Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Mutton Geoff]

You're allowed to slag off someone who's black, female or both. 

I take it you have no ill felling towards Theresa May or Robert Mugabe.

 i have or had in Mugabe's case problems with their policies and actioning them rather than specifically them as individuals.

It just seems to me that other than Corbyn , Abbott takes more flak or abuse than any other member of the shadow cabinet and i just wonder why that is ?

[Ray K]

This letter in the Times is very moving...

We don’t perhaps deserve this level of compassion

I like that Jens Lehmann is clearly one of the most significant Germans of our time, along with the probable next Chancellor, and the chairman of Daimler.

[killer-heels]

i have or had in Mugabe's case problems with their policies and actioning them rather than specifically them as individuals.

It just seems to me that other than Corbyn , Abbott takes more flak or abuse than any other member of the shadow cabinet and i just wonder why that is ?

Because she is really, really bad.

[No666]

Chris Grey hit the nail on the head with that character study of May and Corbyn.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Because she is really, really bad.

some really struggle to understand this, especially when it comes to minorities who are shit, trying to make out like it’s something else, ditto when trying to defend the intellectually challenged like burgon and williamson

Agree that the debate format is terrible for her, particularly when she's defending a line she doesn't entirely support. It was very uncomfortable to watch last night initially because she a) got a bit prickly at a couple of points about Corbyn (she'd ridiculously defensive on his behalf) and b) was trying to defend the indefensible on wanting to talk while refusing to talk. But it was very poor of Bruce to get the facts wrong about the opinion polls, which immediately roused the nastier elements in the crowd - "she's got her numbers wrong again!" when she actually hadn't. After that, Oakeshott and the crowd smelled blood and it was nasty.

But I think Abbott would actually be working to her strengths with a department brief and working on detailed policy. Probably not at the home office, but there are areas she's knowledgeable and committed to.

one poll has labour up the others all have a Tory lead so bruce isn’t really wrong there

[Riquende]

I like that Jens Lehmann is clearly one of the most significant Germans of our time, along with the probable next Chancellor, and the chairman of Daimler.

It's good they were able to write all that out in Lehmann's terms.

Sorry.

[Mutton Geoff]

Sorry mate but the reason I am complaining about her, as absolutely lovely a human being as she is and smart she may be, is that she comes across at important times like a complete fucking idiot and helps no end to drive the idea the labour party doesn't have a clue what it is doing as much as anyone at a time when they should be smashing the tory's out the park while they sit there like lame ducks.

I fucking detest people like Isabel Oakeshott who are akin to and as dangerous as Frottage in that she has absolutely detestable, inhumane ideologies but she is incredibly good at talking and convincing people she is right. Abbott was the polar opposite last night and unfortunately when you are trying to convince people you have to be able to not sit there like a rabbit in the headlights, she has been proven time and time again to be incapable of convincing anyone anything other than she is not built up for that, as are others.

That's what I am angry about, it is that anyone in the country can see our NHS, policing, education, transport etc etc etc etc are being decimated and these facts should be smashed home by the labour party and Labour MP's should be having an absolute fucking field day in such arenas. Instead right now with the country to shit, brexit capitulating, people are actually, consciously putting blame and focusing on Corbyn and labour. How the fuck does that even happen?? how the fuck is that even possible?? It's fucking madness and infuriating. When the captain and his mates are leading such a losing campaign with such easy targets in from of them it's clear why so many people think they are not fit for purpose.

It's like 8 years on and with the top six all bankrupt and the premier league for the taking we still have Hodgson leading Salah, Mane, VVD and co into a mid-table finish season after season. That's just a tiny bit of the nightmare we are in.

The problem is when you mention the homeless the vulnerable, the NHS and Education as being the main priorities you get told Brexit is far more important  right now, we all know Corbyn and the party have some brilliant policies to improve our society and somewhat rebalance the structure of it, but it is difficult for him and them because when he speaks about these subjects people here and elsewhere have a go at them because they are not addressing Brexit instead.

For them Brexit is the only show in town and the rest i suppose can wait. Which not the way i see it.

Just to answer another poster who complained that there was a debate about Palestine at the conference which is linked to our foreign policies by the way.  To that all i could add is, 'as bad as you think it is here i doubt anyone would want to move to Palestine', and conferences are designed to debate topics such as that.

[classycarra]

It's good they were able to write all that out in Lehmann's terms.

Sorry.

