senior set-ups cannot work but, as Segura hints by using Real Madrid as an example, it is more difficult to integrate players into the senior side.

“It is curious because Madrid have a bigger pool from which to choose from than Barcelona and they always have great players. But that is precisely it: Madrid is a factory of individuals but you need to define the philosophy of the club.”
I recall that Angel Pedraza (a former Barcelona and Real Mallorca player) once told me that he wasn’t the best player of his [youth] side but made it to the first team because there was a gap in his role. The same applies to [Sergio] Busquets who is another example of a player who has been trained for a specific role.

It wasn’t a coincidence neither for Pedraza nor for Busquets. They were chosen because they had specific abilities that fitted into the characteristics of a particular position. Lately, I’ve talked a lot about this with Benitez: if you see what way you want to play and are clear about it then you can say that you need a player to play as a 2, 7 or 11 in this or that team. That way everything is better”

“Pedraza was casual about it or is about Busquets. Arrived with a clear profile is set to play and fit into that idea because his features were those of that position. I've commented a lot lately with Benitez: if you look you see a clear way of working what you need: a 2, 7, 11 in this or that team. And you're all the better.”

http://www.aliverpoolthing.com/2009/06/new-academy-head-looking-to-re.html

[Manila Kop]

Good read Pawlu, thanks.  Great to read we're going to define a playing philosophy/system which can hopefully form the basis of a long-term pipeline of youth players for the club.

[royhendo]

Really interesting Pawlu. Really really really interesting.

It chimes with the stuff on Alexanco (his old boss at Barca). Sorry for posting it repeatedly but it's an insight into what we're getting (albeit we'll develop kids with the three main systems in mind I guess - won't we? Or will we focus on 4-2-3-1? Something to keep an eye on.)

http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/432338.pdf

 
 

[LFCfan4Life]

Premier League academies were set up in order to produce "elite" footballers to play at some level in this country, not all at the host club as for the top teams this is impossible. Watch the lower leagues and indeed non league football and it is full of quality players who have come through academies. But hey if they are not playing for Liverpool they are failures, try telling that to lads who are earning good money in the lower leagues.

All I have tried to do is to explain from a first hand perspective what goes on at the academy, however too many people think they are experts with no first hand or indeed any knowledge at all of youth set ups in this country. The same old mantra that if they are not producing a Steven Gerrard every year they are a failure is spouted, however no one comes up with any answers.

no one says its a failing system at the moment because of not producing a Carra or Gerrard type first team player for years but because they have only produced a handful of top/second tier standard players now that is a failure.

The mancs have the top two leagues littered with their players Eagles, Ebanks, shawcross, campbell to name a few

[royhendo]

This looks like it was the AS article...

http://www.as.com/futbol/articulo/futbol-liverpool-busca-fijar-estilo/dasftb/20090531dasdaiftb_58/Tes

Yoda-style jibberish translation courtesy of Google translate...

"The Liverpool looking to set a style for your football'

===

Pep Segura (Olesa de Montserrat, 1957) is director of youth football from Liverpool, that was called "Academy"

===


 
What do they want with your recruitment?
Giving a boost to your football, working to unify the criteria, setting a style. Me depend trainers, coaches, the philosophy of the club in that plot.

How is it organized?
Children arrive with the five years since the nine preacademia, Liverpool has a team per category to the Sub-18, which is the most important. On Tuesday, we lost the final against Arsenal in the English Cup reserved for players of that age: they won 4-1 in London and 1-2 at Anfield.

So good are they?
Yes, Arsenal is very powerful at that level. And in this, as in all, the British have their secrets. You can not remove a player to another club through transfers if not enormous, the boys must live within a hundred kilometers from the seat of his club ... All this until they are 16 and are considered semi. Arsenal and United for years have been working very well with young people, while Liverpool is being incorporated into this move, which left something out of a problem, especially the budget.

It should be noted in the hands of Wenger's young Arsenal domain, of course.
Yes, it takes 14 years there and it controls everything. It also happens in Liverpool, where Rafa Benitez is on a day to day team, but also in the contracts of players on the composition of various technical bodies ... Arsenal is a club in Belgium where mother bears with young boys and their families the way for two years. Those who need community and become just landed in London with a superb learning.

How has the Wenger-Real Madrid?
Our football is very different to English and considering that Madrid is not a SAD. At Arsenal, Wenger has all the stability of the world, win or not win the first team. And the absolute command, of course. That is complicated and it is offered with the mother or other Spanish club. His decision to choose between going for ten years at Arsenal without concerns that they know or a bet on a football club and so different. Let me give you an example: back in the game of the final U-18 that he spoke with 4-1 in favor of Arsenal and Liverpool all aware that it was impossible to win the title, over ten thousand people were at Anfield. It's another mindset in everything and a coach like him, so used to this, a change must be done very uphill.

You recruited Rafa Benitez, of course.
Yes I did and asked what I told him nothing that was home. I proposed to travel to Liverpool one weekend, I did and he told me he had thought of me for the position. For two days I answered that under.

Because you have worked more on the basis that in professional football.
Training Yes, since I was 26 years, but only lived in the past three adult football. I was a technical bridge between the Barça B team and first in my last season at the Nou Camp and came after two years in Greece.

Where he took Serra Ferrer.
Indeed. Assistant to AEK. It was a good debut, but at the end of the season I decided to go back, I had personal issues that advised not to continue with the club. My surprise was that a week of being at home called me to join Olympiacos assistant Lebonis, then his coach. And there I went.

