Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[Yorkykopite]

I definitely take the points made there. I also agree that officials do have a ridiculous amount of scrutiny on them.

The problem for me, though, is I don't feel that the profession is actually that professional in practice. I think we all want to be the best we can be at whatever we do. However, when standards are so slack, and mistakes are defended to the hilt, there's always going to be a problem.

Many of us might recognise how working in a lax, arse-covering environment tends to reduce the quality of work. When people know they don't really have to try, they often slacken off and do the minimum necessary. If people know they can take the piss, they often do so.

I think good practice takes discipline. It also takes a willingness to reflect and improve. The problem with officialdom in football, as I see it, is there doesn't appear to be much in the way of honest reflective practice. Officials just close ranks and infuriated managers end up getting fined for voicing their quite natural frustration.

Regardless of whether or not we believe there is corruption at play in certain instances, I think we can pretty much all agree that standards are low. What compounds things further is those standards are defended by the PGMOL rather than addressed by them. To me, that just gives the green light to further poor standards. It promotes a lack of accountability too.

I think even the best workers can drop their standards when working for a shoddy, lax organisation that actually defends bad practice.

First of all congratulations SoS mate. We disagree over this and yet you're civil and rational and don't go around waving your arms and screaming "I demand an answer!!!". Why do conspiracy nuts always behave like conspiracy nuts? (Even bloody Timbo has turned into a raving loony on this question!)

And what you've posted there makes sense to me. I'd say PGMOL is paranoid as well as inept. The point you make about 'closing ranks' is obviously true. I'd add that VAR has made things worse for them rather than better. It's opened up another (wild) frontier in refereeing controversies and exposed how poor they are. The explanations given for the foul on Gravenberch showed that these idiots are often incapable of judging the simplest things. The opening day of the season saw the Man United goalie punch a Wolves player in the last minute and somehow escape punishment of any kind. The inconsistencies between matches are even worse than those within games and most glaring of all they fluctuate radically as the season advances. The Curtis Jones 'foul' is a red at the start of the season and not even a foul by March. To some extent this is because of the nature of VAR itself. It has forced referees the world over 'to learn on the job' - ie relearn what they once thought they knew. And that means wildly inconsistent decisions being made. People said things would 'settle down' after a few months of VAR's introduction. They haven't done so. There's more turmoil than ever.

So I agree with you that the professional standards of PGMOL are low (even where their professional aspirations remain high). The odd thing for anyone who has followed football like I have (and Timbo) since the 1970s is that despite all these things the referees are still a hundred times better than they used to be. Supporters (and media) used to tolerate truly wretched, genuinely amateur, overweight and unfit referees for years. Many showed open contempt for footballers and football. We, the fans, didn't expect any better.

The most annoying thing about the conspiracy theorists (apart from their endless tantrums) is that they take the spotlight not only off the genuine problem of uber-capitalism in football (as Fitzy said in his opening post). They also take it away from the real refereeing problem of incompetence and the culture of paranoia and protectionism which allows it to flourish. It's much easier to shout "He lives in Wigan!" than tackle questions like that.

The monomania isn't confined to Liverpool. Every club has an Eeyore who thinks they are singled out and victimised. They credit referees with too much intelligence, too much cunning, too much forward planning. In another context they'd be following Q-anon and feeding every single piece of information into their logic-chopping machine to prove that Hilary Clinton, Barack Obama, George Soros and Bill Gates are running the world from their hide-out on Alpha Centauri. And the worse thing is they'll never be satisfied. Every decision that a referee makes is, to them, geared towards hurting Liverpool. Tierney can officiate in 8 Liverpool games (as he has done) and Liverpool can win 8 times (as we have done) and still the monomaniacs will say that he is chosen for the 9th game because he's got it in for Liverpool and PGMOL want to punish us.

[rob1966]

They’re just shit - this conspiracy bollocks implies that they(whoever they may be) have some form of intellectual prowess and are deviously clever - when the front end of this dastardly corruption network- is a gang of billy no mates, who were in the scouts till they were 20+, their parents voted Tory, aspired to drive a Volvo, who are ex prefects now come referees, who have basically been loners all their lives and crave attention and control, as they’ve been shit at most things all their lives.

I’ve had shits with more charisma and life than a premier league referee.

Stop being paranoid fools, you fools.

And that is why they get away with it, because people say "move along, nothing to see here".

