Topic: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.

[Eeyore]

That's his 'out'.

He loves playing it to either his CB partner or back to the GK. With Reina there to do his job for him in terms of moving the ball forward then it was less of an issue. But with Mignolet still having to learn to use his feet more, and look as if he's learning on the job largely, then it's a problem.

Skrtel goes back the 'keeper might be seen as a successful pass in the numbers but if he's rely on Mignolet to distribute the ball because he cant do it himself, then thats the problem.

Isn't the problem though that you are relying on traditionally the least gifted players having the majority of possession. Usually if you look at a squad of players then your keeper and your two centre backs are probably your worst footballers. You get the odd exception but primarily their roles are too nullify the opposition not pass them to death. Normally they don't have to be exceptionally gifted because usually they have a numerical advantage.

Our problem seems to be that because teams like Southampton know that we won't knock it long to our forwards or into the likes of Gerrard or Henderson they can press in huge numbers and skew the numerical advantage that the keeper and centre backs normally have. They form a high block that means are least gifted players are continually pressed and inevitably give up possession.

Southampton played a high line with aerially dominant centre backs and lightening quick full backs which left us playing in ever decreasing circles at the back. They went man to man on the back four and went tight on Lucas meaning we didn't have a way of playing out until there intensity dropped just before half time. Their compactness closed the space between our back four and midfield and stopped Gerrard dropping between the lines and getting on the ball. For me we lacked variety, it was a case of a touch each for the back four followed by Mignolet chipping sixty yards to the dugout.

Even without an out ball you can mix it up more than that. Even if Mignolet knocks it long into the channels straightaway occasionally it would turn their defence and make us more unpredictable. Even if you can't win the first header you can press and win the second ball and start pushing them backwards. the main thing for me though is if we haven't got 18-20 players who are extremely comfortable on the ball then we need to think of bringing in a physical presence upfront.

It doesn't mean we have to throw the baby out with the bath water and turn in to a long ball team but it would mean we could bypass a high block and stop teams gambling and pressing us in such numbers. As soon as that happens it becomes easier and easier for us to pass the ball out from the back because we would of regained the crucial numerical advantage. 

[ser_renely]

From 1st to 5th. That is what gets me.

I think that just shows how little room for error there is. Clearly with less games having been played makes it very tight, but I think you can extrapolate and see how things may pan out.

We had a great start to the season, and other teams have had relatively poor starts, yet we are pretty much only a couple points ahead of them.

[steveeastend]

Isn't the problem though that you are relying on traditionally the least gifted players having the majority of possession. Usually if you look at a squad of players then your keeper and your two centre backs are probably your worst footballers. You get the odd exception but primarily their roles are too nullify the opposition not pass them to death. Normally they don't have to be exceptionally gifted because usually they have a numerical advantage.

Our problem seems to be that because teams like Southampton know that we won't knock it long to our forwards or into the likes of Gerrard or Henderson they can press in huge numbers and skew the numerical advantage that the keeper and centre backs normally have. They form a high block that means are least gifted players are continually pressed and inevitably give up possession.

Southampton played a high line with aerially dominant centre backs and lightening quick full backs which left us playing in ever decreasing circles at the back. They went man to man on the back four and went tight on Lucas meaning we didn't have a way of playing out until there intensity dropped just before half time. Their compactness closed the space between our back four and midfield and stopped Gerrard dropping between the lines and getting on the ball. For me we lacked variety, it was a case of a touch each for the back four followed by Mignolet chipping sixty yards to the dugout.

Even without an out ball you can mix it up more than that. Even if Mignolet knocks it long into the channels straightaway occasionally it would turn their defence and make us more unpredictable. Even if you can't win the first header you can press and win the second ball and start pushing them backwards. the main thing for me though is if we haven't got 18-20 players who are extremely comfortable on the ball then we need to think of bringing in a physical presence upfront.

It doesn't mean we have to throw the baby out with the bath water and turn in to a long ball team but it would mean we could bypass a high block and stop teams gambling and pressing us in such numbers. As soon as that happens it becomes easier and easier for us to pass the ball out from the back because we would of regained the crucial numerical advantage. 

Great post mate. We couldn´t do that because the players didn´t show up (again), the reasons may be different compared to last season but still there are too many players out there who aren´t able to force themselves into a game when it doesn´t look like an easy job in the first place.