[Zeb]

Chris Grey hit the nail on the head with that character study of May and Corbyn.

Yeah. Think the Labour truce is about to be broken if Allin-Khan is now going public asking for leadership. Evening Standard.

[redmark]

Call me stupid, but isn't the Tory party already irrevocably split? At every level? Even May is an at heart remainer forcing us out?
 

No. As you say, a remainer is trying to push through Brexit. There are only a handful of Tories prepared to rebel for remain - and they'll vote against a Brexit deal, not against the government in a vote of confidence. The Tories are very good at appearing utterly divided without actually splitting.

[realtarragona]

one poll has labour up the others all have a Tory lead so bruce isn’t really wrong there

That's not true - https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster

[Libertine]

Jeremy Corbyn could face up to a dozen resignations from the Labour frontbench if the party backs a second referendum as a way out of the Brexit crisis.

Serious question - would anyone notice their absence?

[redmark]

one poll has labour up the others all have a Tory lead so bruce isn’t really wrong there

Where?
https://pollofpolls.eu/GB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

ComRes, Labour +2
Kantar, Labour +3
YouGov, Tory +5
BMG level
Survation, Labour +3

All Abbott actually claimed was "the polls have been neck and neck for a while now".

Seriously - and I've criticised Abbott (and Corbyn) plenty - how was she factually incorrect?

The only reading of the polls that suggests a consistent Tory lead is if you ignore the last week, and count a run of a month in which YouGov (who consistently show more favourable to Tory, presumably a different model rather than anything sinister) published four polls showing a Tory lead, and Opinium one in which they were neck and neck, and nobody else conducted any.

[filopastry]

Where?
https://pollofpolls.eu/GB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

ComRes, Labour +2
Kantar, Labour +3
YouGov, Tory +5
BMG level
Survation, Labour +3

All Abbott actually claimed was "the polls have been neck and neck for a while now".

Seriously - and I've criticised Abbott (and Corbyn) plenty - how was she factually incorrect?

I didn't see it so can't comment on what was said, but I would totally agree with anyone who said the polls have been neck and neck for a while now, some outliers along the way but neither side has been able to build a consistent meaningful lead across all pollsters for a while now.

[Andy]

It just seems to me that other than Corbyn , Abbott takes more flak or abuse than any other member of the shadow cabinet and i just wonder why that is ?

It is because she is terrible in major interviews. She gets figures wrong and when cornered in an argument, puts on a condescending attitude to avoid the question.

My buddy lives in Hackney and he says she is a very good local MP, which I can well believe. I'm sure she has faced a lot of hardship when fighting her way up the ladder - she obviously shouldn't have to, and fair play to her for doing it.

Despite that, if someone comes across badly on the national stage then you have to call them on it, no matter what their background/gender/ethnicity. That is true for all MPs, and the list of useless idiots in all parties is huge.

[No666]

Yeah. Think the Labour truce is about to be broken if Allin-Khan is now going public asking for leadership. Evening Standard.

She's not wrong:
Ms Allin-Khan said Labour could not afford to be “out of tune” with millions of young voters opposed to being taken out of the EU. “We are a party that  galvanised the vote of young people across the country at the last election,” she said. “These young people want us to boldly stand up and speak out for them.”
I liked the David Lammy quote. Hadn't registered that before:
Ex-minister David Lammy said this week that if Mr Corbyn “sits on the fence, I’m afraid he is going to get splinters in places he doesn’t want”.

[redmark]

I didn't see it so can't comment on what was said, but I would totally agree with anyone who said the polls have been neck and neck for a while now, some outliers along the way but neither side has been able to build a consistent meaningful lead across all pollsters for a while now.

I can't remember if Oakshott or Abbott were speaking and mentioned the polling, but the other interjected. Abbott said the 'neck and neck' thing, then Bruce incorrectly 'corrected' her. That (given the famous interview) set off the crowd with glee at Abbott getting numbers wrong, when she hadn't.

Of course, there's a strong argument that Labour should be about 20 points clear in the current circumstances. But it was very unfortunate that a factually inaccurate intervention from the chair prompted a descent into some nastiness for the MP who receives more online abuse than any.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Where?
https://pollofpolls.eu/GB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

ComRes, Labour +2
Kantar, Labour +3
YouGov, Tory +5
BMG level
Survation, Labour +3

All Abbott actually claimed was "the polls have been neck and neck for a while now".

Seriously - and I've criticised Abbott (and Corbyn) plenty - how was she factually incorrect?

