Author Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!  (Read 145617 times)

Online Eeyore

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3000 on: March 28, 2024, 01:25:55 pm »
I consider the use of separate historic issues as evidence of an anti-Liverpool corrupt agenda as being in strawman territory. I appreciate that you disagree.

The post I replied to had nothing to do with an anti Liverpool agenda though.

Isn't this just strawman logic?

I would say that distrust in authority has emanated from miscarriages of justice and the conduct of politicians over a sustained period, but that isn't - in itself - evidence of widespread corruption in other bodies of authority. In fact, to proffer this as an opinion is to reduce a worthwhile debate to something more vitriolic in tone with disconnected grievances being used to justify accusations of malfeasance amongst football's governing bodies.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3001 on: March 28, 2024, 02:09:02 pm »
You do make a lot of peremptory demands on here Andy! Are you a beak?

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3002 on: March 28, 2024, 02:43:41 pm »
Yes or no would be a better answer.


He still hasn’t answered  ;D

It’s not a trick or anything I’m just trying to understand peoples logic from one group to another.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3003 on: March 28, 2024, 02:52:33 pm »


He still hasn’t answered  ;D

It’s not a trick or anything I’m just trying to understand peoples logic from one group to another.

I'm still waiting for the answer that will cover the "They've both gone in high" from VAR (Which was ratified and approved by an independant panel and then doubled-down with from the head of PGMOL himself)

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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3004 on: March 28, 2024, 03:29:54 pm »
Far from it.

We have proof of widespread corruption throughout Football. Match-fixing scandals, bribery, we have had officials and match officials serving prison sentences. We have had the FBI investigating FIFA and officials serving prison sentences. We have had players in the English game being found guilty of match-fixing. We have had the Calciopoli scandal in Italy. We have Barca facing charges of paying the head of Spanish referees.

We have the government intervening in both the sale of Newcastle and the City 115 charges. We have the Premier League allowing Nation States, criminals and despots to buy Premier League clubs.

Yet you won't even countenance the possibility of corruption in the English game. When you look out the window and see it is raining do you then go and stand in the rain for half an hour so you can meet your threshold.

Has anyone actually said the bit in bold? Of course corruption is possible, but some of us need more evidence that it's happening right now.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3005 on: March 28, 2024, 03:44:11 pm »
Has anyone actually said the bit in bold? Of course corruption is possible, but some of us need more evidence that it's happening right now.

Unfortunately this isn’t a cartoon where a Man City truck drives up to Michael Oliver’s house with a load of brown sacks with dollar signs on, or Michael Oliver gets asked about why he didn’t give a penalty and he says ‘Let’s just say it moved me…TO A BIGGER HOUSE!’

Online Eeyore

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3006 on: March 28, 2024, 03:45:23 pm »
Has anyone actually said the bit in bold? Of course corruption is possible, but some of us need more evidence that it's happening right now.

Would you say that Mike Dean doing this was corrupt?

"I didn't want to send him up because he is a mate as well as a referee and I think I didn't want to send him up because I didn't want any more grief than he already had."

Would you say that Clattenberg awarding a penalty to even things up after his assistant made a mistake in a Champions League final was corrupt?

Would you say not having a fair distribution of referees was corrupt?

Would you say that Lee Mason being sacked for being incompetent and then becoming a Coach for the PGMOL was corrupt?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3007 on: March 28, 2024, 03:51:12 pm »
Has anyone actually said the bit in bold? Of course corruption is possible, but some of us need more evidence that it's happening right now.

And an example of that type of evidence would be?

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3008 on: March 28, 2024, 04:00:53 pm »
Unfortunately this isn’t a cartoon where a Man City truck drives up to Michael Oliver’s house with a load of brown sacks with dollar signs on, or Michael Oliver gets asked about why he didn’t give a penalty and he says ‘Let’s just say it moved me…TO A BIGGER HOUSE!’

What evidence are you looking for to establish corruption?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3009 on: March 28, 2024, 04:08:47 pm »
What evidence are you looking for to establish corruption?

Would you say that Mike Dean doing this was corrupt?

"I didn't want to send him up because he is a mate as well as a referee and I think I didn't want to send him up because I didn't want any more grief than he already had."

Would you say that Clattenberg awarding a penalty to even things up after his assistant made a mistake in a Champions League final was corrupt?