I'm not and never have said there is a grand conspiracy, where the PGMOL all met and decided to fuck LFC over, but to think that two referees who grew up in Manchester, in staunch Utd areas and claim to support Altrincham have zero bias about LFC and never make decisions based on bias is naive. Then you've a Wiganner who has a personal issue with Klopp and an ex ref Atkinson who after Gerrard said in his book he couldn't stand the man, gave us fuck all and according to Tomkins Times article in 2020 had gievn us 1 pen in 23 games and denied us (non essential) goals and pens in the title winning season, and is in charge of who gets what games then appointing Tierney to an over average amout of our games,  and to just say "oh there is nothing going on there" is just daft. Then you've got dodgy decisions against us from officials who were flown to the UAE to referee in the league owned and ran by the same people who own Man City, yeah nothing to see here at all.

[Redbonnie]

They’re just shit - this conspiracy bollocks implies that they(whoever they may be) have some form of intellectual prowess and are deviously clever - when the front end of this dastardly corruption network- is a gang of billy no mates, who were in the scouts till they were 20+, their parents voted Tory, aspired to drive a Volvo, who are ex prefects now come referees, who have basically been loners all their lives and crave attention and control, as they’ve been shit at most things all their lives.

I’ve had shits with more charisma and life than a premier league referee.

Stop being paranoid fools, you fools.

I love the way they stop being incompetent and power mad when City would benefit. All those awful decisions against City….proves we are paranoid really.

[Pistolero]

I love the way they stop being incompetent and power mad when City would benefit. All those awful decisions against City….proves we are paranoid really.

a very good point.....and one that the wools, wums and forelock tuggers conveniently overlook....

[Yorkykopite]

I love the way they stop being incompetent and power mad when City would benefit. All those awful decisions against City….proves we are paranoid really.

Although you have to admire the way Simon Hooper donned a Spurs shirt in the last minute of that game at the Etihad and tackled Haaland when he was bearing down on goal to score the winner. I saw that game on Sky and exploded with joy when he put in the tackle. So unexpected! Two points dropped.

[spider-neil]

Although you have to admire the way Simon Hooper donned a Spurs shirt in the last minute of that game at the Etihad and tackled Haaland when he was bearing down on goal to score the winner. I saw that game on Sky and exploded with joy when he put in the tackle. So unexpected! Two points dropped.

That was fucking glorious. I genuinely think that's the first time I ever saw City get royally fucked over.

[rob1966]

I love the way they stop being incompetent and power mad when City would benefit. All those awful decisions against City….proves we are paranoid really.

Imagine the decision if this was Virg and not Rodri in a decisive game in the title run in



And if it was Mac on Doku and not the other way around

[JRed]

Yorky asked why opposition fans aren't saying there's an agenda against Liverpool, and I can't see in that video where Goldbridge says there is?

He's saying what Yorky and the rest of us have been saying, that it was a penalty, VAR bottled overruling it, and Webb talked a bunch of bollocks afterwards to try and justify it.

Isn’t failing to correct clear and obvious errors and then lying about it to try and cover it up, technically corruption? Particularly when it affects one club more than others and has actually cost them titles?

[CHOPPER]

Paranoid!!! Are you for fucking real Chopper?

Three decisions possibly depriving us of as many as 5 points and very possibly come May the league title and all three so clearly stemming from some inclination of the officials both on and off the pitch in each instance to depart entirely from what should be their core essence which is to be impartial and despite the overwhelming and clear visual evidence to completely ignore that and to make a decision not to favour Liverpool.

Incidently, I'm new to the thread but the only posters I've seen spouting the term conspiracy are those who are seemingly convinced there's nowt wrong in an attempt to dismiss those who do.

 Personally speaking all I know for sure is that in those three so crucial match affecting instances -two at Anfield and one at Spurs - those bustards chose for whatever reason not to favour us with the on field and VAR decisions which so clearly should have been in our favour and that those c*nts could yet cost us another title.

Spurs one, once the audio was released proved how fucking shit they are, no conspiracy, just plain old being fucking shite at what they were doing.

The other two - arsenal pen? Yes, should have been a pen, though how many fans say that up and down the country ever single day, in  every single league...... though I will say this, that 5 against 1 or 2 and we didn't score, what makes you think we have scored the pen! we couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo that night.

Cant recollect the other one?

[Redley]

And that is why they get away with it, because people say "move along, nothing to see here".

