Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[BoRed]

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1141370853852160003

People keep shifting the goalposts for Labour. As far as I'm concerned, they don't have to officially become a remain party until a second referendum is called, as long as they're backing a second referendum on any deal with remain being one of the options. And they are:

Labour has now released a statement that Jeremy Corbyn made to the shadow cabinet today on the second referendum issue. Here it is in full:

We have committed to respecting the result of the referendum, and have strongly made the case for an alternative plan for Brexit as the only serious deal that could potentially command the support of the House.

At conference last year we passed our policy, the members’ policy. Over the past nine months, I have stuck faithfully to it.

A no-deal Brexit would plunge us into the worst excesses of disaster capitalism and trash our economy on the back of fantasy Tory trade deals or worse, very real and very damaging trade deals with Donald Trump, opening up our NHS to American companies.

I have already made the case, on the media and in Dublin, that it is now right to demand that any deal is put to a public vote. That is in line with our conference policy which agreed a public vote would be an option.

A ballot paper would need to contain real choices for both leave and remain voters. This will of course depend on parliament.

I want to hear your views, I will be hearing trade union views next week, and then I want to set out our views to the public.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/jun/19/tory-leadership-boris-johnson-result-vote-hunt-suggests-boris-johnson-cant-be-trust-to-keep-his-brexit-promises-live-news?page=with:block-5d0a52a98f081e872734aab8#block-5d0a52a98f081e872734aab8

[ShakaHislop]

People keep shifting the goalposts for Labour. As far as I'm concerned, they don't have to officially become a remain party until a second referendum is called, as long as they're backing a second referendum on any deal with remain being one of the options. And they are:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/jun/19/tory-leadership-boris-johnson-result-vote-hunt-suggests-boris-johnson-cant-be-trust-to-keep-his-brexit-promises-live-news?page=with:block-5d0a52a98f081e872734aab8#block-5d0a52a98f081e872734aab8

Define a "real choice" for Leave voters.

[BoRed]

Define a "real choice" for Leave voters.

I'm guessing that means whatever deal makes it through parliament (which could also be no deal), though I couldn't care less what the real choice for leave voters is, as long as remain is an option.

[ShakaHislop]

I'm guessing that means whatever deal makes it through parliament (which could also be no deal), though I couldn't care less what the real choice for leave voters is, as long as remain is an option.

Yeah, you're "guessing". It's ridiculous we still have to fill in the gaps when it comes to Labour policy.

My interpretation is that Labour views a "real choice" for Leave voters as being their Brexit - customs union with a say + "access" to the single market - plan. However if that, again, isn't able to get a majority in Parliament to be on the ballot paper, what then? Does Labour not support a referendum because they don't believe a "real choice" is being offered to Leave voters?

Furthermore, by definition, no deal can't be placed in the category of "any deal" in the same way no car can't be placed in the category of "type of car", so does Labour not support a referendum that has no deal on the ballot paper? That conference policy, which today's statement refers to, suggests not.

Conference also believes a no-deal Brexit should be rejected as a viable option

Finally, I think you were wrong to claim that Labour is officially backing Remain as an option.

People keep shifting the goalposts for Labour. As far as I'm concerned, they don't have to officially become a remain party until a second referendum is called, as long as they're backing a second referendum on any deal with remain being one of the options. And they are:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/jun/19/tory-leadership-boris-johnson-result-vote-hunt-suggests-boris-johnson-cant-be-trust-to-keep-his-brexit-promises-live-news?page=with:block-5d0a52a98f081e872734aab8#block-5d0a52a98f081e872734aab8

There is no direct confirmation in today's statement of Remain being an option. You can "guess" that a "real choice" for Remain voters is simply Remain but it's merely a guess. I can picture Labour pointing to this part of the conference policy

Conference accepts that the public voted to leave the EU

to argue that the best "real choice" for Remain voters, in line with conference policy is Labour's Brexit plan. See this part of conference policy too

Conference believes we need a relationship with the EU that guarantees full participation in the Single Market

Labour may argue that "full participation" in (but not membership of) the Single Market offers something to those that voted Remain in 2016 while bringing them together with those who voted Leave etc etc

[BoRed]

Clutching at straws there, though I'm not sure why you're so desperately trying to present good news as bad news. It's been welcomed by the People's Vote campaign, and here's Peston's conclusion:

"Looks as though Seumas Milne and Karie Murphy - who have been resisting Labour's shift to supporting a referendum in all circumstances are at the last being out-manoeuvred."