[Aristotle]

I find it very strange how little this upset me. In reality this is our best start since 2008, when we picked up 11 points from Sunderland, Boro, Mancs, Villa and Stoke. In league terms our form is consistent with City & Chelsea, clubs who had a much better squad to begin with and spent a lot of money on new players, bringing in two big money, big profile managers. Our results are arguably better than City's, at least prior to yesterday. Wins against Newcastle & Hull, defeat to newly promoted Cardiff and a draw to Stoke. Their win against Manchester United swings momentum in their favour and given how they won they should be feeling they have 5 dropped points rather than 10 earned. Similarly our joint 3rd counterparts in Chelsea wouldn't have been too unhappy with our form thus far. A win against Hull, Villa & Fulham, draw against Manchester United and a loss against Everton would not have been acceptable under 'The Special One' once upon a time.

Prior to the season a majority of us would've taken being on equal points to City & Chelsea after 5 games. It's our best start in 5 years. We're already showing signs of improvements (and some worries, but so be it). We've got Sunderland, Crystal Palace & Newcastle next in our next 3 games. Assuming we address the issues we've had, the potential impact of Suarez and Mignolet's form there's no reason we won't get better results in the next few games. We've had a reality check that, judging by the manager's words and the increasingly impressive Kolo Toure it is something that we will use as a learning experience and something that no one wants to repeat. We use this game to drive us forward against the Mancs and take things from there.

[PhaseOfPlay]

From 1st to 5th. That is what gets me.

I think that just shows how little room for error there is. Clearly with less games having been played makes it very tight, but I think you can extrapolate and see how things may pan out.

We had a great start to the season, and other teams have had relatively poor starts, yet we are pretty much only a couple points ahead of them.

Five games in. Seriously. Don't look at the position, look at the points gap. We're 2 points off the top. That's what counts. This time last season we were 11 points off the top. Table position only means something at the end of the season. Keeping pace with the top is most important. You get nothing for being 1st in September.

[Eeyore]

Great post mate. We couldn´t do that because the players didn´t show up (again), the reasons may be different compared to last season but still there are too many players out there who aren´t able to force themselves into a game when it doesn´t look like an easy job in the first place.

One of the biggest problems for me is that English midfield players simply don't want to show for the ball. In this country we have a culture of the long ball upto the front man and then looking to play from there. The English team has suffered from that problem for decades, we get pressed and the midfield players aren't prepared to demand the ball in tight situations partly for me because we interpret the rules differently here and allow players to tackle from behind far more forceably than the do in say La Liga.

Aspas is a prime example the slightest pressure from behind and he is sprawled on the ground looking for a free kick. in La Liga it's a free kick whilst here it is the kind of up and at them attitude that the fans love. On Saturday of the midfield four we had three players in Moses, Gerrard and Henderson who have been brought up in the English system and are really uncomfortable playing with their back to goal. Without Coutinho and Suarez we don't have players who want the ball under pressure and for me we struggle to cope with pressing.

I think the way forward is to bring in players who can cope with receiving the ball under pressure but given our reluctance to pay the going rate for ready made players that transition isn't going to be instant. So for me in the meantime we need to bring in someone who can hold the ball up and bypass the high block. Get the play turned and get our midfield players facing the opposition's goal were they are far more comfortable. 

[ser_renely]

I know people were a bit upset with our defensive line-up.  I think I understood sort of why Rodgers did what he did, but I thought we should have played three at the back if Enrique was not going to play...but hindsight.  I think Rodgers really wanted to keep Sakho in the team, while having Agger return as well.  I think this caused his team selection problem. We should have just put Skrtel on the bench again.

Rodgers knows Toure has played RB a fair amount and Wisdom has been poor there and there was no way he was going to play him again.

Skrtel has done pretty well at CB, so another game for him made sort of made sense.  We always thought he was a blunder away and it certainly does seem like that is always the case.

Sakho needed to play again, we need to get him up to speed,  since he looks to be promising.  So it made sense to have him in the team. 

I guess the only question was could Enrique have played 90 minutes?

The defensive selection did not lose the game for us, the players did, but I in hindsight it did not seem the best move for the team.  It seemed the best move for keeping a CBs happy by playing.

[redtel]

Many fingers pointed at different players and areas of the team that could have caused the debacle we witnessed on Sat with Skrtel and BR getting severe criticism from various seats around the table.

I too was shocked at the team sheet at 2pm but I would like to draw attention to our last defeat which was down at St Mary's v The Saints.

