Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[LiamG]

He's already tied to Wales isn't he? In which case we can be more confident in the reasons why he's been called up.

Is wales youngest cap ever i think? so he'd been called up before yes

[phil236849]

He's already tied to Wales isn't he? In which case we can be more confident in the reasons why he's been called up.

Yes, for once we don't need to be suspicious of these countries which are not the England national football team, that bastion of good manners and decency.

[dakid]

I think he and FIFA disagree, but whatever makes you happy

Well actually Fifa do not disagree. Fifa rules clearly state that he could not play for Wales because he is not Welsh. However he can play for Wales because his grandfather (not Ben) is Welsh. Note the difference.

The fact that he was born to two English parent and in England means he is English but whatever makes you happy.

*I am neither nationality so couldnt care less who he plays for but would prefer him to play for Wales. I believe it will be best for his Liverpool career.

[sminp]

Yes, for once we don't need to be suspicious of these countries which are not the England national football team, that bastion of good manners and decency.

I'm not suspicious mate, I just wondered if we were going to have a load of people banging on about Wilson and Wales in the same way they did for Woodburn. I personally couldn't give a shit who these guys play for, it's their lives and I hate international football anyway.

[phil236849]

Well actually Fifa do not disagree. Fifa rules clearly state that he could not play for Wales because he is not Welsh. However he can play for Wales because his grandfather (not Ben) is Welsh. Note the difference.

The fact that he was born to two English parent and in England means he is English but whatever makes you happy.

*I am neither nationality so couldnt care less who

Well actually Fifa do not disagree. Fifa rules clearly state that he could not play for Wales because he is not Welsh. However he can play for Wales because his grandfather (not Ben) is Welsh. Note the difference.

The fact that he was born to two English parent and in England means he is English but whatever makes you happy.

*I am neither nationality so couldnt care less who he plays for but would prefer him to play for Wales. I believe it will be best for his Liverpool career.

he plays for but would prefer him to play for Wales. I believe it will be best for his Liverpool career.

How are they both English parents if the grandfather is Welsh. There seems a bizarre Welsh denial in the air.  If Ben woodburn says he is Welsh and can satisfy the tests, what is the point of this pantomime "oh no you're not"

[phil236849]

I'm not suspicious mate, I just wondered if we were going to have a load of people banging on about Wilson and Wales in the same way they did for Woodburn. I personally couldn't give a shit who these guys play for, it's their lives and I hate international football anyway.

Fair dos, the whole debate is ridiculous, and never occurs in relation to players representing England

[capt k]

How are they both English parents if the grandfather is Welsh.

his parents where born in England, and not Wales.

[lamonti]

his parents where born in England, and not Wales.

Jeez I hate to weigh in on this interminably stupid debate, but if you're born in one country to parents of another country, do you not think that it would be possible that you would identify with the nationality of your parents? National identity is literally impossible to draw definitive lines around, but FIFA drew lines somewhere because they had to. BW is Welsh by the only measure that matters, which is FIFA's.

Good on Ben and Harry for getting into the squad... I hope they get tonked on Friday

[capt k]

Jeez I hate to weigh in on this interminably stupid debate, but if you're born in one country to parents of another country, do you not think that it would be possible that you would identify with the nationality of your parents?

of course i can, seen it firsthand..But his question was   "How are they both English parents if the grandfather is Welsh. "
thats alls i was answering, not the validity of the players call up

[Dougle]

By the looks of it we (Rep Of Ireland) will be looking for Wales to loan us a few players to make up the numbers on Friday night so you never know, he  may end up playing in green !

[Baraka]

Wilson and woodburn gonna tear it up for Wales in the future 😃

[MBL?]

By the looks of it we (Rep Of Ireland) will be looking for Wales to loan us a few players to make up the numbers on Friday night so you never know, he  may end up playing in green !

Late call up for McAuley and Masterson incoming.