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1141387532992688128 - there's more from him on that thread

Remember when Dan Jarvis was tipped as a future leader...

Good thing we got Corbyn then. Or, at least, it's a good thing that virtually everyone on his wing of the party (his closest allies McDonnell and Abbot, Momentum, the unions, and the members that elected him) are remainers. Someone like Jarvis would have whipped his shadow cabinet to vote for May's deal and that would have been the end of it.

[ShakaHislop]

Clutching at straws there, though I'm not sure why you're so desperately trying to present good news as bad news. Here's Peston's conclusion:

"Looks as though Seumas Milne and Karie Murphy - who have been resisting Labour's shift to supporting a referendum in all circumstances are at the last being out-manoeuvred."

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1141387532992688128 - there's more from him on that thread

Good thing we got Corbyn then. Or, at least, it's a good thing that virtually everyone on his wing of the party (his closest allies McDonnell and Abbot, Momentum, the unions, and the members that elected him) are remainers. Someone like Jarvis would have whipped his shadow cabinet to vote for May's deal and that would have been the end of it.

That's what you do consistently when it comes to defending Labour's position on Brexit.

I don't agree that what's been said today is unquestionably good news, and if you want to know why I'm cynical about Labour on this, ask the Labour members who voted for the Greens and Lib Dems at the European elections.

With regards to Jarvis, I could claim that if he ran and became leader in 2015, Leave would not have won the referendum in the first place but we'll never know for sure like we won't with your claim. I don't believe McDonnell is a Remainer at heart (if that's what you were suggesting) but if he's willing to return the party to a pro-Remain position because he sees the bigger election picture, why wouldn't Leader Jarvis in this parallel universe do the same thing?

[Wilmo]

Can't help but feel some on here would be gutted if Corbyn actually did end up backing a second referendum and remain. I remember when Dan Jarvis was causing a lot of excitement on these boards, wonder what people think now.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Clutching at straws there, though I'm not sure why you're so desperately trying to present good news as bad news. It's been welcomed by the People's Vote campaign, and here's Peston's conclusion:

"Looks as though Seumas Milne and Karie Murphy - who have been resisting Labour's shift to supporting a referendum in all circumstances are at the last being out-manoeuvred."

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1141387532992688128 - there's more from him on that thread

Your 'appeal to authority' is a logical fallacy. And, I am not sure why you would consider Peston 'an authority' in this matter. He has an opinion, and it even might be considered (by some) as insightful, but that is all.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Can't help but feel some on here would be gutted if Corbyn actually did end up backing a second referendum and remain. I remember when Dan Jarvis was causing a lot of excitement on these boards, wonder what people think now.

Why would you think that? I am still waiting for Corbyn to come out and say, as per Conference instructions, we are backing a second, 'Peoples Vote'*. It is not that fucking hard, is it.

* I use the term advisedly. It quite irritates me.

[BoRed]

Your 'appeal to authority' is a logical fallacy. And, I am not sure why you would consider Peston 'an authority' in this matter. He has an opinion, and it even might be considered (by some) as insightful, but that is all.

Eh? What's a logical fallacy in plain English?

People quote Peston here all the time, so some may be interested in his thoughts on this, too. Of course it's an opinion, I never called him an authority.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Eh? What's a logical fallacy in plain English?

People quote Peston here all the time, so some may be interested in his thoughts on this, too. Of course it's an opinion, I never called him an authority.

Yeah, but you used a quote from Peston to 'prove your point' - hence, 'appeal to authority'. That is fine - as far as it goes - if everyone agrees that the authority is indeed authoritative on the subject at hand, but that is not the case here, so it does nothing to conclude the argument. Mostly Peston is quoted here because he has good access to some people his are in the inner circles of discussion, and those tidbits can be important, but mostly just of some interest here (not that they always can believed, of course). Anyway, quoting Peston (just because he agrees with you) is not really a way to make your argument.

[BoRed]

Yeah, but you used a quote from Peston to 'prove your point' - hence, 'appeal to authority'.

No, I just posted his opinion as I found it interesting and thought others might, too.

