Topic: Homeland - now finished in the States - here be spoilers

[Neil D]

Looking it up, I might have watched the 2nd and given up on the third...I always liked Nina Myers best...

but yes, funny how opinions vary...I suppose it's a good job really else otherwise we may as well all be watching propaganda films in a communist dictatorship...

Yeah the third season was for me when it started to go downhill, although I still really enjoyed it. The fourth and fifth were hard work and I gave up.

Back to Homeland, Brody is the character I identify most with and care the most about, followed by Saul.

[owens_2k]

That last episode was worse than Flash-Forward. They are out of ideas. The whole programme was revolving around is he/isnt he a terrorist. Kind of reminded me of Ben Linus in lost, is he an other isnt he? Great thing about that was it was across roughly 3 episodes not a season and a half.

I would also like to say that prison break had a similar decline in quality. Season 1 was great, Season 2 on the run was good. But when your called "prison break" theres only so much you can do!

[Phil M]

For me the worst thing about this season was the fact that I was constantly questioning what I was seeing as I was watching it.
With other series, and even series 1 of Homeland, I was engrossed in the story, in the characters, in the plot. This season all I find myself doing is watching a scene and then saying 'wait a second, surely the CIA would have Brody's car bugged along with his phone seeing as he's a terrorist who they are monitoring 24/7, thus not allowing him to lose them at any stage' or as mentioned above in the latest episode the ridiculous SWAT team actions and the fact that Carrie wouldn't wait for back up and/or a bloody weapon before trying to single handedly hunt down the world's most dangerous terrorist. Also correct me if I'm wrong but since when was a polygraph test sufficient proof of anything?

Also, and this is the main bugbear for me, why, after Carrie knew Nazir was finally in a body bag, didn't she call Brody to tell him it was over? Why did she wait until he, surprisingly it seems, show up at her door that night for her to say "he's dead". Shocking.

[FernandoSusoLFC]

forget that we have emile heskey as the head of the CIA 

You know he ran a diamond mind in blood diamonds too?

Man gets around and rises to power quickly.

[Yiannis]

Also, and this is the main bugbear for me, why, after Carrie knew Nazir was finally in a body bag, didn't she call Brody to tell him it was over? Why did she wait until he, surprisingly it seems, show up at her door that night for her to say "he's dead". Shocking.

Erm,what?Brody already knew.

I would also like to say that prison break had a similar decline in quality. Season 1 was great, Season 2 on the run was good. But when your called "prison break" theres only so much you can do!

That's the first TV show that sprung(btw is it spelled with 'u' or 'a'?) to mind.Identical cases both of them.

[Phil M]

Erm,what?Brody already knew.
That's the first TV show that sprung(btw is it spelled with 'u' or 'a'?) to mind.Identical cases both of them.

My point is you would think she would want to speak to him asap given their relationship and the fact that his whole double agent status and the deal was based on them capturing or killing Nazir.

[Timbo's Goals]

Reading the past few pages I guess I'm way way out of step here.

For me it's never been anything more than a slightly less action packed twist on 24. Very watchable essentially because its subject matter is inevitably the sort that draws you in and also because of the regular presence of the drop dead gorgeous lead actress [whether she's looking happy  :)or pained ] and Saul's unnerringly deadpan demeanour which is dead ace.

But those who seemed initially to elevate it beyond its 'artistic' station and seemed to be remotely hopeful of some steadily rising dramatic consistency and plot revelation beyond the initial "whose side's he really on" uncertainty remind me of those who expected "Lost" to have some incredible end revelation and tore into the show as it drew to its ending.

Inevitably anyone expecting such sort of development or in fact anything other than reasonably watchable fodder was in this instance destined for a fuckin huge kick in the bollocks. So I guess that's part of the reason why it's had such a kicking.   

Yet for me - I haven't seen the final episode btw and I assure you I'm not simply taking a differing standpoint just for the sake of it - the ridiculous inconsistencies are no more ridiculopus from those in '24'. And hence, I've enjoyed it at around the same level. No more - not much less.

Sorry not join in the bashing but there you go. My sights were set at quite a mediocre level and that's where the thing has taken me. If there's another series I'll certainly be recording it and watching - again with no great expectation levels. I wasn't expecting anything at the level of The Sopranos, Wire, Breaking Bad, Deadwood or even The Shield. It never promised it. Nor did it ever deliver it. So no bashing from me.

[Beav]

Yeah, think you're right about expecting it to be great, but the very good first season made us hope that would continue through at least another season. It natural to watch a great show then expect it to be at a similar level next season, but with this it's not in the same league as it's own season 1.