We fielded our normal FB's alongside Skrtel and Agger.

    1 Jones, 3 Enrique, 2 Johnson, 5 Agger, 37 Skrtel, 8 Gerrard (c), 24 Allen (21 Lucas 45), 19 Downing, 10 Coutinho, 7 Suarez, 15 Sturridge (14 Henderson 83)

The result was our worst performance of the season. This is from Liverweb report:

"We got exactly what we deserved from this match and that was nothing. We were second best all over the pitch and this wasn't a case of one or two players being off the boil it was all of them.

These kind of games are always the hardest to write reports for because you just can't summon up anything about them. If you lose but it's unlucky in a good game you can get away with it but when you are so poor and just lose deservedly it's hard to write."

In other words even with Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge playing we were hopeless, not to mention Johnson and a fit Enrique.

I think Al is correct. We cannot cope with Soton's pressing and even after HT on Sat we came out and tried to play from the back with no variation.

We should at least try to vary it and play a ball long over the pressing team.  Pochettino has us sussed.

You can be sure other teams will be applying this tactic although it requires great fitness. Soton did ease off pressing in the 15mins prior to HT but came out all guns blazing after the break.

Gerrard may be the elephant in the room for BR  but he  needs to have a plan B to move the ball forward without losing it as happened on Sat.

[ser_renely]

Five games in. Seriously. Don't look at the position, look at the points gap. We're 2 points off the top. That's what counts. This time last season we were 11 points off the top. Table position only means something at the end of the season. Keeping pace with the top is most important. You get nothing for being 1st in September.

I know what you mean, but we just had one of our better starts to a season, and we are now fifth.  Sort of a punch to the gut.  We may be 2 points back, but when you extrapolate, we will be way more back.

I am happy with our position. I am disappointing that we could have created a buffer and didn't take advantages of other teams "slow starts". 

Essentially some teams that have had a slow start have the same number of points as our very good start.

[steveeastend]

One of the biggest problems for me is that English midfield players simply don't want to show for the ball.

It did look like that in this game, especially whenever the game doesn´t go easily our way. Under pressure, players usually fall into old habits which would explain this.

[Twelfth Man]

We are trying to play a short passing Barcelona style game, with essentially Lucas aside a British midfield. It is not going to work. You can get away with it, when we take the game to the opposition, the full-backs bomb forward, Coutinho/Suarez weave their magic, but not when the opposition is well organised, and good at pressing the midfield area and negating Luis/Phil and the full-backs pushing on. I reckon you could partner Yaya Toure with Lucas on Saturday and we would still get pinned back, because we had zero width, with both Sakho and Toure reluctant to get forward and tight with our attackers. We left huge gaps down the flanks that Soton ceaselessly attacked down and meant our midfield was forever back-peddling, or forced to ping it long.

[Fat Scouser]

Five games in.

Too many people building up too many hopes and getting too carried away by something that should have been expected.

Al explained it at length. I tried to put it in a nutshell earlier, when we have got 20 odd players that can play the way Brendan wants, this sort of result and performance might become the odd blip. But until that time, we can expect lots more of this.

We are making the same basic mistakes as we were when Brendan first arrived. While we do that, teams are always in with a chance of turning of us over.

Southampton done the same thing to us last season at their gaff. They came with the intention of doing it at Anfield. But it doesn't take a high pressing game to beat us. Teams that can counter and break quickly, are just as content and comfortable, sitting back waiting for us to fuck up.

That's not a dig at Brendan, nor his tactics and philosophy. It's an opinion. It won't damage what Brendan's trying to do. Building up hopes, having irrational expectations and booing the players when them expectations aren't met, are what will do the damage.

[Durlmints]

Too many people building up too many hopes and getting too carried away by something that should have been expected.

Al explained it at length. I tried to put it in a nutshell earlier, when we have got 20 odd players that can play the way Brendan wants, this sort of result and performance might become the odd blip. But until that time, we can expect lots more of this.

We are making the same basic mistakes as we were when Brendan first arrived. While we do that, teams are always in with a chance of turning of us over.

Southampton done the same thing to us last season at their gaff. They came with the intention of doing it at Anfield. But it doesn't take a high pressing game to beat us. Teams that can counter and break quickly, are just as content and comfortable, sitting back waiting for us to fuck up.

That's not a dig at Brendan, nor his tactics and philosophy. It's an opinion. It won't damage what Brendan's trying to do. Building up hopes, having irrational expectations and booing the players when them expectations aren't met, are what will do the damage.

