Topic: Separating the Art from the Artist

[Seebab]

Not wanting to criticise but just wondering why the "hate" for Arcade Fire when allegations are against Win Butler only? Is there more news that I am not aware of surrounding the others?

[RedSince86]

Didn't know about John Peel, just read Capon talking about it on another thread, had a quick read of an article and came to this thread and see he's being mentioned here.

But you hear some strange stories around that time in the 60's and 70's, just so fucked up.

I remember listening to a Joe Rogan podcast with Louis CK a few months back and they mentioned Elvis met his wife to be at 14, they also mentioned that Jerry Lee Lewis arrived in the UK for a tour with his 13 year old GF. 

I have read a few accounts of Jimmy Page in the 70's dating a Groupie who was 14 years old and he took her on tour with him in the USA while she was still underage.

 

[Brian Blessed]

I’d say all of human history up until the last decade or two is fucked up regarding underage girlsp. I remember when bill Wyman and a 15 year old were a thing. It was a salacious story, but fine. I’m not sure he was ever prosecuted.

[GreatEx]

if in doubt, just listen to everything for free on youtube and chill out

[RedSince86]

if in doubt, just listen to everything for free on youtube and chill out

I saw that DSOTM remastered 50th anniversary was YouTube. Gave it a listen throughout with my headphones, brilliant that they uploaded that. Has almost 4 million views in 2 months.

I have the album but couldn't resist listening to it right there and then on my laptop while reading the live chat feature that was going on the time it premiered.

I love YouTube music stuff, i watched a Pixies 1991 concert in Brixton on there the other day. Fantastic.

Nirvana live at the Paramount 1991 is probably easily the best live music video on YouTube.

Talking Heads concert in Hollywood is up there as well.

[LanceLink!!!!!]

What YouTube and Spotify really need is some sort of nonce filter.

[Sir Capon of Debaser]

just read Capon talking about it on another thread

What did that tit have to say?

[Shankly998]

As long as you don't financially support them and are clear in pointing out their flaws I don't see an issue in separating art from the artist. Wagner a vile nasty anti-semite undoubtedly created some of the most beautiful music ever to exist it would be a tragedy if people didn't experience it in their lives. Wagner is like a metaphor for the human race really capable of incredible beauty and ugliness within the same person. Stephen Fry did a documentary exploring this very topic if you'd like a watch.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/hlmaEpw7oz0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/hlmaEpw7oz0</a>

[liverbloke]

As long as you don't financially support them and are clear in pointing out their flaws I don't see an issue in separating art from the artist. Wagner a vile nasty anti-semite undoubtedly created some of the most beautiful music ever to exist it would be a tragedy if people didn't experience it in their lives. Wagner is like a metaphor for the human race really capable of incredible beauty and ugliness within the same person. Stephen Fry did a documentary exploring this very topic if you'd like a watch.

...or simply - don't listen

your life will be exactly the same

[Sheer Magnetism]

...or simply - don't listen

your life will be exactly the same

Don't listen to or interact with any art made by anyone who's done something you morally disapprove of? I'd say your life would be far, far poorer.

[liverbloke]

Don't listen to or interact with any art made by anyone who's done something you morally disapprove of? I'd say your life would be far, far poorer.

nope

[Kenny's Jacket]

Don't listen to or interact with any art made by anyone who's done something you morally disapprove of? I'd say your life would be far, far poorer.

I tend to agree, however it depends on your tastes I suppose and your moral compass

[Buck Pete]

Don't listen to or interact with any art made by anyone who's done something you morally disapprove of? I'd say your life would be far, far poorer.

Yep,

I’ll happily cut out Gary Glitter and Rolf Harris from my life but going by some views I’ve read on RAWK alone recently, I’d also have to eradicate Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Smiths and Pink Floyd from my life.

[ToneLa]

Not wanting to criticise but just wondering why the "hate" for Arcade Fire when allegations are against Win Butler only? Is there more news that I am not aware of surrounding the others?

Are you suggesting I use AI to break their music into stems and remix them to have non-Butler elements?

It would be nice if they didn't tour with Mr Butler

I don't have a huge Arcade Fire shaped hole in my life. 'Sleeping Is Giving In' a lyric now gone

Yeah well I am awake

[liverbloke]

Yep,

I’ll happily cut out Gary Glitter and Rolf Harris from my life but going by some views I’ve read on RAWK alone recently, I’d also have to eradicate Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Smiths and Pink Floyd from my life.

no you won't

some people will continue accepting the immoral actions and others won't

it's up to you solely to judge what you deem is acceptable for your own pleasure

i have 5 brothers who i love dearly, but if any one of them turned out to be a paedophile then i would disown him without hesitation

others couldn't/wouldn't - it's all down to the individual

[AndyMuller]

I’m still bumping Ignition when I’m poolside on holiday.

[Sheer Magnetism]

no you won't

some people will continue accepting the immoral actions and others won't

You think listening to music by someone constitutes 'accepting' everything immoral they've ever done? Listening to the Beatles or the Stones for example constitutes acceptance of domestic abuse or the corruption of minors? Listening to instrumental music by a composer who's been dead for centuries means you're supporting their views on society?

