Author Topic: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?  (Read 67456 times)

Offline Grobbelrevell

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Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« on: November 13, 2014, 09:47:07 am »
Posted this on my blog last night. Thought i'd add it in here, in case anyone fancies a read.

Mods; as ever, feel free to merge if preferred  :wave


Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?

A little over 18 years ago, in 1996, Kenny Dalglish's title winning Blackburn Rovers team inexplicably slumped down six places into seventh. That same year, coincidentally, also saw Kevin Keegan's free-flowing Newcastle United emerge as title challengers, finishing in second place for two consecutive seasons, only to follow that up in 1998 by free-falling into thirteenth. Fifteen years later, Alex Ferguson brought the curtain down on his illustrious career as his final Manchester United team positively coasted to a 20th league crown. That same team, largely, then spent the first year of a new era under David Moyes limping to their lowest league finish in 24 years, as they ended the 2014 season in seventh. Now, whilst there was a context to each of these collapses, it cannot be argued that the sudden and comprehensive nature was surprising, to say the least.

The same can be said of this seasons Liverpool. What has become of the side who so very nearly plundered their way to a first league title in 25 years, becoming only the third in Premier League history to record a century of goals in the process? A side who scored four or more in no fewer than eleven league fixtures, and failed to find the net just twice all season. It's a myth that Rodgers' Liverpool were consistently producing the mesmeric, fluid, magnificent attacking football for which they've become associated throughout the last campaign, of course. They didn't. They evolved towards and into that. But what they - and Rodgers - were above all else, was pragmatic, and motivated - and together. It felt, for the first time in a long, long time, as though the club was as one. Owners, manager, players - and supporters. A single being with a singular aim. Unity reigned, with a determined eye focused on an ultimate prize. Questions were asked, and invariably answered. Be it a personnel change, or a systematic one; lessons were continually learned and the team on the field adapted accordingly. Backed by a fervent red tide, players and manager grew visibly in stature week on week. The end result was a collection of players hitting heights that many had never achieved previously, and some probably never expected to achieve at all, moulded into a group unwilling to accept either their own apparent deficiencies, or the limited expectations imposed on them.

Just a few months on and what we see before us has become unrecognisable. The belief and confidence that swept all before them at times last season, eroded and replaced with hesitancy and confusion. Pre-game huddles and passionate battle cries replaced with bowed heads, slumped shoulders and increasingly, what can only be described as acceptance. Not only on the field, but in the stands too. The thousands that welcomed the the team home every other week amid the kind of scenes typically reserved for returning heroes have retreated, puzzled at what they're now witnessing, swallowed by the masses on the terraces and in the pubs, now surrounded by doubt, frustration and bewilderment. The minority of unyielding pessimists, ogre like in their apparent unwillingness to experience joy, where silent for the last eighteen months, now emerge and grow ever more vocal. The kind of performances, results - and nonconstructive arguments - that are dangerously close to becoming normal once more were unthinkable last season.

As things stand, after 11 games Rodgers' Liverpool find themselves in 11th place, having amassed just 14 points. That's an average of 1.27 points per game. To put that points total into some context, it's one fewer than the disastrous Roy Hodgson managed over the same period. It's also an average that, if extrapolated over an entire season, would equate to a final total of a startling 48 points. Last season that total would have seen the Reds finish in the position they currently occupy - 11th. Comparatively, at this stage last term, after what was widely acknowledged as a slow start to the campaign, they sat second in the league on 23 points, running at 2.09 points per game. Whilst it's important to remember that landscapes can and do change very quickly in football, it's also worth noting that if we were to accept that 2 points per game typically guarantees a top four finish, and take that as the target for the season, then from this point on, in order to hit that final total they would need to start running at 2.27 points per game. To put that figure into perspective, over a full season that would equate to 87 points - one more than last seasons champions, Manchester City, managed. The league season may be just eleven games old, but the hole that Rodgers and his team are digging themselves into is growing deeper with each dropped point. Even at this early stage, it's only the equally erratic results of the expected challengers that offers hope of redemption.

So, what's changed?