To be fair though, as we discussed in the other thread, it's only the bad bad whoppers who boo the team after a result like that.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I know what you mean, but we just had one of our better starts to a season, and we are now fifth.  Sort of a punch to the gut.  We may be 2 points back, but when you extrapolate, we will be way more back.

How are you doing your extrapolating, though? If we go by points percentage, then we are looking at 76 points for the season, with Arsenal and Spurs at 90 points or so. 76 points would give us top four almost all seasons previously. Our win percentage right now gets is 22-23 wins, which is usually more than enough for top four. So we're actually in good shape for now, regardless of what position in the table we are in. 

I am happy with our position. I am disappointing that we could have created a buffer and didn't take advantages of other teams "slow starts". 

Essentially some teams that have had a slow start have the same number of points as our very good start.

It's swings and roundabouts until just after Christmas. If we maintain the same type of form until then, we will be in a great spot to push on and really solidify a top four spot

[exiledinyorkshire]

But thats what makes the difference doesn't it? Small margins and all that.

Ok maybe Skrtel cannot be fully blamed but then Agger lost his man and the goal was scored. Thats a direct error in my view. When we are not playing well we cannot just write off defensive mistakes.

The midfield was awful. I think thats pretty clear and its also quite clearly the weakest area of our team. I think it shows how much progress we have made though that a midfield with Gerrard and Lucas is now our weakest area. With the attack we have along with the new additions in defence (who I think are both ahead of Agger and Skrtel), the midfield seems a bit off.

We have conceded 3 goals.

Couldn't agree more. Great post.

[JackWard33]

I know what you mean, but we just had one of our better starts to a season, and we are now fifth.  Sort of a punch to the gut.  We may be 2 points back, but when you extrapolate, we will be way more back.

I am happy with our position. I am disappointing that we could have created a buffer and didn't take advantages of other teams "slow starts". 

Essentially some teams that have had a slow start have the same number of points as our very good start.

This post makes me want to put long rusty needles into my eyes rather than look at it
Please please be on a wind up

[shanks_legend]

One of the biggest problems for me is that English midfield players simply don't want to show for the ball. In this country we have a culture of the long ball upto the front man and then looking to play from there. The English team has suffered from that problem for decades, we get pressed and the midfield players aren't prepared to demand the ball in tight situations partly for me because we interpret the rules differently here and allow players to tackle from behind far more forceably than the do in say La Liga.

Aspas is a prime example the slightest pressure from behind and he is sprawled on the ground looking for a free kick. in La Liga it's a free kick whilst here it is the kind of up and at them attitude that the fans love. On Saturday of the midfield four we had three players in Moses, Gerrard and Henderson who have been brought up in the English system and are really uncomfortable playing with their back to goal. Without Coutinho and Suarez we don't have players who want the ball under pressure and for me we struggle to cope with pressing.

I think the way forward is to bring in players who can cope with receiving the ball under pressure but given our reluctance to pay the going rate for ready made players that transition isn't going to be instant. So for me in the meantime we need to bring in someone who can hold the ball up and bypass the high block. Get the play turned and get our midfield players facing the opposition's goal were they are far more comfortable.

Suarez can and does do this for us. Sturridge does too, to an extent - He just doesnt do it as well consistently, as Suarez does. More often than not Suarez will hold it up and play it off/turn and nutmegs/win the free kick

[SerbianScouser]

Suarez can and does do this for us. Sturridge does too, to an extent - He just doesnt do it as well consistently, as Suarez does. More often than not Suarez will hold it up and play it off/turn and nutmegs/win the free kick

In terms of holding it up I thought Sturridge`s performance against City at Etihad was exceptional but these days he can`t make it stick up front to save his life. It`s weird and it`s a shame at the same time. He`s got the techinque and his got the power but I just don`t know why he can`t repeat that performance. Come to think of it , it was quite similar at OT where he allowed us to play in front of their box the whole second half.

[Rufus Bullimore]

The team should learn from this.

And I hope they do. I'm getting really sick of these teams waltzing onto the Anfield pitch and getting three point so easily.

[Fat Scouser]

To be fair though, as we discussed in the other thread, it's only the bad bad whoppers who boo the team after a result like that.

And to keep it fair, there's an awful lot of bad whoppers there nowadays.