I'm not and never have said there is a grand conspiracy, where the PGMOL all met and decided to fuck LFC over, but to think that two referees who grew up in Manchester, in staunch Utd areas and claim to support Altrincham have zero bias about LFC and never make decisions based on bias is naive. Then you've a Wiganner who has a personal issue with Klopp and an ex ref Atkinson who after Gerrard said in his book he couldn't stand the man, gave us fuck all and according to Tomkins Times article in 2020 had gievn us 1 pen in 23 games and denied us (non essential) goals and pens in the title winning season, and is in charge of who gets what games then appointing Tierney to an over average amout of our games,  and to just say "oh there is nothing going on there" is just daft. Then you've got dodgy decisions against us from officials who were flown to the UAE to referee in the league owned and ran by the same people who own Man City, yeah nothing to see here at all.

This is the point that keeps getting missed on here, with the added bonus of it then being covered up by ex-Saudi head of refs and now head of PGMOL. Literally covered up. That’s not normal, that’s not ‘oh it happens to every team’. That’s not an honest mistake because it’s literally the opposite of being honest. It’s horribly sinister.

[Eeyore]

Sure, but there's no opposition fans saying there's an agenda against Liverpool?

Why would there be when there has been decades of Liverpool get too many penalties at the Kop end. Followed by the LiVARpool nonsense and to top it off you get a drop ball almost 2 minutes before a goal given the same equivalence as the Doku, Odegaard or Diaz incidents.

Why would you get people saying there is an agenda against Liverpool when they have been conditioned to believe the exact opposite. It would be like asking Daily Mail readers if there is an agenda against immigrants.

Here is a member of a member of the Premier League key incidents panel talking about the Diaz incident.

Jon Walters : ‘I’ve got a timeline full of Liverpool fans moaning ‘The game needs to be replayed’ ‘Sign this petition’ … just bore off.

‘Someone made a big error and said sorry. It’s a mistake so move on.

‘There’s been plenty of mistakes this season with red cards, penalty decisions and goals given..nobody has asked for a replay.8

‘The game isn’t getting replayed. END of story.

‘The world is not against you. You should try being an Everton fan this season and last season and the season before…it’s not very good’.

[CHOPPER]

And that is why they get away with it, because people say "move along, nothing to see here".

I'm not and never have said there is a grand conspiracy, where the PGMOL all met and decided to fuck LFC over, but to think that two referees who grew up in Manchester, in staunch Utd areas and claim to support Altrincham have zero bias about LFC and never make decisions based on bias is naive. Then you've a Wiganner who has a personal issue with Klopp and an ex ref Atkinson who after Gerrard said in his book he couldn't stand the man, gave us fuck all and according to Tomkins Times article in 2020 had gievn us 1 pen in 23 games and denied us (non essential) goals and pens in the title winning season, and is in charge of who gets what games then appointing Tierney to an over average amout of our games,  and to just say "oh there is nothing going on there" is just daft. Then you've got dodgy decisions against us from officials who were flown to the UAE to referee in the league owned and ran by the same people who own Man City, yeah nothing to see here at all.

You can dissect that in isolation, but to think that these refs stop pause, or run out thinking - am fucking Liverpool over today, is lunacy of the highest order.

Yes, they may be mancs, yes they may have a beef with player/teams and managers, and across an entire league, but to run out and think they're out to get us - is putting us back to the days of  de Mendebi, for Inter or the general south American refereeing through the 70's 80s and large periods of Italian and Spanish football. This shower of incompetence aint that.

[Redbonnie]

Spurs one, once the audio was released proved how fucking shit they are, no conspiracy, just plain old being fucking shite at what they were doing.

The other two - arsenal pen? Yes, should have been a pen, though how many fans say that up and down the country ever single day, in  every single league...... though I will say this, that 5 against 1 or 2 and we didn't score, what makes you think we have scored the pen! we couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo that night.

Cant recollect the other one?

So you heard the audio of the Diaz VAR and thought it was incompetence and not deliberate deafness until the referee blew followed by stonewalling any attempt whatsoever to rectify the error ? I suppose given the fact that 35pc of the population has lost money to scams I shouldn’t be too surprised.

[rob1966]

You can dissect that in isolation, but to think that these refs stop pause, or run out thinking - am fucking Liverpool over today, is lunacy of the highest order.

Yes, they may be mancs, yes they may have a beef with player/teams and managers, and across an entire league, but to run out and think they're out to get us - is putting us back to the days of  de Mendebi, for Inter or the general south American refereeing through the 70's 80s and large periods of Italian and Spanish football. This shower of incompetence aint that.

