Topic: David Amess MP stabbed and killed* News updates only.

[TepidT2O]

When democracy is replaced by violence we all lose.

[killer-heels]

When democracy is replaced by violence we all lose.

Lets see how this all plays out in terms of whether there are changes made in the ways MP interact with the public. Maybe there will be some changes as its a Tory MP that got killed.

Ultimately though the political temperature has been deliberately driven up by MP’s.

[Wabaloolah]

A couple of pages binned.

A man was brutally stabbed to death. Thats the story.

We are considering binning all political threads because they are so fucking toxic. This is another perfect example   I’ll leave it open for news updates.

I personally think that's sensible. I used to be a Moderator on a Welsh rugby forum and we banned political threads for the very reason you mentioned, it just got too toxic and issues between members festered and rolled over onto other threads.

In the end the guy who ran the board just binned it completely

[Sangria]

Lets see how this all plays out in terms of whether there are changes made in the ways MP interact with the public. Maybe there will be some changes as its a Tory MP that got killed.

Ultimately though the political temperature has been deliberately driven up by MP’s.

It's not just a matter of the difference between a Labour and Tory MP being killed. One was killed on campaign, the other in his surgery.

[Red-Soldier]

It's not just a matter of the difference between a Labour and Tory MP being killed. One was killed on campaign, the other in his surgery.

Not sure what your point is here.

Jo Cox was about to attend her surgery, wasn't she, or had it just finished??

I'm finding it hard to grasp how these pointless semantics are relevant??  They were both brutally killed whilst out in their constituencies.

[TSC]

We are considering binning all political threads because they are so fucking toxic. This is another perfect example   I’ll leave it open for news updates.

That would be a shame IMO.  Granted, the Labour thread gets dominated periodically with to and fro between ‘left’ and ‘centre’ which is a case of fiddling while Rome burns given the large elephant in the room which is the current administration in power.

In terms of incompetence this is the worse administration in living memory and I include Thatcher’s various admins in that.  A Trump type leader, lurching from one disaster to another, underpinned by lies and corruption, there’s barely a day goes by without some shenanigans worth highlighting.

With regards to the thread subject, of course it’s horrific what happened.   The fact it appears to have been perpetrated by an Islamic extremist indicates terrorism remains an ongoing challenge.

[Sangria]

Not sure what your point is here.

Jo Cox was about to attend her surgery, wasn't she, or had it just finished??

I'm finding it hard to grasp how these pointless semantics are relevant??  They were both brutally killed whilst out in their constituencies.

It's easier to arrange security in an enclosed area. If action is taken after this, it will be because it's easier to prevent a repeat of these circumstances. It won't be because one's Tory and the other's Labour.

[Clayton Bigsby]

The issue is clearly a difficult one as has been alluded to elsewhere in the thread. No one here is saying that the man was a saint, or that they agreed with everything he advocated or supported. But he was brutally stabbed to death in his role as an MP, democratically representing his constituents. All that was said about him in a positive sense was that he was a "decent man". No one really went any further than that. Most here will have no knowledge of him personally at all beyond his voting record, a Wikipedia page and the odd bit of news reporting about him.

Firstly, it should be possible to distinguish the personal from the political, although some people will find that hard. My mother is conservative, as are some of her friends, as are some of mine. I still consider them decent people (perhaps not ALL of her friends, but that's not the point...) He was seemingly liked and respected across the political spectrum, and again that's as much as anyone said really. No one was trying to whitewash him as a politician, the focus was correctly on how awful it was for someone to be brutally murdered in these circumstances.

Secondly, if you can't say anything nice about someone, maybe it's best not to say anything at all on the day they were stabbed to death. This doesn't mean your views on the wider issues being discussed here aren't relevant, important, significant etc. It's simply to show the appropriate level of respect and to reflect on what happened today and what it represents, both in relation to our democracy, society as a whole, and to the family of David Amess.

Perfectly put.

[Commie Bobbie]

We are considering binning all political threads because they are so fucking toxic. This is another perfect example   I’ll leave it open for news updates.

Have to be honest, I think that may be an extremely wise move - however I feel that the Covid thread for example is/was extremely informative especially at the beginning - perhaps that could go into the Boozer perhaps, Mods?

[classycarra]

Maybe there will be some changes as its a Tory MP that got killed.

