Topic: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell

[whiteboots]

I can't go with the hate for Alberto.

Yes, he has made a few mistakes, but he has also shown he is a good player. I trust in Klopp to play him through this patch, or rest him. But he will be back.

[BCCC]

Find all this blaming Moreno for a 'reckless tackle' a bit odd. If he had not slipped over the ball, everyone would be calling it a great tackle. It was a last ditch tackle in the box, you've got to get it right or its a pen, but sometimes you get it wrong, thats the way it is. If he hadn't tried, he'd been called a shithouse again.

When the majority of your tackles are "last ditch" then there's a deeper problem. You've got to admire his balls for having the willingness to attempt them though.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Find all this blaming Moreno for a 'reckless tackle' a bit odd. If he had not slipped over the ball, everyone would be calling it a great tackle. It was a last ditch tackle in the box, you've got to get it right or its a pen, but sometimes you get it wrong, thats the way it is. If he hadn't tried, he'd been called a shithouse again.

The tackle was completely unnecessary and wasn't last ditch. Walcott wasn't going anywhere, any decent full-back would have shown him down the outside away from goal, Moreno inexplicably dives into a tackle inside the box that doesn't need to be made.

[CHOPPER]

The one that led to the penalty was a swiped misclearance by Hendo. It went straight up in the air. Moreno then tried to clear that and gave the pen.

Later in the game, the defensive minded Clyne gets skinned 2v1 and very few pull him up for it.

Moreno is far from perfect but he's still one of the best left backs in the league. He's become a scapegoat because of his brainfarts (ones that others make too, but get away with being called out for).

It's an easy score to make it look as if you know something about the game by saying how shit our leftback is. Yet that dickhead Klopp keeps picking him. I mean, what does he know, right?

I've always hated unfairness. The criticism Moreno gets is by and large unfair so I tend to back him, YNWA and all that.

I appreciate we should always defend our players and show balance, and rightly so, however, the problem with young Alberto is not the individual mistakes per-se, but more of the mounting number of indiscretions. Bluntly put - they're becoming more of the norm than the exception.
Having said that should we give up on him? Absolutely not, we have to persevere with him, however he himself must recognise the need to improve and must burden most of the criticism, with in a round about way, so should Klopp.
The consistency of Alberto is nothing new, his last competitive game for us in Switzerland highlighted the need for either a replacement or at least some competition. Whether he(Klopp) believes that sits within our team remains to be seen - but continuing with Alberto in this form will do nothing for Moreno's confidence and nor will getting dropped, and dropped for someone who is not a recognised left back. Its a concern right now - its up to Alberto to turn that concern into reassurance and confidence. Overt to you Alberto.

[IvanDobskey]

He's just not good enough for a team with top four aspirations I'm afraid.

He has no clue defensively and will cost us too many points over a full season.

No point in being sentimental.

[BabuYagu]

Posted in the shitchat thread but I should move it here.

Here is a weird answer to your question but..... maybe the problem isn´t what he is doing but the great frequency these things are happening in very dangerous positions. If Klopp wants a risk taker at full back... someone who is going to attack the ball when it is played into our pressing traps, then telling him to be cautious tackling is counter productive. Now maybe Moreno will learn where it is too high a risk to make such tackles and stop as such. But I think at the moment, Klopp is needing to be overly positive with the player, 100%  support, simply because he is getting the opposite from fans and media. He wants Moreno to know that the only opinion that matters on him is 100% behind him. This in turn can make it harder for him to do his job as he is suddenly needing to balance the psychology aspect with the need to punish and reward. 

Good example is this. Mané played a blinder. Scored one of the best goals I´ve seen in a while. He will have absolutely no criticism coming at him, except from Klopp. Because this is the time he can do so and know it won´t negatively affect things in the future. So he goes onto the pitch, gets in his face, tells him exactly the problems he had with him. Then hugs him and walks away. Contrast that to how he approaches Moreno after the game - do you think he believes Moreno made fewer mistakes than Mané. Or performed better? And if you think the answer is no, then ask why he is doing what he does then.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Moreno is far from perfect but he's still one of the best left backs in the league.