[iamnant]

Staggering how people don't realise how little depth Wales have in footy terms and how they've always given early debuts to players to get them settled into the set up. Gareth Bale made his debut at 16 and Giggs at 17. Woodburn might get a sub appearance if he's lucky and he's 17.

With Simon Church injured - Wales' 4th choice attacker - Ben Woodburn was called up as our 6th option in attack. He's behind Bale, Vokes, Robson-Kanu, Tom Lawrence (on-loan at Ipswich) and Tom Bradshaw (Barnsley) - 1 of the top players in world footy, 2 benched Prem strikers for mid-table clubs and 2 Championship players. Why people keep insisting this is about 'keeping him from playing for England' I'll never know.

With Tom Lawrence out injured, again there isn't much choice and having impressed in the U21s and being such an exciting talent, Harry Wilson was always next in line for a call up. He would have been ahead of Woodburn but hasn't had the 1st team experience that Ben has had this season.

[Dim Glas]

Harry Wilson called into the Wales squad

which kinda shows that Wales are a bit thin on striking talents, and I don't mean that as a dig at Harry Wilson

I hope both of them carry on developing and end up being regular starters in the Wales set up in good time.

[jillcwhomever]

Late call up for McAuley and Masterson incoming.

Don't forget Kelleher, who is an excellent goalie prospect.

[phil236849]

his parents where born in England, and not Wales.

And if he can be Welsh from a grandfather, so can the grandfather's offspring

[plura]

And if he can be Welsh from a grandfather, so can the grandfather's offspring

Got a question that just popped up in my head, if Woodburn were to have kids born in England would they be able to represent Wales one day?

[jillcwhomever]

It seems that Klopp is not very happy about Woodburn getting called into the Wales squad this early.

Klopp expected a call from Coleman over Woodburn's Wales call-up

Liverpool boss says there are now two managers responsible for gifted teenager

Jurgen Klopp says he was “surprised” that Chris Coleman didn’t bother phoning him prior to naming Liverpool’s Ben Woodburn in the senior Wales squad.

The Reds boss, who has been keen to shield the gifted teenager from the spotlight, only learned about Woodburn’s inclusion when his maiden call-up was made public last week.

The 17-year-old attacker, who was an unused substitute at the Etihad Stadium on Sunday, had previously been part of Wales’ Under-19s set-up, but was elevated to the senior ranks by Coleman after just seven first-team appearances for Liverpool.

Asked if he had spoken to Coleman about Woodburn, Klopp said: “Actually, I was surprised about this.

“I don’t know exactly how it’s normal here. This should not be a criticism, but usually when you call up a player, a 17-year-old player, I thought it would be possible to call me.

“I’m not sure if he knows him well. He didn’t play in the team so far for Coleman I think. But no call.”

Woodburn has linked up with Coleman’s squad to begin preparations for this Friday’s World Cup qualifier against the Republic of Ireland in Dublin.

Klopp would have preferred that Woodburn was given more time to develop at club level and he’s now relying on Coleman to look after the youngest goal scorer in Liverpool’s history.

“If he stopped learning now, that would make no sense at 17,” Klopp added.

“I’m not in doubt about this. We didn’t hide him. We used him all the time. He’s a fixed part of our training. He can deal with the nomination for Wales 100%.

“It’s a little bit like my situation. As long as you give me the time, as long as we give him the time, everything will be good.

“He has to learn, he has to develop, he has to improve, all of this. That’s why I said there are now two managers responsible for him. Until now, it was only my job.”

The Football Association had hoped to convince Chester-born Woodburn to switch allegiances to England, but he’s opted to remain loyal to the country he’s represented at youth level since he was 13.

Coleman remains adamant that he picked Woodburn on merit for the senior squad rather than as a result of the speculation about his international future so he had no need to call Klopp.

“I make my own mind up about a player,” Coleman said.

“I understand when you pick young players then clubs go: ‘Oh, calm down’, but I make my own mind up.

“No matter how old he is, if he is good enough and I think he has something to offer us and can help us in this challenge then I am going to pick him. That’s no disrespect to Jurgen or anybody else who say maybe he’s not.