As cliched as it's become, you can't begin to answer that question without first acknowledging the most obvious answer; Luis Suarez. One of the top handful of players in the world, and arguably unique in terms of his insatiable desire to win, to overlook his departure as anything other than key would be foolish. Any team in the world would miss such a player. Similarly though, to argue that it was he alone who lifted last seasons Liverpool team to new heights would be blinkered and simply untrue. It's easily forgotten that Luis Suarez missed the opening months of the last campaign, and in his absence the team still produced top four form. Equally, Luis Suarez was at the club for two and a half years prior to last season, and a year and a half prior to Rodgers, and in none of those seasons had he - or the team - produced anywhere close to that level of consistency. Indeed, they had finished those seasons - with Luis Suarez - in 8th, 7th and 6th. So whilst it's possible, even likely, that Suarez made the pivotal difference in propelling his team from Champions League contenders to within two points of the title itself, it's surely a stretch to offer his departure as the sole explanation for the alarming regression witnessed in this seasons opening months.

The attacking unit that he formed a part of, and the one which formed the basis of last seasons success, is a far more probable starting point. An attacking unit centered around speed (of both body and mind), intelligent movement, intensity and aggression. At times this season we've witnessed the bare minimum of those key facets. At others, none at all. It's been the most glaring departure from last season, without doubt. Along with the departure of Suarez, the injuries to Daniel Sturridge and the loss of form of Raheem Sterling, it's not difficult to understand the reasons for that. What is far more difficult to accept, is the predictability of the two absentees in that list, and therefore the failure by the club to act accordingly. The club had known that Suarez would leave long before he actually did, and Sturridge, historically, has been injury prone. So why then, the club failed to acquire a striker with similar attributes - attributes upon which last seasons success was based upon - was as frustrating as it was unfathomable. This wasn't the club failing to replace Suarez' output, per se, as some argued; it was a failure to insure the attributes that the two key components of the attacking unit brought to the team as a whole. Whilst Rickie Lambert made sense as a third choice alternative in the context of a wider, fluid attacking collective, he makes far less as an immobile back-up to a similarly static and ill suited second choice, in Mario Balotelli. Neither are bad players, but equally, neither are suited to the system in which they've been placed and combined, they raise some valid questions over the clubs summer recruitment policy in that area.

The issues raised by this shift in core attacking attributes is not limited to the attacking players alone either. They can be witnessed in the current struggles of almost every other area of the team. From hesitant midfielders, due to a distinct lack of movement and options ahead of them, through to an increasingly nervous defensive unit, finding themselves under the kind of pressure in possession that a mobile, aggressive attack can (and did) help to negate. Without that speed, movement and intelligence up front, teams are far more likely to compress the space ahead of them, and we saw a perfect example of that from Chelsea on Saturday. Compare that to their approach back in April, for example. Defensive resolve wasn't and isn't the forte of Rodgers' Liverpool, we all know that. Unfortunately, right now the stuttering nature of other areas of the team are allowing it to be simultaneously highlighted, underlined and emboldened, whereas last season it was marginalised. Strengths have been negated and weaknesses exposed. This isn't the only problem of course, there are several other factors to consider too. The quantity of players coming into the club, in particular, was always likely to require patience as a necessity. Ever more so when the age and relative experience of the majority of those signings are taken into account. Some new to the country as well as the club. The bulk of the summer transfer activity looked very positive back in September, and it may well yet prove to be. Now is certainly not the time to be passing final judgement. Add to that the vastly increased schedule with the addition of Champions League football, and with it, the reduced amount of time available for Rodgers to impose his ideals upon those new to the group. Where previously he had clear weeks to prepare for each game, now he finds himself with two or three days, at most.

In effect, there are several questions being asked of Brendan Rodgers right now. Some of which he won't have faced previously. Some of which he's evidently struggling to answer. The pragmatism displayed over the duration of his time at the helm has been largely missing so far this season, replaced by the kind of stubbornness rarely witnessed. The persistence with a struggling Balotelli as a lone forward. The shifting of Raheem Sterling to the right hand side, leaving him isolated and ineffective. The continual refusal to manage an ageing Steven Gerrard in an intelligent manner, and what can only be described as the 'Hodging' of Jordan Henderson. It's all rather frustrating, and somewhat baffling, especially when you stop to consider just how impressively Brendan Rodgers had constructed a system to tease the very best from each of these players only a matter of months ago. Only, that system was of course purpose built, primarily, to impose that fluid, mobile attack upon the opposition. The same attacking unit that is currently not present. As a result we've seen Rodgers adapt his system once more, particularly in recent weeks, culminating in far more of a focus on solidity and organisation and that, if nothing else, continues to display a willingness from the manager to learn and adapt. Arguably though, removing the focus from the strength of the team and placing it on the weakness is the wrong approach. Revisiting the values that underpinned all that was good about last season would be far more preferable, and more than likely, far more fruitful. The return of Daniel Sturridge and with him, some of the pace, mobility and intelligence that is so clearly lacking, will undoubtedly help to make that possible. The January transfer window provides an opportunity to prevent this same situation arising again. It's an opportunity that cannot be missed.