I've listed seven better currently playing for clubs that finished above us last season. That's without even thinking about clubs that finished below us.

[keyo]

Fuck it. I like him.
If Klopp wanted rid he would be gone. Also bear in mind we are going for cover for Moreno rather than a replacement.

I am with you. And I know it is slightly irrational (just as my lack of enthusiasm over clyne is). But whilst he has issues, there are strengths that i like. He looks like he is set for a run in the side, and we will get more solid defensively and in better shape. We will see if his performances become consistently better under klopp soon enough.

[Zlen]

I got a nice little warning on Sunday for calling him stupid enough to have problem tying his own shoes.
Fair enough, let me rephrase.

He is rash, reckless and is equally susceptible to committing a serious mistake at any moment now as he was on his first day in Liverpool. Absolutely no progress there - none at all. So why is it then jumping the gun to claim he is obviously lacking in the awareness and game intelligence department? Why should it be assumed it can be trained out of him, modified, altered, when he hasn't moved an inch in improving that since he joined us? He can be a useful player, good enough for most teams - but to get where I hope we're aiming to go, he may be the difference between getting there or remaining in the hunting pack for the foreseeable.

Also, his attacking skills are not brilliant enough to justify the sheer amount of panic and nervousness he spreads through our defence.

[IvanDobskey]

He's ok going forwards, but as a defender he has to at least be competent defensively and he just isn't.

If he was scoring a lot of goals and making plenty of assists, you could maybe overlook the odd defensive blunder.

We aren't going to improve as a team if we keep players like moreno in it.

There are things I like about him, like his pace. But he's just brainless and an accident waiting to happen.

[Isaacsways]

When the majority of your tackles are "last ditch" then there's a deeper problem. You've got to admire his balls for having the willingness to attempt them though.

He's the Scott Parker of LB's... everyone mistakenly being impressed by his last ditch tackles but failing to notice that if he had any tactical awareness he wouldn't be in the position to have to last ditch everything..

[keyo]

The tackle was completely unnecessary and wasn't last ditch. Walcott wasn't going anywhere, any decent full-back would have shown him down the outside away from goal, Moreno inexplicably dives into a tackle inside the box that doesn't need to be made.

Don't agree. I yhink he absolutely was right in taking on the tackle. He got the tackle wrong. He was not tricked, or beaten to the ball, nor was he overstretching, he just missed the ball. That was a mistake and comes from him.trying to take the leather off the ball. That was his mistake. He goes in more solidly  and swings less and he makes a more solid contact with the ball and there is no foul. The swing is the issue, and that is technique.

[Isaacsways]

Don't agree. I yhink he absolutely was right in taking on the tackle. He got the tackle wrong. He was not tricked, or beaten to the ball, nor was he overstretching, he just missed the ball. That was a mistake and comes from him.trying to take the leather off the ball. That was his mistake. He goes in more solidly  and swings less and he makes a more solid contact with the ball and there is no foul. The swing is the issue, and that is technique.

Don't agree... just a plain stupid place to try a tackle, he was goal side at the edge of the 18 yard box, all he needed to do was show him the outside and force him to turn back towards his own goal. its fucking 101 defending... he can't do the basic things correctly for a defender... this is hardly the first time, christ did you not watch the Europa League final?

[Anfield89]

Posted in the shitchat thread but I should move it here.

Asking him to not lunge in, in dangerous areas never mind near the opponents corner flag is not counter productive. There has to be some technique when he is tackling, soon or later he's getting sent off or giving anyway more penalties if that type of challenge continues.

[IvanDobskey]

The guy just isn't a defender I'm afraid.

Maybe worth a go on the left wing, but I wouldn't have him anywhere near the left back position.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Don't agree. I yhink he absolutely was right in taking on the tackle. He got the tackle wrong. He was not tricked, or beaten to the ball, nor was he overstretching, he just missed the ball. That was a mistake and comes from him.trying to take the leather off the ball. That was his mistake. He goes in more solidly  and swings less and he makes a more solid contact with the ball and there is no foul. The swing is the issue, and that is technique.