The only reading of the polls that suggests a consistent Tory lead is if you ignore the last week, and count a run of a month in which YouGov (who consistently show more favourable to Tory, presumably a different model rather than anything sinister) published four polls showing a Tory lead, and Opinium one in which they were neck and neck, and nobody else conducted any.

ah, last one I saw was the survation poll,yougov are the only ones seemingly polling regularly right now

[redmark]

Found a clip - I don't agree with the BBC-bias element of the post, but the clip shows how badly the thing played.

Oakshott was talking about Labour being "miles behind" in the polls. Abbott said "actually, about level pegging", Bruce said "You're behind Diane. Definitely".

Cue audience and the Tory minister laughter at poor thicko Diane getting her figures wrong again. When she hadn't. The audience reaction to Abbott declined after that, and I thought she visibily shrank from the debate too. When someone said later that Abbott in charge of policing and security was more dangerous than Brexit, Bruce asked her if she wanted to respond and she shook her head.

https://twitter.com/rickwookie/status/1086057395497902080

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The problem is when you mention the homeless the vulnerable, the NHS and Education as being the main priorities you get told Brexit is far more important  right now, we all know Corbyn and the party have some brilliant policies to improve our society and somewhat rebalance the structure of it, but it is difficult for him and them because when he speaks about these subjects people here and elsewhere have a go at them because they are not addressing Brexit instead.

For them Brexit is the only show in town and the rest i suppose can wait. Which not the way i see it.

Just to answer another poster who complained that there was a debate about Palestine at the conference which is linked to our foreign policies by the way.  To that all i could add is, 'as bad as you think it is here i doubt anyone would want to move to Palestine', and conferences are designed to debate topics such as that.

Talk me through how you see Brexit affecting the homeless the vulnerable, the NHS and Education

Give me some examples. Factor in, if you don't mind, the "Bonfire of Rights, Red tape and Regulations". Also Factor in, if you would be ever so kind the affect on GDP.


Thanks awfully.

[mkingdon]

Abbott and Corbyn no matter how capable and noble they may be are toxic and are making Labour unelectable. The media have decided that is the agenda and they will never escape it now.

Like it or not, to be elected you need to have a good polished media image and be able to speak clearly, with purpose and to sound like you know what you are talking about, even if you don't (see endless Tory examples).

Even Tom Watson came over better than Corbyn ever has when he was summing up the no confidence debate.

Whilst they remain as such visible faces of Labour the Tories can literally do anything and remain in power.

[OneTouchFooty]

Found a clip - I don't agree with the BBC-bias element of the post, but the clip shows how badly the thing played.

Oakshott was talking about Labour being "miles behind" in the polls. Abbott said "actually, about level pegging", Bruce said "You're behind Diane. Definitely".

Cue audience and the Tory minister laughter at poor thicko Diane getting her figures wrong again. When she hadn't. The audience reaction to Abbott declined after that, and I thought she visibily shrank from the debate too. When someone said later that Abbott in charge of policing and security was more dangerous than Brexit, Bruce asked her if she wanted to respond and she shook her head.

https://twitter.com/rickwookie/status/1086057395497902080

I agree, making her a figure of fun is seen as acceptable and the amount of shit she gets is disproportionate to the gaffes she’s made. When the likes of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and David Davis can talk utter shite, perform fuck up after fuck up and look utterly incompetent it’s all laughed off and has no impact of their reputation, they can even be in the frame for the fucking PM job.

Abbott has made stupid statements and embarrassed herself but she gets vile abuse for it and is forever hounded for it. Imagine if she had performed like Chris Grayling! The media would have hounded her out a job long ago but this daft c*nt can go from job to job and it’s all a bit of lark that he’s useless. Massive  double standards going on and I’m not her biggest but I see the flak she takes compared to others is incredible.

I believe she’s a genuine person and well intentioned but she’s unfortunately been promoted way above her skill level,  she’s a perfectly fine MP for her constituency but circumstances have put her way out of her depth.

[Kekule]

What pisses me off most about the Leavers is that IF we crash out with a No Deal, they will never ever accept any personal responsibility.  It will be the EU and johnny foreigner punishing the grand old UK for daring to stand up to them.  They will look on the misery they have wrought, and probably will experience themselves, and just say "this is all the EU's fault."