And ended up being the coach with the team that won the League and Cup
Yes, we won the Super Lebonis Greek, but was fired in February and I picked the team that actually ended up doing the double. Happened they are used to track well in the league in January or February and then we were third. They ran out of patience ...

And why was not profitable for their success?
They offered me to renew as a coach or manager, to choose. But do not feel confidence, a full belief on the part of the club. Ernesto Valverde did the same thing: they're so volatile! I thought it better again, as he did as a champion team and was not in Spain then you will never find ... and not found it.

You spent eight years in football Barca, now so fashionable in the presence of large players in the first team. So what's working well?
One of the keys to success is training a pool of players through a clear line of work and the boat has the touch football in the positions of players are the same on all computers ... That leaves them almost alone. Then there is the choice of players, and that is pure eye: Messi, Bojan and Iniesta are there because they are good. They came, saw and stayed. ¡Cómo no! The secret is to continue along that line and that everyone in the club crossed it, then everything becomes easier. On the boat has been set way of doing this after years and years to bring together people with a common way of thinking is normal and get results. I remember there were some problems when it imposed the 4-3-3, but were overcome and all teams and play well. This has the advantage that, being all the same style, the lads are set each other and know what they do will always play.

At Madrid it just puts it lacks an idea from the base.
It is curious, because Madrid has a greater ability to select players that Barça and always had great players at its base. But up there. Madrid is a factory of soloists in their quarry and lacks a solid line: you need to define a working methodology of the club.

I remember Angel Pedraza (former Mallorca and Barcelona player among others) told me that he was never the best of his team, but he came to Barca's first team because at the top always missing a player like him. Busquets is another example of a guy trained for very specific demarcation.
Yes No Pedraza was casual about it or is about Busquets. Arrived with a clear profile is set to play and fit into that idea because her features were those of that position. I've commented a lot lately with Benitez: if you look you see a clear way of working what you need: a 2, 7, 11 in this or that team. And you're all the better.

Which player knew as a child, she grew up and was surprised?
Undoubtedly, Iniesta. For its ability to create in all positions. It is bright and talented individual in the group.

You were with Van Gaal at Barcelona. Xavi, Valdes, Puyol was strengthened him. Is it the first father of this ship?
All this is true, and you add that Louis is the technicians who actually grow the team who run the club and its contractors. It offers a style, a method of work, everything is teaching it. I have not found a person of his ability and wisdom, for the football.

Did you expect the success of Guardiola?
Therefore not expected anyone. It is true that he could master the three key concepts in the work of a coach, but ...

Concepts are ...?
Control of apparel, control of training and surroundings. The second could lead to doubts because there were only directed at third, but we saw that there was a different coach. This can be seen in the same way that you see a kid playing and you say, this is the best! But it has all gone so well ... What he has been extraordinary.

[Vintage Nerd]

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N164696090610-1250.htm

[rocco]

Liverpool have raided Barcelona for experienced youth coach Rodolfo Borrell.

Borrell is joining Liverpool's Academy setup

Borrell signed his two-year deal with Liverpool on Monday.



http://fcbtransfers.blogspot.com/2009/06/liverpool-signs-barcelona-youth-coach.html

[hassinator]

things are coming together nicely on this front

[RedSandgrounder]

Are they though? I remember when Rafa came we had the likes of Lee and Thompson leave, Paco Herrera etc. came in, then he and McParland left, Steve Heighway too and Piet Hamburg came in. Since Rafa arrived it's been almost turmoil in these ranks, it's never settled, and like this how are the kids going to progress when there is no solid plan for their development.

Hopefully this isn't another false dawn, and this set up more or less stays put for 5+ years, and is successful, and not being replaced again in a couple of years time.

[Stanfo]

I have tried to stay out of this thread as some people who know fuck all seem intent on saying anything Rafa does must be right, well we shall see on that front, as personal politics as well as the good of the club is at work here, believe me.

[Shabby]

Are they though? I remember when Rafa came we had the likes of Lee and Thompson leave, Paco Herrera etc. came in, then he and McParland left, Steve Heighway too and Piet Hamburg came in. Since Rafa arrived it's been almost turmoil in these ranks, it's never settled, and like this how are the kids going to progress when there is no solid plan for their development.

Hopefully this isn't another false dawn, and this set up more or less stays put for 5+ years, and is successful, and not being replaced again in a couple of years time.

I think the difference is now Rafa has complete control and is hiring the people he wants.

[hassinator]

I have tried to stay out of this thread as some people who know fuck all seem intent on saying anything Rafa does must be right, well we shall see on that front, as personal politics as well as the good of the club is at work here, believe me.

what you don't think segura and borrell are good signings to head up our youth program?

[Crazynumber9]

Are they though? I remember when Rafa came we had the likes of Lee and Thompson leave, Paco Herrera etc. came in, then he and McParland left, Steve Heighway too and Piet Hamburg came in. Since Rafa arrived it's been almost turmoil in these ranks, it's never settled, and like this how are the kids going to progress when there is no solid plan for their development.

Hopefully this isn't another false dawn, and this set up more or less stays put for 5+ years, and is successful, and not being replaced again in a couple of years time.

Staff changeovers happen, Paco Herrera apparently said he was only at Liverpool to help Rafa set up, it was never a long term job. With regards to all the changes at Kirby, Im sure we can all agree that changes were needed. I dont think anyone really expected it to be so intensive but Rafa for better or worse is putting his stamp on the youth structure at the club.