[TSC]

The important think now is obviously to ensure this doesn't become a bad run.  That means beating managerless Sunderland at the weekend.  Otherwise the excellent start regresses into 3 games without a win.  The plus side is that Suarez return will hopefully more than make up for the lack of creativity with Coutinho out, assuming Luis doesn't do something silly against the mancs on Wed.

[TheMissionary]

Prof at 12:57 (too big a post to quote).

You're right Gerrard should have provided Toure with somewhere to get rid, but the problem was that Toure had the ball on half way, from a throw in half way inside the Soton half!  We had an attacking throw and threw backwards, it then went further back and Skrtel ballsed it up, then a corner came from their throw.

Why do they knock it backwards when we could be threatening?  What's so special about ball retention at the expense of threatening? It happens too often, we do it with free kicks too; free kick short of the centre circle, knocked wide or back, knocked further back, knocked across the box, passed to Mignolet who, under the pressure we've invited, belts it up the pitch where it's challenged for about 20 yards further forward than the free kick was.  Why bother?  Why not just launch it to their goalie?  At least then the ball's as far from our goal as it can be.   What's wrong, is there nobody to give it to up front?  Can Sturridge not keep hold ?  Does the midfield not want to move from ...midfield?  It's so frigging frustrating.  We don't want to become a long ball team just launching it into the box but there must be a better alternative than putting ourselves under pressure by being so negative.  Goals win games, not possession statistics.  We need to play passing footy in the opposition half, not our own box.  We need players who can stand over a ball (dead or otherwise) and look up and forward and play it accordingly.  We need players who want to win more than they don't want to lose (if that makes sense), we have a couple in Suarez and Coutinho but the rest seem scared of their own shadows.   

Sorry for the rant.  I work with a Soton supporter and he will be insufferable until we do them in March.

[Jizzinho]

Please. Firstly, "Mou"? And secondly, look at the personnel that twat has compared with our manager. Oscar, De Bruyne, Schurrle, Hazard, Willian. That's about £80 million worth of attacking midfield talent. Dropping Mata is not a big decision when you have those kinds of alternatives, yet you seem to be suggesting dropping Gerrard in favour of who?

It is a big decision.

Mata is acknowledged across the board as one of the outstanding players in the Prme last year in general and a major source of Chelsea's points in particular. If he gets dropped and Chelsea don't bag the requisite points it puts Mourinho in a position where he will lose a lot of authority. Safest thing to do would be to leave him in the team and replace him if he's not working out in January. The Chelsea manager has not taken the safe option.

Which leads us to Gerrard.

I'm not saying he needs to be dropped but we need to find a better way to utilize him in the team. If our only option is to play him where is is for the rest of the season then we had better pray that Southampton are the high watermark of midfields we will be facing - frankly, that doesn't sound like a plan that is likely to work. If we are going to drop deep when his legs have gone I would much rather see him playing the apex role and trying Henderson out in the deeper position. although he may not be able to press as effectively, he could put the strikers through or at least be likely to win free kicks in dangerous positions.

In any case, time has moved on and Gerrard is no longer our future, however harsh that may sound. We need to be planning ahead and maximizing the impact of his appearances for us rather than building the team around him on the basis he will always be there. This will be the true test of whether the System really is "the King".

Like I said, big managers make big decisions.

[Gnurglan]

Not sure why Gerrard-Lucas is seen as a problem. I reckon it's more important to have the player upfield who can hold the ball up. Both Lucas and Gerrard try to get the ball forward. When we lose possession easily, we force them to work defensively, so naturally they will tire. But I don't think they are the problem.

[Whelan and dealin]

The only way to prevent the Southampton game from becoming a blueprint for beating us is a) vary distribution from the goalkeeper b) play with full backs and not 4 cb's c) take advantage of high pressing games by dropping more cm's back to create 2 on 1s and just pass around them d) react to the oppositions style if they are having joy do not keep playing into their hands FFS !

[mrantarctica]

It's not one thing in isolation. Gerrard and Lucas sitting deep mean that there's a very large gap between our front man DS and our midfield. Coutinho might occupy this gap but Aspas is not THAT type of player. He's a player that looks best operating on the shoulder of the last defender instead.

Playing this strategy means our two forward players have to be capable of holding the ball up to retain possession while support arrives. Against Soton neither DS or Aspas were able to do this, and this was compounded by the fact that there was little support from our fullbacks or midfield.