Would you say not having a fair distribution of referees was corrupt?

Would you say that Lee Mason being sacked for being incompetent and then becoming a Coach for the PGMOL was corrupt?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3010 on: March 28, 2024, 04:15:55 pm »
Would you say that Mike Dean doing this was corrupt?

"I didn't want to send him up because he is a mate as well as a referee and I think I didn't want to send him up because I didn't want any more grief than he already had."

Would you say that Clattenberg awarding a penalty to even things up after his assistant made a mistake in a Champions League final was corrupt?

Would you say not having a fair distribution of referees was corrupt?

Would you say that Lee Mason being sacked for being incompetent and then becoming a Coach for the PGMOL was corrupt?

We've been through some of these before.

But in any case I'm talking about what kind of evidence or proof you're hoping to come across to prove the case that PGMOL is corrupt when it comes to Liverpool.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3011 on: March 28, 2024, 04:24:29 pm »
We've been through some of these before.

But in any case I'm talking about what kind of evidence or proof you're hoping to come across to prove the case that PGMOL is corrupt when it comes to Liverpool.

Except you were not. You replied to a post about possible corruption regarding Man City.

You and Fitzy are having a mare. Basically, you are both now admitting that there is corruption in Football. You aren't denying that there are corrupt practices at the PGMOL. You have previously admitted that there is a general dislike for scousers in this Country.

Given those admissions based on the balance of probabilities isn't it likely that there is a bias against LFC. Furthermore isn't it likely that an organisation that engages in corrupt practices and allows its referees to moonlight for some of the owners of PL clubs is unlikely to prevent that bias playing out.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3012 on: March 28, 2024, 04:27:37 pm »
What evidence are you looking for to establish corruption?

Not sure. Personally I’d be looking for an incredibly dodgy decision in the last minute of a huge game being ignored, by a referee who has been directly paid by the owner of the team that it massively benefited, and his bosses then trying to cover it up with the most gaslighty bullshit you’ll ever see.

But I appreciate that’s a massive long shot and incredibly unlikely to happen.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3013 on: March 28, 2024, 05:05:00 pm »
What evidence are you looking for to establish corruption?

Maybe a ref getting paid money or given ‘presents’ by the owners of a premier league title challenger? Something like that I reckon.

Problem is unless things are hidden or found out via a scandal these things are always brushed away.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3014 on: March 28, 2024, 05:37:32 pm »
Not sure. Personally I’d be looking for an incredibly dodgy decision in the last minute of a huge game being ignored, by a referee who has been directly paid by the owner of the team that it massively benefited, and his bosses then trying to cover it up with the most gaslighty bullshit you’ll ever see.

But I appreciate that’s a massive long shot and incredibly unlikely to happen.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3015 on: March 28, 2024, 06:04:02 pm »
Maybe a ref getting paid money or given ‘presents’ by the owners of a premier league title challenger? Something like that I reckon.

Problem is unless things are hidden or found out via a scandal these things are always brushed away.

I think when you put all of this together, the constant PGMOL decisions and actions, the data that Paul Tomkins has presented then that has to be of real concern to anyone looking at the information available.

I understand that people are asking for actual evidence of corruption. But, we are football fans not Sherlock Holmes or work for the FBI.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3016 on: March 28, 2024, 06:33:16 pm »
I think when you put all of this together, the constant PGMOL decisions and actions, the data that Paul Tomkins has presented then that has to be of real concern to anyone looking at the information available.

I understand that people are asking for actual evidence of corruption. But, we are football fans not Sherlock Holmes or work for the FBI.

I'm obviously not expecting football supporters to mount an FBI-type investigation. But I am asking if you live in hope of something like this.

If I were absolutely sure that there was anti-Liverpool corruption in the way that, say Eeyore is in this thread, I would definitely be hoping for some corroborative evidence - and I think I'd even be expecting it. A confession (deathbed or otherwise), a journalistic sting, a whistleblower, a police investigation, a leaked transcript of a conversation, incriminating bank details, a wiretap....there are many possibilities. Even the mere launching of an independent journalistic investigation where some credible journalist says "we can no longer ignore this massive amount of circumstantial evidence that PGMOL seems to be conspiring against Liverpool". Perhaps even some honest supporters of other clubs (they DO exist!) who begin to say, "Weird isn't it? There does seem to be something iffy about the way Liverpool are being systematically refereed."