If there's changes it'll likely be because of cross-party support. I think all MPs can agree that their safety should be improved. And hopefully it will be now, instead of continuing with the status quo (at least in part to abate the public who whinge about MPs pay/costs)

I don't really get your 'since it's a Tory' point. I think if you go and look at the last fifty years in England there've been five MPs murdered and four of them were Tory.

Then you also have the murders at the Brighton Tory conference in 1984. Stephen Timms (Labour) was stabbed but survived an attack from an islamist. Then there was the attack on Parliament in 2017 by another islamist who said it was to do with the (Tory) governments actions in the middle east.

All I mean to say is, the failure to prevent this murder is highly unlikely to be anything to do with inaction because the last MP was Labour (which is what I took to be your implication).

Perfectly put.

Totally agree.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

That would be a shame IMO.  Granted, the Labour thread gets dominated periodically with to and fro between ‘left’ and ‘centre’ which is a case of fiddling while Rome burns given the large elephant in the room which is the current administration in power.

In terms of incompetence this is the worse administration in living memory and I include Thatcher’s various admins in that.  A Trump type leader, lurching from one disaster to another, underpinned by lies and corruption, there’s barely a day goes by without some shenanigans worth highlighting.

With regards to the thread subject, of course it’s horrific what happened.   The fact it appears to have been perpetrated by an Islamic extremist indicates terrorism remains an ongoing challenge.

Yeah.  The politics threads can be useful as many posters here have access to direct info / experiences due to the location.  Sure,  people have to sift through crap,  but perhaps mod it in such a way as to cut out empty ideological debates,  what happened 60 years ago or how a politician didn't use exactly the right terms in the right order with the right tone. Only look at what can be done.  The UK needs to prioritise building things,  making the most of its human capital if its to stay competitive,  wherever you turn the management of all that is always going to come down to politics.

One of the few areas many posters here may actually have something useful to share to be honest.  I'd rather see this,  even at its toxic worst,  as there could be substance,  then what you (generally speaking)  read about China or Palestine today. 

Obviously if its not worth the modding hassle it's understandable.

[Commie Bobbie]

I was going to set up a separate thread akin to the thread on How the States got to where they are currently, but with an end point of how we get back to some level of sanctity - its arguable that the two nations have gone step by step in the same direction in recent times though.

[John C]

I was going to set up a separate thread akin to the thread on How the States got to where they are currently, but with an end point of how we get back to some level of sanctity - its arguable that the two nations have gone step by step in the same direction in recent times though.

That's not an option unfortunately Bobbie, we've seen that film many times before and there's the same ending each time.

[oldfordie]

I was going to set up a separate thread akin to the thread on How the States got to where they are currently, but with an end point of how we get back to some level of sanctity - its arguable that the two nations have gone step by step in the same direction in recent times though.

Couldn't agree more. maybe not the thread to go into it further but there's a growing movement in this country which is influencing millions. all influenced by what has happened in the US, sadly it could turn out bad for the Labour party.
Wining the so called Red wall back is important but they may struggle to keep Labour support in many seats in years to come.

[Red-Soldier]

We are considering binning all political threads because they are so fucking toxic. This is another perfect example   I’ll leave it open for news updates.

That would be a shame. I've enjoyed the political threads during my time here, granted, the Labour threads get a bit sketchy now and again, but generally, I think they're fine.

[So… Howard Philips]

Not sure what your point is here.

Jo Cox was about to attend her surgery, wasn't she, or had it just finished??

I'm finding it hard to grasp how these pointless semantics are relevant??  They were both brutally killed whilst out in their constituencies.

And Stephen Timms was stabbed in his own office by a young women, not an obvious threat.

It is all part of a rising tide of violence against those working for the public. Have you been to an A&E recently? Better security than an airport. Firemen being stoned when putting out bonfires. The list is depressingly endless.

[jonnypb]

Lets see how this all plays out in terms of whether there are changes made in the ways MP interact with the public. Maybe there will be some changes as its a Tory MP that got killed.

Ultimately though the political temperature has been deliberately driven up by MP’s.

There’s been Tory and Labour MP’s killed before and have things changed? Someone has lost their life here and people still feel the need to have political digs ffs 

Awful thing to happen and it just beggars belief as to what goes through someone’s mind to do this to someone.

[killer-heels]

There’s been Tory and Labour MP’s killed before and have things changed? Someone has lost their life here and people still feel the need to have political digs ffs 

Awful thing to happen and it just beggars belief as to what goes through someone’s mind to do this to someone.

Its not about political digs but last time an MP got killed it was in the midst of a hyper referendum campaign where the temperature was dialled up to 100. Once the winning side got what they wanted very little was done to help address what happened to Jo Cox.