Could you ref a Utd game and be 100% fair, cos I know I couldn't. I wouldn't do anything illegal, but I'd not play advantages, wave away free kicks when Fernandes hit the deck, I'd give a stonewall pen, but anything I thought I could not give, I wouldn't.

Parents cannot referee kids games without bias, imagine being able to fuck over a team you grew up hating?

[Redley]

Why would there be when there has been decades of Liverpool get too many penalties at the Kop end. Followed by the LiVARpool nonsense and to top it off you get a drop ball almost 2 minutes before a goal given the same equivalence as the Doku, Odegaard or Diaz incidents.

Why would you get people saying there is an agenda against Liverpool when they have been conditioned to believe the exact opposite. It would be like asking Daily Mail readers if there is an agenda against immigrants.

Here is a member of a member of the Premier League key incidents panel talking about the Diaz incident.

Jon Walters : ‘I’ve got a timeline full of Liverpool fans moaning ‘The game needs to be replayed’ ‘Sign this petition’ … just bore off.

‘Someone made a big error and said sorry. It’s a mistake so move on.

‘There’s been plenty of mistakes this season with red cards, penalty decisions and goals given..nobody has asked for a replay.8

‘The game isn’t getting replayed. END of story.

‘The world is not against you. You should try being an Everton fan this season and last season and the season before…it’s not very good’.

Is that right?! Fucking hell

[Eeyore]

Spurs one, once the audio was released proved how fucking shit they are, no conspiracy, just plain old being fucking shite at what they were doing.

The other two - arsenal pen? Yes, should have been a pen, though how many fans say that up and down the country ever single day, in  every single league...... though I will say this, that 5 against 1 or 2 and we didn't score, what makes you think we have scored the pen! we couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo that night.

Cant recollect the other one?

The Spurs one Darren England the VAR is given the frame of the kick point of the pass to Diaz. He ignores it and immediately asks for the next one knowing that the next frame has a much higher liklihood of showing Diaz to be offside.

England has two personalities in that incident. He is very assertive and quick and in control when he is pushing through the incorrect decision. Then when his error is pointed out he suddenly becomes slow and keeps asking for people to repeat what they have said. Then as soon as he stalled enough and the ball is back in play assertive England returns. He then constantly talks over people saying 6 times. 'can't do anything'.

The thing is he could do something. We have seen games stopped since then. The very least thing he should do is to tell the bloody referee.

[Eeyore]

Is that right?! Fucking hell

It is a strange one because if there was something wrong with the Diaz goal being disallowed then Yorky fully expects fans of other clubs to come rushing to our defence and highlight there may be an agenda against us. Them not doing so is then used as proof that there isn't bias against Liverpool.

[JRed]

It is a strange one because if there was something wrong with the Diaz goal being disallowed then Yorky fully expects fans of other clubs to come rushing to our defence and highlight there may be an agenda against us. Them not doing so is then used as proof that there isn't bias against Liverpool.

Fans of other clubs will be over the fucking moon that there is an agenda against Liverpool. That’s part of why the officials get away with it time and time again. If the officials fucked Abu Dhabi over to hand us the title ( yeah I know it would never happen) then we would be made up too. Doesn’t make it right.

[Yorkykopite]

It is a strange one because if there was something wrong with the Diaz goal being disallowed then Yorky fully expects fans of other clubs to come rushing to our defence and highlight there may be an agenda against us. Them not doing so is then used as proof that there isn't bias against Liverpool.

I have loads of football-supporting mates from other clubs, including from Tottenham. Not a single one defended the Diaz fiasco. Why would they? It was the single worst incident in VAR's career so far. Unique I'd say. So said everyone else I know.

Do I expect them to leap from this admission to a general one that there is an 'agenda' against Liverpool in PGMOL? (Agenda meaning 'conspiracy' of course for those who lack the courage to say the word out loud). No. That would be stupid.

As for that particular incident, anyone who can listen to Darren England's cat-in-the-headlights performance when he discovers the cock-up and think "there's a cool and corrupt dude calmly steering his corruption ship into the harbour" is a more imaginative person than me.

Hey, I have a question about this (and YOU MUST ANSWER IT NOW ANDY!!!!). If the audio tape does show corruption-in-action, why did PGMOL release it?

Wouldn't it be like NASA releasing audio of Neil Armstrong saying "This film studio is too bloody cold. We should have gone to the Moon?"   