From what I've read it seems we are following the Barca model, it may take a season or two for it to be fully implemented and then I suppose we will be in a better postion to judge.  There will always be changes in coaching personel but if the system is put in place than the problems cause by it should be minimal.

[Manila Kop]

I know Martin Samuel is beyond the pale for some RAWKites, but there were some interesting points on the structural problems in the Academy system made in the middle of this article (in bold):

Let's all copy Spain (for this week, at least)
by Martin Samuel

So what happened to France? What happened to the plan to reshape English football along the lines of the French model; to create our own Centre Technique National Fernand Sastre, otherwise known as the Clairefontaine academy?

At the weekend, Sir Trevor Brooking, the director of technical development at the FA, said the game in England had to be more like that in Spain. Brooking spoke glowingly  of recent trips there, during which FA officials witnessed the devotion to coaching and technique. He admired the way a small physique is no barrier to success.

And no doubt all of this is true and worthy. But was it only eight years ago when everything we did was going to be based on developments in France that had produced a generation of World Cup-winning stars? Before that, English football was going to be more Italian, with pasta diets and conditioning work. That was after we had to go Dutch, teaching six-year-olds the Johan Cruyff turn before they knew how to trap a ball and coaching them to play in every position until their little heads were spinning.

There are splinter groups, such as the Brazilian Soccer Schools run by Simon Clifford, which advocate Futebol de Salao, and no doubt if Japan won the next World Cup, every promising 14-year-old would be placed on a diet of raw fish and manga comics for inspiration. But, for now, Spain are the best, so we must copy all they do.

Not so long ago, it was impossible to get a club to look at a 12-year-old who was less than 6ft 2in. Now, scouts will be trawling the parks each Sunday on the hunt for highly skilled midgets. Anyone would think we are just a ridiculous country without any original thoughts or ideas and that we merely look at whichever team is winning and think ‘Right, let’s do that’, as if it will compensate for our inadequacies.

Brooking’s focus has been largely on five-to-11-year-old children. In June 2007, he was the public face of an initiative that introduced 66 specialist skills coaches across 12 regions to work with that vital age group. Why such a random number? An FA source explained that 66 is a special figure to English football. So while the basic intention was noble, its execution became a publicity stunt with just the right headline-catching number of coaches to correspond to the year England won the World Cup. All things considered, it was probably just as well that Sven Goran Eriksson did not pull it off in 2002.

Yet ask around the Premier League clubs and many involved in youth football will argue that the five-to-11-year-old group is not the problem for the English game. The claim is that, at a very young age, England’s aspiring footballers are no different from their continental equivalents.

They hold their own at technical levels and return from tournaments abroad with a healthy number of trophies and awards. This would make sense. At a very young age talent is natural. For England to produce less skilled seven-year-olds, the fault would be genetic, not educational.

The theory is that it all goes downhill between 11 and 17, the academy years, with too much focus on league structure and not enough on player development. I recall an academy manager at Chelsea bemoaning the fact that his under-nines had to travel six hours to Cardiff City and back for 40 minutes of football, because it was a league game.

Premier League clubs need to be able to field a team of 11 in each year group to keep their licence, meaning each coach typically works with a squad of 16 or more. Fewer than a third are considered to have a chance of a professional career, meaning more than 10 are passengers, there to make up the numbers.

The key to elite development in any sport is to focus on the very best; those with exceptional talent. Instead, English youth coaching is wasted by being spread thinly, rather than honing in on the handful of boys in each year who really benefit from top-quality instruction.

Each time there is a significant Premier League meeting on youth development, Arsenal propose that the league system is altered so that clubs can decide which players fit in best at which level. The idea is that if a team has five good kids at under 14 and six good 15-year-olds, they form a team to play against other clubs in largely non-competitive fixtures designed to improve technique. Kids do not need a league to behave competitively, as any spectator to a playground game will testify.

If a club have seven outstanding 13-year-olds they could organise seven-a-side games in that category (this happens quite often anyway). By making the system more flexible, academy coaches could focus on skills and technique and pour their energies into the elite players. With less focus on winning and losing as the only yardstick of success, there would also be limited attention paid to nurturing the man-child: the very tall, physically developed boys who, at a young age, can dominate games by brute force but may lack skill.

A club could even place players in teams according to size rather than age, which happens in other sports including rugby, not to mention at some of the more old-fashioned independent schools, so that late developers can be given time to mature without being stifled by those who have grown into men at the age of 14.

Something is wrong, because England’s teenage footballers do not experience the success that should flow from being part of the most powerful league in the world, with the funding and opportunity that brings.

At the recent Under 17 European Championship, for instance, the England team were embarrassed and went home with the poorest record of the eight competing countries. A squad that included Jack Wilshere among a number of Arsenal’s Youth Cup winners and John Bostock, already a £1million player after leaving Crystal Palace for Tottenham Hotspur, took one point from three matches and had a goal difference of minus five.

Germany, the eventual winners, humiliated England 4-0 and in the final group game against Turkey, even the FA’s official match reporter was forced to record the depressing number of aimless long balls played by John Peacock’s team — the ‘much attempted ball forward from defence’ that brought nothing before Turkey scored the winner in the 74th minute. It is unlikely Wilshere, who was injured and did not play against Turkey, is instructed to hit channel balls at his club but, that aside, the usual excuses cannot be trotted out for the limitations of England’s Under 17 players. It is not as if their opportunities are restricted by the presence of foreign players: they all play regularly at youth and reserve level.