We should be looking to compress the game into their half. This makes it harder for the opposition to settle on the ball and rely on more direct routes to get past our defenders. Pressing in a half is much less tiring than the whole pitch. Pressing in their half is better than our own.

Not having a fullback advancing down the wings significantly cuts down our options to release pressure. Instead we're distributing the ball in the middle third between Lucas-Gerrard and a back four who didn't look comfortable on the ball. It's then a simple matter of pressing hard to force a pass back to the keeper or a marginal pass to move the team forward. If the 50-50 is made, with a deep midfield and no advanced fullbacks, there's little chance of securing that 2nd ball when play breaks down.

These are all tactical elements which I think became obvious during the game but we couldn't do much about because of our inability to change the core problems namely 1) an immobile/static CM pairing 2) no fullbacks getting forward 3) players holding the ball up and having high pass completion

[Koplord]

Still feeling pretty down about this result even after a few days mainly because it has shown just how thin the squad is and just how many windows it will take to build a really competitive team.

On the match its self before hand i was talking amongst mates and my personal feeling to cure the RB problem and the number of Cb's we have was to go 3412. I even mentioned it about how Southampton away last season they suffocated us and forced us into mistakes  so an extra midfielder could be needed and at the end of the match everything i thought could go wrong had gone wrong.

Southampton pressured us on the ball forcing us to surrender possession and the two CBs in fullback positions had us lacking as expected although i though Kolo played well in every position he played. I was baffled at Sterling being brought on at half time when I felt we needed another midfielder which I thought we would need before kick off so for me Alberto at half time was the logical substitution , but in saying that we looked fucked again from early in the second half so im not sure any changes would of made a real difference once we lost the legs in midfield. Looking back now Although Southamptoon pressured us well  and were tactically brilliant i also think many of the players were off the pace which renders any sort of passing / possession football near impossible to achieve.

What I have learnt about the squad these past few weeks is that We lack a decent wide man or two ( Which we knew ) we lack energy in the CM area , We lack creativity without Coutinho (Which we all knew we would if he got injured) and we are a striker short at the moment given Aspas's struggles adjusting to the league

[RedHopper]

to be honest, given that we played four centre halves at the back, and gerrard and lucas as a two man midfield, against a high tempo, energetic pass and move team like southampton, it's actually rather impressive that it didn't actually turn out any worse. It was a set up that exposed our players relative weaknesses to the maximum degree. But As has been mentioned earlier, we didn't really have a whole heap of options.

I think that after winning the first three games of the season, that match may well have opened our eyes a bit to the problems that remain with the squad. Gerrard and lucas running out of gas early in the second half of our games is a problem that we're going to struggle to deal with. But on the plus side we've added sakho, illori, toure and cissokho. The key thing for us is to form as strong and cohesive a unit as possible out of those  players. We're going to suffer in games because our midfield isn't the best, but that shouldn't prevent us getting our defence up to speed. Similarly we've brought in a few forwards. These players have to be given a chance to settle, get used to the english game, and then become part of a cohesive unit.

A performance and result like this will have the effect of making our expectations a lot more realistic as the season goes on. talk of the top four is madness. What we want to see is signs of progress in the defence and midfield, of development as a unit, and hopefully use this to mask our problems in midfield.

One thing that is  certain though is that rodgers faces a big challenge in dealing with Stevie G. He is a player who wants to play every single minute of every single game, and has to come to terms with the fact that this isn't possible any more. It's worth remembering that Stevie G played 39 league games in the two seasons before Euro 2012. He missed half our games. But instead of retiring from international football, and focusing on stretching out his club career as long as possible,  he's going to be playing in as many internationals as possible, before heading off to brazil for the summer, where based on past experience, england will play unwatchable football before going out limply in the second round. Then he's going to be coming back to play for us. Without having had much of a rest. Stevie doesn't want to take international weeks off. He just doesn't seem to be a big believer in conserving himself. How is he going to respond to being rested? Just how is rodgers going to do this?

At least there's wednesday, and the return of suarez to look forward to.

[Severely]

Not much to add, it just shows the importance of having at least one full back on the field, doesn't it? I would go so far as to say that our midfield wouldn't have looked as poor as it did if they had a Johnson providing an easy outlet to pass to and just let us keep the ball. The lack of width out there made everyone who was playing central, from Gerrard and Lucas to Agger and Skrtel got flustered with the ball, especially as this made it easier for Southampton to press. Just a tactical horror show really. Sturridge looked tired, Aspas looked lost, and I found myself thinking that we really missed Stewart Downing, something I would never have imagined a year ago.