Equally, in these difficult opening few months there have been questions asked of those massed together on the terraces and in the pubs, and just like Rodgers, many are struggling for answers. What has become of the fervent red tide, so visible last season. Inspirational and intimidating in equal measure, yet suddenly conspicuous in it's absence, engulfed by doubt and preoccupied with infighting. Just like Rodgers, perhaps a recollection of what made last season so special would be beneficial. Eleven league games ago Brendan Rodgers was two points shy of becoming a league winning manager. The first in twenty five years for the club. This team, largely, was the one that came so close. The thousands that lined Anfield Road with a sea of flags, banners and pyro are still here. Perhaps everyone just needs to take a step back and remember just what made last season possible, and so special. Manager, players - and supporters.

http://grobbelramble.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/just-what-is-going-wrong-at-liverpool/
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Offline gamble

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 10:51:34 am »
Last year BR said the results were due to hard work on the training ground, preparation and practise. So I reckon we just can't manage with the extra games plus all the new signings haven't helped. The team is worse because we are lacking suarez and sturridge. The boys that have come in aren't as good as those who have left so it's no surprise really is it.

Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2014, 11:14:00 am »
Last year BR said the results were due to hard work on the training ground, preparation and practise. So I reckon we just can't manage with the extra games plus all the new signings haven't helped.

I agree that both have undoubtedly had an impact. In truth, they were always likely to as well. The additional games is something that is very new to a number of our players, as well as the manager himself. That's a steep learning curve and it was always going to be interesting to see how he handled that. Right now, it looks as though he's struggling with how to juggle his resources and maintain (or even spark) momentum on multiple fronts. Particularly if he's simultaneously being required to adjust his setup to cater for injuries and adapt the balance of the team in the process. It's something that he'll need to get a handle on, and sooner rather than later, ideally.

The boys that have come in aren't as good as those who have left so it's no surprise really is it.

Not sure I agree with that statement. Balotelli/Suarez aside, who has come in as a considerable step down on what we had last season? Is Moreno a step down on Cissokho? Is Lallana (or Markovic) a step down on Aspas? A number of the summer signings also arrived as a replacement for no-one, but rather, simply an addition to what was a paper thin squad. I stand by my assessment that now is no time to be passing judgement on these players either. Some are struggling, but there are also evident reasons for that. Tactically, positionally, some are not being helped. Overall they've come into a team that is struggling to relocate it's identity and confidence. The manager appears to be struggling with that too. When those players are also attempting to adapt to a new country and culture (as well as the club and city) then I think it's fair to say that they - and the team - need a level of patience, regardless of any frustration.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 11:17:13 am by Grobbelrevell »
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2014, 11:19:10 am »
Really good stuff mate.  Well done.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2014, 11:25:31 am »
Six extra games up to early December, SIX!

It's another excuse.
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Offline Fiasco

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 11:32:26 am »
Six extra games up to early December, SIX!

It's another excuse.

It's not just 6 games in isolation though is it? It's the amount of training sessions that have been missed and tailored, less time to specify sessions and plans for one team. Planning in football is not always about the here and now, it's weeks and months ahead when you are talking about a season that runs from August to May.

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2014, 11:37:31 am »
It's not just 6 games in isolation though is it? It's the amount of training sessions that have been missed and tailored, less time to specify sessions and plans for one team. Planning in football is not always about the here and now, it's weeks and months ahead when you are talking about a season that runs from August to May.

Just out of interest how do other teams cope?
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Offline L666KOP

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2014, 11:42:20 am »
Excellent piece Grob.

Whilst the players we have brought in are better than the ones we appear to have replaced, the only position in the first eleven we have strengthened is LB.

13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2014, 11:45:45 am »
Just out of interest how do other teams cope?

It's a culmination of factors though, isn't it? Yes, the congested fixture list is undoubtedly playing a part, but it's not the only factor. As I tried to highlight, I think the breakup of the core element of last seasons team (i.e. the attack), and the effect that has had throughout has been the single biggest contributory factor in our current struggles. There's also the sheer number of new faces and the often unavoidable settling in period. All of this has then led to Rodgers attempting to adjust our approach with these factors in mind, and it's led to us losing sight of what made us the team that we were last season. And it's that that we need to rediscover.