[Redley]

He was very panicked aside from being very clear and concise that the mistake couldn’t be corrected

[Eeyore]

I have loads of football-supporting mates from other clubs, including from Tottenham. Not a single one defended the Diaz fiasco. Why would they? It was the single worst incident in VAR's career so far. Unique I'd say. So said everyone else I know.

Do I expect them to leap from this admission to a general one that there is an 'agenda' against Liverpool in PGMOL? (Agenda meaning 'conspiracy' of course for those who lack the courage to say the word out loud). No. That would be stupid.

As for that particular incident, anyone who can listen to Darren England's cat-in-the-headlights performance when he discovers the cock-up and think "there's a cool and corrupt dude calmly steering his corruption ship into the harbour" is a more imaginative person than me.

Hey, I have a question about this (and YOU MUST ANSWER IT NOW ANDY!!!!). If the audio tape does show corruption-in-action, why did PGMOL release it?

Wouldn't it be like NASA releasing audio of Neil Armstrong saying "This film studio is too bloody cold. We should have gone to the Moon?"   

The PGMOL released it because Liverpool demanded that they release it. They had already spent the preceding few days though pushing the narrative that it was just human error nothing to see here gov. Amazing that they had already decided that BEFORE they had investigated it fully.

I think anyone who has seen the transcript can see that the process was ridiculously unprofessional. Good process.

[Yorkykopite]

The PGMOL released it because Liverpool demanded that they release it. They had already spent the preceding few days though pushing the narrative that it was just human error nothing to see here gov. Amazing that they had already decided that BEFORE they had investigated it fully.

It's that simple uh? We asked a corrupt organisation to give us evidence of their corruption....and they did! No need for the big investigation after all.

PGMOL decided it was "a significant human error" because it so clearly was. You don't need an investigation to see that. Even Gary Neville saw that.

[JRed]

He was very panicked aside from being very clear and concise that the mistake couldn’t be corrected

This is it, and why I think Darren England knew exactly what he was doing. There was no panic in his voice whatsoever, at any point. There was no ‘Shit, what can we do?’. After all his so called ‘confusion’ he was suddenly very sure of himself. I actually can’t believe people fell for it.

[Eeyore]

He was very panicked aside from being very clear and concise that the mistake couldn’t be corrected

Exactly. His hearing loss when his error was pointed out was remarkable. 'what', 'pardon', 'oli'. Luckily he was jolted out of his coma when play was restarted.

Luckily he was able to shout down the people who wanted to stop play. Which was unfortunate. Spurs were in possession so if Hooper had stopped play and then gave us the ball from the restart then things would have evened themselves out.

Unfortunately England had another medical episode during the game. A momentary stroke meant he accidently stopped the video showing a still of Jones making contact with Bissouma. It was probably pointed out by the AVAR and the video operator that was against protocols. My guess would be that the stroke passed and England was able to shout 'can't do anything' six times until Jones was sent off.

Good process.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

So... Robbie thinks it's incompetence rather than bias/corruption/conspiracy? Was that your point? I've missed it otherwise.

The point was to offer Robbie Fowlers view on the situation.

I completely agree that Webb should resign and the officials at PGMOL should all be sacked and better replacements found.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Goldbridge is a clown who supports Forest, plays a Partridgesque character for clicks and is loathed by most United fans. I thought this was common knowledge by now. If you're looking for a common sense view, you'll have to keep going.
Well, obviously. No one's saying the refs aren't incompetent or always ready and willing to cover each other's backs.

You chose not to comment on the most important line of his post;

"You Tube video reveals how he feels about the situation as do the bulk - rabid Liverpool haters apart - of the close to 2,000 fans from a host of different clubs who chose to comment on his video."

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Cheers.

Are you saying that you aren't just a little impressed with Eeyore's instructive little map? Imagine if there was a cluster of 10 Premier League referees in the London area instead of Lancashire and Merseyside. What would you think? I know what Andy from Allerton would think. We all do. He hates Londoners as it is. Really hates them. But ten refs from London? He'd self combust.

I don't hate Londoners. I have several friends that are from there. I actually like the place now to visit - though it was a dangerous shithole when I worked there in the 80s.

I hate London for political reasons - of which there are many. That is also a Southern issue.

Hating actual Londoners? Nah. I take everyone as they come - even Mancs - have had good holidays and enjoyed Mancs company there. When I meet them in 'real life' there is no problem.

The odd pissed rant on here doesn't change that.


