Author Topic: Six Nations 2010 thread  (Read 43389 times)

Offline TSC

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #880 on: February 27, 2010, 11:14:46 pm »
So you think that the constant maul fest that I witnessed today was a display of skill? I am ignorant to RU compared to RL and will happily admit that. Played it at school 20 years ago and didn't like it then. It seems so structured and scripted to me. It is a genuine question as to why you people in here prefer that code?

As a 'non rugby fan' I must confess I enjoy the 6 nations & Lions tours etc.  But have never enjoyed RL.  Watched it a few times on a Sunday to see if i could get into it and never could.  You'll have to excuse my lack of technical knowledge re rules and such but it appeared that after any sort of tackle the game would stop and then start again, with comment on the screen saying '3rd tackle' or something.  Lost patience in the end.  RU just continues.  More flow to it.

Offline ItchySpoons

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #881 on: February 27, 2010, 11:17:56 pm »
I asked the question with the crowds in mind. I admit RU crowds for international are vastly superior. What I don't understand is why? The skill and speed factor in RL is far greater than RU, where strength and size rules the day it seems. I am curious as to why people seem to prefer to watch RU with this being the case.

I can only offer my opinion here, can't say with any certainty obviously but in my opinion the purity of the game has a part to play. There's an inherent honesty to rugby union in that you can't hide or drift in and out in the sense players can in other sports. Courage, desire and the ability to stand up and be counted when it matters are valuable traits in RU. Most true fans don't watch a sport to be entertained, we don't avoid a Liverpool match if we're not playing total football and we generally don't care at all how we play as long as we win. For example the Ireland game today. As an Irishman I watched that same game and was entertained from start to finish. The skill on show may have been sparse but the sheer desire and physicality from both teams made it an enthralling watch.

There's a lot to be said for games like that. When the free-flowing rugby isn't out at least there's still that dogged battling going on. 30 players giving everything they have to win and putting their bodies on the line. It's fascinating at it's worst and totally absorbing at it's best. And to suggest that there is no skill involved is ridiculous; picking the right lines, timing offloads, recovering a kick and chase. It may not always be packed with skill but the honesty, courage and battling required in every game makes it a very unique sport.
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Offline Fairytale of 2005

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #882 on: February 27, 2010, 11:21:17 pm »
Structured and Scripted?

RL players have the ball skills, but choose to go forward 3 metres towards 3 tacklers, choose not to off-load and go straight to ground (where they wriggle like eels for 30 secs for some unfathomable reason), and then wait for the 6th tackle where someone kicks the ball and they hope to catch a high ball or hope for a mistake.
You can't get more structured than that.

Sorry, but most of that is completely incorrect. However I am interested to see your opinion. I guess this illustrates the lack of understanding between fans of either code. I personally think the reason behind the popularity is a society thing. RU gets far more publicity from the Southern based press, than the more Northern based game.


Offline Fairytale of 2005

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #883 on: February 27, 2010, 11:23:09 pm »
I can only offer my opinion here, can't say with any certainty obviously but in my opinion the purity of the game has a part to play. There's an inherent honesty to rugby union in that you can't hide or drift in and out in the sense players can in other sports. Courage, desire and the ability to stand up and be counted when it matters are valuable traits in RU. Most true fans don't watch a sport to be entertained, we don't avoid a Liverpool match if we're not playing total football and we generally don't care at all how we play as long as we win. For example the Ireland game today. As an Irishman I watched that same game and was entertained from start to finish. The skill on show may have been sparse but the sheer desire and physicality from both teams made it an enthralling watch.

There's a lot to be said for games like that. When the free-flowing rugby isn't out at least there's still that dogged battling going on. 30 players giving everything they have to win and putting their bodies on the line. It's fascinating at it's worst and totally absorbing at it's best. And to suggest that there is no skill involved is ridiculous; picking the right lines, timing offloads, recovering a kick and chase. It may not always be packed with skill but the honesty, courage and battling required in every game makes it a very unique sport.

Interesting post.