Going to ground in the box is stupid and asking for trouble. If you're trying to block a shot or make a last ditch tackle then fair enough but there's absolutely no need to fly into a tackle like that when there's no immediate danger.

[SteveZissou]

He's just not good enough for a team with top four aspirations I'm afraid.

Sorry, I've corrected a few people in the past when I'm annoyed and will correct you too now. We are not going to be brainwashed the Arsenal way, and you are not going to repeat this fake ''top four aspiration'' goal. Our aspiration is to win the Premier League title. Not to finish 4th.

Don't cue 100 posts about stepping stones. That excuse doesn't wash either.

Cue mod: This is not the thread for Top 4 debate. It's for Moreno.

Yes, Moreno is not a player for a team that wants to win the league. Sorted.

[No666]

BabuYagu from the shitchat thread, pearls before swine:

"If Klopp wants a risk taker at full back... someone who is going to attack the ball when it is played into our pressing traps, then telling him to be cautious tackling is counter productive. Now maybe Moreno will learn where it is too high a risk to make such tackles and stop as such. But I think at the moment, Klopp is needing to be overly positive with the player, 100%  support, simply because he is getting the opposite from fans and media. He wants Moreno to know that the only opinion that matters on him is 100% behind him. This in turn can make it harder for him to do his job as he is suddenly needing to balance the psychology aspect with the need to punish and reward. 

Good example is this. Mané played a blinder. Scored one of the best goals I´ve seen in a while. He will have absolutely no criticism coming at him, except from Klopp. Because this is the time he can do so and know it won´t negatively affect things in the future. So he goes onto the pitch, gets in his face, tells him exactly the problems he had with him. Then hugs him and walks away. Contrast that to how he approaches Moreno after the game - do you think he believes Moreno made fewer mistakes than Mané. Or performed better? And if you think the answer is no, then ask why he is doing what he does then."

[IvanDobskey]

Our immediate aim is to get back into the top four.

I would be very happy to make fourth this season.

We are a long way from the title currently.

But back to Moreno.....

[Zlen]

Sorry, I've corrected a few people in the past when I'm annoyed and will correct you too now. We are not going to be brainwashed the Arsenal way, and you are not going to repeat this fake ''top four aspiration'' goal. Our aspiration is to win the Premier League title. Not to finish 4th.

Don't cue 100 posts about stepping stones. That excuse doesn't wash either.

God yes and yes, million times yes.
Fuck fourth, it is nothing, nothing at all, just a small consolation gift for the losers - it's not an accomplishment in itself.
You win or you don't, the rest is accounting.

[keyo]

Don't agree... just a plain stupid place to try a tackle, he was goal side at the edge of the 18 yard box, all he needed to do was show him the outside and force him to turn back towards his own goal. its fucking 101 defending... he can't do the basic things correctly for a defender... this is hardly the first time, christ did you not watch the Europa League final?

Going to ground in the box is stupid and asking for trouble. If you're trying to block a shot or make a last ditch tackle then fair enough but there's absolutely no need to fly into a tackle like that when there's no immediate danger.

Just don't agree. He was basically kicking the ball. He missed. It was poor technique and poorly executed. The fact that he got the ball clearly before walcott and before he made contact with walcott displays that. His decision was fine in that instance.

[spider-neil]

I like him.
He is rash and reckless but Klopp thinks he can educate him and so do I (think Klopp can educate him).
Raw pace
Strength
Stamina
You can't teach someone to run faster. Klopp said the moment he walked through the door that he would help and educate players. Did we doubt that? Well, the evidence is there now for all to see.

[King Klopp.]

Just don't agree. He was basically kicking the ball. He missed. It was poor technique and poorly executed. The fact that he got the ball clearly before walcott and before he made contact with walcott displays that. His decision was fine in that instance.

Why did he have to go to ground? Why did he have to swing both his legs round and swipe Walcott? Why could he have just stretched and toed the ball away out for a throw? Why is he throwing his entire body into a bloody tackle? All he had to do was kick it away. Like you said he got there first. If he just kicks the ball away with any form of bloody composure there is no issue. Instead he's swinging fucking everything at it. I couldn't believe his technique in that situation.