The malaise runs deeper. England’s Under 19 team play in the European Championship in Ukraine next month, the Under 20 squad go to the World Cup in Egypt in September and next week marks the beginning of the European Under 21 Championship in Sweden, with Stuart Pearce marshalling a group that includes Theo Walcott, Gabriel Agbonlahor and Micah Richards.

So young English footballers do enjoy limited success — at the last Under 21 European Championship, England went home without losing a game — but Brooking recalls the worrying gap when Spain’s Under 19 team beat England 3-0 in February, playing in a way that mirrored the senior team’s dismantling of Fabio Capello’s side in Seville the following night.

‘The whole coaching structure has to change,’ said Brooking. ‘It can’t be linked to the old style, the dad who coaches the team and wants to win at the expense of development. That can destroy the whole ethos of passing the ball from the back.’

Yet Peacock, manager of the Under 17s, is not the caricature Sunday league football father either, and his team did not pass from the back. They lumped the ball forward, as if English football, and English footballers, had learned nothing.

Could this be because English football confuses education with imitation? We have grafted a system of management from Italy on to our senior team, so we believe Spanish values and culture are as easily absorbed at youth level.

Every successful coach is, to some extent, a magpie (Jose Mourinho’s ideas stem mainly from working with a Dutch management school at Barcelona), but to just pick up and drop thought processes according to whatever nation has the best footballers at the time is ludicrous.

If the French academy was worth copying following their World Cup win in 1998 it remains a good idea now, even if their current crop of footballers are not on a par with Spain.

Just because Barcelona’s Cantera school did not produce a European Championship-winning midfield until 2008 does not mean it was previously irrelevant.

Brooking now talks of Spain’s diminutive midfield as if one country has shown the way. But many in England have argued against this growing obsession with the gargantuan for a number of years, counselling that talent is being disregarded in favour of athletes of limited ability.

Players such as Claude Makelele and Javier Mascherano show that even the toughest tackling midfielders do not have to be hewn from a cliff face.

The secret of success for English football will never be found on some fact-finding mission to mainland Europe. At home is where the answer lies, but first we must dispense with the gimmicks and quick fixes.

Brooking’s homage to Catalonia, like those 66 skills coaches for schoolchildren, are all sound and no bite.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1191911/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Lets-copy-Spain-week-least.html

[Koparoo]

What an interesting thread this is. Love the contributions by royhendo (and I know he's posted it before but it's so insightful into one of the few really successful youth setups) and Manila Kop.

And as for Stanfo, keep on contributing, please. So few of us have any direct experience. We all love the ITKs in other areas... not sure why you're copping such stick.

RAWK seems to be gripped by PTT (pre-transfer tension) syndrome.

[mercury]

I know Martin Samuel is beyond the pale for some RAWKites, but there were some interesting points on the structural problems in the Academy system made in the middle of this article (in bold):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1191911/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Lets-copy-Spain-week-least.html

Exactly.  This is well discussed in another RAWK thread and it's time a good journo pick up this ultimate failing of FA  which I think in part, a large part, is due to the footballing tradition here for the hard men and a good tackle above skill and intelligence.

[hassinator]

I know Martin Samuel is beyond the pale for some RAWKites, but there were some interesting points on the structural problems in the Academy system made in the middle of this article (in bold):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1191911/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Lets-copy-Spain-week-least.html

i have to admit that when i started reading this i thought it was going to be typical daily mail ladling on the negativity but samuels makes some good points.  the bottom line for liverpool is that we're trying to do something about it and if we could indeed be more like barca or even man utd and aresenal we'd at least start to make some money from our youth development programme.  clearly badly needed in this summers window.

[hesbighesred]

I have tried to stay out of this thread as some people who know fuck all seem intent on saying anything Rafa does must be right, well we shall see on that front, as personal politics as well as the good of the club is at work here, believe me.

Stanfo, you've posted some awesome stuff on this, and I personally massively appreciate your input and the knowledge you've shared.

However, I've got to pull you up on this a bit - I don't doubt what you say, namely that there's personaly politics involved, but why do all the people connected, talking about this angle, always seem to do so from an angle that is distrustful of Rafa and defensive over the staff/system that went before?

Do you or the other critics have personal contact with Rafa? Have you got his side of the story in terms of any personal politics etc?

Because it seems to me that anyone connected with the 'old' regime is likely to be suspicious of Rafa, for good - but not necessarily right for the club - reasons.

The way I see it:

From day one Rafa has basically come in, taken one look at an established situation where a lot of people (and I'm not saying they aren't great people) have been working to a similar system for a long time, and understandably have both pride and vested interests in their work.

Rafa, foreign, somewhat aloof, hardly diplomatic in his approach sometimes, comes in and basically says: "This isn't working. I want the whole lot changed, and I will change it if and when I gain the input I want and should have."

This gets a lot of people's backs up, before long you get a bandwagon forming where stuff like 'What has Lucas done to deserve being in the team ahead of Spearing?' gets trotted out, (despite the complete absurdity of comparing a kid who can't get into Englnd's U21's to one who's captained Brazil's superior U20s while also captaining his club side to the Latin equivalent of the CL) basically to smear Rafa, imply that he doesn't value local talent, and that he himself is no good/flawed at developing/recognising youth talent.

In short there's an agenda...'personal politics' in other words, coming from both sides. Why do we have any reason whatsoever to believe that the staff you have such close contact with are acting more in the lad's interests then in their own interests? IE are they, or at least many of them not acting to save their jobs, preserving what they see as the 'right' way of doing things - but not really taking a rational look at what the academy has achieved compared to what it could and should have achieved?

