Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire general thread: BOOK AND SHOW spoilers galore

[Nessy76]

I think it's a bit of a copout to defend every writer on the basis of "art".

There's an nice quote from the first episode of Abstract, a show on Netflix about designers. The focus of that episode, illustrator, Christoph Niemann says inspiration isn't something that comes to him. It's something that he finds, by showing up everyday and just doing the thing. Then, he might find inspiration, or he might not, but he won't get it without looking.

At this stage, I think GRRM long since ceased to look his hardest for how to finish this series. It's a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. Which is fine - it's his life and his work.

My position on work though - whether it's writing or paintings or movies or architecture or really anything, is that you should try and finish it. I don't think The Song of Ice and Fire is finished until he finishes it, and I don't think he's committed to finishing it anymore. Not really. Which is a shame from the perspective of fans, because we've devoted a certain amount of emotional investment in his work, with the understanding that we would see a conclusion to it. Again, it's within his rights not to complete the fruit of his own mental labour, but it doesn't speak to a respect for his audience, that some 'artists' might have. And the fact that he continues to pump out other work at a one book a year pace, while keeping his messaging at the 'lol.. it's not TWOW..again!' level doesn't really say much about him either.

He knows exactly how to finish it. He just can't get there. He doesn't owe anything to anyone. If he does it, great. If not, he has every right to do whatever he wants to do. I expect he wrote this new book in an attempt to shake some things loose to help him write the next one.

His writing method is a pain in the arse from the sounds of it, but that's what got him where he is.

[BER]

GRRM is not your bitch.

*GROAN*

[jooneyisdagod]

I think it's a bit of a copout to defend every writer on the basis of "art".

There's an nice quote from the first episode of Abstract, a show on Netflix about designers. The focus of that episode, illustrator, Christoph Niemann says inspiration isn't something that comes to him. It's something that he finds, by showing up everyday and just doing the thing. Then, he might find inspiration, or he might not, but he won't get it without looking.

At this stage, I think GRRM long since ceased to look his hardest for how to finish this series. It's a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. Which is fine - it's his life and his work.

My position on work though - whether it's writing or paintings or movies or architecture or really anything, is that you should try and finish it. I don't think The Song of Ice and Fire is finished until he finishes it, and I don't think he's committed to finishing it anymore. Not really. Which is a shame from the perspective of fans, because we've devoted a certain amount of emotional investment in his work, with the understanding that we would see a conclusion to it. Again, it's within his rights not to complete the fruit of his own mental labour, but it doesn't speak to a respect for his audience, that some 'artists' might have. And the fact that he continues to pump out other work at a one book a year pace, while keeping his messaging at the 'lol.. it's not TWOW..again!' level doesn't really say much about him either.

But I'm not defending every writer on the basis of art. I'm defending this specific one, who has for better or worse decided to build a world and story that is incredibly grand in terms of scale as well as ideas. That puts ASOIAF in the category of art and then those rules apply. Your Netflix quote is irrelevant. GRRM used to write in Hollywood, so I'm sure he knows how to get shit done when he has to. 

But there's a difference between writing something to meet a certain set of criteria and writing something fictional where the scale is so grand.

Your assumptions on whether or not it is a nice to have vs a need to have for GRRM are just that, assumptions. So when you argue your points on the basis of this assumption, they become meaningless because there is no evidence that this is the case. To use the delay in the release of the books as evidence for his loss of interest is begging the question. His latest quotes suggest that he is struggling with tying the many loose ends in his story without breaking its internal logic, which is as Nessy points out, a fucking pain for someone with his writing style.

[Redcap]

GRRM is not your bitch.

*GROAN*

This is one of those blanket statements that shuts down discussion though.

Yes, there are people who hurl abuse at him online [Note: when I say hurl abuse at him, I don't mean venting frustrations on a forum but sending him abusive emails - important distinction htere] - all those people that do that to any artist are assholes - but for the most part people are frustrated because he's showing no signs of delivering.

His PR strategy is to treat the entirety of the series readership as if the small annoying minority of people who are abusing him represents them all.

i.e. "Nah nah nah. It's my book and I'll finish it when I like, and there's nothing you can do about it." People like Neil Gaiman (whom I'm also a big fan of) are echoing this bizarre and disrespectful strategy.