I don't think there's a shortcut to this. How long did it take the players at the club when Rodgers arrived to adapt and begin to look comfortable within the system that was being imposed? It stands to reason therefore, that a set of new players will most likely need a similar amount of time to do the same. When they do, and we reinsert those key values into our attacking unit (i.e. Sturridge), then perhaps we'll begin to see the fluency and confidence that we're lacking right now.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2014, 11:48:42 am »
Last year BR said the results were due to hard work on the training ground, preparation and practise. So I reckon we just can't manage with the extra games plus all the new signings haven't helped. The team is worse because we are lacking suarez and sturridge. The boys that have come in aren't as good as those who have left so it's no surprise really is it.

Liverpool managers need to be able to cope with the demands of European football. We've spent enough money to have a strong enough squad to cope.

if you want a week between games then you're in the wrong job. Time to learn fast how to deal with it. Last season we were performing well once a week. This season we are performing badly two or three times a week. You need to cope with it.

transfer market failings is the big factor aside from that.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2014, 11:54:15 am »
Liverpool managers need to be able to cope with the demands of European football. We've spent enough money to have a strong enough squad to cope.

if you want a week between games then you're in the wrong job. Time to learn fast how to deal with it. Last season we were performing well once a week. This season we are performing badly two or three times a week. You need to cope with it.

transfer market failings is the big factor aside from that.

Exactly. It seems to me that we're making excuse after excuse, all of which can be called into question when examples from other clubs are considered.
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Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 11:56:51 am »
Liverpool managers need to be able to cope with the demands of European football. We've spent enough money to have a strong enough squad to cope.

I think you're looking at that from a very detatched, simplistic perspective though. This isn't Football Manager. Forget the price tags, or even the ability, what they all are first and foremost are human beings. Some will struggle to adapt to new surroundings and cultures and that, surely, has to be accepted and accounted for. Do you think you would hit the ground running if you were simultaneously dropped into a country in which you didn't speak the language, didn't know anyone and didn't understand the culture? I know I wouldn't. Perhaps we shouldn't have gone for such an active transfer window. Perhaps we should have staggered our approach a little more. That would perhaps be a fair criticism (with the benefit of hindsight, of course). Perhaps though, these players will come good, given the time that they were always likely to need. I do agree though, that in the interim Rodgers will need to find a solution that accomodates for this.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 11:58:40 am by Grobbelrevell »
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Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 12:05:36 pm »
Forget the price tags, or even the ability, what they all are first and foremost are human beings. Some will struggle to adapt to new surroundings and cultures and that, surely, has to be accepted and accounted for. Do you think you would hit the ground running if you were simultaneously dropped into a country in which you didn't speak the language, didn't know anyone and didn't understand the culture? I know I wouldn't.

Dušan Tadić, Serbian midfielder
Graziano Pellè, Italian striker
Toby Alderweireld, Belgian defender
Sadio Mané , Senegalese midfielder

New manager.

Team position - second
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Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 12:10:17 pm »
Dušan Tadić, Serbian midfielder
Graziano Pellè, Italian striker
Toby Alderweireld, Belgian defender
Sadio Mané , Senegalese midfielder

New manager.

Team position - second

What Southampton have achieved so far has been astonishing given their situation, i'm with you on that. It's also not an entirely relevant comparison though. Are they competing in the Champions League in midweek (for the first time for a number of our players - and manager), for example? On top of that, it's worth adding some context to their current success; They've played just two teams from last seasons top 7 so far. Those two teams were ourselves and Tottenham - and they lost both. I think we'll get a far greater impression of how Southampton will fare this season over the next couple of months, as they find themselves up against the stronger sides in the league.
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Offline L666KOP

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 12:13:00 pm »
What Southampton have achieved so far has been astonishing given their situation, i'm with you on that. It's also not an entirely relevant comparison though. Are they competing in the Champions League in midweek (for the first time for a number of our players - and manager), for example? On top of that, it's worth adding some context to their current success; They've played just two teams from last seasons top 7 so far. Those two teams were ourselves and Tottenham - and they lost both. I think we'll get a far greater impression of how Southampton will fare this season over the next couple of months, as they find themselves up against the stronger sides in the league.

New manager helps in this case as well. You've not got a few players coming in to an established set up/system. Everybody is learning something new. It's a fresh start.

If I had to bet, I'd wager had Pochettino remained they'd be worse off than they are now.
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Offline BigAl24

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 12:13:00 pm »
Dušan Tadić, Serbian midfielder
Graziano Pellè, Italian striker
Toby Alderweireld, Belgian defender
Sadio Mané , Senegalese midfielder

New manager.