Offline TSC

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #884 on: February 27, 2010, 11:26:04 pm »
Sorry, but most of that is completely incorrect. However I am interested to see your opinion. I guess this illustrates the lack of understanding between fans of either code. I personally think the reason behind the popularity is a society thing. RU gets far more publicity from the Southern based press, than the more Northern based game.



I don't pretend to know anything re the politics at which you refer to, but the 6 nations has always been there since the year dot, and so captured the interest growing up.  I'm from Ireland originally and while at the time I wasn't that interested (always footie for me) as a kid the 6 nations was always a big competition at this time of the year.  RL wasn't even on the box at the time (80's).  Or if it was it wasn't well watched anyway.

Edit: 5 nations then!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 11:27:51 pm by TSC »

Offline Fairytale of 2005

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #885 on: February 27, 2010, 11:27:40 pm »
As a 'non rugby fan' I must confess I enjoy the 6 nations & Lions tours etc.  But have never enjoyed RL.  Watched it a few times on a Sunday to see if i could get into it and never could.  You'll have to excuse my lack of technical knowledge re rules and such but it appeared that after any sort of tackle the game would stop and then start again, with comment on the screen saying '3rd tackle' or something.  Lost patience in the end.  RU just continues.  More flow to it.


Again I am interested to read your opinion. However I find your observations bizarre. I'm not sure which games of RL you watched, but I've hardly ever seen a stop start game.

Offline Fairytale of 2005

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #886 on: February 27, 2010, 11:29:00 pm »
I don't pretend to know anything re the politics at which you refer to, but the 6 nations has always been there since the year dot, and so captured the interest growing up.  I'm from Ireland originally and while at the time I wasn't that interested (always footie for me) as a kid the 6 nations was always a big competition at this time of the year.  RL wasn't even on the box at the time (80's).  Or if it was it wasn't well watched anyway.

Edit: 5 nations then!

Yeah this is kind of what I meant. RU and the 6 nations etc gets far more coverage on a national basis.

Thanks for the replies. I shall let you all get back on topic now. :wave
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 11:31:46 pm by Kage »

Offline TSC

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #887 on: February 27, 2010, 11:32:22 pm »

Again I am interested to read your opinion. However I find your observations bizarre. I'm not sure which games of RL you watched, but I've hardly ever seen a stop start game.

At the risk of appearing totally ignorant to the rules the few games I've watched the play stops for every tackle.  There is no 'rucks' as such.  The tackled player is left to get up and then play continues.  It reminds me a bit of American football (and no I don't understand that either - tried watching it as it appeared to be popular some yrs ago and it bored me shitless) insofar the objective seems to be to advance further up the pitch via a series of tackles.

Offline Fairytale of 2005

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #888 on: February 27, 2010, 11:34:07 pm »
At the risk of appearing totally ignorant to the rules

No problem, I am mostly ignorant the other way. Anyway thanks for the insight.

Offline weebroalan

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #889 on: February 27, 2010, 11:47:07 pm »
The scrum is a big difference between league and union. In league it is so predictable. In union it is a proper contest where turnovers happen.

There are more turnovers in the ruck in union. League usually go through the same 5 or 6 tackles and then it turns over automatically.

Also I think line outs don't happen properly in league but again in union they are properly contested.

So I guess it's the predictability of league that I find boring.

Offline redmen9

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #890 on: February 28, 2010, 12:09:31 am »
Most over rated side in world rugby = Ireland.  Thought that the battering they got at the hands of the French was a one off, the narrow victory today against a very average English side tells me all I need to know.  A team in decline?  thoughts please?

Offline ItchySpoons

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #891 on: February 28, 2010, 12:18:21 am »
Most over rated side in world rugby = Ireland.  Thought that the battering they got at the hands of the French was a one off, the narrow victory today against a very average English side tells me all I need to know.  A team in decline?  thoughts please?