Then on the other had we have Rafa. Rafa's own record with young players is by far the best of ANY member of our staff (certainly prior to Segura's appointment). No others are/were even close to having the direct involvement in bringing through good, top and world class players that Rafa has (including Heighway) - either as a youth coach, reserve coach or manager.

This from a country which has the best or certainly one of the best youth set ups in the world over the last 10 - 20 years or so (A set up Rafa was heavily involved with and understands inside-out), a country playing football of a type that Liverpool FC and its fans aspire to, while the UK on the whole is lagging tragically behind.

Look at the English kids coming through Arsenal's academy now compared to other clubs, now that Wenger's had enough time to develop them from 8-18 - they aren't just better than our kids now, but on the whole are vastly superior to any group of youngsters (over time) that we've had at any point in our history ever.

As for fears regarding any supposed preference for foreign talent, Rafa has repeatedly stated that given two players of equal talent, the local ones would get priority.

Do we have ANY reason to doubt Rafa about this? As far as I can tell Rafa has been true to his word on every single issue I can think of, not ONCE has he made a commitment that he hasn't fulfilled, or given an assessment of the team that wasn't absolutely bang on.

So, in that context, if Rafa is sacking a superb coach, but say one who is openly or even secretly critical of him, who voices that criticism to other staff and players and who has enough respect within the club for people to listen to him, why should Rafa not sack that person and bring in a coach who agrees with Rafa's overall vision and methods?

Fair enough, you could justify fears if Rafa had a habit of hiring 'yes' men, but that isn't true is it?

Pako, Sammy Lee, Pelligrino, McParland, McMahon, Segura...the links with Dalglish - these aren't 'yes' men, they aren't weak minded characters who blindly follow orders. These are strong, successful people in their own right, outspoken, intelligent and fiercly determined. Plus looking through that list you can hardly assume that a commitment to local talent is going to be any type of issue.

So, given Rafa's success, his awesome CV in youth development (which as I say is by far and away the most impressive at the club, withthe possible exception of Segura now), his track record of sticking by his word and achieving what he says he will...why would we have any reason not to trust him on youth development issues, even when it comes to sacking good coaches who he simply doesn't work with very well for whatever reason?

Not to mention that it isn't even Rafa who is doing the sackings, though he has input - it's McParland who's made the decisions on who should stay, go, and what changes to make, and it will be him heading up recruitment in the future.

Out of Rafa and the behind the scenes set up we've had for the last 20 years, I know who I'd rather trust, both on instinct and a rational assessment of the available facts.

I also think it's far better to lose some talent but have a crew all rowing our ship in the same direction than have more talented individuals all going in different directions.

[WesternRed]

Great thread - some very interesting points of view and topics to consider.  Keep it going, please, and thanks to everyone who is contributing...

[Crouser]

Mate, were U with me drinking coffee today, while I was talking almost the same thing?!

Nailed on, agree completely with this.

[Manila Kop]

Excellent post HBHR.  Reminded me of something I wrote on one of the other youth development debate threads:

Nocturn, giving Rafa power over the Academy is not the same as having absolutely no oversight over his activities.  From what we read in the papers, Rafa is asking for "more control" over the Academy - which gives us a wide leeway of interpretation.  Assuming that we take it to the most logical extreme, which is that Rafa wants to be involved in the formulation of Academy recruitment policies, training, staffing and the like - the Board will still have say over the most important matters i.e. if Rafa wanted to close the Academy down for example.

It's like a man was hired to be CEO of an ailing company.  The company used to be the leading firm in its industry but over the last few years its flow of profits has declined and its competitors have caught up because they've invested in newer, better products and more modern management processes.  The CEO's brief is to revive the company's fortunes and restore it to a position of leadership in its segment.  To make the revamp successful, the CEO should have the power to change whatever he sees fit in the company - with approval from the Board on the most significant changes.  However, the Board tells the CEO that while he has control over the manufacturing process, the research & development department remains outside his control - the same department where the flow of new products that can help revive profits will come from.  They're effectively tying one of the CEO's hands behind his back. 

That's what our Board is doing to Rafa - he's asked to revive Liverpool's dynasty, but over an important aspect in which we've fallen behind - our development of young, title-winning caliber players, he's being told that it's effectively none of his business.  To rub salt in, it's an area in which he has a lot of expertise and experience in.  It would be like General Motors hired the guy who developed the Prius from Toyota to be their CEO, but then tells him that he can't have any influence on GM's new car development because he just doesn't understand "GM way" of making them...the same "GM way" that's fallen behind the likes of Toyota in developing cutting edge new cars.

Stanfo, for the record, I enjoy reading all the fly-on-the-wall information you give us on the Academy.  I can certainly understand where you're coming from, and I do feel that some of what you've said has been misrepresented or misconstrued.  I do hope you keep posting your perspective on things, disagreements on their interpretation aside.

[hesbighesred]

Mate, were U with me drinking coffee today, while I was talking almost the same thing?!

Nailed on, agree completely with this.

NO, but I could murder a cup if your making one, ta love

[hesbighesred]

Excellent post HBHR.  Reminded me of something I wrote on one of the other youth development debate threads:

Stanfo, for the record, I enjoy reading all the fly-on-the-wall information you give us on the Academy.  I can certainly understand where you're coming from, and I do feel that some of what you've said has been misrepresented or misconstrued.  I do hope you keep posting your perspective on things, disagreements on their interpretation aside.