At the moment there is a hypothesis only. Each 'dodgy decision' against us is treated as if it is evidence of corruption (and 'dodgy decisions' that go for us are ignored or discounted). But every fan base in the country (and probably the world) nurses the same hypothesis and relies on the same type of 'evidence' to 'prove' that the discrimination is against them. Someone asked earlier whether the sceptics believe that corruption is even possible in football. It's a stupid question. Of course it is. It's happened! It happened famously not so long ago with Juventus. But in that particular case the hypothesis was proven. There was solid evidence to back it. Lots and lots of it.

So I ask again, what kind of evidence do those who believe there is genuine corruption against LFC expect to see, or hope to see, on that terrible day (glorious day?) when they are proved right.   
« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 06:34:58 pm by Yorkykopite »
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3017 on: March 28, 2024, 06:47:32 pm »
I'm obviously not expecting football supporters to mount an FBI-type investigation. But I am asking if you live in hope of something like this.

If I were absolutely sure that there was anti-Liverpool corruption in the way that, say Eeyore is in this thread, I would definitely be hoping for some corroborative evidence - and I think I'd even be expecting it. A confession (deathbed or otherwise), a journalistic sting, a whistleblower, a police investigation, a leaked transcript of a conversation, incriminating bank details, a wiretap....there are many possibilities. Even the mere launching of an independent journalistic investigation where some credible journalist says "we can no longer ignore this massive amount of circumstantial evidence that PGMOL seems to be conspiring against Liverpool". Perhaps even some honest supporters of other clubs (they DO exist!) who begin to say, "Weird isn't it? There does seem to be something iffy about the way Liverpool are being systematically refereed."

At the moment there is a hypothesis only. Each 'dodgy decision' against us is treated as if it is evidence of corruption (and 'dodgy decisions' that go for us are ignored or discounted). But every fan base in the country (and probably the world) nurses the same hypothesis and relies on the same type of 'evidence' to 'prove' that the discrimination is against them. Someone asked earlier whether the sceptics believe that corruption is even possible in football. It's a stupid question. Of course it is. It's happened! It happened famously not so long ago with Juventus. But in that particular case the hypothesis was proven. There was solid evidence to back it. Lots and lots of it.

So I ask again, what kind of evidence do those who believe there is genuine corruption against LFC expect to see, or hope to see, on that terrible day (glorious day?) when they are proved right.   


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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3018 on: March 28, 2024, 06:54:58 pm »
I'm obviously not expecting football supporters to mount an FBI-type investigation. But I am asking if you live in hope of something like this.

If I were absolutely sure that there was anti-Liverpool corruption in the way that, say Eeyore is in this thread, I would definitely be hoping for some corroborative evidence - and I think I'd even be expecting it. A confession (deathbed or otherwise), a journalistic sting, a whistleblower, a police investigation, a leaked transcript of a conversation, incriminating bank details, a wiretap....there are many possibilities. Even the mere launching of an independent journalistic investigation where some credible journalist says "we can no longer ignore this massive amount of circumstantial evidence that PGMOL seems to be conspiring against Liverpool". Perhaps even some honest supporters of other clubs (they DO exist!) who begin to say, "Weird isn't it? There does seem to be something iffy about the way Liverpool are being systematically refereed."

At the moment there is a hypothesis only. Each 'dodgy decision' against us is treated as if it is evidence of corruption (and 'dodgy decisions' that go for us are ignored or discounted). But every fan base in the country (and probably the world) nurses the same hypothesis and relies on the same type of 'evidence' to 'prove' that the discrimination is against them. Someone asked earlier whether the sceptics believe that corruption is even possible in football. It's a stupid question. Of course it is. It's happened! It happened famously not so long ago with Juventus. But in that particular case the hypothesis was proven. There was solid evidence to back it. Lots and lots of it.

So I ask again, what kind of evidence do those who believe there is genuine corruption against LFC expect to see, or hope to see, on that terrible day (glorious day?) when they are proved right.   


I don’t live in hope of it.

It would be great if a credible journalist did an expose on this but again I do t think that will happen anytime soon.