[GreatEx]

One thing that is  certain though is that rodgers faces a big challenge in dealing with Stevie G. He is a player who wants to play every single minute of every single game, and has to come to terms with the fact that this isn't possible any more. It's worth remembering that Stevie G played 39 league games in the two seasons before Euro 2012. He missed half our games. But instead of retiring from international football, and focusing on stretching out his club career as long as possible,  he's going to be playing in as many internationals as possible, before heading off to brazil for the summer, where based on past experience, england will play unwatchable football before going out limply in the second round. Then he's going to be coming back to play for us. Without having had much of a rest. Stevie doesn't want to take international weeks off. He just doesn't seem to be a big believer in conserving himself. How is he going to respond to being rested? Just how is rodgers going to do this?

I've always assumed that Gerrard would play through until the end of the WC 2014 finals, then retire from international football. Not sure what I'm basing that on; possibly just wishful thinking. Are the Euros a strong enough draw to keep him in international football until age 36?

[Prof]

Prof at 12:57 (too big a post to quote).

You're right Gerrard should have provided Toure with somewhere to get rid, but the problem was that Toure had the ball on half way, from a throw in half way inside the Soton half!  We had an attacking throw and threw backwards, it then went further back and Skrtel ballsed it up, then a corner came from their throw.

Why do they knock it backwards when we could be threatening?  What's so special about ball retention at the expense of threatening? It happens too often, we do it with free kicks too; free kick short of the centre circle, knocked wide or back, knocked further back, knocked across the box, passed to Mignolet who, under the pressure we've invited, belts it up the pitch where it's challenged for about 20 yards further forward than the free kick was.  Why bother?  Why not just launch it to their goalie?  At least then the ball's as far from our goal as it can be.   What's wrong, is there nobody to give it to up front?  Can Sturridge not keep hold ?  Does the midfield not want to move from ...midfield?  It's so frigging frustrating.  We don't want to become a long ball team just launching it into the box but there must be a better alternative than putting ourselves under pressure by being so negative.  Goals win games, not possession statistics.  We need to play passing footy in the opposition half, not our own box.  We need players who can stand over a ball (dead or otherwise) and look up and forward and play it accordingly.  We need players who want to win more than they don't want to lose (if that makes sense), we have a couple in Suarez and Coutinho but the rest seem scared of their own shadows.   

Sorry for the rant.  I work with a Soton supporter and he will be insufferable until we do them in March.

When a team plays a high intensity, full press, you have two options.  Bypass the midfield with a direct ball into a target man (which we don't have), or play around the press (which should be our comfort zone).

We are set up to play high possession football, with 'courage on the ball'.  If that is the case, if Gerrard provides the option for Toure or Skrtel, he can use his passing range (the only reason I can think he was deployed as the deep midfielder) to switch the play, outflanking the press.

The general principle is that an overload in one area creates space in another.  Their press overloaded their left wing, leaving space on the right wing.  This is why recycling possession and moving the ball quickly is effective.  It changes the point of attack, causes the opposition to chase shadows, and tires them out.  Death by football.

[RedMichelFerri]

I just love reading round table discussion which is so insightful compared to the crap pundits dish out on TV (even after watching the matches again and discussing it after few days on TV). I thought Rodgers choice of using 4 CB totally backfired. Without any fullback supporting forwards, they were getting doubled up in southhampton's half and without our midfield providing support, we were not going to create much. As much as I like gerrard, Lucas and Henderson, we missed someone in middle who can take on the players. Unfortunately it was opposition (Southhampton and Swansea) who had less gifted midfielder who were much better than ours running at players. With midfield running at us, our wing players were getting sucked in and opposition had lot of space on wings to work the ball. With Suares's arrival, I hope this gets sorted.

   

[subroc]

Five games in. Seriously. Don't look at the position, look at the points gap. We're 2 points off the top. That's what counts. This time last season we were 11 points off the top. Table position only means something at the end of the season. Keeping pace with the top is most important. You get nothing for being 1st in September.

Do you believe that we have a good chance of staying in touch with the leaders until Coutinho returns? In 1 1/2 months, that 2 point gap could become much wider at the rate our team is deteriorating in their style of play. Can Rodgers turn it around and find a way to deploy the players he has to get us creative and dynamic again?