I remember that one - excellent post (as usual).

I also want to make clear that Stanfo is MORE than entitled to his opinion and to share it, and has every right to be concerned and express those concerns. I've found his posts to be largely excellent and massively informative - but there is also a consistent perspective that strikes me as one sided, so I wanted to address that. Doesn't make Stanfo wrong, and as I say I think your an idiot if you don't pay attention to what he's said (not least if you're a non-match going OOT like me), but that doesn't mean aspects of what he's said can't be challenged.

So I hope you don't take any of that personally Stanfo because I'd be gutted if you did stop posting.

It's also you (or people like you) that I'm very much hoping will track the academy changes over time - for example if you're back on here in a year saying how happy you are with the academy then we can be fairly sure that's some damn good news (given that you've been skeptical) wheras if you come back on in a year and say that things are much worse than they were and that you're seriously worried, I will most certainly be listening, and I would most certainly criticise those involved, including Rafa.

[Koparoo]

Mate, were U with me drinking coffee today, while I was talking almost the same thing?!

Nailed on, agree completely with this.

phew - that is one hell of an impressive post HBHR - I'd vote for you after that speech. I just kept nodding as I read that.

First rate posting, sir!



(I find this thread my only real distraction from endlessly trawling over the Summer Transfer Thread...)

[hassinator]

well this is who is coming up to melwood according to the official site:

Five of the players who helped Liverpool reach the FA Youth Cup final last season have been promoted to Melwood.
Lauri Dalla Valle (17), Christopher Buchtmann (17), David Amoo (18), Nathan Eccleston (18) and Alex Kacaniklic (17) will now train full-time with John McMahon's reserves.
 
Also making the step up is last season's U18s goalkeeper Christopher Oldfield (18), who didn't play in the Youth Cup but joined the reserves on their recent trip to Holland.
 
Finnish hitman Dalla Valla scored 20 goals in 28 appearances for the U18s last term, while left-back Buchtmann was a star as Germany U17 won the European Championships last month.
 
Goalscorer Eccleston divided his time between Melwood and the Academy in 2008-09 but will now hope to feature regularly alongside the likes of Krisztian Nemeth and Daniel Pacheco.
 
Former Millwall prodigy Amoo is a powerful right winger who tore defences apart during last season's Cup run, while Swedish hopeful Kacaniklic impressed on the other wing.
 
Meanwhile, we can reveal the names of those who will start scholarships at the Academy next term. They are: Karl Clair, Conor David Coady, Adam Ryan Dawson, John Flanagan, Marcus Giglio, Michael Ihiekwe, Matthew Lawrence McGiveron, Craig Roddan, Alex Whittle, Andre Wisdom, Aaron King and Robert Maloney.
 

[Johnny Foreigner]

It's easy to hold up Barcelona as a benchmark and say "Look how easy it is to find kids in your own back yard!", well first and foremost they have a population of 1,600,000 that's 3 times what we have.

I'm not really sure if the population and surrounding areas has too much influence.. What strikes me when I have seen the liverpool youngsters action is that they are as a group - very little comfortable with the ball and making wrong decisions..

I am a little involved in the local club and we have about 100 kids in the 7-to-11 range. Its low-profile and not too competitive and the coaches are mostly dads that are involved. Out of those 100 kids, there is 7 year old and one 8 year that is amazing, both in terms of technical skills and vision. They spend a couple of hours every day playing for fun..

Most likely their talent will be wasted due to lack of coaching and envirornment needed for excelling. However, I can't help thinking about whether how good these kids could have been if they had been picked up by for instance Barca or someone else from an early age..

[brunny]

Lauri Dalla Valle (17), Christopher Buchtmann (17), David Amoo (18), Nathan Eccleston (18) and Alex Kacaniklic (17) will now train full-time with John McMahon's reserves.
 
Also making the step up is last season's U18s goalkeeper Christopher Oldfield (18), who didn't play in the Youth Cup but joined the reserves on their recent trip to Holland.
 

Which have actually been part of the academy for a significant time?

[shelovesyou]

well this is who is coming up to melwood according to the official site:

Five of the players who helped Liverpool reach the FA Youth Cup final last season have been promoted to Melwood.
Lauri Dalla Valle (17), Christopher Buchtmann (17), David Amoo (18), Nathan Eccleston (18) and Alex Kacaniklic (17) will now train full-time with John McMahon's reserves.
 
Also making the step up is last season's U18s goalkeeper Christopher Oldfield (18), who didn't play in the Youth Cup but joined the reserves on their recent trip to Holland.
 
Finnish hitman Dalla Valla scored 20 goals in 28 appearances for the U18s last term, while left-back Buchtmann was a star as Germany U17 won the European Championships last month.
 
Goalscorer Eccleston divided his time between Melwood and the Academy in 2008-09 but will now hope to feature regularly alongside the likes of Krisztian Nemeth and Daniel Pacheco.
 
Former Millwall prodigy Amoo is a powerful right winger who tore defences apart during last season's Cup run, while Swedish hopeful Kacaniklic impressed on the other wing.
 
Meanwhile, we can reveal the names of those who will start scholarships at the Academy next term. They are: Karl Clair, Conor David Coady, Adam Ryan Dawson, John Flanagan, Marcus Giglio, Michael Ihiekwe, Matthew Lawrence McGiveron, Craig Roddan, Alex Whittle, Andre Wisdom, Aaron King and Robert Maloney.
 