The fact that the only real concern when refs went to the UAE to referee match in the league owned by Man City owners, was that they were jet lagged shows that, for whatever reason, there is no appetitive to question if this is ethical or not.

to be honest, the work done by Paul Tomkins show enough for there to prove there is significant bias against LFC. But of course, he is a LFC fan running an LFC website. But that shouldn’t disqualify all of the research and analysis he has put into it

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3019 on: March 28, 2024, 07:03:25 pm »
It’s a bit like Cluedo isn’t it. I’ll go for Wimpy Webb, in Saudi Arabia, with the gold bar

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3020 on: March 28, 2024, 07:08:10 pm »
I don’t live in hope of it.

It would be great if a credible journalist did an expose on this but again I do t think that will happen anytime soon.

The fact that the only real concern when refs went to the UAE to referee match in the league owned by Man City owners, was that they were jet lagged shows that, for whatever reason, there is no appetitive to question if this is ethical or not.

to be honest, the work done by Paul Tomkins show enough for there to prove there is significant bias against LFC. But of course, he is a LFC fan running an LFC website. But that shouldn’t disqualify all of the research and analysis he has put into it


There is a definite incentive for an investigative journalist. To blow the lid off a corruption scandal at PGMOL would make someone's career. Many journalists live for such moments. But right now there doesn't be a whiff of interest in pursuing what is so blindingly obvious to Eeyore and others. That doesn't mean Eeyore and his gang are wrong. But it does require some explaining. I must say also that I don't know of any non-Liverpool supporter, or group of supporters, who do think that there is PGMOL corruption against Liverpool. Again, it doesn't prove there isn't. But you'd expect someone, no matter how partisan for an opposing club, to say "Hang on a minute, the scousers might have a point..." But no one does (I know what the 'answer' to this will be, but I don't think it's convincing. Not everyone in the world hates Liverpool to the point of blindness).

The Tomkins stuff is interesting but far from conclusive. There are, for example, good explanations aside from corruption that can account for 'outlier' statistics such as that attached to Mo.

Also, I don't know if you've noticed, but the minute anyone in this thread engages Eeyore and the gang and treats them seriously enough to ask an honest question they retreat into sarcasm mode. In other words they run away. They don't actually want to discuss their hypothesis. That's a bad sign I think.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 07:11:26 pm by Yorkykopite »
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3021 on: March 28, 2024, 07:15:31 pm »
I honestly don't know how anyone can argue that there isn't a bias, and when you mount the amount of small things together it's easy to see why so many feel there's corruption (I'd add not just against Liverpool in this circumstance).

I'd ask of the individuals who are saying that there's no corruption or no evidence of it, do they feel the same way towards City and there charges? When it comes out that they're not getting punished because it can't be proved, will you defend City's innocence with the same gusto?

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3022 on: March 28, 2024, 07:21:16 pm »
I'm obviously not expecting football supporters to mount an FBI-type investigation. But I am asking if you live in hope of something like this.

If I were absolutely sure that there was anti-Liverpool corruption in the way that, say Eeyore is in this thread, I would definitely be hoping for some corroborative evidence - and I think I'd even be expecting it. A confession (deathbed or otherwise), a journalistic sting, a whistleblower, a police investigation, a leaked transcript of a conversation, incriminating bank details, a wiretap....there are many possibilities. Even the mere launching of an independent journalistic investigation where some credible journalist says "we can no longer ignore this massive amount of circumstantial evidence that PGMOL seems to be conspiring against Liverpool". Perhaps even some honest supporters of other clubs (they DO exist!) who begin to say, "Weird isn't it? There does seem to be something iffy about the way Liverpool are being systematically refereed."

At the moment there is a hypothesis only. Each 'dodgy decision' against us is treated as if it is evidence of corruption (and 'dodgy decisions' that go for us are ignored or discounted). But every fan base in the country (and probably the world) nurses the same hypothesis and relies on the same type of 'evidence' to 'prove' that the discrimination is against them. Someone asked earlier whether the sceptics believe that corruption is even possible in football. It's a stupid question. Of course it is. It's happened! It happened famously not so long ago with Juventus. But in that particular case the hypothesis was proven. There was solid evidence to back it. Lots and lots of it.

So I ask again, what kind of evidence do those who believe there is genuine corruption against LFC expect to see, or hope to see, on that terrible day (glorious day?) when they are proved right.   


Do you think there is a bias in this Country against Scousers and against LFC?