[sideshowme]

is this show no longer deemed worthy of spoilers?  and yes, emile heskey is a good shout

Spoiler

But those who seemed initially to elevate it beyond its 'artistic' station and seemed to be remotely hopeful of some steadily rising dramatic consistency and plot revelation beyond the initial "whose side's he really on" uncertainty remind me of those who expected "Lost" to have some incredible end revelation and tore into the show as it drew to its ending.

Inevitably anyone expecting such sort of development or in fact anything other than reasonably watchable fodder was in this instance destined for a fuckin huge kick in the bollocks. So I guess that's part of the reason why it's had such a kicking.   

Yeah, think you're right about expecting it to be great, but the very good first season made us hope that would continue through at least another season. It natural to watch a great show then expect it to be at a similar level next season, but with this it's not in the same league as it's own season 1.

i don't think i ever elevated the show.  i think the first season was well acted, nicely textured, but even then had a great deal of filler in it. it was very good but not great.

however, there is no reason why the second season couldn't have maintained that level.  there was no reason to be so premature in destroying the show's central point of tension in the second season.  and there was no reason to insult the viewers' intelligence with some of the writing and plot contrivances.  it really has been poor.

i haven't seen 24, by the way, so i can't make that comparison.  heroes is pretty close to the mark though.

[close]

[AriGold]

Well I'm still enjoying it and think it's great. So fuck you all.

[Mr Dilkington]

Reading the past few pages I guess I'm way way out of step here.

For me it's never been anything more than a slightly less action packed twist on 24. Very watchable essentially because its subject matter is inevitably the sort that draws you in and also because of the regular presence of the drop dead gorgeous lead actress [whether she's looking happy  :)or pained ] and Saul's unnerringly deadpan demeanour which is dead ace.

But those who seemed initially to elevate it beyond its 'artistic' station and seemed to be remotely hopeful of some steadily rising dramatic consistency and plot revelation beyond the initial "whose side's he really on" uncertainty remind me of those who expected "Lost" to have some incredible end revelation and tore into the show as it drew to its ending.

Inevitably anyone expecting such sort of development or in fact anything other than reasonably watchable fodder was in this instance destined for a fuckin huge kick in the bollocks. So I guess that's part of the reason why it's had such a kicking.   

Yet for me - I haven't seen the final episode btw and I assure you I'm not simply taking a differing standpoint just for the sake of it - the ridiculous inconsistencies are no more ridiculopus from those in '24'. And hence, I've enjoyed it at around the same level. No more - not much less.

Sorry not join in the bashing but there you go. My sights were set at quite a mediocre level and that's where the thing has taken me. If there's another series I'll certainly be recording it and watching - again with no great expectation levels. I wasn't expecting anything at the level of The Sopranos, Wire, Breaking Bad, Deadwood or even The Shield. It never promised it. Nor did it ever deliver it. So no bashing from me.

I disagree Timbo.

The first season WAS genuinely first class television. That's the disappointment here. The fall off has been so great between the two seasons that I think your point makes no sense to me. Again, It's important to reiterate that people have different views, and some may not rate season 1 as highly as I do.

Season 1 was everything season 2 thus far hasn't been. It was consistently well written, the acting never ever missed a beat, the script was tight, it was never boring, and it was as tense a season of TV as you're ever likely to see. Season 2 has had its moments; there's episodes in there I like a lot, but the last two have just destroyed any kind of momentum it had started to build up.

[Popcorn]

Well I'm still enjoying it and think it's great. So fuck you all.

I've that attitude aswell.

It's only a tv show really and it entertains. People taking it far too serious in saying it used to be different.

This season isn't as good as season 1, it would have been very hard to keep those standards but people seem to be looking for things to criticise the show this time around rather than just watching it.

[owens_2k]

Even season 1 was nothing on LOST, Prison Break or Dexter

[Macphisto80]

I think, generally, the sign of a TV show's quality is that if it hooks you in and then leaves you gutted having to wait for another week to see what happens next. The first series did that. To an extent the second one did, but I can pinpoint exactly where it started to dip and go off the rails. That's not something that can be said for most TV shows that eventually started degrading. It's usually a gradual thing, and it happens over the course of several series, sometimes less, but it's rare. Twin Peaks was a good example of the dynamics of the show shifting once the cat was out of the bag, and as a result the quality dipped, but that show still managed to retain a lot of entertainment value due to just how off the rails it was to begin with. Homeland is similar, only the difference is that it set a standard within it's tone and pacing. That tone and pacing is now lost, as well as the big mystery. Characters also started to grate on the nerves, and that is never a good sign. Ultimately the telling factor that a show has went down the shitter is when you don't feel arsed to watch it the following week. The past two episodes for me have been "when I get round to it or when I'm seriously bored". Not good.

[ghost1359]

Such a shame that 'Rubicon' got canned but this got commissioned again.

Rubicon was brilliant. I was gutted when that got canned.