Aye fluked that Grand Slam last year. Jammy bastards! Ireland v England in rubgy isn't just an average fixture. We've never beaten them by more than a try at Twickenham I think I read today. Regardless of form or anything else, those games are always blood and thunder stuff and always very, very close! We were in the game against France until the stupid kick from Flannery that ended up in a try for them and the sin-binning. Not saying we're not overrated but to say we're in decline based on those two games doesn't wash.
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Offline Regi

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #892 on: February 28, 2010, 07:22:13 am »
Poor match for the most part but why would anyone expect different given the circumstances?
Both teams under pressure to keep it tight, poor conditions, and the fact that England don't appear to have a strategy for any type of running game...they wanted to match Ireland's physicality, and so this type of game was all but a certainty.
To anyone saying Ireland were shown up to be completely average is foolish...England annhilated France at Twickenham last season and just beat Wales there...major scalps...regardless of the bullshit that gets said, a win at Twickenham still takes a lot of doing.
Ireland adapted their game for the occasion and won ugly...no problem with that
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #893 on: February 28, 2010, 07:45:23 pm »
Standings after Round 3.

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Offline Mackeroo

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #894 on: February 28, 2010, 09:30:12 pm »
Poor match for the most part but why would anyone expect different given the circumstances?
Both teams under pressure to keep it tight, poor conditions, and the fact that England don't appear to have a strategy for any type of running game...they wanted to match Ireland's physicality, and so this type of game was all but a certainty.
To anyone saying Ireland were shown up to be completely average is foolish...England annhilated France at Twickenham last season and just beat Wales there...major scalps...regardless of the bullshit that gets said, a win at Twickenham still takes a lot of doing.
Ireland adapted their game for the occasion and won ugly...no problem with that

Agree completely.

It was never going to be a wide-open contest, and the conditions didn't exactly help matters. England tried to batter Ireland into submission in the second half but our lads stood firm and were oonly breached once (if it was even a try at all).

We showed flashes of the rugby we're capable of with the two Tommy Bowe tries.

Overall I'm satisfied with the result if not entirely wowed by the performance. 

Offline cos_my_mother's a_scouser

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #895 on: February 28, 2010, 10:56:15 pm »
Agree completely.

It was never going to be a wide-open contest, and the conditions didn't exactly help matters. England tried to batter Ireland into submission in the second half but our lads stood firm and were oonly breached once (if it was even a try at all).

We showed flashes of the rugby we're capable of with the two Tommy Bowe tries.

Overall I'm satisfied with the result if not entirely wowed by the performance. 


It was clearly a try - you could see the egg was grounded on the replays. 

Ireland are an average side (not that England aren't) with a good winger in bowe who was the only difference between the sides.  Plus they are an ageing side with very little talent coming through.

Offline ItchySpoons

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #896 on: February 28, 2010, 11:06:58 pm »


It was clearly a try - you could see the egg was grounded on the replays. 

Ireland are an average side (not that England aren't) with a good winger in bowe who was the only difference between the sides.  Plus they are an ageing side with very little talent coming through.


Reactionary bollocks..we went the whole of last year unbeaten and won a Grand Slam. We suddenly aren't an average side and as was said above Twickenham is a bloody hard place to get a win. As for this 'ageing side with no talent coming through'...

Cian Healy - 22
Stephen Ferris - 24
Jamie Heaslp - 26
Tomas O' Leary - 26
Johnny Sexton - 24
Tommy Bowe - 26
Keith Earls - 22
Andrew Trimble - 25
Rob Kearney - 23

Fair enough BOD is 31..D'arcy 30 and POC 30.

On the bright side I agree the England try was certainly grounded.
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Offline cos_my_mother's a_scouser

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #897 on: February 28, 2010, 11:25:26 pm »

Reactionary bollocks..we went the whole of last year unbeaten and won a Grand Slam. We suddenly aren't an average side and as was said above Twickenham is a bloody hard place to get a win. As for this 'ageing side with no talent coming through'...