[spider-neil]

From 1st to 5th. That is what gets me.

I think that just shows how little room for error there is. Clearly with less games having been played makes it very tight, but I think you can extrapolate and see how things may pan out.

We had a great start to the season, and other teams have had relatively poor starts, yet we are pretty much only a couple points ahead of them.

It's a cliché but it's only worth looking at the table after 10 games.

[SerbianScouser]

Not sure why Gerrard-Lucas is seen as a problem. I reckon it's more important to have the player upfield who can hold the ball up. Both Lucas and Gerrard try to get the ball forward. When we lose possession easily, we force them to work defensively, so naturally they will tire. But I don't think they are the problem.

Sorry mate but that is classic case of putting head in the sand. You need to rewatch last 15 min and you'll be absolutely shocked at how dead on the feet lucas was. There was a situation where he literally couldn't move. With the money these players get per week it's a bit unproffesional to be that unfit. We were supposed to be chasing result but how can you do that when your engine is completely out of steam.
Of course they weren't the only one fallible but the say nothing is wrong with them is I'm sorry but it's a bit laughable.

[spider-neil]

My biggest issue with Brendan is he seems not to trust the system above all else. It seems to be more about players than a system. For instance, if Johnson was out I would pick someone who most replicates him in style even if I had to pluck that player from the under 21s, same with Enrique and Coutinho. Try to cause as little disruption as humanly possible. It's all hindsight but I would gone with Henderson at right back and Alberto in Coutinho position. Two players who are no where near as accomplished as who they are replacing but at least the shape of the team would have been similar and we would (you'd think) be more competent going forwards.

To me it's like Brendan has his first team and doesn't trust his fringe players.

[subroc]

Sorry mate but that is classic case of putting head in the sand. You need to rewatch last 15 min and you'll be absolutely shocked at how dead on the feet lucas was. There was a situation where he literally couldn't move. With the money these players get per week it's a bit unproffesional to be that unfit. We were supposed to be chasing result but how can you do that when your engine is completely out of steam.
Of course they weren't the only one fallible but the say nothing is wrong with them is I'm sorry but it's a bit laughable.

If that is true, then it can't be a lack of professionalism that is causing Lucas to be unfit since he has been nothing but professional in his entire career with us. Is there anything wrong with the fitness regimen or training programme?

[penga]

My biggest issue with Brendan is he seems not to trust the system above all else. It seems to be more about players than a system. For instance, if Johnson was out I would pick someone who most replicates him in style even if I had to pluck that player from the under 21s, same with Enrique and Coutinho. Try to cause as little disruption as humanly possible. It's all hindsight but I would gone with Henderson at right back and Alberto in Coutinho position. Two players who are no where near as accomplished as who they are replacing but at least the shape of the team would have been similar and we would (you'd think) be more competent going forwards.

To me it's like Brendan has his first team and doesn't trust his fringe players.

Like quite a few people, I'm baffled as to why we didn't seriously pursue Eriksen early in the window but spent a sizeable amount on players of lower quality - a reserves or 2nd league player (Alberto) and Aspas. Also spent getting Ilori who is one for the future but doesn't have a look in right now, should've just taken 1 CB and Toure if funds were lacking.

[Gnurglan]

Sorry mate but that is classic case of putting head in the sand. You need to rewatch last 15 min and you'll be absolutely shocked at how dead on the feet lucas was. There was a situation where he literally couldn't move. With the money these players get per week it's a bit unproffesional to be that unfit. We were supposed to be chasing result but how can you do that when your engine is completely out of steam.
Of course they weren't the only one fallible but the say nothing is wrong with them is I'm sorry but it's a bit laughable.

Haven't watched the game again, but my reaction to that would be that we had an uneven work load. In other words, something forced Lucas and Gerrard to cover more ground than they should have to cover.

[SerbianScouser]

If that is true, then it can't be a lack of professionalism that is causing Lucas to be unfit since he has been nothing but professional in his entire career with us. Is there anything wrong with the fitness regimen or training programme?

That too, with all the modern gadgets our fitness staff has available to them how can we have a player in our team who is strolling around the pitch every last 20 min in every game? Ultimately it's Brendan's responsibility. Not the mention Stevie's refusal to sprint anytime during the game - I'm guessing he' s trying to preserve his energy in order to last 90 min somehow. This is a huge issue for our team as one has to wonder how far can we go having two players in our engine room who fail to meet the fitness standard of PL football.