[AaronSingh25]

Feelings would be a lot different had we lost.

[spider-neil]

With regards to Moreno's penalty, there is a common misconception that penalties has to have 'contact'. Penalties can be given for reckless challenges even if no contact is made and Moreno's challenge was clearly reckless.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Just don't agree. He was basically kicking the ball. He missed. It was poor technique and poorly executed. The fact that he got the ball clearly before walcott and before he made contact with walcott displays that. His decision was fine in that instance.

But we've seen his technique let him down on so many occasions now and on top of his rash decision making, is why people are concerned and why some think it's a mistake not getting another left back in.

Poor decision making - going to ground in the box when there is no immediate danger.

Poor technique - when making the challenge.

When you combine those two aspects in one player it's dangerous and leads to penalties and other mistakes. As I said, put Clyne in that situation and he stands up and shows him down the line, chances are nothing comes from it.

[redmark]

There's been plenty of it. Plenty of shorthand "well the manager agrees with me cos he keeps picking him and he's Klopp so nerrr" type posts.

Moreno (seemingly) ready to be dropped 1 game in to the season, for a right footed CM, sort of runs contrary to him being fine with how things are. Also hardly endorses the theory that he's happy that Moreno is carrying out his instructions.

No, there are two clearly separate points to criticism of Moreno, which you conflated to argue that everyone supporting him is happy with both.

Is he fulfilling tactical instructions? Is he consistent enough in not making stupid mistakes?

The answer to the second is clearly not (though he did have a spell in the latter half of last season, until a couple in the final games, where he improved on that).

The answer to the former only Klopp really knows, but the lack of urgency (at least) in signing an actual starting-level left back suggests he's not regularly disobeying them. Therefore a number of people do believe that actually Moreno (tactically) is doing pretty much what Klopp asks him to do.

So for example, the penalty was a clear example of a stupid mistake, and no player is going to keep a regular place if they keep making stupid mistakes.

The first goal on the other hand is either another stupid (positional) mistake, or fulfilling Klopp's instructions (maybe, or maybe not, a fraction too early) - the only real point of disagreement on the player. No one believes continued stupid mistakes are sustainable; the disagreement is on whether bombing forward so early is his mistake or not (and by extension then, whether it's a Klopp mistake or just an acceptable risk that sometimes it'll backfire).

[BabuYagu]

Sorry, I've corrected a few people in the past when I'm annoyed and will correct you too now. We are not going to be brainwashed the Arsenal way, and you are not going to repeat this fake ''top four aspiration'' goal. Our aspiration is to win the Premier League title. Not to finish 4th.

Don't cue 100 posts about stepping stones. That excuse doesn't wash either.

Cue mod: This is not the thread for Top 4 debate. It's for Moreno.

Yes, Moreno is not a player for a team that wants to win the league. Sorted.

I agree with this. 4th should never be a target. How would that fit the Shanks quote about aiming for the stars? The aim should always be the title. We are good enough to win it with luck and things going our way. 4th is a measurement of progress after the season. Just as getting to two finals was for us last season. But it can´t be a target. Success and improvement are not the same thing. One is the target, the other a measurement of our progress towards it.

[ScubaSteve]

Moreno is a liability in defence, has been since we signed him!

Would probably be a decent left sided midfielder but he's no defender. We need a replacement ASAP

[fowlermagic]

I got a nice little warning on Sunday for calling him stupid enough to have problem tying his own shoes.
Fair enough, let me rephrase.

He is rash, reckless and is equally susceptible to committing a serious mistake at any moment now as he was on his first day in Liverpool. Absolutely no progress there - none at all. So why is it then jumping the gun to claim he is obviously lacking in the awareness and game intelligence department? Why should it be assumed it can be trained out of him, modified, altered, when he hasn't moved an inch in improving that since he joined us? He can be a useful player, good enough for most teams - but to get where I hope we're aiming to go, he may be the difference between getting there or remaining in the hunting pack for the foreseeable.