If I wanted to spend my time on formally proving hypotheses through deductive reasoning, the last place I'd be doing it would be an internet forum.

[Jiminy Cricket]

No, I just posted his opinion as I found it interesting and thought others might, too.

If I wanted to spend my time on formally proving hypotheses through deductive reasoning, the last place I'd be doing it would be an internet forum.

You do have a point there.

[lamad]

Have they used a marker on a computer-screen there?

Looks like a screenshot or digital file/photo and someone then made markings with a brush in Photoshop. Not that this is in any way relevant to this discussion, but you've asked lol (and I have done this when I wanted to mark stuff for someone else to see on a screenshot, hence I recognise the look of it).

[Zeb]

It was a speech this morning, I think.

https://twitter.com/syedmahmood/status/1140910071049793536

http://compeer.co.uk/event/wealth-management-yearly-review-2019/

Ivan Rogers has hardly been Mr.Cheery about this since leaving the civil service but, Jesus, this is bleak. (Edited transcript on link)

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/ivan-rogers-no-deal-is-now-the-most-likely-outcome/

With a ‘new deal’ impossible by October 31 – and all know full well it is, whatever they profess to believe – we shall seemingly either have a prime minister fully aware that ‘no deal’ can be the only outcome on that date, hoping that the 27 deliver it for him, and genuinely not intending to seek an extension.

Or we have a prime minister who fully intends to seek an extension, calculating – wrongly, I fear – that, unlike his predecessor, he can deliver a Withdrawal Agreement with alternative arrangements to a backstop embedded in it, or guaranteed to come into force before it was ever triggered.

Or we have a prime minister who privately knows that the Withdrawal Agreement will not be reopened, but thinks he can sell it unchanged, accompanied by a changed destination in the Political Declaration, with some brio, charisma and bluster, to a Commons some of whom are desperate now to get anything over the line.

Or we have a prime minister who intends to make what he knows to be unnegotiable demands in order to have the pretext to go for an election which enables him, once the demands are rebuffed, to go to ‘no deal’ if he can change the composition of the Commons to back it.

If it is the last, once you go to ‘no deal’, everything I have outlined earlier applies and we discover, painfully, that it is not sustainable and that the only route to a loose preferential trade deal lies by agreeing precisely what we are rejecting now. But with a lot more money.

As we now, for the second time in 3 years, see a new prime minister elected by a small group who think it falls to them to determine what the ‘will of the people’ is – a peculiar view of liberal democracy in my view – perhaps we can dispense with the fantasies and falsehoods, and learn which of these four propositions we are facing this autumn.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Can't help but feel some on here would be gutted if Corbyn actually did end up backing a second referendum and remain.

mostly because he has a track record of losing in contests where people who aren’t Labour Party members get to vote?

[Sangria]

Can't help but feel some on here would be gutted if Corbyn actually did end up backing a second referendum and remain. I remember when Dan Jarvis was causing a lot of excitement on these boards, wonder what people think now.

The only disappointment would be that it is far too late to start believing in any Corbyn promise to campaign for Remain. There's way too much evidence that Corbyn wants to leave the EU, and will defy the party to pursue that policy. Any Remainers wanting to vote for a Remain party will have to look elsewhere. It needn't have been so. It shouldn't have been so.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The only disappointment would be that it is far too late to start believing in any Corbyn promise to campaign for Remain. There's way too much evidence that Corbyn wants to leave the EU, and will defy the party to pursue that policy. Any Remainers wanting to vote for a Remain party will have to look elsewhere. It needn't have been so. It shouldn't have been so.

Indeed.

One of Corbyn's strengths is that as a campaigner, he can be very passionate about a cause he believes in, and people of a like mind respond to this. Conversely, he comes across as shifty, lukewarm and untrustworthy when trying to promote a compromise position. This is a great weakness for a prospective Prime Minister, who necessarily has to compromise and respect the idea of a Cabinet's collective responsibility.

After so long trying this 'triangulation' approach, a Corbyn conversion to promoting Remain for the good of the country and for the Labour party would be most welcome.

However, I think a lot of people would be interested in seeing a fair track record being established that he was genuinely passionate about the change of mind, and brought  those campaigning skills to bear. I fear we would see the dissembler rather than the advocate, which would not help matters.