“He belongs to them but I’ve got a job to do for Wales and I have to pick my strongest squad. At the minute from what I have seen he belongs in our strongest 23. That’s why he is there.”

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/klopp-expected-call-coleman-over-12768780#ICID=sharebar

[Dim Glas]

I was a bit surpised that no contact was made between Wales and Liverpool, I wonder if that was the same when Wilson was called up the first time?

It's cool that Kloppo is concerned and protective though, and rightly and understandibaly so as well.  I hope Coleman is the same and respects how Liverpool are dealing with him breaking into the first team at such a young age.

[jillcwhomever]

I was a bit surpised that no contact was made between Wales and Liverpool, I wonder if that was the same when Wilson was called up the first time?

It's cool that Kloppo is concerned and protective though, and rightly and understandibaly so as well.  I hope Coleman is the same and respects how Liverpool are dealing with him breaking into the first team at such a young age.

I would agree. I said before it was obvious that Ben would be used a bit this season at least off the bench. I imagine Klopp would have liked to have had him in Tenerife but this call up has put paid to that. I have mixed feelings about it to be honest. While I'm happy for Ben, I would rather he had stayed with the club this season and developed under Klopp. There would have been plenty of time for a call-up next season rather than now. I just hope it all goes well for him.

[Samie]

[Aceldama]

Got a question that just popped up in my head, if Woodburn were to have kids born in England would they be able to represent Wales one day?

Interesting question. No they wouldn't. They could become eligible under the home nations "education clause" if they moved to Wales and spent five years in the Welsh education system before the age of 18. That rule is how Karamoko Dembele got eligible for Scotland.

[lamonti]

Interesting question. No they wouldn't. They could become eligible under the home nations "education clause" if they moved to Wales and spent five years in the Welsh education system before the age of 18. That rule is how Karamoko Dembele got eligible for Scotland.

Unless the mother was Welsh, I guess, or had a Welsh parent or parents.

[Samie]

The lad is barely out of puberty and already you're talking about kids. Is he another Sterling?

[lamonti]

The lad is barely out of puberty and already you're talking about kids. Is he another Sterling?

These hypothetical situations could be make or break man!

[vicar]

Nice headline in the Guardian about Woodburn:

Jürgen Klopp fumes at Chris Coleman over Ben Woodburn’s Wales call-up

Actual content and quote:
Asked if he had spoken to Coleman about Woodburn’s call, Klopp said: “Actually, I was surprised about this. I don’t know exactly how it’s normal here. This should not be a criticism, but usually when you call up a player, a 17-year-old player, I thought it would be possible to call me.

 

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Never really a fan of players who are called to the senior national team without having proven anything at club level or U-23 or U-21 levels.

[Joff123]

Never really a fan of players who are called to the senior national team without having proven anything at club level or U-23 or U-21 levels.

Wilson hasn't proved himself at U23 level? 

[Aceldama]

Nice headline in the Guardian about Woodburn:

Jürgen Klopp fumes at Chris Coleman over Ben Woodburn’s Wales call-up

Actual content and quote:
Asked if he had spoken to Coleman about Woodburn’s call, Klopp said: “Actually, I was surprised about this. I don’t know exactly how it’s normal here. This should not be a criticism, but usually when you call up a player, a 17-year-old player, I thought it would be possible to call me.

 

That's how I fume at people. I'm absolutely livid every time I post here.

Absolutely livid.

[Aceldama]

Wilson hasn't proved himself at U23 level? 

Not when he made his debut, but that's very old news. Given the current strength of the Welsh squad I think he merits this call up.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Wilson hasn't proved himself at U23 level? 