Your defence of Yorkshire folk is interesting though. Not seen you this passionate on the Liverpool board before that I can recall?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It doesn't, but in its own right, it's also a viable alternative explanation for their inconsistency and poor decision making. And applying Occam's Razor, it seems the more like scenario to me.

I'll ask again.

The 'mistakes' for not giving the penalty against City cannot be classed as 'mistakes' because the 'independant panel' determined that there was no mistake. The head of PGMOL came out and gaslit everyone to say what everyone had seen didn't happen.

I'd like someone - anyone to square that circle.

Yorkie still hasn't bothered answering that. He seemed to be saying there was a mistake made, but it can't have been a mistake given the actions of the independant board and the head of PGMOL after the event.

It's either a mistake or it is not a mistake. It's a binary answer. You can't have both.

[Yorkykopite]

This is it, and why I think Darren England knew exactly what he was doing. There was no panic in his voice whatsoever, at any point. There was no ‘Shit, what can we do?’. After all his so called ‘confusion’ he was suddenly very sure of himself. I actually can’t believe people fell for it.

Last go for me on this.

It's a useful post because it distills things down nicely. The case of the conspiracy theorists is that the audio reveals very precisely a conspiracy in action. You say it nicely. When the mistake was revealed by the technician Darren England was calm, un-panicked, and very sure of himself. He deliberately disallowed the goal and then he calmly acted through the rest of his plan. Perhaps he even rehearsed how it might go? That's what a corrupt officer with forward-planning would have done.

The 'cock-up school' looks at the same evidence and says something very different. Call it the 'cat in the headlights theory'. This is where panic induces immobility, passivity, fatalism, monosyllabic evasion, all systems shutting down. I think that's what we're hearing on the audio. A man who simply wanted the problem to 'go away' and irrationally believed it might do if he ignored it. It's most certainly not a man in charge!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

He is a Utd fan, he's from Nottingham and went to some games as a kid and so that's been throw at him, this is him at 12

Clever photoshop mate. That's a Forest shirt, the lad behind him is Brian Clough and it was pictured at Nottingham Train station in 2008. In the original photo, he's much older, is holding a kebab and is necking a bottle of Stella.

[JRed]

Last go for me on this.

It's a useful post because it distills things down nicely. The case of the conspiracy theorists is that the audio reveals very precisely a conspiracy in action. You say it nicely. When the mistake was revealed by the technician Darren England was calm, un-panicked, and very sure of himself. He deliberately disallowed the goal and then he calmly acted through the rest of his plan. Perhaps he even rehearsed how it might go? That's what a corrupt officer with forward-planning would have done.

The 'cock-up school' looks at the same evidence and says something very different. Call it the 'cat in the headlights theory'. This is where panic induces immobility, passivity, fatalism, monosyllabic evasion, all systems shutting down. I think that's what we're hearing on the audio. A man who simply wanted the problem to 'go away' and irrationally believed it might do if he ignored it. It's most certainly not a man in charge!

If that was the case then should never have been allowed near a football match again, but we can say that for many of the officials. There is no way so many people in the same small group of officials can be so bad at their jobs. It is simply not possible.

[Yorkykopite]

Your defence of Yorkshire folk is interesting though. Not seen you this passionate on the Liverpool board before that I can recall?

I feel pretty calm actually - and most of my posts have been pretty calm too. Unlike the hysteria from the conspiracy group - yourself especially with serial tantrums every time someone fails to answer one of your million questions. Also I don't think I've mentioned "Yorkshire folk", let alone defended them (I thought it was "Manchester folk" who were the real problem?). 

[Yorkykopite]

If that was the case then should never have been allowed near a football match again.

I actually agree with that.

[JRed]

I actually agree with that.

Finally, some common ground 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

First of all congratulations SoS mate. We disagree over this and yet you're civil and rational and don't go around waving your arms and screaming "I demand an answer!!!". Why do conspiracy nuts always behave like conspiracy nuts? (Even bloody Timbo has turned into a raving loony on this question!)

And what you've posted there makes sense to me. I'd say PGMOL is paranoid as well as inept. The point you make about 'closing ranks' is obviously true. I'd add that VAR has made things worse for them rather than better. It's opened up another (wild) frontier in refereeing controversies and exposed how poor they are. The explanations given for the foul on Gravenberch showed that these idiots are often incapable of judging the simplest things. The opening day of the season saw the Man United goalie punch a Wolves player in the last minute and somehow escape punishment of any kind. The inconsistencies between matches are even worse than those within games and most glaring of all they fluctuate radically as the season advances. The Curtis Jones 'foul' is a red at the start of the season and not even a foul by March. To some extent this is because of the nature of VAR itself. It has forced referees the world over 'to learn on the job' - ie relearn what they once thought they knew. And that means wildly inconsistent decisions being made. People said things would 'settle down' after a few months of VAR's introduction. They haven't done so. There's more turmoil than ever.