Having said that, it may be that many of us would return to voting Labour with it standing on an unequivocal Remain position (even with a lukewarm leadership) merely because Brexit is forever, whilst a Corbyn government is for five years - and may even turn out to surprise us. As I have said before, a Labour government returned immediately after the Tories impose Brexit would face unimaginable economic problems and be unable to enact any really progressive policies whilst circling the drain.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The only disappointment would be that it is far too late to start believing in any Corbyn promise to campaign for Remain. There's way too much evidence that Corbyn wants to leave the EU, and will defy the party to pursue that policy. Any Remainers wanting to vote for a Remain party will have to look elsewhere. It needn't have been so. It shouldn't have been so.

and of course there’s the other stuff with corbyn, best off backing a pro EU party since the referendum ie greens/Lib dems/snp

[Skeeve]

I'm guessing no changes coming in Labour's position anyway, based on their briefing paper to the shadow cabinet.

The sheer arrogance they must have to think that the 70-80% of labour voters who support remain will continue to do so while Labour persists with this futile policy of chasing after leave voters. 

[Skeeve]

The reason people hate him is that hes a 2 faced c*nt who lied to get votes in the election.

Hopefully the rule change will come soon, and we can get someone in that backs the party and the membership and not someone trying to bring the party down who said one of his jobs is to keep the Tories in power and to stop them collapsing.

Somebody who backs the party and the membership, both of whom are pro-remain unlike the leadership of the party you mean?

Anyway if they wanted to get rid of him for not backing the party over the good of the country, Corbyn was such a fan of not supporting the party he could always sue Watson for trademark infringement. 

[Skeeve]

Can't help but feel some on here would be gutted if Corbyn actually did end up backing a second referendum and remain. I remember when Dan Jarvis was causing a lot of excitement on these boards, wonder what people think now.

I'd be fine with him finally backing a second referendum, but to be fair to him, he should be allowed to campaign for leave this time round rather than having to pretend to do so for remain.

[Ghost Town]

Indeed.

One of Corbyn's strengths is that as a campaigner, he can be very passionate about a cause he believes in, and people of a like mind respond to this. Conversely, he comes across as shifty, lukewarm and untrustworthy when trying to promote a compromise position. This is a great weakness for a prospective Prime Minister, who necessarily has to compromise and respect the idea of a Cabinet's collective responsibility.

After so long trying this 'triangulation' approach, a Corbyn conversion to promoting Remain for the good of the country and for the Labour party would be most welcome.

However, I think a lot of people would be interested in seeing a fair track record being established that he was genuinely passionate about the change of mind, and brought  those campaigning skills to bear. I fear we would see the dissembler rather than the advocate, which would not help matters.

Having said that, it may be that many of us would return to voting Labour with it standing on an unequivocal Remain position (even with a lukewarm leadership) merely because Brexit is forever, whilst a Corbyn government is for five years - and may even turn out to surprise us. As I have said before, a Labour government returned immediately after the Tories impose Brexit would face unimaginable economic problems and be unable to enact any really progressive policies whilst circling the drain.

Yeh, agree with this. I think Corbyn is a bit of a cock but he does have some potentially good policies and progressive ideas regarding a post-austerity revival for the country. If he switched to a genuine, steadfast Remain position I'd probably return to Labour. I've had a fair few dealings with Corbyn in the past and reckon he could carry off a term as PM without going totally doolally, especially if he changes his advisors and learns some pragmatism. His uber socialist dreams are pretty nonsensical, certainly, but his premiership would at least shift the Overton and perhaps improve the endoxa. God knows we need it.

[redmark]

Someone like Jarvis would have whipped his shadow cabinet to vote for May's deal and that would have been the end of it.

So would Corbyn, if he could. The leader of the Labour Party is not a dictator; conference sets policy.

[Mutton Geoff]

Can't help but feel some on here would be gutted if Corbyn actually did end up backing a second referendum and remain. I remember when Dan Jarvis was causing a lot of excitement on these boards, wonder what people think now.

Sheffield's gain is the Labour Party's loss perhaps?

[ShakaHislop]

Brexit would 'diminish' UK, says Dutch PM Mark Rutte

Brexit will make the UK "a diminished country", the Dutch Prime Minister has said.

Mark Rutte told the BBC the UK, outside the EU, would not be "big enough" to play a role on the world stage.