[GreatEx]

...or simply - don't listen

your life will be exactly the same

How does that compute? Life is all about your experiences. The less you experience, the less you live. Don't listen to Wagner. Don't look at the stars. Don't travel. Don't have a family. At what point does it make a difference?

[liverbloke]

You think listening to music by someone constitutes 'accepting' everything immoral they've ever done? Listening to the Beatles or the Stones for example constitutes acceptance of domestic abuse or the corruption of minors? Listening to instrumental music by a composer who's been dead for centuries means you're supporting their views on society?

if you personally can separate then great for you

[liverbloke]

How does that compute? Life is all about your experiences. The less you experience, the less you live. Don't listen to Wagner. Don't look at the stars. Don't travel. Don't have a family. At what point does it make a difference?

you're being silly - how does don't look at the stars or don't have a family have anything to do with immoral artists?

silly argument

[Crosby Nick]

How does that compute? Life is all about your experiences. The less you experience, the less you live. Don't listen to Wagner. Don't look at the stars. Don't travel. Don't have a family. At what point does it make a difference?

I thought you meant the X Factor legend for one horrible moment there.

[Sheer Magnetism]

if you personally can separate then great for you

You're avoiding the question, as you did with GreatEx's. You are personally free to interact with anything you want however you want, but you've repeatedly suggested others should feel some moral duty to do the same, so I'll ask again: Do you think listening to music by someone constitutes 'accepting' everything immoral they've ever done?

[liverbloke]

You're avoiding the question, as you did with GreatEx's. You are personally free to interact with anything you want however you want, but you've repeatedly suggested others should feel some moral duty to do the same, so I'll ask again: Do you think listening to music by someone constitutes 'accepting' everything immoral they've ever done?

for goodness sake - i've been open all along - it's down to the individual

don't do as i do - do as you want

use your own moral judgement

i don't care what you him or the other guy does - it's all up to you and your own set of morals

i don't need to answer your question - the answer is there

problem with this thread is that people are getting hung up that their own listening/viewing pleasure is being questioned - maybe they feel guilt?

it's all about being selfish - you continue to listen then that's your moral choice

nuff said really

[Black Bull Nova]

Yep,

I’ll happily cut out Gary Glitter and Rolf Harris from my life but going by some views I’ve read on RAWK alone recently, I’d also have to eradicate Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Smiths and Pink Floyd from my life.

It is where you draw your own personal line. It is obvious that anyone would struggle to listen to Gary Glitter singing 'Do you wnna be in my gang', listen to Rolf going on about 2 little boys or tying his Kangaroo down or watching Jim'll fix it now. Everyone has a moral line and it's usually different as well but those three are well past that line for most people.


As for everything else it's a personal decision but I think it helps to know the full story as much as is possible to help make that decision. I have my list in my head of those I avoid because it vexes me to take pleasure/education from some people. I do not try to stop other people from consuming what they want (unless the way they do it impinges on my space in an uncomfortable way) but I would not be averse to pointing the other side of these artists if necessary like I did with Picasso on here, despite Guernica.

[Sir Capon of Debaser]

I thought you meant the X Factor legend for one horrible moment there.

[GreatEx]

you're being silly - how does don't look at the stars or don't have a family have anything to do with immoral artists?

silly argument

No, you just didn't understand it.

You said that whether one chooses to listen to Wagner or not would make no difference to their lives. But his music has moved many people in profound and positive (or sometimes negative) ways - so it has made a difference in their lives. Therefore I'm asking where you draw the line between experiences that make a difference to one's life and those that don't?

[liverbloke]

No, you just didn't understand it.

You said that whether one chooses to listen to Wagner or not would make no difference to their lives. But his music has moved many people in profound and positive (or sometimes negative) ways - so it has made a difference in their lives. Therefore I'm asking where you draw the line between experiences that make a difference to one's life and those that don't?

don't patronise me mate

his music has obviously moved you so you do what you like - i honestly couldn't give a shit - it's not for me to tell you what to do

and the questions both you and sheer are asking - you are really asking yourself those questions - it's plain to see - you are both using me as a vessel for your own self-judgement

analogy

i bring in a cake and give me and you a slice - we both enjoy it

the next day i find out that the man that baked that cake was a child rapist

i feel like being sick

i don't know - maybe you feel like being sick also, but would like the recipe because you enjoyed the cake

it's up to you to judge yourself on your moral principles

it's not for me to do that

why is that so hard to understand?

[Black Bull Nova]

don't patronise me mate

his music has obviously moved you so you do what you like - i honestly couldn't give a shit - it's not for me to tell you what to do

and the questions both you and sheer are asking - you are really asking yourself those questions - it's plain to see - you are both using me as a vessel for your own self-judgement

analogy

i bring in a cake and give me and you a slice - we both enjoy it

the next day i find out that the man that baked that cake was a child rapist

i feel like being sick

i don't know - maybe you feel like being sick also, but would like the recipe because you enjoyed the cake

it's up to you to judge yourself on your moral principles

it's not for me to do that

why is that so hard to understand?