If he came out with an open letter saying something along the lines of:

* I continue to be humbled by how much people love the series.
* I'm doing my best to finish the series as quickly, and also as best as I can, but the process has gotten me this far, and you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
* When I release other material, it's not out of a lack of interest in ASOIAF - writing other stuff helps me get the creative juices going.
* Thanks again for continuing on this journey with me - it means a lot to me how much this means to you.

He'd be fine.

But no, he's been just totally opaque and non-communicative, except with communiques that read almost like mockery of his readers.

[Redcap]

Your assumptions on whether or not it is a nice to have vs a need to have for GRRM are just that, assumptions. So when you argue your points on the basis of this assumption, they become meaningless because there is no evidence that this is the case. To use the delay in the release of the books as evidence for his loss of interest is begging the question. His latest quotes suggest that he is struggling with tying the many loose ends in his story without breaking its internal logic, which is as Nessy points out, a fucking pain for someone with his writing style.

No one but GRRM and the people close to him know how important this thing is to him at this stage. I don't, but neither do you.

But the fact that GRRM has released no less than SEVEN works in the past seven years (excluding Comicon appearances, TV scripts etc), suggests maybe, just maybe, finishing this work is hardly paramount in his list of objectives.

[bobadicious]

Its a bit of crap analogy but I used to love playing Fallout New Vegas, but i left it for a while and when i went back id forgotten where id left off and i was put off doing anything in it incase i messed up my game.

I think GRRM might have got into that situation where the longer he leaves it the harder it is to get back into it. He knows his previous work is his master piece and has massive expectations on the next books from fans and that just exacerbates the issue further. So basically hes taking so long cus he doesn't want to fuck it up but that is basically crippling him from actually doing anything for fear that he'll forget something or actually that he has forgotten stuff (hes 5 books to keep consistent and tie plot threads together) and and the longer it goes on the harder it will be for him to go back to it.

Just my opinion, probably a load of balls and hes actually completed both books and is waiting for the finish of the show so he can unveil both WOW and DOS. A boy can dream...

[jooneyisdagod]

No one but GRRM and the people close to him know how important this thing is to him at this stage. I don't, but neither do you.

But the fact that GRRM has released no less than SEVEN works in the past seven years (excluding Comicon appearances, TV scripts etc), suggests maybe, just maybe, finishing this work is hardly paramount in his list of objectives.

Creativity works in bursts. The issue hasn't been whether or not GRRM is writing because by all accounts he is. The issue seems to be that he is writing and rewriting over and over again. Sure he does other things also but that's the nature of the beast. It is nearly impossible to constantly think about the same thing over and over again. If anything doing other things acts as a distraction and helps provide a fresh look at the book. This helps writers create better. You're right that neither of us knows whether or not he is interested. But you're constantly making the assumption that he is building an argument around it. You may be right that he just doesn't give a shit, but I think there's a much simpler explanation, which is that he is just struggling to tie the stories together.

[sinnermichael]

The final season of Game Of Thrones features a battle that took 55 days to film, and is "brutal," according to Peter Dinklage: “It makes the Battle of the Bastards look like a theme park.

[El Lobo]

Hope there's minimal leaks for this, it sounds like it'll be absolutely epic and it'd be a shame to lose out on that effect by knowing what happens before seeing it.

[CraigDS]

Really want to wait until all 6 are out and then watch them all in one go - but staying away from spoilers for that time will surely be next to impossible.

[RedSince86]

The final season of Game Of Thrones features a battle that took 55 days to film, and is "brutal," according to Peter Dinklage: “It makes the Battle of the Bastards look like a theme park.

Oh my.

[Red Viper]

Really want to wait until all 6 are out and then watch them all in one go - but staying away from spoilers for that time will surely be next to impossible.

Yeah I don't think that's a viable option. Last couple of years I've had to resort to getting up early Monday morning to watch episodes purely because I was finding it difficult to make it through one day without seeing spoilers.

[jillcwhomever]

There is an article on the other thread about series 8, which is taken from the Entertainment magazine. It does have what could count as spoilers about the action, so if you want to remain spoiler free don't read it.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

There is an article on the other thread about series 8, which is taken from the Entertainment magazine. It does have what could count as spoilers about the action, so if you want to remain spoiler free don't read it.