Wilson was 16 when he was called into the National team. Woodburn is 17. And being a member of the senior team, in my opinion, should be earned on merit and honour rather than, talent or future. And by future, I meant a football association's calling up a player with a view to tie him up with that national team and all that. This thing is more often than not, ignored. Happened with Sterling, Wilson and now Woodburn. Selecting a player into a national team, and then vehemently denying trying to tap up the young player. It should be an age of natural development, trying to strengthen their physique, get their techniques right, learn about movement, positioning, defending and pressing. That's when the club, and the national team, prosper because they have a player who has learnt his basics and is ready to serve the first team of a national team. Some people step up and some people don't. But at 16/17 you wouldn't know that. That's my point.

[phil236849]

Wilson was 16 when he was called into the National team. Woodburn is 17. And being a member of the senior team, in my opinion, should be earned on merit and honour rather than, talent or future. And by future, I meant a football association's calling up a player with a view to tie him up with that national team and all that. This thing is more often than not, ignored. Happened with Sterling, Wilson and now Woodburn. Selecting a player into a national team, and then vehemently denying trying to tap up the young player. It should be an age of natural development, trying to strengthen their physique, get their techniques right, learn about movement, positioning, defending and pressing. That's when the club, and the national team, prosper because they have a player who has learnt his basics and is ready to serve the first team of a national team. Some people step up and some people don't. But at 16/17 you wouldn't know that. That's my point.

Who would you have in the Wales squad instead of them?

[phil236849]

Interesting, shows a bit about how rated Trent and Ben are

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/257466-trent-and-ben-are-the-example-they-define-our-approach

[iamnant]

Wilson was 16 when he was called into the National team. Woodburn is 17. And being a member of the senior team, in my opinion, should be earned on merit and honour rather than, talent or future. And by future, I meant a football association's calling up a player with a view to tie him up with that national team and all that. This thing is more often than not, ignored. Happened with Sterling, Wilson and now Woodburn. Selecting a player into a national team, and then vehemently denying trying to tap up the young player. It should be an age of natural development, trying to strengthen their physique, get their techniques right, learn about movement, positioning, defending and pressing. That's when the club, and the national team, prosper because they have a player who has learnt his basics and is ready to serve the first team of a national team. Some people step up and some people don't. But at 16/17 you wouldn't know that. That's my point.

Gareth Bale made his debut for Wales at 16. Not turned out bad has he 

As I said previously in this thread, with Simon Church injured - Wales' 4th choice attacker - Ben Woodburn was called up as our 6th option in attack. He's behind Bale, Vokes, Robson-Kanu, Tom Lawrence (on-loan at Ipswich) and Tom Bradshaw (Barnsley) - 1 of the top players in world footy, 2 benched Prem strikers for mid-table clubs and 2 Championship players. Why people keep insisting this is about 'keeping him from playing for England' I'll never know. If you know of a better option then please contact Osian Roberts at FA Wales.

[phil236849]

Gareth Bale made his debut for Wales at 16. Not turned out bad has he 

As I said previously in this thread, with Simon Church injured - Wales' 4th choice attacker - Ben Woodburn was called up as our 6th option in attack. He's behind Bale, Vokes, Robson-Kanu, Tom Lawrence (on-loan at Ipswich) and Tom Bradshaw (Barnsley) - 1 of the top players in world footy, 2 benched Prem strikers for mid-table clubs and 2 Championship players. Why people keep insisting this is about 'keeping him from playing for England' I'll never know. If you know of a better option then please contact Osian Roberts at FA Wales.

This isn't even just about wales.  I would expect all of the home countries other than England to take a Liverpool 17 year old sub very seriously.

[SwordInYourGut]

This isn't even just about wales.  I would expect all of the home countries other than England to take a Liverpool 17 year old sub very seriously.

Some of the England squad is also pretty gash, mind.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Who would you have in the Wales squad instead of them?

Gareth Bale made his debut for Wales at 16. Not turned out bad has he 

As I said previously in this thread, with Simon Church injured - Wales' 4th choice attacker - Ben Woodburn was called up as our 6th option in attack. He's behind Bale, Vokes, Robson-Kanu, Tom Lawrence (on-loan at Ipswich) and Tom Bradshaw (Barnsley) - 1 of the top players in world footy, 2 benched Prem strikers for mid-table clubs and 2 Championship players. Why people keep insisting this is about 'keeping him from playing for England' I'll never know. If you know of a better option then please contact Osian Roberts at FA Wales.