Also, his attacking skills are not brilliant enough to justify the sheer amount of panic and nervousness he spreads through our defence.

Pretty much agree with all that as when it comes to learning from his mistakes he is close to bottom of the class and his attacking prowess is hardly blessed with many assists and less goals even. For all the stick he got before he left Johnson would have done a better job as our converted left back the past season. I understand the need to shed the excess weight from the squad this summer was a priority but if there was one area on the pitch that needed serious tending to it was our defence especially left back.

[momo125]

Everyone is blaming Moreno for the penalty, but I have not seen anyone blaming coutinho for his non challenge on Walcott which afterwards put Moreno in a bad position...

This was the same for the EL final. Phil was nowhere to protect Moreno..

[Purple Red]

I've said it before on here, but I'd like to see Alberto given a go in midfield. He does those recovery challenges better than anyone I've ever seen apart from the maestro Javier Mascherano himself - would be hard for anyone to play through our midfield.
He would bring a nippiness and a bite to the midfield, and I've seen nothing to suggest that his control or passing would not be up to it.
Who knows, he could even turn out to be Kante-esque in there.

As for left back? Ladies and gents, I give you Sir Emre Can - does exactly what it says on the tin.

Epic trolling.

[Loo Pan]

I know a lot of people want us to sign a new first-choice left back, I did as well.

But, pre-season suggests that Klopp wants James Milner to be our first choice left back.

We'll have to see how that goes.

But I feel a lot calmer about the situation since making that realisation.

I don't believe that Moreno is good enough to be 2nd choice either, but if the Milner selection works out (as Klopp obviously believes that it will) then we should be able to cope until we find another left back that we want.

[SC04OCT]

Just did a player comparison matrix thing on Squaka consisting of Moreno and several other left backs from the teams that finished above us last season and Moreno didn't fair badly in most departments. Was even one of the better ones going forward. People are definitely overrating the other left backs in the League in this thread.

[007.lankyguy]

Just did a player comparison matrix thing on Squaka consisting of Moreno and several other left backs from the teams that finished above us last season and Moreno didn't fair badly in most departments. Was even one of the better ones going forward. People are definitely overrating the other left backs in the League in this thread.

What stats did you compare?

[SC04OCT]

What stats did you compare?

[na fir dearg]

BabuYagu from the shitchat thread, pearls before swine:

"If Klopp wants a risk taker at full back... someone who is going to attack the ball when it is played into our pressing traps, then telling him to be cautious tackling is counter productive. Now maybe Moreno will learn where it is too high a risk to make such tackles and stop as such. But I think at the moment, Klopp is needing to be overly positive with the player, 100%  support, simply because he is getting the opposite from fans and media. He wants Moreno to know that the only opinion that matters on him is 100% behind him. This in turn can make it harder for him to do his job as he is suddenly needing to balance the psychology aspect with the need to punish and reward. 

Good example is this. Mané played a blinder. Scored one of the best goals I´ve seen in a while. He will have absolutely no criticism coming at him, except from Klopp. Because this is the time he can do so and know it won´t negatively affect things in the future. So he goes onto the pitch, gets in his face, tells him exactly the problems he had with him. Then hugs him and walks away. Contrast that to how he approaches Moreno after the game - do you think he believes Moreno made fewer mistakes than Mané. Or performed better? And if you think the answer is no, then ask why he is doing what he does then."

I think Klopp has tried that approach now but it doesnt seem to work - looks like now he will move to the next phase by dropping him for the next game, sometimes thats the lengths a manager needs to go to, see how badly Moreno wants to play for his position

Thought Aldo made a good point about Moreno not having a veteran centre half beside him to try and educate him and talk him through the game

[BeautifulGame91]

Well it looks like Milner will be replacing him for Burnley .

Probably a good thing for Moreno as well pulling him out of the firing line .The criticism has gone to ridiculous level .

Hopefully he can use this opportunity to work on his defensive ability and come back better though somehow doubt it .

[007.lankyguy]

That's a very limited way to compare players.

[El Denzel Pepito]

That stat comparison means for little, when Moreno's biggest issue is with positioning primarily.