Team position - second

Not every situation is the same though is it mate.
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Offline the_red_pill

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 12:43:30 pm »
Was thinking about this the other day after we saw the Chelsea match. I saw the Chelsea players working extremely hard and although I don't have much time for their club, it was commendable- especially if you consider the fact they had less rest than we did and even played a CL game a day later than our "second string".

One idea came up- Rodgers has always made clear to the players that we should not be fazed by the pressure or the occasion, but to only "focus on the performance and the result will follow". He said it in the dressing room before the first game in that documentary, he has said it many times in post-match and pre-match confies hence. He's made it a mantra last season.

I haven't heard it once this season- "All that's needed is to focus on your own performance and the results will follow".
I agree it's not as holistic as that, but performance-wise, we are just on a lower level. I understand we aren't the same team we were last seaon, but we should at least mathc Newcastle's performance-level by now- match Chelsea's performance(and you could argue, we should have exceeded it).


Someone put it rather sarcastically, but spot-on in the Chelsea HT-thread the other day:

None of the players in this team has ever won a second ball in their life!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 12:47:46 pm by the_red_pill »
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In such a sumptuous festival of shite, I wouldn't be so quick to pick a winner..

But he'd make the shortlist

Offline McMahon

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 12:45:54 pm »
Obviously our defence is shaky, but for me we didn't add a midfield goal scorer. Our midfield players just aren't hitting the target. Take Sturridge and Suarez goals away hence where we find ourselves today.

Offline GlenJohnson2

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 12:53:32 pm »
Remove TWO world class strikers from any team and they'll struggle. Doesn't help our defence is in shambles mind.
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You should literally be skinned for such a fucking daft answer :o

Offline SmallwoodRed

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2014, 01:18:47 pm »
Remove TWO world class strikers from any team and they'll struggle. Doesn't help our defence is in shambles mind.

Pretty much sums it up really. I think people are looking into it too deeply.

Last season we had the best 2 strikers anywhere in the league by a good distance. Our defending was no better than this season but the team knew we could cope with those two in the team. SAS gave the team a confidence and authority even when things were going against us.

This season we have replaced them with Ballotelli and occasionally Lambert. Lambert has done ok for what you would expect and Ballotelli has been uttely useless. Lets not pretend otherwise.

The effect of that is now starting to have a catastrophic effect on the rest of the team in terms of eroding confidence. They know going into each game that the opposition will score (they did most of the time last season) and that the forwards wont score. Just imagine playing behind Ballotelli now when last season you had Suarez and Sturridge up there. Its no small wonder the team looks f pissed off. I would be wouldnt you?

Its not going to solve all our problems but you look at the difference in the whole body language of the team when Sturridge returns. I think it will be telling. Shame is that its probably too late and big big questions should be being asked about why this was able to happen.

Offline Caston

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2014, 01:22:09 pm »
Pretty much sums it up really. I think people are looking into it too deeply.

Last season we had the best 2 strikers anywhere in the league by a good distance. Our defending was no better than this season but the team knew we could cope with those two in the team. SAS gave the team a confidence and authority even when things were going against us.

This season we have replaced them with Ballotelli and occasionally Lambert. Lambert has done ok for what you would expect and Ballotelli has been uttely useless. Lets not pretend otherwise.

The effect of that is now starting to have a catastrophic effect on the rest of the team in terms of eroding confidence. They know going into each game that the opposition will score (they did most of the time last season) and that the forwards wont score. Just imagine playing behind Ballotelli now when last season you had Suarez and Sturridge up there. Its no small wonder the team looks f pissed off. I would be wouldnt you?

Its not going to solve all our problems but you look at the difference in the whole body language of the team when Sturridge returns. I think it will be telling. Shame is that its probably too late and big big questions should be being asked about why this was able to happen.

The biggest problem was getting in Balotelli and Lambert who both play in a completely different style to Suarez and Sturridge, and probably comes down to lazy scouting and planning. We've spent 120m and we are all hoping Sturridge will save our season!

Offline SmallwoodRed

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2014, 01:27:22 pm »
The biggest problem was getting in Balotelli and Lambert who both play in a completely different style to Suarez and Sturridge, and probably comes down to lazy scouting and planning. We've spent 120m and we are all hoping Sturridge will save our season!