[ghost1359]

The one thing that's bugged me about all of this more than anything else is....

Spoiler

Saul has always been made out to be a company man, right through the first season and the majority of the second. Whenever Carrie disagreed with someone on compassionate grounds or wanted to do something tempestuous Saul was the voice of reason, towing the company line etc yet now we're supposed to believe that he'd suddenly be heartbroken over the thought that Brody is going to get taken out? Such a stupid idea, just doesn't fit in with his character at all. Even if he turns out to be the mole Brody now has absolutely 0 strategic value so he'd still want him dead. Can't wrap my head around it.

[close]

[Macphisto80]

Rubicon could have been really great. It had potential. This has ran into a dead end.

[sideshowme]

The one thing that's bugged me about all of this more than anything else is....

Spoiler

Saul has always been made out to be a company man, right through the first season and the majority of the second. Whenever Carrie disagreed with someone on compassionate grounds or wanted to do something tempestuous Saul was the voice of reason, towing the company line etc yet now we're supposed to believe that he'd suddenly be heartbroken over the thought that Brody is going to get taken out? Such a stupid idea, just doesn't fit in with his character at all. Even if he turns out to be the mole Brody now has absolutely 0 strategic value so he'd still want him dead. Can't wrap my head around it.

[close]

Spoiler

i don't think that's a fair criticism. company man or not, saul has been shown to be probably the most human of all the CIA machines, and the thought of breaking his word to someone he helped secure as an asset, and then assassinating him into the bargain is not something he can condone.  it's a natural sense of fair play and honour. 

that's not the same as rigidly following protocol to prevent carrie's excesses.  he can be a Good Man or a Good Man Folllowing the Rules, but he can't condone being a Good Man Breaking the Rules.

remember, the only reason estes wants brody dead is to prevent any high profile leaks regarding estes's own potentially career-ending involvement in the drone strike.  why would saul want him dead?

[close]

[ghost1359]

Spoiler

i don't think that's a fair criticism. company man or not, saul has been shown to be probably the most human of all the CIA machines, and the thought of breaking his word to someone he helped secure as an asset, and then assassinating him into the bargain is not something he can condone.  it's a natural sense of fair play and honour. 

that's not the same as rigidly following protocol to prevent carrie's excesses.  he can be a Good Man or a Good Man Folllowing the Rules, but he can't condone being a Good Man Breaking the Rules.

remember, the only reason estes wants brody dead is to prevent any high profile leaks regarding estes's own potentially career-ending involvement in the drone strike.  why would saul want him dead?

[close]

I suppose you're right, still doesn't feel quite right to me though.

[rossipersempre]

Homeland recipe:

1 x otherwise decent English actor, pulling pained sweaty twitchy expression continuously;

1 x otherwise decent American actress, pulling crazed sweaty paranoid expression continuously, also make sure she says 'fuck' every 5 minutes;

Add 1 x half-baked "Al Qaeda terrorist" plot;

Stir for 2 seasons;

Remove media hype and Barack Obama endorsement;

Remove from oven and watch the hot air escape and resultant mix flop.

[xavidub]

Rubicon could have been really great. It had potential. This has ran into a dead end.

Rubicon's shared DNA with Le Carre. It got the atmosphere of paranoia perfectly right. There is no paranoia at all in homeland, and no atmosphere. It's like Burn Notice without the humour.

[lachesis]

First season was great, really suspenseful. Second season has tailed off because the suspense has gone, and the writers have made you dislike Carrie.

I never feel any fear for her because she does the most stupid things and always lives.

Spoiler

Why did she drive past the jeep before Brody was choppered out? She drove past and the only way to get back would be to retrace her steps and then her cover is blown. And for what? The position she was in was a better one as she was still 'in play'.

Secondly, running back to Abu Nazir's hidey hole with a pipe and she knows he has a gun and is the most dangerous terrorist ever. To coin a phrase from David Lister:

People that stupid deserve to be kerpowed, zapped and kersplatted.....

Also is she actually back working for the CIA - it's never been officially confirmed and I see her with 'visitor passes on' yet she has the freedom of Langley?

[close]

There are plot holes and issues, but when you have such narrowly defined characters you stick to what makes them good, not totally change them.

[WelshMike]

Spoiler

I assume that Finn and Dana will get together again now in a 'sorry your dad's dead' sort of way.

At least if they stay together then they'll have an interesting anecdote to tell at parties when they're older, about how they killed some woman in a hit-and-run before going a bit on-off because one of their dads killed the other (who was the VP at the time). Quality.

[close]

[sideshowme]

Spoiler

the more i think about it the stupider the whole pacemaker thing becomes.  a real low point in TV villainy.