Love this bit and before anybody gets upset,it isn't a spoiler.

The cast then journeyed to Belfast to gather in a production office for the formal read-through. By then, everybody knew the tale that was about to unfold, with two notable exceptions: Davos Seaworth actor Liam Cunningham (“The f—ing scripts wouldn’t open, the double extra security!” he grouses) and Harington, who outright refused to read anything in advance.

“I walked in saying, ‘Don’t tell me, I don’t want to know,’” Harington says. “What’s the point of reading it to myself in my own head when I can listen to people do it and find out with my friends?” So, yes: Jon Snow, quite literally, knew nothing.

[Lastrador]

And me thinking this thread was on the front page because there were some news about the books, what a fool.

[Dench57]

And me thinking this thread was on the front page because there were some news about the books, what a fool.

Books are for losers

[El Lobo]

!

[Red Viper]

And me thinking this thread was on the front page because there were some news about the books, what a fool.

I've given up all hope on the books now. If I had to bet on TWOW ever coming out then I'd probably back it not happening.

[bobadicious]

I've given up all hope on the books now. If I had to bet on TWOW ever coming out then I'd probably back it not happening.

Sadly agree now and I think most fans are probably past caring at this point. Its disappointing.

[stewil007]

Sadly agree now and I think most fans are probably past caring at this point. Its disappointing.

But imagine how much money could be made from other people re-imagining the ending in their own way.

[jillcwhomever]

Sadly agree now and I think most fans are probably past caring at this point. Its disappointing.

It's life though. Everyone goes on about this as if its easy finishing a story. You can take my word for it, it's  not easy at all. I've been trying to end my own story for a number of months and sometimes your mind is just all over the place. I don't think for one minute it is any different for a professional author as they are all human. Their motivations go up and down, ideas can dry up, stories take you in different directions no matter how much planning or detail you go into beforehand. Planning and writing a story can be really hard, but finishing it is the toughest challenge of all.

[GinKop]

Bump from page 3....nope, no breaking news.

Since I've finished reading ASOIAF, I've been looking for the "next best thing" to keep me going. I have googled tons and read loads of articles on this topic. Problem is they all seem to be from people who really like the fantasy genre. Middle Earth and these books have been my only try of this genre, one I struggle with.

Two series I have tried are The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and The Way of Kings (can't remember the series name) by Brian Sanderson. Really struggled to into them.

Any RAWKites read anything else that can be suggested?

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Bump from page 3....nope, no breaking news.

Since I've finished reading ASOIAF, I've been looking for the "next best thing" to keep me going. I have googled tons and read loads of articles on this topic. Problem is they all seem to be from people who really like the fantasy genre. Middle Earth and these books have been my only try of this genre, one I struggle with.

Two series I have tried are The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and The Way of Kings (can't remember the series name) by Brian Sanderson. Really struggled to into them.

Any RAWKites read anything else that can be suggested?

Joe Abercrombie's series The First Law trilogy and the other standalone spin offs are all excellent, thoroughly recommend, only thing that's been close to ASOIAF for me.

[vagabond]

malazan malazan malazan malazan malazan

[bobadicious]

malazan malazan malazan malazan malazan

I tried malazan, read 1st book and half way through second book. Confused the hell out of me. So many characters and so much going on. Maybe I should go back and start again as lots of people say it is great.

[GinKop]

Joe Abercrombie's series The First Law trilogy and the other standalone spin offs are all excellent, thoroughly recommend, only thing that's been close to ASOIAF for me.

Ah yes did see this mentioned. I enjoyed the politics and King's Landing/rest of the Seven Kingdom dynamics more than any of the fantasy elements so will give this a try.

Currently trying the Iron King, the series GRRM said had a big bearing on ASOIAF.

malazan malazan malazan malazan malazan

Also seen this mentioned a lot - will give it a try also. Hurrah for Amazon Kindle.

[vagabond]

I tried malazan, read 1st book and half way through second book. Confused the hell out of me. So many characters and so much going on. Maybe I should go back and start again as lots of people say it is great.

By far and away the best fantasy series I have read. And I've read a few.