Do you think the PGMOL is a corrupt organisation?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3023 on: March 28, 2024, 07:27:29 pm »
Do you think there is a bias in this Country against Scousers and against LFC?

Do you think the PGMOL is a corrupt organisation?

Bias? I wouldn't use that word. I'd use 'prejudice'. That prejudice is probably not as widely held as you think it is, and certainly isn't systematic. It's obviously not a prejudice that works as destructively as say the prejudice against racial or ethnic minorities - though I'm sure you'd agree with that.

Against LFC? Again, not a bias, but a strong dislike in certain quarters (as there is against Manchester United). Why? Jealousy, envy. The banner on the Kop says it well - 'You wish you were us'. We drive the opposition to frenzy because we're so fucking great and have been for a long, long time. Personally I blame Shanks.

PGMOL corrupt? No.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3024 on: March 28, 2024, 07:37:15 pm »
Bias? I wouldn't use that word. I'd use 'prejudice'. That prejudice is probably not as widely held as you think it is, and certainly isn't systematic. It's obviously not a prejudice that works as destructively as say the prejudice against racial or ethnic minorities - though I'm sure you'd agree with that.

Against LFC? Again, not a bias, but a strong dislike in certain quarters (as there is against Manchester United). Why? Jealousy, envy. The banner on the Kop says it well - 'You wish you were us'. We drive the opposition to frenzy because we're so fucking great and have been for a long, long time. Personally I blame Shanks.

PGMOL corrupt? No.
Just on the highlighted point; I agree that there is a heck of a lot of prejudice. Thing is though, prejudice naturally then manifests itself through bias. One tends to lead to the other.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3025 on: March 28, 2024, 07:50:45 pm »
Just on the highlighted point; I agree that there is a heck of a lot of prejudice. Thing is though, prejudice naturally then manifests itself through bias. One tends to lead to the other.

It can, but not uniformly and not always predictably.

There are several reasons why there is no easy translation from one to the other in football refereeing. One, which I've mentioned before, is professional pride. The determination to 'do a good job', indeed to 'excel' is a powerful motive force in most professions and that can definitely act to neutralise bias.

The second is so obvious that we sometimes forget it. Referees perform in front of 60,000 people - and millions more on TV and streams. Systematic bias is therefore much harder to conceal than in, say, the police force (Eeyore's favourite hobby horse). The scrutiny of referees is incredible when you think about it. Their performances are mulled over and argued about incessantly. I'd go so far as to say that there is no other profession in Britain which is subjected to so much intense and detailed scrutiny as a Premier League referee.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3026 on: March 28, 2024, 07:55:17 pm »
Bias? I wouldn't use that word. I'd use 'prejudice'. That prejudice is probably not as widely held as you think it is, and certainly isn't systematic. It's obviously not a prejudice that works as destructively as say the prejudice against racial or ethnic minorities - though I'm sure you'd agree with that.

Against LFC? Again, not a bias, but a strong dislike in certain quarters (as there is against Manchester United). Why? Jealousy, envy. The banner on the Kop says it well - 'You wish you were us'. We drive the opposition to frenzy because we're so fucking great and have been for a long, long time. Personally I blame Shanks. 

As SOS has stated prejudice almost inevitably leads to bias, conscious or subconscious. As for the comparison between racism and prejudice against people from Liverpool, the huge difference is that only the latter is socially acceptable. Imagine the reaction if tragedy or poverty chanting was replaced with racist chanting.



PGMOL corrupt? No.

If the PGMOL isn't a corrupt organisation then how can you explain the extraordinary levels of nepotism and favoritism. Can you explain why when it receives criticism it closes ranks and resorts to gaslighting as evidenced by Webb and his appearances on Sky.

Can you explain why it doesn't have anti-corruption protocols in place to prevent referees working for the owners of Premier league clubs.

Can you explain why VAR officials lie to referees about what the TV pictures clearly show.

Can you explain why Lee Mason was sacked for being incompetent and then given a role coaching referees.

Can you explain why Clattenberg was told he could have special access to officials.   
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3027 on: March 28, 2024, 08:35:51 pm »
It can, but not uniformly and not always predictably.

There are several reasons why there is no easy translation from one to the other in football refereeing. One, which I've mentioned before, is professional pride. The determination to 'do a good job', indeed to 'excel' is a powerful motive force in most professions and that can definitely act to neutralise bias.