We can skirt round the issue if you want but things happening after it effects different people is certainly a thing.

[west_london_red]

And Stephen Timms was stabbed in his own office by a young women, not an obvious threat.

It is all part of a rising tide of violence against those working for the public. Have you been to an A&E recently? Better security than an airport. Firemen being stoned when putting out bonfires. The list is depressingly endless.

Disagree. Yes there’s rising threats of violence against people in some professions including politicians, but assuming this act is related to Islamism then the motivation is very different to pricks throwing stones at firemen or threatening medical professionals for administering vaccinations.

[oldfordie]

This was done just hours before Jo Cox was murdered

Yep, Ive heard the excuses, how it was a real picture and not the same picture the Nazis used to incite rage, boll.. the intention was clear, the aim was to incite, I still think Frottage should of been jailed for that picture.
Anna Soubry went through hell for a few years, many of our politicians should hang their heads in shame over the way they hounded her while her life was being seriously threatened,
Soubry was talking about Johnson last night, she said Johnson was told "Words have consequences" in parliament in a period when MPs lives were being threatened. how he had to stop the incendiary language as it is putting everyone in danger, Johnsons reply was HUMBUG.
It's going to take a brave MP to bring this all up next week but I hope it happens, Johnson will no doubt argue this is not a time to be playing politics and it has nothing to do with what happened to Amess, I would disagree, this is the time to reflect on how our politicians stirred up anger to win the publics backing.

[Andy82lfc]

Agree with having some of these political threads banned as to be honest I haven’t got a clue what is ok and not ok to post anymore. Had a post deleted that shown breaking news from the Guardian so if that’s not acceptable but bad mouthing a dead MP is then I’d prefer just to stay clear of it anyway to be honest.

[So… Howard Philips]

Disagree. Yes there’s rising threats of violence against people in some professions including politicians, but assuming this act is related to Islamism then the motivation is very different to pricks throwing stones at firemen or threatening medical professionals for administering vaccinations.

It's a spectrum of violence. And pricks threatening medical professionals for administering vaccines is bad but medical staff have to deal with actual violence.

My point is that, at one time, the only public servants having to deal with violence were police and prison officers. Now anyone is fair game.

[rob1966]

Yep, Ive heard the excuses, how it was a real picture and not the same picture the Nazis used to incite rage, boll.. the intention was clear, the aim was to incite, I still think Frottage should of been jailed for that picture.
Anna Soubry went through hell for a few years, many of our politicians should hang their heads in shame over the way they hounded her while her life was being seriously threatened,
Soubry was talking about Johnson last night, she said Johnson was told "Words have consequences" in parliament in a period when MPs lives were being threatened. how he had to stop the incendiary language as it is putting everyone in danger, Johnsons reply was HUMBUG.
It's going to take a brave MP to bring this all up next week but I hope it happens, Johnson will no doubt argue this is not a time to be playing politics and it has nothing to do with what happened to Amess, I would disagree, this is the time to reflect on how our politicians stirred up anger to win the publics backing.

It's a hate crime pure and simple.

The prosecution in the Jo Cox case believed that the atmosphere surrounding the referendum contributed to the decision to murder her. The talk at the time was all about how immigrants would invade the UK, raping the women, committing crime, stealing all the jobs. He was already obsessed with the Far Right and Nazis, the politicians and their media whipped up the frenzy, they were all to blame.

[oldfordie]

It's a hate crime pure and simple.

The prosecution in the Jo Cox case believed that the atmosphere surrounding the referendum contributed to the decision to murder her. The talk at the time was all about how immigrants would invade the UK, raping the women, committing crime, stealing all the jobs. He was already obsessed with the Far Right and Nazis, the politicians and their media whipped up the frenzy, they were all to blame.

Yeah that point needed to be made but that's letting Frottage off the hook imo. it's the gutter tactics used to incite rage in Farages poster, that poster wasn't about EU FOM. it was scaring the anti Muslim supporters into believing we are being flooded with this sort of immigration and we can't stop it. 

[Alan_X]

News updates only. I understand the point that Rob is making but we don't know whether it is relevant to Amess's murder.

It's very easy to just say that it's all to do with the polarisation of politics, but there's a possibility that this is Islamic-inspired terrorism and unrelated to domestic issues.

I'm not going to delete the posts and responses but please keep it to news updates only until we know more about the motive of the killer.

Thanks.

Locked again overnight.