He also said the withdrawal agreement could not be renegotiated by the autumn.

Changes could be made to the political declaration if the UK tells the EU how it wants to deal with the Irish border, he said.

However, he added there was "no point" in further negotiations, unless the UK changed its red lines.

Responding to Mr Rutte's comments, ex-Brexit Secretary David Davis said Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson - who he is now supporting to be Tory leader - said: "Boris believes we have got a great future."

Speaking to BBC's Radio 4 Today programme, Mr Rutte expressed his opposition to Brexit.

"I hate Brexit from every angle, I hate no-deal Brexit from every angle," he said.

Asked about a second referendum he said: "I've stopped dreaming - we have to avoid a hard Brexit now."

Outside the EU, the UK will "not be big enough to have an important position on the world's stage", he said.

Responding to suggestions the EU could agree a transition period in the event of a no deal scenario, he said: "Hard Brexit is hard Brexit, I don't see how you can sweeten it."

He warned against implementing a time limit on the Irish backstop - as some Tory leadership candidates have proposed.

"That would mean a hard border, and that would mean an end to the Good Friday Agreement and back to the Troubles," he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48703043

[No666]

Yeh, agree with this. I think Corbyn is a bit of a cock but he does have some potentially good policies and progressive ideas regarding a post-austerity revival for the country. If he switched to a genuine, steadfast Remain position I'd probably return to Labour. I've had a fair few dealings with Corbyn in the past and reckon he could carry off a term as PM without going totally doolally, especially if he changes his advisors and learns some pragmatism. His uber socialist dreams are pretty nonsensical, certainly, but his premiership would at least shift the Overton and perhaps improve the endoxa. God knows we need it.

That's unicorn-land again, sadly.

[ShakaHislop]

Bank of England cuts UK growth outlook as rates held

The Bank of England has said it expects economic growth to be flat in the second quarter of the year.

The Bank's Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) had previously predicted growth of 0.2% over the period.

The forecast came as the nine-member committee announced it had voted unanimously to keep UK interest rates on hold, at 0.75%.

The committee said the downgrade in part reflected an easing of stock-building ahead of Brexit deadlines.

The MPC said since its previous meeting, the "near-term data have been broadly in line with the May Report, but the downside risks to growth have increased".

Global trade tensions had intensified and domestically, the "perceived likelihood of a no-deal Brexit" had risen, it added.

"As expected, recent UK data have been volatile, in large part due to Brexit-related effects on financial markets and businesses."

As a result, the committee said in its minutes that after the economy grew by 0.5% in the first three months of 2019, it now expected zero growth in the second quarter.

"That in part reflects an unwind of the positive contribution to GDP in the first quarter from companies in the United Kingdom and the European Union building stocks significantly ahead of recent Brexit deadlines," the MPC said.

The underlying pattern of relatively strong household consumption growth, but weak business investment, has persisted.

In setting interest rates, the Bank is aiming to keep inflation within one percentage point either side of its target of 2% "in a way that helps to sustain growth and employment".

On Wednesday, it was announced that inflation had fallen to its target of 2% in May, easing pressure on the Bank to raise rates to keep prices under control.

And on Thursday, retail sales figures showed a retail sales fell by 0.5% between April and May, the biggest drop this year. Cold weather in May meant shoppers delayed buying summer clothes.

Richard Carter, head of fixed interest research at Quilter Cheviot, said the MPC's recent warnings about possible future interest rate hikes "look increasingly hollow, as both the ECB and Federal Reserve are now preparing to move in the opposite direction while the latest readings on the UK economy have been weak".

"It is quite possible that the BOE will have to cut rates too before long, with Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson seemingly headed for Number 10 on a commitment to leave the EU by 31 October, even if the price is a period of economic disruption."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48702758

[KillieRed]

The sheer arrogance they must have to think that the 70-80% of labour voters who support remain will continue to do so while Labour persists with this futile policy of chasing after leave voters. 

Yeah, that attitude has really worked for them in Scotland, so why not repeat it elswhere?

[kavah]

Brexit would 'diminish' UK, says Dutch PM Mark Rutte

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48703043

Cheers - thanks for posting

The Dutch have a justified reputation for speaking the simple truth without ambiguity, unlike the Tory bluster we are used to.