I'd be a lot less happy if I found out he cleaned his arse with his hand. That said, it brings up another issue for debate, if you have enjoyed something, can you 'un-enjoy' it at a later date when you find something out about it, slightly different question but I suspect that lies in the area of regret/guilt/PTSD etc.

[liverbloke]

I'd be a lot less happy if I found out he cleaned his arse with his hand. That said, it brings up another issue for debate, if you have enjoyed something, can you 'un-enjoy' it at a later date when you find something out about it, slightly different question but I suspect that lies in the area of regret/guilt/PTSD etc.

definitely - its context has changed to you personally

wagner - a white supremacist anti-semite with nazi tendencies - what's not to love?

oh yeh - his music

but that's cool - if you can still enjoy it then do so - i am not your judge - you are - (not aimed at you, bull)

just when moving in your seat when enjoying an orchestral performance of his works - try and not raise a single arm in your excitement - funnily enough, like this

[GreatEx]

don't patronise me mate

his music has obviously moved you so you do what you like - i honestly couldn't give a shit - it's not for me to tell you what to do

and the questions both you and sheer are asking - you are really asking yourself those questions - it's plain to see - you are both using me as a vessel for your own self-judgement

No. You are completely ignoring the questions I'm asking, which are separate to discussions you're having with others. I am questioning the idea that the experiences you don't have make no difference to your life. But you seem to be caught up in other arguments and concluded that I am a Wagner nut who doesn't have your strong moral core but "you do you". So don't whine about being patronised, especially after dismissing people's posts as silly - if you're going to dish it out you can damn well take it!

[liverbloke]

No. You are completely ignoring the questions I'm asking, which are separate to discussions you're having with others. I am questioning the idea that the experiences you don't have make no difference to your life. But you seem to be caught up in other arguments and concluded that I am a Wagner nut who doesn't have your strong moral core but "you do you". So don't whine about being patronised, especially after dismissing people's posts as silly - if you're going to dish it out you can damn well take it!

gosh - you're loco mate

i refer the honourable gentleman to the answers i gave earlier

[Black Bull Nova]

Perhaps we could rename this thread 'Separating the GreatEx from the Liverbloke'

[liverbloke]

Perhaps we could rename this thread 'Separating the GreatEx from the Liverbloke'

  - depends on your morals

[Elmo!]

I came across this thread on Twitter, and it's obviously not on the same level as Glitter/Lost Prophets etc, but Screamadelica is possibly my all time favourite album, and this really makes me feel uneasy about the band and not sure I can feel the same way about Primal Scream after reading it.

https://twitter.com/MichaelAHann/status/1666490368429285404

[elbow]

I came across this thread on Twitter, and it's obviously not on the same level as Glitter/Lost Prophets etc, but Screamadelica is possibly my all time favourite album, and this really makes me feel uneasy about the band and not sure I can feel the same way about Primal Scream after reading it.

https://twitter.com/MichaelAHann/status/1666490368429285404

As twattish as that is from Gillespie and Innes, that's fairly common backstabbing behaviour in the music business no?

Didn't Pink Floyd make Rick Wright a session player?

[Rob Dylan]

As twattish as that is from Gillespie and Innes, that's fairly common backstabbing behaviour in the music business no?

Didn't Pink Floyd make Rick Wright a session player?

I think it's made worse by the fact that they knew what a state he was in mentally and financially yet still did all of this, including selling their back catalogue without telling him and ensuring he got nothing from it. All the while Bobby Gillespie makes a big thing about being a 'socialist'. They treated Denise Johnson pretty badly as well.

[So… Howard Philips]

As twattish as that is from Gillespie and Innes, that's fairly common backstabbing behaviour in the music business no?

Didn't Pink Floyd make Rick Wright a session player?

The music business is renowned for dodgy business dealings and corrupt practices. The majority of the big names in the 60s were soundly ripped off so it comes as no surprise these practices are still current.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I think it's made worse by the fact that they knew what a state he was in mentally and financially yet still did all of this, including selling their back catalogue without telling him and ensuring he got nothing from it. .All the while Bobby Gillespie makes a big thing about being a 'socialist'. They treated Denise Johnson pretty badly as well.

Good post, most bands have a scenario where the song writers get more, but this went a bit beyond anf Gillespie really gives off a different vibe to how hes behaved in this situation.

Weve only heard one side of the story though

[rob1966]

The music business is renowned for dodgy business dealings and corrupt practices. The majority of the big names in the 60s were soundly ripped off so it comes as no surprise these practices are still current.

Clare Torry got paid £30 for the vocals on The Great Gig In The Sky when really she was a co-writer of the song, seeing as she came up with the vocals on the fly. Don't think they ever disclosed how much she finally got when it went to court about 30 years later

[ToneLa]

If you go looking for a list of bands who divide royalties equally you'll find a short list

Honorable mentions to REM

Then you look at The Smiths, which is like famously unbalanced

I feel like the music industry itself being unfair - it's often a seedy business - isn't news to a lot of people

Plenty of scummy financial behavior out there to be found