Don’t forget remainers, sorry “remoaners” ( ), if we hadn’t been telling them all along that it would be a disaster the EU would, for some unknown reason, have offered the U.K. government everything they wanted, and more.  Apparently the EU would have been incapable of figuring it out for themselves, and we let the cat out of the bag. Or something.

To be honest I’m not quite sure how it works, because I switch off halfway through being blamed for it, but there’s definitely some of them who seem think it’s remain voters fault.

[Jiminy Cricket]

That took me googling her, but it's great.

I liked this:

"As for the more provisional wing of the People’s Vote, we no longer need to computer-model the answer to the question: what would happen if you gave everyone on Henman Hill crystal meth?"

My tastes are more simple. I liked her use of the word, 'betwatted'.

[OneTouchFooty]

The travesty of this whole thing in regards to QT, is that the likes of Anand Menon (Professor of European Politics and Foreign Affairs at King's College London)  from last night plus the many other academics and experts like him have been criminally underused on political panel shows in favour of panto characters like Frottage, Oakeshott, Hartley-Brewer, Owen Jones, Ash Sarkar etc. or partisan MPs and representatives of thinktanks in the name of “balance”.

They always have zero relevant academic or professional experience in matters of EU law, international trade, economics etc. which are absolutely pertinent to our understandings of Brexit/No Deal etc. but are wheeled out because they make good TV,  arguing and shouting over each other or sounding off ridiculous bombastic statements and slogans to fire up audiences.

Or if they do make it on they are rendered impotent, as they get shouted down or are ridiculed as experts and have their credentials questioned by no-nothings c*nts like Oakeshott who get massive amounts of leeway to disrupt debates and turn it into juvenile slanging matches. 

[redbyrdz]

Is exactly right.

However obviously everyone would then vote against the deal in an attempt to have article 50 revoked and Brexit cancelled. And that would be very dangerous - we could have mass riots and extreme right wing politics would get a massive boost. I voted remain, but honestly if no deal is agreed and we cant get an extension then it has to be a no deal brexit, however painful.

I could be wrong mind. I am just fearful of what will happen if Parliament cancels brexit in the minds of the populace. The only way to cancel Brexit should be through a second referendum imo.

There won't be riots in the streets. The most common characteristic of the leavers is that they don't understand and don't care, as long as 'someone will sort it'. The average leaver will moan and call into the local radio station and then crawl back under their rock.

Its amazing though that the brexiteers in power get away with these threats of violence and civil unrest. Should be charged with inciting terrorism.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Chris Grey worth reading as ever. Blunt.

Spoiler

Just a couple of snippets.

[close]

I agree with his points about the resultant crisis of a No-Deal Brexit. I wrote something not totally dissimilar a weeks ago.

I'm not sure if you agreed with me or not in the above (a bit of both, I suspect). And I am probably reciprocating here:

Certainly, Remainers are more polite. We do - in the main - use argument. We - generally - do not abuse our interlocutors, stalk, assault or kill them. But if there is a Brexit, especially a No-Deal Brexit, things will change. Not only will many Remainers become far more militant, they will be joined by many - already militant - Leavers who only belatedly understand the consequences of leaving the EU. I would argue that if Brexit occurs, the level of civil unrest will be far greater than if remain. The reason for this is quite simple to understand: if we remain, we will retain economic stability; if we leave, the economic shock will hit most people very hard and they will be very angry. We had better believe that there will be riots if we leave, particularly in the event of a No-Deal Brexit.*

* Note: I am not arguing in support of the WA.

[gemofabird]

Abbott and Corbyn no matter how capable and noble they may be are toxic and are making Labour unelectable. The media have decided that is the agenda and they will never escape it now.

Like it or not, to be elected you need to have a good polished media image and be able to speak clearly, with purpose and to sound like you know what you are talking about, even if you don't (see endless Tory examples).

Even Tom Watson came over better than Corbyn ever has when he was summing up the no confidence debate.

Whilst they remain as such visible faces of Labour the Tories can literally do anything and remain in power.

And eat a bacon sandwich

[Jshooters]

What pisses me off most about the Leavers is that IF we crash out with a No Deal, they will never ever accept any personal responsibility.  It will be the EU and johnny foreigner punishing the grand old UK for daring to stand up to them.  They will look on the misery they have wrought, and probably will experience themselves, and just say "this is all the EU's fault."

Or they'll lie about their involvement:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-turkey-eu-referendum-vote-leave-campaign-michael-gove-a8734296.html

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has denied talking about Turkey during the Brexit referendum campaign, despite having warned on several occasions in the run-up to the vote that Turkish immigration posed a threat to the UK.