[close]

[Bangin Them In]

Brody's daughter really is the most miserable bint I've seen in some time

[Agger]

Brody's daughter really is the most miserable bint I've seen in some time

Spoiler

And why is she feeling so bad about the car accident? Yes, she probably should've told him to slow down, but she wasn't driving and she clearly wanted to go back and help her.

[close]

[Popcorn]

Spoiler

And why is she feeling so bad about the car accident? Yes, she probably should've told him to slow down, but she wasn't driving and she clearly wanted to go back and help her.

[close]

Spoiler

Why is she feeling bad?

She ended somebody's life.

[close]

[Agger]

Spoiler

Why is she feeling bad?

She ended somebody's life.

[close]

Spoiler

No, she didn't. He did.

[close]

[Bangin Them In]

Spoiler

Why is she feeling bad?

She ended somebody's life.

[close]

Spoiler

She's been like this since the start of series 1, face like a bag of gravel

[close]

[Agger]

Spoiler

She's been like this since the start of series 1, face like a bag of gravel

[close]

Yeah, she couldn't be any ruder even if she tried. Hate the character.

[Popcorn]

She's clearly been through a lot though..

He was driving but she was in the car. Obviously it would play on her mind. If I was a passenger in a car that killed someone I don't think I'd be back to normal after a few days. Seems like something that could affect you for life.

[Agger]

She's clearly been through a lot though..

He was driving but she was in the car. Obviously it would play on her mind. If I was a passenger in a car that killed someone I don't think I'd be back to normal after a few days. Seems like something that could affect you for life.

Yeah, definitely. She just annoys me and puts me off of ever having kids because I just couldn't live with their teenage phase.

[alex.]

So....anybody have anything nice to say about the second series?

[libby_lfc]

Damien Lewis has become really sexy to me because of the show. That's something positive? Haha.

I'm also still a fan of Brody and Carrie. Both messed up, they suit each other.

[ghost1359]

I can't be the only one that wants to do the bad thing to Dana surely?

I can confirm she's over 18

[Neil D]

So....anybody have anything nice to say about the second series?

I've enjoyed it, criticism valid but OTT in my opinion, still better than most things on TV.

[Barefoot Doctor]

So....anybody have anything nice to say about the second series?

I was enjoying the second season until the two most recent episodes. Had been some disappointing moments throughout, but Carrie finding out the truth about Brody and Brody being questioned was fantastic TV.

[rhylred]

I think, generally, the sign of a TV show's quality is that if it hooks you in and then leaves you gutted having to wait for another week to see what happens next. The first series did that. To an extent the second one did, but I can pinpoint exactly where it started to dip and go off the rails. That's not something that can be said for most TV shows that eventually started degrading. It's usually a gradual thing, and it happens over the course of several series, sometimes less, but it's rare. Twin Peaks was a good example of the dynamics of the show shifting once the cat was out of the bag, and as a result the quality dipped, but that show still managed to retain a lot of entertainment value due to just how off the rails it was to begin with. Homeland is similar, only the difference is that it set a standard within it's tone and pacing. That tone and pacing is now lost, as well as the big mystery. Characters also started to grate on the nerves, and that is never a good sign. Ultimately the telling factor that a show has went down the shitter is when you don't feel arsed to watch it the following week. The past two episodes for me have been "when I get round to it or when I'm seriously bored". Not good.

Spot on there,7 weeks ago on sunday, was in hospital and made sure the tv was on channel 4,fast forward 7 weeks and watched it on channel 4 plus 1,tell you what though still class compared to some of the crap thats on..

[lionel_messias]

Homeland recipe:

1 x otherwise decent English actor, pulling pained sweaty twitchy expression continuously;

1 x otherwise decent American actress, pulling crazed sweaty paranoid expression continuously, also make sure she says 'fuck' every 5 minutes;

Add 1 x half-baked "Al Qaeda terrorist" plot;

Stir for 2 seasons;

Remove media hype and Barack Obama endorsement;

Remove from oven and watch the hot air escape and resultant mix flop.

Oooh you cynic. I think you are right though.

One thing that doesn't add up in the real world - and this isn't a spoiler:

The Obama administration is hugely IN FAVOUR of drone strikes. You get no casualties on the American side and you get the chance to take out terrorist cells.

Of course there will always be 'collateral damage' - civilians, women, children who are living where 'intelligence sources' indicate terrorists are.

I just don't think anyone would lose their job for approving such a strike. Rightly or wrongly. This seems like Hollywood moralising to me. It just doesn't seem right.

Anway, when's Jack Bauer appearing?

[ConqueredAllOfEurope]

I can't be the only one that wants to do the bad thing to Dana surely?

I can confirm she's over 18

Haha she's not over 18 she is 18, she just turned 18 in October. Which means when she was filming she must have been 17