Agreed, but even bigger problem is that Ballotelli is utterly shit. People keep talking about styles - where does getting constantly caught offside, giving the ball away, shooting from stupid positions instead of threading a pass, paying no attention to what is going on around you part of a 'style'.
I will get accused of bashing mario but the plain and simple facts of the matter are that the team is playing with 10 men when he plays. The effect that has on the team morale will be devastating and its clear to see on their faces.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2014, 01:27:32 pm »
the only thing going wrong  is we haven't gained enough points, we do that you and win a few games (Momentum is everything) , then we can consign threads like this to the backburner.
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Offline BigAl24

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2014, 01:29:01 pm »
Agreed, but even bigger problem is that Ballotelli is utterly shit. People keep talking about styles - where does getting constantly caught offside, giving the ball away, shooting from stupid positions instead of threading a pass, paying no attention to what is going on around you part of a 'style'.
I will get accused of bashing mario but the plain and simple facts of the matter are that the team is playing with 10 men when he plays. The effect that has on the team morale will be devastating and its clear to see on their faces.

Nothing like a bit of support eh?

He's not 'utterly shit' at all. Show me where in his career he has played regularly as a lone striker? He isn't one. He wouldn't have played for the Milans, City, us or Italy if he was shit. Sturridge will improve him tenfold, he looked much more dynamic against Spurs.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2014, 01:32:31 pm »
Agreed, but even bigger problem is that Ballotelli is utterly shit. People keep talking about styles - where does getting constantly caught offside, giving the ball away, shooting from stupid positions instead of threading a pass, paying no attention to what is going on around you part of a 'style'.
I will get accused of bashing mario but the plain and simple facts of the matter are that the team is playing with 10 men when he plays. The effect that has on the team morale will be devastating and its clear to see on their faces.

posts like this give nothing to any discussion, rather than the abusive one liner explain in detail why, and not some media throwaway words like above, because i am seeing a lad being asked to plain a style of football alien to him and trying harder than i have ever seen do before to do it.

I venture nobody at City or Milan saw him tracking back to help the defence as much as he is doing now, as for accused of bashing him well given your poor diatribe that is exactly what you have just done!
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Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2014, 01:37:24 pm »
Really enjoyable that. Touches on what timbo has been saying regarding our business in the summer.

What you said pretty much nails everything, if you didn't see it before then you do now. We're in November and it's evident we are where we are through poor business in an attacking senses and a stubborness tactically.

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2014, 01:38:05 pm »
It's not just 6 games in isolation though is it? It's the amount of training sessions that have been missed and tailored, less time to specify sessions and plans for one team. Planning in football is not always about the here and now, it's weeks and months ahead when you are talking about a season that runs from August to May.

Excuse me but the seasons have always run from August to May. Preseason training always started in July and in the time before SKY there were 42 league games per season plus FA Cup and then the introduction of the League Cup and then any European games if we Qualified, all this with a squad of 14/15 players. I remember a reporter asking Mr.Shankly for his team for the following Saturday,He replied "Same as last season".Training in pre season was always hard until either of those men(Shankly or Paisley) decided it was time to just maintain the level of fitness the players had reached, then training would change to just warm ups and then 5 aside football but only two touch and then one touch. The players really enjoyed it and worked very hard, believe me the training ground used to ring with laughter.
Mr Shankly insisted that the players went to Anfield first and leave their cars there and get changed.The reasoning behind this was that he felt the team were spending too much time away from Anfield, he wanted them to feel more at home there, instead of visiting it every fortnight . They would then go to Melwood by bus do their training, when it finished they would all drink hot tea and then get back on the bus to Anfield, by the time they got to Anfield their sweating had cooled down and then they showered and changed had lunch and then off home. Obviously anyone with a knock would receive treatment.

We were hardly unsuccessful during the reign of both men 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 04:52:11 pm by vicgill »
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Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2014, 01:41:46 pm »
The biggest problem was getting in Balotelli and Lambert who both play in a completely different style to Suarez and Sturridge, and probably comes down to lazy scouting and planning.

I agree with the first part entirely. The second part needs some context adding to it though, I think. How many people thought Lambert, at £4m, was a decent signing at the time? I know I did. There was logic to him coming in, as a third choice striker. That's a position in the squad that really isn't easy to fill. I mean, which decent striker comes in, in full knowledge that they're sitting on the bench for the most part? Lambert had very good output in the two seasons he's been in the Premier League, and he's a Red. That's not to say that he deserves any preferential treatment, but what you knew was a pretty safe bet, was that he'd be happy to fulfil that third choice striker role, and he'd give his utmost when given the opportunity. He had also, lets not forget, looked good as part of a fluid Southampton attack - with that energy and movement around him, linking very well with the likes of Lallana and Rodriguez. When he suddenly became a back-up to a player of a similar style, in Balotelli - neither of which, as individuals, fit in with the system deployed last season, well, that's where the question marks with Lambert arose for me, and that was all down to the signing of Balotelli as the second choice striker, rather than the signing of Lambert himself.