[Red-Soldier]

Bank of England cuts UK growth outlook as rates held

That's good news, as we don't want rates to increase.

[ShakaHislop]

No-deal Brexit uncertainty forces UK producers to plan factory shutdowns

LONDON — British companies have drawn up plans to temporarily close factories after demand for their goods nose-dived following Theresa May's decision to delay Brexit, senior industry figures have told Business Insider.

Producers have seen production levels collapse due to what one industry chief called the "stop-start" Brexit effect.

Fears of a no-deal Brexit in March and April led many companies to build up large stockpiles of goods.

As a result, many companies in the United Kingdom now have a large excess of stock to go through, meaning production of some goods, including foodstuffs and raw materials, has now all but halted in some factories.

One popular ingredients producer, which does not wish to be identified, has seen its sales plummet since the decision was made in April to delay Brexit until the end of October.

This leading producer is now considering temporarily shutting down its factory, industry figures told Business Insider, with its workers having little to do other than sweep the floors and clean machinery.

Other UK producers face a similar dilemma of how to deal with the sharp decline in demand.

One industry figure told Business Insider this week: "In April and May there were lots of companies with time on their hands. They say they have the cleanest factories you have ever seen.

"This stop-start process is not a great way to run a business."

However, while UK industry was relatively prepared for a no-deal exit in March, such preparations would be significantly more difficult later this year.

Business Insider reported in April that UK companies were struggling to find warehouse space to stockpile goods in preparation for an October no-deal due to warehouses already being booked up for the Christmas period.

Much of the warehouse space previously allocated to cope with a no-deal Brexit at the end of March, is now unavailable for a no-deal exit on October 31, with much of it booked up to three years in advance.

One business leader familiar with the no-deal plans of British retailers said that one major food company had used warehouses to stockpile around 24,000 pallets of stock in the run-up to a potential no-deal exit in the Spring.

However, none of this space is available at the end of the year.

They told Business Insider that warehousing space is "at maximum capacity over Christmas in any normal year," and that the risk of a no-deal Brexit in October was creating demand for additional space which does not exist.

"Christmas is already a difficult period... Brexit is a pain in the arse which has f***** everything up even more."

https://www.businessinsider.com/no-deal-brexit-uncertainty-forces-uk-companies-to-plan-factory-shutdowns-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

[Jiminy Cricket]

Rather tangential this, but I don't know where else to post it (and it ain't worth its own thread). John Cleese is interviewed at his home on the island idyll of Nevis. He is actually in favour of a no-Deal Brexit. I am more than sympathetic to negative views about the decline and direction of the UK; but it is his old-dufferness perspective and shite humour which is both cringe-worthy and sad. Why is it that some people end up like this when they become old? I think it as confused anger, declining mental capacity, and probably has something to do with increased anxiety over mortality. Anyway...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1foufgg0X0

[oldfordie]

Rather tangential this, but I don't know where else to post it (and it ain't worth its own thread). John Cleese is interviewed at his home on the island idyll of Nevis. He is actually in favour of a no-Deal Brexit. I am more than sympathetic to negative views about the decline and direction of the UK; but it is his old-dufferness perspective and shite humour which is both cringe-worthy and sad. Why is it that some people end up like this when they become old? I think it as confused anger, declining mental capacity, and probably has something to do with increased anxiety over mortality. Anyway...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1foufgg0X0

"The arguments ive heard for a no deal Brexit are really quiet convincing but ive never heard these arguments in the media"
I don't know what possible argument he's heard that we haven't heard in the past, every one of those arguments are either lies or bulls.. theories that fall apart under any serious scrutiny.
You may well be right over why people like Cleese become supporters of no deal Brexit. it's easy to argue every no deal leave voter is a idiot but that can't possibly be true so other things must play a part, personalty played a part. there are always 2 sides when looking at the EU and Brexit, some people just focused on what they viewed as the negatives. you only have to look at the first few rows of any Brexit/ukip meeting. I can't imagine any of them having a good word for anyone. they all look like they would stick a knife in the kids neighbours ball if it came into their garden.

[Ghost Town]

Read Fintan O'Toole's book Heroic Failure. He has some interesting ideas as to Brexit being an enormous act of mass self-pity. You know how 'pleasurable' and addictive self pity can be, when you think you are superior and deserve better but feel people are not treating you right or giving you your dues?