Answering questions during a speech in Staffordshire, the former foreign secretary claimed he “didn’t say anything about Turkey in the referendum...I didn’t say a thing about Turkey”.

But during the referendum campaign, Mr Johnson discussed the issue of immigration from Turkey numerous times, including writing to then prime minister David Cameron to warn him about the issue.

The Vote Leave campaign, of which Mr Johnson was a prominent member, also repeatedly warned voters that the UK faced the prospect of up to 77 million Turks – the entire population of Turkey – coming to the UK if the country was allowed to join the EU.

Speaking after delivering a wide-ranging speech that is likely be seen as a relaunch of his Conservative leadership ambitions, Mr Johnson denied having mentioned Turkey at all during the Brexit campaign.


 

Asked whether his claims that up to 80m Turks could enter the UK was evidence that he would “say anything just to win an election – in this case, the Conservative leadership election”, he replied: “Actually, I didn’t say anything about Turkey in the referendum. I didn’t say a thing about Turkey.”

“I think anybody who has followed my utterances over the last 20 years would know that I’ve always been in the camp of those who defend and support [immigration].”

Pushed on whether he was “disowning” the comments he made in 2016, he said: ”Since I made no remarks I can’t disown them. I didn’t make any remarks about Turkey.”


In April 2016, Mr Johnson warned: “I am very pro-Turkish but what I certainly can’t imagine is a situation in which 77 million of my fellow Turks and those of Turkish origin can come here without any checks at all. That is mad – that won’t work.”

And in a joint letter with fellow Brexiteer Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove in June 2016, just a week before the referendum, he wrote to Mr Cameron to insist that the only way to protect the UK from mass immigration from Turkey was to leave the EU.

The letter said: “Despite the rapidly accelerating pace of accession negotiations, ‘In’ campaigners maintain that Turkey ‘is not an issue in this referendum and it shouldn’t be’.

“Others assert that the UK has ‘a veto’ on Turkish accession. This claim is obviously artificial given the government’s commitment to Turkish accession at the earliest possible opportunity.

“If the government cannot give this guarantee, the public will draw the reasonable conclusion that the only way to avoid having common borders with Turkey is to vote Leave and take back control on 23 June.”

The Vote Leave campaign also included prominent references to Turkey on many of its campaign materials.


One online advert asked: “Turkey’s 76 millon people are joining the EU – good news???”.

And a campaign poster said: “Turkey (population 76 million) is joining the EU. Vote Leave, take back control.”

Responding to Mr Johnson’s latest claims, Labour MP Virendra Sharma, a supporter of the Best for Britain campaign, said: “Boris puts the moron in oxymoron. He’s now trying to act the great liberal by championing migration, after shamelessly pushing anti-Turkish messages as a leader of the Vote Leave campaign.

“But the government must love it when he gets up and gives these speeches. He’s a helpful clown, distracting from the government’s failures by pushing a no deal that parliament won’t let happen.

“It’s time to stop giving his ill-thought through ideas oxygen, and hand the Brexit decision back to the public through a people’s vote.”

[PaulF]

And eat a bacon sandwich

Is that a Corbyn reference or a Cameron one?

[killer-heels]

If there is a second referendum, should Remain have a manifesto?

[redmark]

Is that a Corbyn reference or a Cameron one?

Miliband

[classycarra]

If there is a second referendum, should Remain have a manifesto?

Why don't you just save us the dance and make your point?

[Mutton Geoff]

Talk me through how you see Brexit affecting the homeless the vulnerable, the NHS and Education

Give me some examples. Factor in, if you don't mind, the "Bonfire of Rights, Red tape and Regulations". Also Factor in, if you would be ever so kind the affect on GDP.


Thanks awfully.

Andy put it this way, people have been dying on our streets in greater numbers than ever before and people are in greater poverty than for at least the last couple of decades the vulnerable have never been so badly looked after in our society, the NHS and Education are practically on their knees and yet all the focus is that if you dare to broach any of these matters and bring them to the general publics attention you are told why are you talking about that when we have Brexit.

So for me Andy for the last few years the immediate crisis situations in our society have been placed on a back burner just so everyone can obsess about what is a political decision that will probably effect everyone in society eventually but not right now.

And also by obsessing on brexit May has had a free pass to get through any draconian law she wishes.