[Redcap]

I've given up all hope on the books now. If I had to bet on TWOW ever coming out then I'd probably back it not happening.

Nah I reckon we'll still get The Winds of Winter. It's The Hope of Spring we won't get. Which basically amounts to the same thing.

[newrosswaterford]

Bump from page 3....nope, no breaking news.

Since I've finished reading ASOIAF, I've been looking for the "next best thing" to keep me going. I have googled tons and read loads of articles on this topic. Problem is they all seem to be from people who really like the fantasy genre. Middle Earth and these books have been my only try of this genre, one I struggle with.

Two series I have tried are The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and The Way of Kings (can't remember the series name) by Brian Sanderson. Really struggled to into them.

Any RAWKites read anything else that can be suggested?

The Empire series by Wurts and Fiest is excellent. Shogun style world, loads of politics ect.

https://www.goodreads.com/series/44298-the-empire-trilogy

[GinKop]

Joe Abercrombie's series The First Law trilogy and the other standalone spin offs are all excellent, thoroughly recommend, only thing that's been close to ASOIAF for me.

Thanks for this recommendation, really enjoying it.

[mgs88]

Bump from page 3....nope, no breaking news.

Since I've finished reading ASOIAF, I've been looking for the "next best thing" to keep me going. I have googled tons and read loads of articles on this topic. Problem is they all seem to be from people who really like the fantasy genre. Middle Earth and these books have been my only try of this genre, one I struggle with.

Two series I have tried are The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and The Way of Kings (can't remember the series name) by Brian Sanderson. Really struggled to into them.

Any RAWKites read anything else that can be suggested?

Robin Hobbs fitz and the fool series is great. I think it's some thing like 16 books in total which sounds daunting but the books are great, so they never drag. If you wanted to miss out the live ship trilogy and the rain wild chronicles it would take the total books down to 9 and wouldn't mess up the main story for you.  Although I really recommend the live ship trilogy as I found it the best trilogy of the set.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Thanks for this recommendation, really enjoying it.

Yessssss! Love it when someone gets onto it!

I read First Law trilogy and now working my way through the other books set in the same world.

[Lusty]

Yessssss! Love it when someone gets onto it!

I read First Law trilogy and now working my way through the other books set in the same world.

I'll add to the recommendation for these. Actually enjoyed the spin offs more than the main trilogy.

[Djozer]

Bump from page 3....nope, no breaking news.

Since I've finished reading ASOIAF, I've been looking for the "next best thing" to keep me going. I have googled tons and read loads of articles on this topic. Problem is they all seem to be from people who really like the fantasy genre. Middle Earth and these books have been my only try of this genre, one I struggle with.

Two series I have tried are The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and The Way of Kings (can't remember the series name) by Brian Sanderson. Really struggled to into them.

Any RAWKites read anything else that can be suggested?

I'll be honest, I was never into the fantasy genre until Game of Thrones/ASOIAF but have since explored it a fair bit, and there seems to be some really good stuff in there. Loads of shite too, mind!

Echo the shouts for Abercrombie's stuff, and think mgs88's Robin Hobb recommendation is great - she might write the best prose in fantasy, and her stuff is definitely worth a read. Think someone mentioned the Malazan stuff; I liked that one too, though it was hard work at times. Genuinely unique series though, and has a lot going for it.

Patrick Rothfuss's two books, The Name of the Wind and A Wise Man's Fear are utterly brilliant, but are part of a series that he may or may not finish - it's been ages since the second one, and he seems to have gone on an indefinite hiatus. Definitely worth checking out though, even if he never gets round to completing the cycle. I've also enjoyed stuff by Scott Lynch, Mark Lawrence and Ursula la Guin. There's probably others, but those are the ones that spring to mind right now. Rothfuss's stuff would definitely be my primary recommendation outside the stuff others have already highlighted though - his two might well be two of my favourite books ever. A poster called Dave5516 was really good for fantasy stuff, but he appears to have taken a break from RAWK. A shame, as he seems like a cracking guy.

Oh, and it may not strictly be fantasy, but China Mieville's stuff is fantastic. Guy's a bona fide genius.

[afc tukrish]

Bump from page 3....nope, no breaking news.