So I agree with you that the professional standards of PGMOL are low (even where their professional aspirations remain high). The odd thing for anyone who has followed football like I have (and Timbo) since the 1970s is that despite all these things the referees are still a hundred times better than they used to be. Supporters (and media) used to tolerate truly wretched, genuinely amateur, overweight and unfit referees for years. Many showed open contempt for footballers and football. We, the fans, didn't expect any better.

The most annoying thing about the conspiracy theorists (apart from their endless tantrums) is that they take the spotlight not only off the genuine problem of uber-capitalism in football (as Fitzy said in his opening post). They also take it away from the real refereeing problem of incompetence and the culture of paranoia and protectionism which allows it to flourish. It's much easier to shout "He lives in Wigan!" than tackle questions like that.

The monomania isn't confined to Liverpool. Every club has an Eeyore who thinks they are singled out and victimised. They credit referees with too much intelligence, too much cunning, too much forward planning. In another context they'd be following Q-anon and feeding every single piece of information into their logic-chopping machine to prove that Hilary Clinton, Barack Obama, George Soros and Bill Gates are running the world from their hide-out on Alpha Centauri. And the worse thing is they'll never be satisfied. Every decision that a referee makes is, to them, geared towards hurting Liverpool. Tierney can officiate in 8 Liverpool games (as he has done) and Liverpool can win 8 times (as we have done) and still the monomaniacs will say that he is chosen for the 9th game because he's got it in for Liverpool and PGMOL want to punish us.

The non-penalty against City. You, yourself said it was an error. There is little to no point in debating things we don't know - that's all subjective, so let's debate something objective - that we know.

Some of the things we do know is;




1. The referee didn't think it was a penalty or a foul 'not for me' - a mistake
2. VAR lied about both players coming in high - a mistake
3. VAR lied about the defender touching the abll first - a mistake
4. VAR didn't say it was a penalty - a mistake
5. VAR told the AVAR to fuck off when questioned - a mistake
6. The review took seconds rather than looking at it properly - a mistake?
7. The referee didn't give the penalty - a mistake
8. Oliver is paid indirectly by the owners of Manchester City and does gigs over there
9. An 'independant panel' (Made up of some people that are very anti-Liverpol - one of which actively trolled Liverpool fans over the decsision) - decided that no mistakes were made
10. The head of PGMOL came out and told everyone that what they saw didn't happen and no mistakes were made.
11. Just after the game and after the head of PGMOL spoke, you had two City players wheeled out to talk at length why the correct decision was made.


So. Was it the corect decision or was it a mistake? If we'd scored the penalty, we'd be top of the league. You are not allowed to say it was an error, because the Board and Webb said it wasn't.

Square that circle.

I'm happy to be pulled up on those things you think aren't true from the above.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Fans of other clubs will be over the fucking moon that there is an agenda against Liverpool. That’s part of why the officials get away with it time and time again. If the officials fucked Abu Dhabi over to hand us the title ( yeah I know it would never happen) then we would be made up too. Doesn’t make it right.

A couple of my Bluenose mates think we're getting fucked over and they think it's fucking hilarious.

I have loads of football-supporting mates from other clubs, including from Tottenham. Not a single one defended the Diaz fiasco. Why would they? It was the single worst incident in VAR's career so far. Unique I'd say. So said everyone else I know.

Do I expect them to leap from this admission to a general one that there is an 'agenda' against Liverpool in PGMOL? (Agenda meaning 'conspiracy' of course for those who lack the courage to say the word out loud). No. That would be stupid.

As for that particular incident, anyone who can listen to Darren England's cat-in-the-headlights performance when he discovers the cock-up and think "there's a cool and corrupt dude calmly steering his corruption ship into the harbour" is a more imaginative person than me.

Hey, I have a question about this (and YOU MUST ANSWER IT NOW ANDY!!!!). If the audio tape does show corruption-in-action, why did PGMOL release it?

Wouldn't it be like NASA releasing audio of Neil Armstrong saying "This film studio is too bloody cold. We should have gone to the Moon?"   

The audio in of itself shows that they have massively fucked up as you can clearly see that what VAR said didn't match anything going on, on the pitch.