When the labour party try hold her to task in the media all they get from the media and others is why arn't you talking about Brexit.

[killer-heels]

Why don't you just save us the dance and make your point?

The point is that there is this drive for a second vote but if it happened and Remain won, what comes next? Do we expect the matter to be settled when its unlikely? Could it be settled if there was an actual manifesto that the government puts into action?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Andy put it this way, people have been dying on our streets in greater numbers than ever before and people are in greater poverty than for at least the last couple of decades the vulnerable have never been so badly looked after in our society, the NHS and Education are practically on their knees and yet all the focus is that if you dare to broach any of these matters and bring them to the general publics attention you are told why are you talking about that when we have Brexit.

So for me Andy for the last few years the immediate crisis situations in our society have been placed on a back burner just so everyone can obsess about what is a political decision that will probably effect everyone in society eventually but not right now.

And also by obsessing on brexit May has had a free pass to get through any draconian law she wishes.

When the labour party try hold her to task in the media all they get from the media and others is why arn't you talking about Brexit.

Talk me through how you see Brexit affecting the homeless the vulnerable, the NHS and Education

Give me some examples. Factor in, if you don't mind, the "Bonfire of Rights, Red tape and Regulations". Also Factor in, if you would be ever so kind the affect on GDP.



If you can do that while clearly showing that it won't make the current plight of the NHS, the poor, the vunerable and everyone else much, much worse off then fair play.

If you can't then clearly Brexit IS the most important thing.


Oh and 'a couple of decades' - clearly a dig at Blair - again provide those figures if you don't mind. I think you'll find they have actually skyrocketed in the last ten years.

[TepidT2O]

Andy put it this way, people have been dying on our streets in greater numbers than ever before and people are in greater poverty than for at least the last couple of decades the vulnerable have never been so badly looked after in our society, the NHS and Education are practically on their knees and yet all the focus is that if you dare to broach any of these matters and bring them to the general publics attention you are told why are you talking about that when we have Brexit.

So for me Andy for the last few years the immediate crisis situations in our society have been placed on a back burner just so everyone can obsess about what is a political decision that will probably effect everyone in society eventually but not right now.

And also by obsessing on brexit May has had a free pass to get through any draconian law she wishes.

When the labour party try hold her to task in the media all they get from the media and others is why arn't you talking about Brexit.

and the answer to this is bring back the people who stopped the poverty and rough sleeping.

Bring back a progressive Labour Party with broad appeal.

[Mutton Geoff]

Talk me through how you see Brexit affecting the homeless the vulnerable, the NHS and Education

Give me some examples. Factor in, if you don't mind, the "Bonfire of Rights, Red tape and Regulations". Also Factor in, if you would be ever so kind the affect on GDP.



If you can do that while clearly showing that it won't make the current plight of the NHS, the poor, the vunerable and everyone else much, much worse off then fair play.

If you can't then clearly Brexit IS the most important thing.


Oh and 'a couple of decades' - clearly a dig at Blair - again provide those figures if you don't mind. I think you'll find they have actually skyrocketed in the last ten years.

Clearly you are looking for an argument so i will not bother to respond except to say my reference was decades going back to the Thatcher years smart lad.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

I agree, making her a figure of fun is seen as acceptable and the amount of shit she gets is disproportionate to the gaffes she’s made. When the likes of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and David Davis can talk utter shite, perform fuck up after fuck up and look utterly incompetent it’s all laughed off and has no impact of their reputation, they can even be in the frame for the fucking PM job.

Abbott has made stupid statements and embarrassed herself but she gets vile abuse for it and is forever hounded for it. Imagine if she had performed like Chris Grayling! The media would have hounded her out a job long ago but this daft c*nt can go from job to job and it’s all a bit of lark that he’s useless. Massive  double standards going on and I’m not her biggest but I see the flak she takes compared to others is incredible.

I believe she’s a genuine person and well intentioned but she’s unfortunately been promoted way above her skill level,  she’s a perfectly fine MP for her constituency but circumstances have put her way out of her depth.

boris to be fair gets a lot of shit and gets called on it, the whole turkey thing today for example

[Mutton Geoff]

and the answer to this is bring back the people who stopped the poverty and rough sleeping.

Bring back a progressive Labour Party with broad appeal.

If that's the answer get on with it.

Stop in in-fighting in public look to change from within go to the meetings get on board committees help take back what you think is lost we can all prevaricate but some maybe need to do something.