The second is so obvious that we sometimes forget it. Referees perform in front of 60,000 people - and millions more on TV and streams. Systematic bias is therefore much harder to conceal than in, say, the police force (Eeyore's favourite hobby horse). The scrutiny of referees is incredible when you think about it. Their performances are mulled over and argued about incessantly. I'd go so far as to say that there is no other profession in Britain which is subjected to so much intense and detailed scrutiny as a Premier League referee.

If that was true then why aren't referees allowed to officiate games involving the team they support?

Surely their professional pride and the number of people watching would ensure their bias and prejudice would magically disappear. As a cricket fan, you must have admired the professionalism and coverage that ensured Indian and Australian umpires were scrupulously clean when umpiring their own country. It seems a waste of money flying in neutral umpires when professionalism and TV footage would suffice.   
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3028 on: March 28, 2024, 09:09:20 pm »
There is a definite incentive for an investigative journalist. To blow the lid off a corruption scandal at PGMOL would make someone's career. Many journalists live for such moments. But right now there doesn't be a whiff of interest in pursuing what is so blindingly obvious to Eeyore and others. That doesn't mean Eeyore and his gang are wrong. But it does require some explaining. I must say also that I don't know of any non-Liverpool supporter, or group of supporters, who do think that there is PGMOL corruption against Liverpool. Again, it doesn't prove there isn't. But you'd expect someone, no matter how partisan for an opposing club, to say "Hang on a minute, the scousers might have a point..." But no one does (I know what the 'answer' to this will be, but I don't think it's convincing. Not everyone in the world hates Liverpool to the point of blindness).

The Tomkins stuff is interesting but far from conclusive. There are, for example, good explanations aside from corruption that can account for 'outlier' statistics such as that attached to Mo.

Also, I don't know if you've noticed, but the minute anyone in this thread engages Eeyore and the gang and treats them seriously enough to ask an honest question they retreat into sarcasm mode. In other words they run away. They don't actually want to discuss their hypothesis. That's a bad sign I think.

I'll ask you again (for the fifth time is it? I've lost count)


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Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3029 on: March 28, 2024, 09:18:02 pm »
I'll ask you again (for the fifth time is it? I've lost count)


"They both went in high"

I think he has run away. ;)
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3030 on: March 28, 2024, 09:52:03 pm »
I'll ask you again (for the fifth time is it? I've lost count)


"They both went in high"

Sorry Andy, I wasn't aware you'd asked me this question. In fact I'm not sure what the question is.

The phrase however is completely inept, as was the original decision. It was a pen, and VAR should have asked the unsighted ref to have a look at the monitor. The way I would have phrased it - and I have addressed this before (which you might have missed) - is that both players legitimately went for a high-bouncing ball. One with a leg, obviously, the other with his chest. Mac Allister beat Doku to it fractionally and that was enough to warrant a penalty because the City player's leg impeded the Liverpool player's momentum. I don't think there was anything vicious about Doku's challenge. I think he was trying to bring the ball under control rather than blast it clear and his foot movement was actually laterally across Macca's chest rather than a full-blooded thrust towards Macca - say in the manner of de Jong's famous assault on Alonso in the World Cup Final. But Doku was surely taken by surprise by how quickly Mac Allister was on to the ball. I was too. He doesn't look to be the favourite as the ball is bouncing upwards!  (again, I've posted my thoughts on this already, but you seem to have missed them). Doku took a risk and he failed. Man City should have paid the price. They didn't. Was this corruption? No, I don't think so. It was incompetence, followed by the all-too-usual apologetics from the refereeing establishment.

 
If that was true then why aren't referees allowed to officiate games involving the team they support?

Surely their professional pride and the number of people watching would ensure their bias and prejudice would magically disappear. As a cricket fan, you must have admired the professionalism and coverage that ensured Indian and Australian umpires were scrupulously clean when umpiring their own country. It seems a waste of money flying in neutral umpires when professionalism and TV footage would suffice.   

Do you think they should officiate games involving the team they support? That seems intuitively wrong to me. And to most people I suspect. Even if they did a decent job, it would always generate suspicion. Rightly so.