However, the problem here is that IF the 'independent' panel had admitted to the error - that would have been fine. If the head of PGMOL came out and said 'we fucked up' then that would have been fine.

Just another couple of points lost to incompentant wankers. Move along now.


But. That did not happen. Everyone saw the videos and pictures. Everyone heard the audio. Everyone knows it should have been a clear and obvious penalty and probably a yellow for dangerous play. But the 'independent' board said the decision was correct. The head of PGMOL said the decision was correct.

You YOURSELF said it was an error. Was it an error or not? The board didn't have a 'heat of the moment, rushed review'. The head of PGMOL waited a week.

If it was an error, why not say it was an error?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It's that simple uh? We asked a corrupt organisation to give us evidence of their corruption....and they did! No need for the big investigation after all.

PGMOL decided it was "a significant human error" because it so clearly was. You don't need an investigation to see that. Even Gary Neville saw that.

"PGMOL decided it was "a significant human error"" - OK re-read your post - that was for the Spurs game.



I'd say this error was as bad from the City game at Anfield and this is what Webb said;



This is from the BBC on what Webb said:

_______________________________________________________

Referees' chief Howard Webb has said the video assistant referee was right not to interfere as Liverpool were not given a late penalty in their recent 1-1 draw with Manchester City.

City winger Jeremy Doku caught Alexis Mac Allister with a high boot in the area in the final seconds of the match.

But on-field referee Michael Oliver did not award the Reds a spot-kick, and VAR Stuart Attwell agreed.

"It's split a lot of opinion, hasn't it?" said Webb.

"It's one of those, for sure - if the referee gives it on the field, it would have been a 'check complete' by the VAR.

"Equally, having not given it, it's also 'check complete'. You hear Michael Oliver say the ball's in between two players going together.

"The ball is too low to head. Doku lifts his foot to play the ball, and he does make contact on the ball.

"And yes, we know there's some contact on Mac Allister as well. Mac Allister comes into him. Mac Allister is not really playing the ball either. So, I understand why it's split opinion."

Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp and Mac Allister both felt the challenge should have resulted in a penalty for their side.

"The VAR stays out of it. I think that is what we would we would expect," added Webb on Match Officials Mic'd Up, a Premier League Productions programme which analyses VAR decisions from previous games.

[Yorkykopite]

This is the last one, 'cause I've got to go.

It was a mistake/error. I am "allowed" to say that because you don't get to dictate the answers as well as the questions (that's how conversation works Andy). It ought to have been a pen. If we'd scored from it we'd be top of the league.

Up the Reds.

[Eeyore]

I actually agree with that.

Then you must agree that allowing him to continue after a slapped wrist is the behavior of a corrupt organisation. I mean if he is so incompetent that he accidentally disallows a good goal AND accidentally provides the referee with a still image of Jones's foot-catching Bissouma after he has played the ball.

Then surely he shouldn't be allowed to officiate games.?

Likewise, Lee Mason was so bad as a referee that they set up a permanent role for him as a VAR basically because he couldn't run. He then messed that up by 'forgetting' to draw the offside lines. So he left by mutual consent presumably with a payoff. Then when it quietened down they brought him back as coach.

Given those two situations and levels of incompetence that would see anyone else facing disciplinary measures up to and including losing their job. Do you agree that the PGMOL engages in corrupt practices.
   

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I feel pretty calm actually - and most of my posts have been pretty calm too. Unlike the hysteria from the conspiracy group - yourself especially with serial tantrums every time someone fails to answer one of your million questions. Also I don't think I've mentioned "Yorkshire folk", let alone defended them (I thought it was "Manchester folk" who were the real problem?). 

I have asked you the same question loads of times. You probably feel like it's millions of questions because you still haven't answered it.

Was it a mistake? You can't say it was because the 'independant' board and the head of PGMOL said it was the correct decision.


Was it a mistake? Was it the correct decision?  You said above (again) that it was an error. Which I agree with. I think it was clearly an error. But the board and PGMOl said it wasn't.  Do you not even understand what I'm asking you? How can it be an error and not an error at the same time? You've seen the VAR transcript. The errors are clear. You've seen the videos. The errors are clear. You've seen the photos. The errors are clear to everyone. And yet YOU are wrong and I am wrong and WE ARE ALL WRONG - there were no errors.


They have made a rod for their own back here, because everyone can see what the decision should have been (Except Tubby who thinks chesting the ball is 'coming in high')