Cian Healy - 22
Stephen Ferris - 24
Jamie Heaslp - 26
Tomas O' Leary - 26
Johnny Sexton - 24
Tommy Bowe - 26
Keith Earls - 22
Andrew Trimble - 25
Rob Kearney - 23

Fair enough BOD is 31..D'arcy 30 and POC 30.

On the bright side I agree the England try was certainly grounded.

Owned - indeed is was ignorant reactionary bollocks.

Okay I retract the ageing side thing. I think I was concentrating on BOD, darcy, o'connor, hares and o'gara who have been your best players for the past decade - didn't realise the rest of the team were so young!

Your not average but what's happened in the past year? I'm not getting sucked in by the French hype. I think you were very poor in that game and against England you were, dare I say, poor but finished the chances (you were gifted) well - although I accept the point that it's difficult to win at Twickenham.

I will be interested to see whats happens (performance wise) in the ireland wales match.



« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 11:28:52 pm by cos_my_mothers a_scouser »

Offline MBL?

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #898 on: February 28, 2010, 11:40:08 pm »

Ireland are an average side (not that England aren't) with a good winger in bowe who was the only difference between the sides.  Plus they are an ageing side with very little talent coming through.
:lmao Tell that to U20's who are the best group of young players we have ever produced and funnily enough beat World cup finalists England (who are a bigger and older side)  in their own back yard on friday night.

Offline ItchySpoons

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #899 on: February 28, 2010, 11:50:04 pm »
Fair play for admitting you were wrong about some stuff mate. As far as this year..well it's only really the French game where we were poor. We were doing well in the 20 or so minutes and were very unlucky not to go ahead when D'arcy's chip hit the post instead of carrying over the try line. Then we got a penalty reversed after Flannery stupidly kicked out at a French player. They scored a try resulting from that penalty and then we had the sin-binning just after that. At that stage in Paris no side would stand much chance of coming back.

With regards the England game...I read the other day that there's never been more than a try between the teams at Twickenham and England have got huge physicality. They came at us hard and in wet and muddy conditions it turned into a battle. But we're a reflection of our manager and Declan Kidney's Munster were famous for staying in the trenches battling away and landing a killer blow late on. We fought and ground out the win. Losing BOD didn't help of course and I accept we made too many errors but it worked out in the end. I'm not by any stretch saying we played terrific rugby because we clearly didn't. What we did do was stand up to the challenge away from home and battled with England and scored three tries to their one. Sometimes those sort of performances are required.

We'll have to see how the Wales game turns out. Paris and Twickenham back to back were always gonna be huge challenges. It's too early to judge us this year I feel. As you mentioned it'll be much easier to decide once we've played Wales and Scotland in Dublin. At home we'll play more adventurous rugby but Kidney won't sacrifice too much of our effectiveness. It's just who we are as a team.
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Offline cos_my_mother's a_scouser

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #900 on: February 28, 2010, 11:51:07 pm »
:lmao Tell that to U20's who are the best group of young players we have ever produced and funnily enough beat World cup finalists England (who are a bigger and older side)  in their own back yard on friday night.

It's really not that funny. See the post above for my retraction of that statement.

I have openly admitted in this thread that I enjoy watching rugby but I am an ignorant bugger when it comes really knowing the ins and outs of the game.  You could say 'why post in the thread then' - I was just fustrated losing a game which I felt we deserved to win.

Offline cos_my_mother's a_scouser

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #901 on: March 1, 2010, 12:01:20 am »
Fair play for admitting you were wrong about some stuff mate. As far as this year..well it's only really the French game where we were poor. We were doing well in the 20 or so minutes and were very unlucky not to go ahead when D'arcy's chip hit the post instead of carrying over the try line. Then we got a penalty reversed after Flannery stupidly kicked out at a French player. They scored a try resulting from that penalty and then we had the sin-binning just after that. At that stage in Paris no side would stand much chance of coming back.