I'm not sure the point you're making about cricket umpires, or its relevance. Perhaps you're being sarcastic again? Australian umpires were notorious for favouring Australia before the advent of neutral umpires (not a single LBW decision for England in a 6-Test Ashes series in 1971!) Indian umpires were almost as bad. Against that. I suppose, English and certainly West Indian umpires had a reputation for fairness). But neutral umpires have been a vast improvement for the game.

But like I say, I'm not sure why you think this is relevant.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 09:54:07 pm by Yorkykopite »
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3031 on: March 28, 2024, 10:09:14 pm »
Do you think they should officiate games involving the team they support? That seems intuitively wrong to me. And to most people I suspect. Even if they did a decent job, it would always generate suspicion. Rightly so.

I'm not sure the point you're making about cricket umpires, or its relevance. Perhaps you're being sarcastic again? Australian umpires were notorious for favouring Australia before the advent of neutral umpires (not a single LBW decision for England in a 6-Test Ashes series in 1971!) Indian umpires were almost as bad. Against that. I suppose, English and certainly West Indian umpires had a reputation for fairness). But neutral umpires have been a vast improvement for the game.

But like I say, I'm not sure why you think this is relevant.

It was your assertion that professional pride and the number of viewers would ensure that bias or prejudice would not affect an official's decision-making. Does that mean cricket umpires do not have professional pride or that cricket, especially on the sub-continent does not have huge viewing figures?

Another example would be boxing judges. Surely professional pride and the number of TV viewers would ensure you don't get hometown decisions. Both sports for me show clearly that bias certainly does affect the officiating of sport.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3032 on: March 28, 2024, 10:26:27 pm »
How about revising the refereeing system altogether? Perhaps every PL club can name one referee out of a large pool of referees (2-3 times the current one) and said referee cannot be used in said club's games. Or at least give voice to the clubs ranking all PL referees and the bottom 3-4 referees give way to new referees from the Championship; relegation and promotion system.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3033 on: March 28, 2024, 10:27:20 pm »
If we all agree that neutral umpires are good for cricket, and referees not officiating games involving their club are good for football, then surely it stands to reason that the refereeing population should be evenly spread across the country and supporter bases to ensure that biases against rivals or towards outcomes favouring certain clubs are minimised?

If we all agree that PGMOL is an organisation that allows bias, incompetence and unaccountability to fester, not to mention lucrative side gigs funded by club owners, does that meet the threshold of corruption?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 10:29:59 pm by GreatEx »

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3034 on: March 28, 2024, 10:32:15 pm »
You mean this game? The one where we got awarded a penalty, Chelsea had two penalty shouts turned down and also had an appeal for a foul in the build up to one of our goals turned down?

This is why it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation around this subject. Every incident is upgraded from subjective to a certainty, every mistake is adjudged to be a deliberate decision, every appeal for motive is sidestepped and every counterpoint is ignored.

Bang. On.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3035 on: March 28, 2024, 11:26:32 pm »
If we all agree that neutral umpires are good for cricket, and referees not officiating games involving their club are good for football, then surely it stands to reason that the refereeing population should be evenly spread across the country and supporter bases to ensure that biases against rivals or towards outcomes favouring certain clubs are minimised?

If we all agree that PGMOL is an organisation that allows bias, incompetence and unaccountability to fester, not to mention lucrative side gigs funded by club owners, does that meet the threshold of corruption?

Absolutely spot on.

The select group of referees since its inception has basically been a mainly northern, white, middle aged cabal. London for instance has a population of around 9 million but no select group referees. There are no ethnic minority select group referees, no women. The leadership of the PGMOL follows the same pattern.

This is from a couple of years ago but illustrates the lack of diversity perfectly.



What makes it even worse is the lack of rotation of referees. The clearest example being Tierney doing 9 of Liverpool's first 29 League games as Referee or VAR.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3036 on: March 28, 2024, 11:37:12 pm »
I now see why Arsenal fans get so pissed off with the refereeing. And no wonder that Norwich can never last more than a season in the Premier League.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3037 on: March 29, 2024, 12:00:29 am »
Sorry Andy, I wasn't aware you'd asked me this question. In fact I'm not sure what the question is.