That's what the Brexiter mindset reveals, according to O'Toole, and certain types of people (of which Cleese seems to be one, based on his own words) are highly susceptible to this.

[BobOnATank]

'Enormous hostility' across EU to any Brexit extension

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2019/0620/1056399-eu_summit/

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said there is enormous hostility across the EU to any extension to Brexit adding that some had lost patience with the UK.

Arriving at the EU summit in Brussels Mr Varadkar said in the event of no-deal there would be no transition period for the British government.
He said there would be no bilateral negotiations between the next UK prime minister and other European capitals on the Brexit issue.
His comments come amid speculation that the new prime minister, most likely Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, would seek to influence national capitals on getting changes to the backstop before visiting Dublin.

Mr Varadkar said: "Negotiations can only happen between the UK and EU, we're not going to allow negotiations to move to an intergovernment level in any way…, the Withdrawal Agreement is not going to be reopened, but we're willing to consider amendments to the political declaration."
Asked about a further extension to Article 50, the Taoiseach said: "There is very much a strong view across the EU that there shouldn't be any more extensions. While I have endless patience some of my colleagues have lost patience, quite frankly, with the UK and there's enormous hostility to any extension."

There could be an extension for a general election or a second referendum, he said, but "what won't be entertained is an extension for further negotiations."

Mr Varadkar welcomed the publication of the so-called Mapping Exercise on North-South cooperation by the European Commission.  The report reveals the breadth and scale of North South cooperation which could be disrupted by Brexit.

"That cooperation is so much deeper than trade issues," the Taoiseach told reporters, "and it really sketches out what the Good Friday Agreement is all about.

Not that it'll stop that shithead Johnson for claiming otherwise of course...

[ShakaHislop]

Parliament would be stupid to vote for a general election. It's Johnson's only lifeline, as far as I can see. Theoretically, he could try and put May's deal (which he finally voted for in MV3 on the 29th of March) to another vote somehow, hoping there are finally enough Labour MPs to get it over the line but that would alienate the hardcore Brexiteers that are now his base, and would store up problems in the form of the Brexit Party for the Tories at a GE in the near future.

[Zeb]

Parliament would be stupid to vote for a general election. It's Johnson's only lifeline, as far as I can see. Theoretically, he could try and put May's deal (which he finally voted for in MV3 on the 29th of March) to another vote somehow, hoping there are finally enough Labour MPs to get it over the line but that would alienate the hardcore Brexiteers that are now his base, and would store up problems in the form of the Brexit Party for the Tories at a GE in the near future.

Can see why some Tories would come round to thinking it's a lifeline. Dead cat bounce in the polls and short memories skipping over 2017 and all that. Even allowing for a pact with the Farageists I'm not seeing how it helps the Tories having two polarising figures like Frottage and Johnson both out in lockstep redoing the referendum thing.

Weird digression, but there's a school of thought that the government can bring itself down to force a general election, obviously blocking another being formed in turn during that two weeks. Mondo bizarro stuff, I know.

[Red Beret]

Read Fintan O'Toole's book Heroic Failure. He has some interesting ideas as to Brexit being an enormous act of mass self-pity. You know how 'pleasurable' and addictive self pity can be, when you think you are superior and deserve better but feel people are not treating you right or giving you your dues?

That's what the Brexiter mindset reveals, according to O'Toole, and certain types of people (of which Cleese seems to be one, based on his own words) are highly susceptible to this.

You've just summed up about 40% of my daily emotional state.

[Nobby Reserve]

Independent's poll of Trade Union members about Brexit:

* Back a People’s Vote by 64 to 33 per cent – and support staying in the EU by a margin of 71 to 29 per cent if it is staged;

* Want Labour to campaign for the UK to stay in the EU by 60 to 21 per cent – rising to 74 to 10 per cent among the party’s 2017 voters;

* Think Labour’s current position on Brexit is confusing or unclear by a margin of 81 to 16 per cent;

* Believe it is more important to have free trade than to control immigration by a margin 73 to 20 per cent; and

* Are drifting to other parties – with just 39 per cent of trade currently intending to vote Labour.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trade-unionists-second-brexit-referendum-jeremy-corbyn-shadow-cabinet-a8971361.html