With regards the England game...I read the other day that there's never been more than a try between the teams at Twickenham and England have got huge physicality. They came at us hard and in wet and muddy conditions it turned into a battle. But we're a reflection of our manager and Declan Kidney's Munster were famous for staying in the trenches battling away and landing a killer blow late on. We fought and ground out the win. Losing BOD didn't help of course and I accept we made too many errors but it worked out in the end. I'm not by any stretch saying we played terrific rugby because we clearly didn't. What we did do was stand up to the challenge away from home and battled with England and scored three tries to their one. Sometimes those sort of performances are required.

We'll have to see how the Wales game turns out. Paris and Twickenham back to back were always gonna be huge challenges. It's too early to judge us this year I feel. As you mentioned it'll be much easier to decide once we've played Wales and Scotland in Dublin. At home we'll play more adventurous rugby but Kidney won't sacrifice too much of our effectiveness. It's just who we are as a team.

Good post.  It's too late to fully explain why I enjoyed reading it, but in a nutshell its given me an appreciation of what sort of game it was on Twickenham and the Irish approach to it.  In other words, I am not such a bitter Englishman after reading it!

Nice one.

Offline Regi

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #902 on: March 1, 2010, 12:15:55 pm »

Ireland are an average side (not that England aren't) with a good winger in bowe who was the only difference between the sides.  Plus they are an ageing side with very little talent coming through.

Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls, Johnny Sexton, Tommy Bowe, Stephen Ferris, Jamie Heaslip....just to name a few already established names...fuck all talent coming through there.

And underage rugby in Ireland is absolutely booming

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Offline CLOCKSPEED

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #903 on: March 1, 2010, 12:41:36 pm »



Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls, Johnny Sexton, Tommy Bowe, Stephen Ferris, Jamie Heaslip....just to name a few already established names...fuck all talent coming through there.

And underage rugby in Ireland is absolutely booming



Agree with this also at the week end the Irish under 20s beat England http://www.irishrugby.ie/21_19856.php and this is were our problems begin. Young fullback conway is another potential superstar and we do not have a vacancy in our back line at the moment. Competition for back row places is huge and if being totally honest the only real problem positions for the future is both props and scrum half.

Offline hansen6

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #904 on: March 1, 2010, 12:54:22 pm »


It was clearly a try - you could see the egg was grounded on the replays. 

Ireland are an average side (not that England aren't) with a good winger in bowe who was the only difference between the sides.  Plus they are an ageing side with very little talent coming through.
Are you having a laugh?,  Healy, Ferris, Heaslip, Kearney, Bowe and Earls are all young.

That's six out of seven versus England, We went unbeaten in 2009 and won all the competitions we entered - Six nations, Churchhill cup, Heineken Cup and Magners league - An average team in decline...



Offline hansen6

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #905 on: March 1, 2010, 01:07:08 pm »
 
I asked the question with the crowds in mind. I admit RU crowds for international are vastly superior. What I don't understand is why? The skill and speed factor in RL is far greater than RU, where strength and size rules the day it seems. I am curious as to why people seem to prefer to watch RU with this being the case.
Yes, as can be seen by the RL converts in RU who have set the world alight... People don't watch RL because it's boring.

Offline cos_my_mother's a_scouser

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #906 on: March 1, 2010, 01:22:24 pm »
Are you having a laugh?,  Healy, Ferris, Heaslip, Kearney, Bowe and Earls are all young.

That's six out of seven versus England, We went unbeaten in 2009 and won all the competitions we entered - Six nations, Churchhill cup, Heineken Cup and Magners league - An average team in decline...




Are you a bit thick?

Did you just stop reading the thread after my first post?

Offline hansen6

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #907 on: March 1, 2010, 02:03:53 pm »
Are you a bit thick?

Did you just stop reading the thread after my first post?
I had to respond to it when I saw it - fair enough on the retraction.

Offline cos_my_mother's a_scouser

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #908 on: March 1, 2010, 02:16:19 pm »
I had to respond to it when I saw it - fair enough on the retraction.

No worries, having now seen the ages of heslip, o'leary and kearney etc, I dont blame you for jumping on my post!

Offline sinnermichael

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #909 on: March 1, 2010, 05:23:30 pm »
ireland were by far the more dangerous side. england nearly ground out a win but the tries we conceded we embarassingly soft.