To be fair, I am not from England/Wales. I am not even from the GB or UK. I can't say who is good enough to play for Wales or England.

Plus, this isn't just about Wales or England or Spain or Germany. Why should nationality play a role in determining the route of this discussion? This is about giving a young player a comfort zone until he is ready to step up. And 16/17 is not the age. It's the age where you learn about your basics, that would be your foundation for the next couple of decades. For every Gareth Bale you mention, I raise you, Adam Morgan. Development of a teenager in football should be treated with utmost caution. It's easy for the teenagers, let's say, to grow beyond their minds. And that's when they start to falter. Bale, turned out to be the best for Wales team. Doesn't mean Woodburn or Wilson might not. May each one of them eclipse their predecessors. But a caution should be exercised. Anyway, I know and understand that there are people who disagree with me on this. This is just my prerogative.

[lamonti]

To be fair, I am not from England/Wales. I am not even from the GB or UK. I can't say who is good enough to play for Wales or England.

Plus, this isn't just about Wales or England or Spain or Germany. Why should nationality play a role in determining the route of this discussion? This is about giving a young player a comfort zone until he is ready to step up. And 16/17 is not the age. It's the age where you learn about your basics, that would be your foundation for the next couple of decades. For every Gareth Bale you mention, I raise you, Adam Morgan. Development of a teenager in football should be treated with utmost caution. It's easy for the teenagers, let's say, to grow beyond their minds. And that's when they start to falter. Bale, turned out to be the best for Wales team. Doesn't mean Woodburn or Wilson might not. May each one of them eclipse their predecessors. But a caution should be exercised. Anyway, I know and understand that there are people who disagree with me on this. This is just my prerogative.

I dunno, seems like a pretty questionable approach to youth football - never try anything that's too hard for you. Keep taking Ben Woodburn out of his comfort zone, and see how he adapts. Ultimately, you try to give them the tools and the chances, but they have to make the step up themselves.

[Dim Glas]

I would agree. I said before it was obvious that Ben would be used a bit this season at least off the bench. I imagine Klopp would have liked to have had him in Tenerife but this call up has put paid to that. I have mixed feelings about it to be honest. While I'm happy for Ben, I would rather he had stayed with the club this season and developed under Klopp. There would have been plenty of time for a call-up next season rather than now. I just hope it all goes well for him.

yeah I can fully understand he'd rather Woodburn was nowhere near the senior squad yet. Personally, I'm happy though, being Welsh, and I always believe Liverpool (and therefore Wales) needs a good Welsh player in their ranks

 I think Jürgen Klopp is been clever with these comments about Coleman and Wales. He's not being confrontational, he could have been far more blunt, but he's putting it out there for all to see that he expects Wales and their coach to take care of Woodburn the way he and Liverpool are doing. IE not put too much pressure on him, not overplay him, and just remember that he's a kid, still growing both physically and mentally.

[plura]

Gareth Bale made his debut for Wales at 16. Not turned out bad has he 

As I said previously in this thread, with Simon Church injured - Wales' 4th choice attacker - Ben Woodburn was called up as our 6th option in attack. He's behind Bale, Vokes, Robson-Kanu, Tom Lawrence (on-loan at Ipswich) and Tom Bradshaw (Barnsley) - 1 of the top players in world footy, 2 benched Prem strikers for mid-table clubs and 2 Championship players. Why people keep insisting this is about 'keeping him from playing for England' I'll never know. If you know of a better option then please contact Osian Roberts at FA Wales.

Gareth Bale is one of those freaks of nature kind of talents IMO. Similar to Sterling who has great natural abilities, and will end up a pro player almost in any scenario. Sure they might end up more like Ibe than Bale. But they will still be thereabouts. For the Woodburns and others you'd expect they might need further care and room to grow in their own time into a pro player.