Good news.

[Joe Rogans Chin]

Which have actually been part of the academy for a significant time?

Id say they have been at the academy 2 years tops.

Point is, the likes of the Arsenal team that beat us this year in the FA youth cup have played together and been academy trained since they where 11 year olds.

We can really only start to judge the changes Rafa makes to the academy once a group of kids that his new coaches, coach all the way through the academy system and age groups. That would mean maybe 6 or 7 years time

[Maldini]

Oldfield's been there years, Eccleston's the longest of the others, he's been there since 14, the rest joined at 16

[hesbighesred]

I'm not really sure if the population and surrounding areas has too much influence.. What strikes me when I have seen the liverpool youngsters action is that they are as a group - very little comfortable with the ball and making wrong decisions..

It makes a massive difference, without question.

Current English rules state that up to a certain age, a player has to live within a 60 minute drive around the academy, then up to 90 past another age, then only at 16 (I think) can you go wherever you like.

Now do the math - that gives a London club about 12million kids to pick from, a Birmingham club 3-4 million, a Manchester one 3-4 million, while Mersyside has a population of what, a million at most?

Then divide those numbers by the number of clubs at the top level, and you end up with the London clubs having (Chels, Arse, Ham, Spurs, the others don't have nearly that kind of draw) with about 3million each to pick from, Manchester and Brum clubs between 1.5 and 2million, while Merseyside gets about 500k, tops (probably less because Manchester itself is within the drive radius, and half of that radius is in the sea - also a problem for Sunderland).

I don't think it's coincidence that the most productive academies at the moment are probably those of Villa, Man U, Man City, Arsenal and West Ham.

Real and Barca, on the other hand, don't have those restrictions. They get to pick from all of Spain, plus looser immigration and work-permit laws mean that it's much, much, much easier for them to get in young Latin and African kids, who will also count as 'Spanish' after three years...wheras in England that process takes five years.

-----------------------------

Really good news about the academy promotions. Encouraging as well that it's the players pretty much all the ITK's and ressie/youth twitchers have told us to keep an eye out for. Shame some of them were probably held up by the internal politics but at least the situation seems to have been resolved pretty quickly.

I expect this is the prologue to a big cull of the reserve team - otherwise there's surely no point promoting so many?

Unless of course we've figured out some way to play a LOT more reserve matches next season.

[Manila Kop]

I expect this is the prologue to a big cull of the reserve team - otherwise there's surely no point promoting so many?

Unless of course we've figured out some way to play a LOT more reserve matches next season.

There will be a cull, no doubt about it.  The likes of Lindfeld, Antwi, Brouwer, Mihaylovich, etc.  Hobbs and Adjarevic already out the door.

Roy did mention over on the Youth/Reserve thread we're looking at joining another reserve league, didn't state his source though.  With the cull plus joining two leagues hopefully the ressies get a full season programme going similar to the B sides in Spain.

[Degs]

It makes a massive difference, without question.

Current English rules state that up to a certain age, a player has to live within a 60 minute drive around the academy, then up to 90 past another age, then only at 16 (I think) can you go wherever you like.

Now do the math - that gives a London club about 12million kids to pick from, a Birmingham club 3-4 million, a Manchester one 3-4 million, while Mersyside has a population of what, a million at most?

Then divide those numbers by the number of clubs at the top level, and you end up with the London clubs having (Chels, Arse, Ham, Spurs, the others don't have nearly that kind of draw) with about 3million each to pick from, Manchester and Brum clubs between 1.5 and 2million, while Merseyside gets about 500k, tops (probably less because Manchester itself is within the drive radius, and half of that radius is in the sea - also a problem for Sunderland).

I don't think it's coincidence that the most productive academies at the moment are probably those of Villa, Man U, Man City, Arsenal and West Ham.

Real and Barca, on the other hand, don't have those restrictions. They get to pick from all of Spain, plus looser immigration and work-permit laws mean that it's much, much, much easier for them to get in young Latin and African kids, who will also count as 'Spanish' after three years...wheras in England that process takes five years.

-----------------------------

Really good news about the academy promotions. Encouraging as well that it's the players pretty much all the ITK's and ressie/youth twitchers have told us to keep an eye out for. Shame some of them were probably held up by the internal politics but at least the situation seems to have been resolved pretty quickly.

I expect this is the prologue to a big cull of the reserve team - otherwise there's surely no point promoting so many?

Unless of course we've figured out some way to play a LOT more reserve matches next season.

I'll quote meself from earlier on in this thread as it relates again here, being located in the North-West it's amazing we get any half decent kids at all, with the amount of competition, just look at the difference between us and Barca.  In the entire 7 million population region of Catalonia there are 2 major teams, Espanyol and Barcelona.

It's easy to hold up Barcelona as a benchmark and say "Look how easy it is to find kids in your own back yard!", well first and foremost they have a population of 1,600,000 that's 3 times what we have.

Then you look at the wider area, North West England has an area of 14,165 km², whereas Catalonia has an area of 32,114 km² so their "local" pool of talent is twice the size of what we have geographically.

The population is shaded by the Catalans by only around 500 thousand but then you look at how many teams will compete in the top level of football in their country from both Catalonia and North-West England, next season.