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #910 on: March 1, 2010, 05:33:51 pm »
having 4 sides with the best players concentrated together and with the national side taking priority has definitely helped irish rugby in recent years. In england the clubs seem to hold more power. Understandable really, it's the same with football but it doesn't benefit the national team. more knowledgeable people than me have failed to solve it though so will probably continue for a while yet.

Offline Ray K

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #911 on: March 1, 2010, 06:38:45 pm »
Good points Nick.

The centralised contracts has really worked for Ireland (the IRFU enforces a mximum number of games for player, and has told the provinces to pull certain players out of league games to comply).
The fact that the Guinness Prem is such a dog-eat-dog competition, and the relegation thing is so crippling that half the clubs are desparetely scrambling to get H Cup places, and the other half desperate to avoid relegation is hurting the quality of the competition.
If in doubt, hoof it out of your half, hope for a knock on, rely on penalties. Its the Saracens way.

Meanwhile, Irish provinces have evolved nicely - Munster try to be more expansive in their backs with the likes of Earls, Mafi, Howlett, and Leinster have become a 15 man team and not just fancy-dan backs. They're not burned out by endless Magners league games, so can peak for H Cup and 6N.
All of this, and the confidence gained by H Cup wins, has helped the Irish NT.

England on the other hand have no links to the clubs, have poor coaches (Wells in particular needs to be dumped ASAFP), and are struggling to decide even on a basic pattern of play.
Talented players are just not trusted (has James Simpson-Daniel even been given consecutive games?) and workhorses are always picked if there's a toss-up (and a big hello to Steve Borthwick).
"We have to change from doubters to believers"

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Offline Ray K

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #912 on: March 1, 2010, 08:59:17 pm »
Looking at the highlights again this evening, Armitage should be cited for a cheap shot on Sexton in the 1st try. Sexton was in the process of kicking the ball and Armitage comes and hits him with a forearm smash in the head while sexton was exposed.
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Offline Mackeroo

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #913 on: March 2, 2010, 02:41:45 am »
Looking at the highlights again this evening, Armitage should be cited for a cheap shot on Sexton in the 1st try. Sexton was in the process of kicking the ball and Armitage comes and hits him with a forearm smash in the head while sexton was exposed.


Noticed that too. He got his reward later when he hobbled off injured. Karma's a bitch.

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #914 on: March 2, 2010, 10:13:07 am »
i think these two look alike

cullen also wore number 18 on saturday

anyone else agree?
yer ma should have called you Paolo Zico Gerry Socrates HELLRAZOR

Offline DangerScouse

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #915 on: March 2, 2010, 11:29:19 am »
Most over rated side in world rugby = Ireland.  Thought that the battering they got at the hands of the French was a one off, the narrow victory today against a very average English side tells me all I need to know.  A team in decline?  thoughts please?

Clueless.

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #916 on: March 2, 2010, 11:36:54 am »
i think these two look alike

cullen also wore number 18 on saturday

anyone else agree?

A mate of mine copped that on Saturday in the pub, brought the house down.

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #917 on: March 2, 2010, 11:49:45 am »

Offline jason42

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #918 on: March 2, 2010, 12:00:34 pm »
Most over rated side in world rugby = Ireland.  Thought that the battering they got at the hands of the French was a one off, the narrow victory today against a very average English side tells me all I need to know.  A team in decline?  thoughts please?
They are certainly not over-rated, not playing well but definitely not over-rated.
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Came to this thread a bit late, but from what I've read, the real relationship trouble is not between you and your girl, but between you and a small box of Tampax. You obviously need something more substantial in your life like a huge Costco sized box of jam rags, seeing as you're such a massive fucking quim

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Re: Six Nations 2010 thread
« Reply #919 on: March 4, 2010, 07:24:54 pm »
split the RU/RL debate to a thread of it's own.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=254747.0
« Last Edit: March 4, 2010, 07:26:34 pm by Pheeny »