Since I've finished reading ASOIAF, I've been looking for the "next best thing" to keep me going. I have googled tons and read loads of articles on this topic. Problem is they all seem to be from people who really like the fantasy genre. Middle Earth and these books have been my only try of this genre, one I struggle with.

Two series I have tried are The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and The Way of Kings (can't remember the series name) by Brian Sanderson. Really struggled to into them.

Any RAWKites read anything else that can be suggested?

https://www.blackgate.com/

Black Gate used to be a monthly fantasy magazine, now it's a sort of catch-all fantasy/sci-fi site.

All the recommendations from this thread have appeared on the site along with lots of other potential reads.

Highly recommend bookmarking, you'll find plenty of good ideas for future reads...

[J-Mc-]

Bump from page 3....nope, no breaking news.

Since I've finished reading ASOIAF, I've been looking for the "next best thing" to keep me going. I have googled tons and read loads of articles on this topic. Problem is they all seem to be from people who really like the fantasy genre. Middle Earth and these books have been my only try of this genre, one I struggle with.

Two series I have tried are The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and The Way of Kings (can't remember the series name) by Brian Sanderson. Really struggled to into them.

Any RAWKites read anything else that can be suggested?

The dragonlance chronicles.

Excellent if you’re looking for the fantasy fix.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Oh, and it may not strictly be fantasy, but China Mieville's stuff is fantastic. Guy's a bona fide genius.

I second this emotion.

And also the one about Dave. Big love Dave, wherever you may be.

[jillcwhomever]

Creativity works in bursts. The issue hasn't been whether or not GRRM is writing because by all accounts he is. The issue seems to be that he is writing and rewriting over and over again. Sure he does other things also but that's the nature of the beast. It is nearly impossible to constantly think about the same thing over and over again. If anything doing other things acts as a distraction and helps provide a fresh look at the book. This helps writers create better. You're right that neither of us knows whether or not he is interested. But you're constantly making the assumption that he is building an argument around it. You may be right that he just doesn't give a shit, but I think there's a much simpler explanation, which is that he is just struggling to tie the stories together.

I have only just found this post and I agree completely. I write for a website and its a fact that sometimes you can be writing on more than one story at a time. I think at one stage I was writing on about three stories at the same time. It would be great to think that you can finish one story at a time, but in truth your mind goes on all sorts of adventures. The ideas are there one minute, than vanishing the next. It is so easy to begin a story but tying everything together at the end is always the challenge. The last story I finished I must have re-written six times before I was fully satisfied with it, I can only guess what writing a mamouth story like this costs you.

[Nessy76]

I'll be honest, I was never into the fantasy genre until Game of Thrones/ASOIAF but have since explored it a fair bit, and there seems to be some really good stuff in there. Loads of shite too, mind!

Echo the shouts for Abercrombie's stuff, and think mgs88's Robin Hobb recommendation is great - she might write the best prose in fantasy, and her stuff is definitely worth a read. Think someone mentioned the Malazan stuff; I liked that one too, though it was hard work at times. Genuinely unique series though, and has a lot going for it.

Patrick Rothfuss's two books, The Name of the Wind and A Wise Man's Fear are utterly brilliant, but are part of a series that he may or may not finish - it's been ages since the second one, and he seems to have gone on an indefinite hiatus. Definitely worth checking out though, even if he never gets round to completing the cycle. I've also enjoyed stuff by Scott Lynch, Mark Lawrence and Ursula la Guin. There's probably others, but those are the ones that spring to mind right now. Rothfuss's stuff would definitely be my primary recommendation outside the stuff others have already highlighted though - his two might well be two of my favourite books ever. A poster called Dave5516 was really good for fantasy stuff, but he appears to have taken a break from RAWK. A shame, as he seems like a cracking guy.

Oh, and it may not strictly be fantasy, but China Mieville's stuff is fantastic. Guy's a bona fide genius.

Great list there. I'd add NK Jemisin's Fifth Season /Broken Earth series. Much more character driven than most fantasy, although the scale is huge.

[RedSince86]

Was on Youtube passing the time before the game starts and came across this video.

Interesting viewing and does make me wonder about Littlefinger, there is another video floating around on Youtube with the theory that Littlefinger is the actual protagonist of GoT.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/lsrD2429XEk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/lsrD2429XEk</a>