The phrase however is completely inept, as was the original decision. It was a pen, and VAR should have asked the unsighted ref to have a look at the monitor. The way I would have phrased it - and I have addressed this before (which you might have missed) - is that both players legitimately went for a high-bouncing ball. One with a leg, obviously, the other with his chest. Mac Allister beat Doku to it fractionally and that was enough to warrant a penalty because the City player's leg impeded the Liverpool player's momentum. I don't think there was anything vicious about Doku's challenge. I think he was trying to bring the ball under control rather than blast it clear and his foot movement was actually laterally across Macca's chest rather than a full-blooded thrust towards Macca - say in the manner of de Jong's famous assault on Alonso in the World Cup Final. But Doku was surely taken by surprise by how quickly Mac Allister was on to the ball. I was too. He doesn't look to be the favourite as the ball is bouncing upwards!  (again, I've posted my thoughts on this already, but you seem to have missed them). Doku took a risk and he failed. Man City should have paid the price. They didn't. Was this corruption? No, I don't think so. It was incompetence, followed by the all-too-usual apologetics from the refereeing establishment.



Right. So you are saying that the high boot which wasn't recognised was an error, followed by the 'he got the ball first' was also and error and not awarding the obvious penalty for dangerous play was an error. We are saying that the VAR basically telling the AVAR to fuck off (paraphrased) was also an error? And we're saying that the referees first statement 'Not for me' was also an error. That's a lot of mistakes in one go.

'Mistakes' is what we're calling them.

But.

We can't, can we? An independant panel agreed that there was no error.

On top of that, the head of PGMOL went on TV and said that the decision was the correct one.


If it had been a 'mistake' then it would have been poor. If they'd apologised again for a 'mistake' then that would have been poor. I wonder why Webb chose to say the correct decision was made - perhaps because if he'd admitted a 'mistake' then people would be forced to look at where the officials had been reffing. Would a connection have been made to look at any outside interest and any Premier League clubs that might hold sway.

That would be a can of worms, wouldn't it.


So what we have is a host of errors, an independant panel finding that there were no errors and the head of the PGMOL gaslighting everyone, telling everyone that what they saw clearly and in subsequent videos and photographs was, in fact, NOT what everyone had seen after all.



Now. This is just one decision. We also have the Arsenal handball - VAR lying again. We also have the assault on Gravenberch - VAR lying again. We also have the mistakes in the Spurs match - quite a few in there, weren't there and the team of officials that made those decisions was interesting to see. We also have random other mistakes - including, incredibly a match official actually assaulting a Liverpool player - for which we got more gaslighting from PGMOL.


So. We're all stupid. None of the things that we saw the first time, nor on replays, nor on any photograph isn't what anyone saw at all.


Aren't we all so silly. We should just mind our pretty little heads and stop trying to work out what PGMOL are playing at, and instead do some embroidery or knitting or croquet.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3038 on: March 29, 2024, 12:01:26 am »
I now see why Arsenal fans get so pissed off with the refereeing. And no wonder that Norwich can never last more than a season in the Premier League.

You can be as glib as you like, but surely you can see you're arguing contradictory points here... first you say there may be corruption in government but natural prejudice in football refereeing does not necessarily entail bias or corruption because of the important distinction of its public nature, then in your next post you say cricket umpiring had a bias problem that was solved with neutrality, now you're dismissing the question of whether lack of neutrality could be a problem in football. Exactly where do you stand, or is this just a contrarian reflex you can't control?

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3039 on: March 29, 2024, 12:17:28 am »
I now see why Arsenal fans get so pissed off with the refereeing. And no wonder that Norwich can never last more than a season in the Premier League.

Is that how it works Yorky people show bias towards people from your own locality.

The PGMOL has been headed up by 3 people. Keith Hackett from Sheffield, Mike Riley from Leeds and Howard Webb from Rotherham. This season we had Jon Moss from Leeds as the Select group Director and Martin Atkinson from Leeds as the Select group coach.

I suppose it is fortunate we haven't got someone from Yorkshire on here tying themselves in knots defending the Yorkshire 5 PGMOL. ;D ;D

As a proud Yorkshireman maybe you could explain what makes people from such a small locality absolutely ace at getting the top jobs in the PGMOL. It can't be nepotism though because that would make the organisation corrupt. On the plus side, the top position on the Women's side is taken by a German Lady.

Here is a picture of her on her wedding day.



Yep the Women's Professional Game Director is none other than Mrs Webb.

 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2024, 12:19:46 am by Eeyore »
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