On Balotelli there is also a context to bear in mind though. The club had clearly gone all out for Sanchez and that hadn't happened. Remy was clearly the back-up and (although this still baffles me) that didn't happen either. It was at this point that alarm bells start to ring, because where was the follow up target at that point? There certainly didn't appear to be one. Which left the club - as Rodgers as good as stated a few weeks back - approaching the end of the transfer window with a simple choice; Balotelli or no-one? They've been hammered for signing Balotelli from a lot of people, but just imagine the uproar if they'd signed no-one. Balotelli, if nothing else, represented low risk investment. We should, at the very least, make the majority of our money back on him if he doesn't work out. The real question for me though, is why we allowed ourself to end up in a position where we had no plan. Suarez was on his bike, everyone at the club and beyond knew that, and so it was imperitive that we addressed the second striker position. It's not the first time we've appeared to throw all of our eggs in one basket (Mkhitaryan anyone) and then be left looking rather amateurish though. That's the lesson that needs to be learned. One thing you could say for Commolli was that he'd never be left without. He'd line deals up for three or four players simulatneously, and that way, if one (or even two) fell through, you were still at an advanced stage with your third and fourth choices. To fail to plan ahead in that manner once is forgiveable. Beyond that it becomes a problem.
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Offline mkingdon

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2014, 01:49:57 pm »
Surely nobody can think that Aspas, Alberto, Cissokho and Moses are any better than Markovic, Lallana, Moreno and Lambert?

Of course Suarez if a huge miss, and Balotelli's poor start has compounded that, plus of Sturridge being made of glass makes all that worse, but as a squad we have better players. BR needs to find a way now to make them play together better than we have so far.

I'm confident we'll get better soon.

Offline SmallwoodRed

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2014, 01:50:03 pm »
posts like this give nothing to any discussion, rather than the abusive one liner explain in detail why, and not some media throwaway words like above, because i am seeing a lad being asked to plain a style of football alien to him and trying harder than i have ever seen do before to do it.

I venture nobody at City or Milan saw him tracking back to help the defence as much as he is doing now, as for accused of bashing him well given your poor diatribe that is exactly what you have just done!

it wasnt a one liner - I gave examples of his shortcomings and I stand by them. I am entitled to my opinion of his contribution and apparent ability and effort. I have seen little to suggest he is trying particularly hard or is that bothered and I see that is affecting the team. Anyone who denies that I think is wrong

Offline L666KOP

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2014, 01:59:16 pm »
Surely nobody can think that Aspas, Alberto, Cissokho and Moses are any better than Markovic, Lallana, Moreno and Lambert?

Of course Suarez if a huge miss, and Balotelli's poor start has compounded that, plus of Sturridge being made of glass makes all that worse, but as a squad we have better players. BR needs to find a way now to make them play together better than we have so far.

I'm confident we'll get better soon.

No, they're not.

And yet after spending 120m only one of our purchases is in the side on 'merit' as an improvement. And that's our LB.

Is that good business, or not ?
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2014, 02:06:17 pm »
No, they're not.

And yet after spending 120m only one of our purchases is in the side on 'merit' as an improvement. And that's our LB.

Is that good business, or not ?


must be good business it went up from around 100m to 120m  is that inflation or what?
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Offline mkingdon

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2014, 02:09:34 pm »
No, they're not.

And yet after spending 120m only one of our purchases is in the side on 'merit' as an improvement. And that's our LB.

Is that good business, or not ?

I think I'll give it more than a dozen or so games before I make a final decision on that.  :o

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2014, 02:11:20 pm »
must be good business it went up from around 100m to 120m  is that inflation or what?

It's approaching 120 I think ?

I remember the good old days where we bought 1 or 2 players and stuck them in the reserves for 6 months before they even got near the first team....

We don't even have that benefit anymore. Players have no opportunity to play themselves into form.
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Offline L666KOP

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2014, 02:18:17 pm »
I think I'll give it more than a dozen or so games before I make a final decision on that.  :o

So out of all the players we bought, bearing in mind that Brendan said he was only wanting players "That slot straight in" you think we have done well ?

I don't need anymore games to see that something is broken. Do we honestly think that the pieces that don't work are going suddenly all come together ?

It won't be long before a Journalist uses the quotes Brendan uttered last season regarding Spurs, I'm intrigued as to what his answer will be.