Catalonia
FC Barcelona - 1st in La Liga 2008/2009
RCD Espanyol - Currently 12th after season long relegation fight

North-West England
Manchester United - 1st in Premier League 2008/2009
Liverpool - 2nd
Everton - 5th
Manchester City - 10th
Wigan Athletic - 11th
Bolton Wanderers - 13th
Blackburn Rovers - 15th
Burnley - Play Off Winners

Then you have the ease of which Barca can bring in non-EU players like Dos Santos, and Messi (chances are we wouldn't have been able to land them due to work permits) and the attractive destination of a Spanish speaking country, similar culture, and nice weather.


Barcelona have an excellent Youth System but it's as much down to geography as it is good coaching, there is relatively speaking nobody around to compete with Barcelona for young players.  If we had the same catchment as them we'd have Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, etc. all on our books and not the Mancs.

They have a population of 7 million people all to themselves.

I look forward to our new coaching staff coming in as by playing the way the 1st team manager wants them to increases the likelihood of them reaching the first team - but don't be expecting Barcelona cantera style youth teams coming through even if we get the best coaches in the world.  The north west of England is probably the most dense areas in Europe (barring probably Moscow) for top level football clubs.

[harrytrow]

phew - that is one hell of an impressive post HBHR - I'd vote for you after that speech. I just kept nodding as I read that.

First rate posting, sir!



(I find this thread my only real distraction from endlessly trawling over the Summer Transfer Thread...)

I second that totally

[Johnny Foreigner]

It makes a massive difference, without question.

Current English rules state that up to a certain age, a player has to live within a 60 minute drive around the academy, then up to 90 past another age, then only at 16 (I think) can you go wherever you like.

Now do the math - that gives a London club about 12million kids to pick from, a Birmingham club 3-4 million, a Manchester one 3-4 million, while Mersyside has a population of what, a million at most?

Then divide those numbers by the number of clubs at the top level, and you end up with the London clubs having (Chels, Arse, Ham, Spurs, the others don't have nearly that kind of draw) with about 3million each to pick from, Manchester and Brum clubs between 1.5 and 2million, while Merseyside gets about 500k, tops (probably less because Manchester itself is within the drive radius, and half of that radius is in the sea - also a problem for Sunderland).

I don't think it's coincidence that the most productive academies at the moment are probably those of Villa, Man U, Man City, Arsenal and West Ham.

Real and Barca, on the other hand, don't have those restrictions. They get to pick from all of Spain, plus looser immigration and work-permit laws mean that it's much, much, much easier for them to get in young Latin and African kids, who will also count as 'Spanish' after three years...wheras in England that process takes five years.

-----------------------------

Really good news about the academy promotions. Encouraging as well that it's the players pretty much all the ITK's and ressie/youth twitchers have told us to keep an eye out for. Shame some of them were probably held up by the internal politics but at least the situation seems to have been resolved pretty quickly.

I expect this is the prologue to a big cull of the reserve team - otherwise there's surely no point promoting so many?

Unless of course we've figured out some way to play a LOT more reserve matches next season.

My point being is that if you compare the production of good 17-18-19 years old which is ready for the big stage with any production process, it doesn't really matter how good or how much raw materials you have if your plant/production process is shit..

I'll try to look up the video but there was this documentary a few years back on how Ajax where peaking in terms of getting quality players through, involving auditions of 7-8 year olds. I agree on the lack of competition/geography of course, but that was just 110 % impressive how did they work with 10-year olds..

The critical question for me would be : If you take 1000 random kids from Copenhagen, barcelona and Liverpool, and put them through their local club - Brondby, Barca and Liverpool - where would you place your bets that the best 18-year olds will come through ?

I don't believe in differences in anatomy, population, mental characteristics etc, but place the difference entirely down to how early you start, your coaches and the whole set-up..

[Degs]

The critical question for me would be : If you take 1000 random kids from Copenhagen, barcelona and Liverpool, and put them through their local club - Brondby, Barca and Liverpool - where would you place your bets that the best 18-year olds will come through ?

I don't believe in differences in anatomy, population, mental characteristics etc, but place the difference entirely down to how early you start, your coaches and the whole set-up..

But this goes back to my point, you say if you take 1,000 kids from Barcelona and Liverpool.

Well the likes of Xavi and Iniesta wouldn't be included in that.

Xavi comes from Terrassa, a town 20 miles away from Barcelona (that would be like us getting a lad from Wigan)

Iniesta comes from Fuentealbilla, which isn't even in Catalonia but in Albacete, 288 miles away, again that's the equivalent to us having a local lad from the south west of Ireland, Jersey, or Inverness (I've checked all these distances by the way).

Puyol comes from La Pobla de Segur, 121 miles from Barcelona, the equivalent would be us having a youngster from Hereford or Newcastle.

Bojan was born 85 miles away.  The distance between Liverpool and Birmingham.

The players who come from BARCELONA and would be included in your pool are Victor Valdes, Pique,  and Busquets (just about). From their current team.

Considering the population of the city of Barcelona is 3 times that of Liverpool that's not impressive.

I don't believe in differences in anatomy, population, mental characteristics etc, but place the difference entirely down to how early you start, your coaches and the whole set-up..

Now do you believe that with a huge catchment area as Barcelona, look at the distribution of la liga teams below, is a HUGE difference.



Barca and Espanyol are the 2 in the top right

Now compare it to us, a city with 1/3 of the population yet look how many clubs we have to contend with:

[img width= height=]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e5/2008-09_Premier_League_team_locations.svg/486px-2008-09_Premier_League_team_locations.svg.png[/img]


The lack of competition and the spread of big clubs around Spain means that Barcelona have a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE catchment area.