We're relying on Daniel Sturridge to come in and make everything right in the world again, I've seen people use his return to justify persisting with the same defence, and MF, because once we have him back everything will work again. That young man has the weight of Merseyside on his shoulders. We are relying on an injury prone striker to save our season.

Honestly, it's laughable.
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline diegoLFC7

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2014, 02:18:57 pm »
Signing young players who never played a competitive match against signing top class players who have a proven track record.
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Offline vicgill

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2014, 02:19:31 pm »
It's approaching 120 I think ?

I remember the good old days where we bought 1 or 2 players and stuck them in the reserves for 6 months before they even got near the first team....

We don't even have that benefit anymore. Players have no opportunity to play themselves into form.


If I remember rightly Alan Hansen spent a long time in the reserves and we paid over 100,000pounds for him
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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2014, 02:25:25 pm »
If I remember rightly Alan Hansen spent a long time in the reserves and we paid over 100,000pounds for him

It always sticks in my mind that we'd sign a player, then come Saturday I'd wonder where he was, sometimes I'd even forgotten about him and then he'd appear and be ever present.
They had the opportunity to impress the gaffer back then, regular 'competititve' football at least once a week.

Now, it's a couple of hours training a day, and a Carling cup game if you're lucky.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2014, 02:47:46 pm »
It's a culmination of factors though, isn't it? Yes, the congested fixture list is undoubtedly playing a part, but it's not the only factor. As I tried to highlight, I think the breakup of the core element of last seasons team (i.e. the attack), and the effect that has had throughout has been the single biggest contributory factor in our current struggles. There's also the sheer number of new faces and the often unavoidable settling in period. All of this has then led to Rodgers attempting to adjust our approach with these factors in mind, and it's led to us losing sight of what made us the team that we were last season. And it's that that we need to rediscover.

I don't think there's a shortcut to this. How long did it take the players at the club when Rodgers arrived to adapt and begin to look comfortable within the system that was being imposed? It stands to reason therefore, that a set of new players will most likely need a similar amount of time to do the same. When they do, and we reinsert those key values into our attacking unit (i.e. Sturridge), then perhaps we'll begin to see the fluency and confidence that we're lacking right now.

Good points. This is why I believe we'll manage to get back on track later this season. It will take some time, but we'll get there. There are quite a few pieces that we need to fit together and it's going to take time. All of that is fair.

What I don't understand is how we could fail to understand it before the season began. When we sat there and made our plans for the summer and the new season, how could we miss it? How could we miss that it was a World Cup year, with extra short preparation time? How could we then think let's bring in new players for virtually every position on the field? Those two factors alone, that's enough to see a real risk in buying lots of players. Risk being that it could take time for things to gel. The more players, the longer.

I don't think we could have missed it. A friend of mine is a coach. It took him five minutes of discussion to spot the problem with time and new arrivals, so it's not this super advanced stuff. It appears we took the risk. And we probably were prepared to risk our season, even a CL spot, because we think we'll see the benefits later on.

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Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Just what is going wrong at Liverpool?
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2014, 03:24:06 pm »
Good points. This is why I believe we'll manage to get back on track later this season. It will take some time, but we'll get there.

I agree. I think the comparisons that some have made with Rodgers' first season may well prove to be pretty accurate and it's my belief that we'll gain momentum approaching and heading into the second half of the season. The hope is that we don't leave ourselves an insurmountable task in the mean-time. It'll be interesting to see whether we look to do any business in January as well, which of course played a big part in pushing us on in Rodgers' first year. Perhaps Sturridge could almost play that role once again.

What I don't understand is how we could fail to understand it before the season began. When we sat there and made our plans for the summer and the new season, how could we miss it? How could we miss that it was a World Cup year, with extra short preparation time? How could we then think let's bring in new players for virtually every position on the field? Those two factors alone, that's enough to see a real risk in buying lots of players. Risk being that it could take time for things to gel. The more players, the longer.

Like you, I don't think we did miss it. I think the club took a calculated risk in that regard with one eye on the medium-long term. My biggest question though, was still the lack of contingency planning for the second striker that was quite clearly the key acquisition for the club to make over the summer. In that regard they really backed themselves into a corner needlessly. I laughed at Arsenal the previous summer when they pursued Suarez, followed by Higuain, followed by Ozil. Where was the logic in those three consucutive targets? Did they have a particular skillset in mind, or were they simply looking at 'good' players, with how they would actually knit into the wider collective simply an afterthought? That was certainly how it appeared, and I found it daft. I still do. And yet, that's exactly the situation we forced ourselves into with Mario Balotelli.
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